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Elect Chosen For Salvation

According to Calvinist doctrine are the children of the Elect automatically chosen to salvation or does God predestine some of them to hell?

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 ---CraigA on 1/11/11
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leej, No, salvation is not a "Do Nothing". God offers salvation not only to some, but to whomsoever will accept him, he is not willing that ANY should perish, but instead that every man and every child and every woman repent and become saved or elected. And salvation is participatorial, not nonparticipatorial. When a soul is drowning (in sin), and God throws that one drowning a life preserver (Christ), it is up to the drownining one to grab hold of the preserver in order to be saved, else that one will surely perish. God gave his life for each person, and as in marriage, some will say "I do", and some will say "I don't", those whom reject him are rejected by him, and those whom accept him are accepted by him.
---Eloy on 1/16/11


leej, No, salvation is not a "Do Nothing". God offers salvation not only to some, but to whomsoever will accept him, he is not willing that ANY should perish, but instead that every man and every child and every woman repent and become saved or elected. And salvation is participatorial, not nonparticipatorial. When a soul is drowning (in sin), and God throws that one drowning a life preserver (Christ), it is up to the drowning one to grab hold of the preserver in order to be saved, else that one will surely perish. God gave his life for each person, and as in marriage, some will say "I do", and some will say "I don't", those whom reject him are rejected by him, and those whom accept him are accepted by him.
---Eloy on 1/16/11


Eloy //
God does not force himself on anyone.

True, but He offers salvation only to the Elect, those to whom He has predestined from the foundation of the world.

Do you agree that salvation is wholly of God, that man is not able by his own strength to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto?
---leej on 1/16/11


//God has to put in you His Spirit to CAUSE you to will and do of His good pleasure,Then you certainly have a WILL.

While you have a 'will', that will is influenced and often controlled by God.

When you become a Christian, one essentially signs over the deed to ones life to Christ. I believe you implied that in one of your posts.

I think I can agree with the Westminster Confessions on this issue (IX, 1 Of Free Will)

God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that it is neither forced, nor by any absolute necessity of nature determined to good or evil.

Howbeit "Man by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation...."
---leej on 1/16/11


God does not force His children to worship Him
---Mark_V. on 1/15/11

If they never had a choice which is what you say of God, that it's somehow an inescapable destiny then it is forced worship.

What someone does under compulsion by another without being given a choice is not an act of their own volition. Anti-Christ will be the diametrical opposite of everything God is, where God is all inclusive Antichrist will be exclusive, where God grants choice Antichrist will not God reveals himself Antichrist hides his identity. What honor is there among thieves? God is not a thief that he should have to steal the affections of people to worship him.
---Pharisee on 1/16/11




I believe we need to understand WHERE the will of man is.

If God is working in you TO WILL and TO DO, where is He working with YOUR WILL. He's working in your CONSCIENCE. He's working in YOUR Heart.

If under the New Covenent , God has to put in you His Spirit to CAUSE you to will and do of His good pleasure,Then you certainly have a WILL.

Our desire is now to do HIS WILL, not our own. Not MY WILL by God's be done.

Even Jesus Christ had a WILL of His own. But Chose to do God's will. In choosing GOD's WILL, we Choose to SUFFER with Christ.

The Elect do not believe in the Fellowship of HIS SUFFERINGS, which should be the desire of our HEART, Conscience and will.
---kathr4453 on 1/16/11


David, you are correct, a person has a free choice, but not a free will. That is why the Bible does not speak of free will for salvation. It does speak about freedom to choose. That is the natural ability they have. They don't have a spiritual ability. They are dead spiritually to God, separated from God, children of wrath "walking to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath just as others"
Now that they are saved, why do they deny that is who they were? The Bible is clear.
---Mark_V. on 1/16/11


The Elect are the 144,000 first born the very good=666, Israel.
---lamar_tucker on 1/15/11

Lamar
Where have you been?
I didn't want to broach this subject at this time, but I agree with you, and the Bible is repleat with evidence of this.

It's unfortunate, but we have run out of space on this blog in which to show evidence of this.
Some other time?
---David on 1/16/11


Act 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

Of course, Peter could be wrong and Calvin and his modern-day disciples could be right, but I doubt it!
---jerry6593 on 1/16/11


The Elect are the 144,000 first born the very good=666, Israel of GOD=666,anyone claiming to be Gentile, Jew, are Israel after the Resurrection of Jesus are the moreover=666. Find fruit of the apple tree the apples are free you pick.
---lamar_tucker on 1/15/11




God does not force himself on anyone. A Christian does not care whether God chose them, or they have chosen God, but a Christian is just thankful for being Christian. Just as when you have a friend, it does not matter whether you connected to the other person or the other person connected to you first, the more important thing is that you have the connection, the exiting relationship, the friendship where you both can respond with each other.
---Eloy on 1/15/11


CraigA //How any man could be so self-absorbed in his own well-being that he feels no sorrow for those will not ever be given a chance to repent baffles me.

Not everyone has God revealed Himself to as He did with Saul of Tarsus on the road to Damascus.

If you were knocked off your ass by a bright light and found Jesus speaking to you, what real alternative would you have but to acknowledge the fact that you would believe?

Perhaps the problem lies in your concept of what and who God is, determined by your own value system?

Is He the big lovey dovey in the sky that beckons to us when we have an ouchy? Or will He be one that would sent you into harms way for His glory?
---leej on 1/15/11


Mark ... You say

"Second, if man had free will, God would not know what they will choose. And since God is Omniscient He knows all things"

Come, Mark, we have agreed that God is outside of our time, and in His omniscience knows everything that will happen. What you now say contradicts what you have said before!

"He is not a dictator, He is Almighty God who sets the rules"

Quite right. But you are setting Him rules, you are not allowing Him to give freewill.
---alan8566_of_uk on 1/15/11


Gods' will(Thelo-emotional element-leads to the consequent action)sent-Word in Flesh.Although not all will be saved--HIS WILL is that they are.He is True-Just and Fair and provided the Plan that WILL NOT FAIL.Predestined before foundation of THIS WORLD.
1 Timothy 2:4-5 Who WILL have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.For there is one God,one mediator between God and men,the man Christ Jesus,
Deut 32:26
..I would scatter them [Israel] into corners [all corners of the world]...remembrance of them to cease from among men
Matt 24:3-22(all)
except those days should be shortened ["time" and "season"]there should no FLESH be saved: BUT for the ELECT'S sake those days shall be shortened.
---char on 1/15/11


---First, there is no place in Scripture where God said He would give man free will.--- Mark_V

If theres no free will, there would be no need for a judgement.

The judgement of God is to determine where each man will spend eternity based on what he did with the free will God gave him.

The only other possibility is that God judges us according to the things He willed us to do. Would you dare accuse God of such a thing? Even men corrupted by sin know that would be unjust and cruel.

Is God nothing more in your eyes than a puppeteer? My hearts weeps for you if this is all you know Him as. You fail to receive the LOVE of the truth. (2 Thes 2:10)
---CraigA on 1/15/11


---Second, if man had free will, God would not know what they will choose.---Mark_V

I see what the problem is now. You don't believe that God has the ability to see into the future. You believe He is limited by our boundaries of space and time. It seems in your eyes God is not precognitive but is merely manipulative. Im so sorry that you feel that way.

How do you explain the book of Revelations? John was given the power to see things in the future by God. (Rev 1:9)
---CraigA on 1/15/11


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Pharisee, you said that in John 4:23 God is looking for those who will worship Him in Spirit"
Who are those people but the believers. It cannot be the lost. For only the believer can worship Him in Spirit and in Truth. "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in Spirit and Truth"
Unbelievers do not have the Spirit, and know nothing about spiritual matters. How can they worship in Spirit and Truth. The Lost worship who they not know v. 22.
---Mark_V. on 1/15/11


Pharisee 2: And you said,
"Let's be sensible, forced worship is the method of anti-Christ."
God does not force His children to worship Him, they worship Him because He is their Lord. They are slaves to Him. I don't know where you came out with that statement.
---Mark_V. on 1/15/11


There is no place in Scripture where God said He would give man free will.
---Mark_V. on 1/15/11

Mark
In partiality I agree with you.
Before you are born of God, you are a Slave to sin, and After you are born of God you are a slave to righteousness.
Can a Slave claim to have free will?
Where is the freedom?


We do however, have free Choice.
A choice between Sin which brings Death, and doing that which is commanded of us by God, which could bring us life.

If one chooses to make Jesus Christ the Lord of their life, they also give God a choice as to whether they shall perish or will have Eternal Life.
If they do not choose to make Jesus, Lord, they leave God with no choice.
---David on 1/15/11


---In John 4:24 Jesus said that God SEEKS a certain type of people to be his worshipers.---

He does indeed. Amen, Pharisee!
---CraigA on 1/15/11


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Genesis 3:22
22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:


question, the doctrine of total depravity is based on the fall of Adam...yes or no?

Does this mean your doctrine also believes God is totally depraved, based on the same knowledge of good and evil?
---kathr4453 on 1/15/11


Let's be sensible, forced worship is the method of anti-Christ. In John 4:24 Jesus said that God SEEKS a certain type of people to be his worshipers. If choice is not in play for all who worship Jesus, God is no different then the one he calls "man of sin."
No one can rightly worship such a God that makes them ignore and overlook what he has made them to plainly see is not right. What father hides what he does from his children unless his deeds are evil? The fact is he has revealed his nature by commanding love to be perfected to all people (Mat 5:48) and a God who does not even uphold his own law is reprobate with no right to command any such thing. This is shown as sin in proverbs 24:23,28:21, and James 2:9 and you say God sins!?
---Pharisee on 1/15/11


`I already know which verse you'll pull from your bag of tricks against this argument so spare me the quote from Isaiah that paul uses about the potter and the clay In Romans 9.
What's being defended is what God allows through Satan, not what God does directly, but Paul speaks of it as being direct and in a grander sense it is, but he allows Satan to work in conjunction with his foreknowledge. Technically there is no "vessel prepared for wrath by God" and it's infantile language to even write it that way. God created all in love even Satan or we say God has purposed sin in his creation, utter foolishness!
---Pharisee on 1/15/11


While I can understand the desire to believe that God loves YOU more than others, I couldn't live happily as a child of God knowing I am going to live with God in eternity when there are millions out there that God simply will not allow to repent and believe.

How any man could be so self-absorbed in his own well-being that he feels no sorrow for those will not ever be given a chance to repent baffles me.

A sinful man can feel sorrow over those who will spend eternity in hell, but God somehow enjoys it? I highly doubt it.

Since when does that which is evil have a greater capacity for compassion than that which is Holy? Any man who would dare suggest such a thing is a total fool!
---CraigA on 1/15/11


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MarkV "...leaving them to the consequences of their sin, unbelief, and rejection of Christ"

MarkV ... how can they reject Christ if they have no freewill?

Calvin, whose theology you follow sates that they are created for death. God's decision, His purpose, that they should die. Nothing to do with their rejection of Jesus.

They can neither accept nor reject Jesus, their fate is sealed from eternity.
---alan8566_of_uk on 1/15/11


Alan: Keep up the good work! You are correct that in the calvinist view, our Heavenly Father has capriciously created the majority of His children for the sole purpose of torturing them in the fires of hell. What kind of an earthly father would treat his children so but a child-abusing monster? I cannot reconcile such a concept of God with the notion that "God is love".
---jerry6593 on 1/15/11


Alan, you say to leej,
"The answer that we believe that God can do exactly what He wants, including allowing us freewill">
First, there is no place in Scripture where God said He would give man free will.
Second, if man had free will, God would not know what they will choose. And since God is Omniscient He knows all things. He is not a dictator, He is Almighty God who sets the rules.
Third, The Bible tells us our will is not free but is enslaved to sin. People have a choice but their choices will never be for God for they spiritually dead and enslaved to sin, their father is the devil, and are children of wrath, already sentenced to hell. What you are attempting to do is set them free. Scripture speaks against you.
---Mark_V. on 1/15/11


Love of God,
How can we say that God loves all men when the Psalms tell us He hates the workers of iniquity? ( Psalm. 5:5). How can we maintain that God loves all when Paul says that He bears the objects of His wrath, being fitted for destruction, with great patience? (Rom. 9:22). Even more how can we possibly accept that God loves all men without exception when we survey the acts of God's wrath in History? Think of the deluge which destroyed all but one family. Think of Sodom and Gomorrah. With so specific a chapter as Romans '1' which declares that sodomy is a sign of reprobation, could we possibly maintain that God loved the population of the two cities destroyed by fire? How can anyone possibly reconcile God's love and His wrath?
---Mark_V. on 1/15/11


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alan8566_of_uk //The answer that we believe that God can do exactly what He wants, including allowing us freewill.

Yes, I can believe one can reject the salvation God offers to one as God will not force anyone to love Him and that is one thing He desires.

But when it comes to salvation, that is something wholly of God.

Do you subscribe to the following from the WCF?

Man by his fall into a state of sin hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation, so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good and dead in sin, is not able by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.
---leej on 1/15/11


Alan 2: The decrees of God are eternal. They don't change. The Scriptures tell us, "By one man's disobedience the many were made sinners" Rom. 5:19. Through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned" Rom. 5:12. "Through one trespass the judgment came unto all men to condemnation" Rom. 5:18. Adam's sin is imputed to his descendants in the same way that Christ's righteousness is imputed to those who believe in Him. When a person comes to Christ, he is free from the condemnation of the Law. What your suggesting is Scripture is wrong, that man is free, he can open his on cell. Not only is he condemned already but is heading to hell.
---Mark_V. on 1/15/11


Christan
How do the Elect, know they are have been elected by God?
Is there a sign?
How do you know amongst those in your Church, who are the elected?

I ask these questions of you, for I find your answers simple, for I am a simple man.
---David on 1/15/11


What Calvinists fail to see are the covenents God made. They fail to see they were alians and strangers to the covenents of PROMISE, but are NOW brough near by the blood of Jesus Christ. They also fail to see that SOME of the branches Of Israel were broken off, so that THEY a WILD branch could be Grafted in.

Their doctrine of election is based on a bogus covenent called the covenent of Grace, that picks and chooses the elect. There is no such covenent in scripture.

God works through covenents. Not fabricated covenents.

His Covenents are:
The Everlasting Covenent
The New Covenent
The Mosaec Covenent
The Noah Covenant
The Palestinian Covenant
The Davidic Covenant. (but not in this order)
---kathr4453 on 1/15/11


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Just as a president must believe he has been chosen for office and accept it, so too must we believe and accept us being chosen to be co-heirs in the world to come.
There of some that will tell you where this belief or faith comes from, but the Bible is clear.
Rom 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Rom 3:27-28 Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
---micha9344 on 1/15/11


Question and Answer time:

Q. Does God desire the death of His only begotten Son?
A. Your answer and mine logically should be No.

Q. Did God then will that His Son will die on the Cross specifically at Calvary?
A. Scripture says,

"Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him, he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand." Isaiah 53:10

God does not desire the death of the wicked BUT He willed them to die in their wickedness to fulfill, "The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." Proverbs 16:4
---christan on 1/15/11


Pharisee 2: In His eternal purpose He chose only the elect out of the world ( John 17:6) and passed over the rest, leaving them to the consequences of their sin, unbelief, and rejection of Christ (Romans 1:18-32). Ultimately God's choices are determined by His sovereign, eternal purpose, not His desires, you can see that in 2 Peter 3:9.
God desires that all His children not sin, but knew from the foundation of the world that while they are still in the flesh they will continue to sin, until they receive their glorified bodies. But they have been forgiven through His Son.
---Mark_V. on 1/14/11


markV ... You say "God does not want men to sin. He hates sin with all His being. Thus He hates it consequences which is eternal wickedness in hell. God does not want people to remain wicked forever in eternal remorse and hatred of Himself"

And yet, your doctrine is that God, decided before the beginning, that He would save only a few, and deny the majority even the chance of being anything but unrepentant sinners.

And you say something extraordinary "There is a distinction between God's desire and His eternal saving purpose which must transcend His desires"

I thought God was supreme! You put Him in a straightjacket, where He is unable to fulfil His desire.
---alan8566_of_uk on 1/14/11


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"Say to them, As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, people of Israel?" Ezekiel 33:11

Believers of "free-will", you simply pluck one verse of the Scripture and make it into a doctrine that man on his own can obey God.

This is what Joshua declared the Israelites, "You are not able to serve the LORD. He is a holy God, he is a jealous God. He will not forgive your rebellion and your sins." Joshua 24:19

But "free-willers" are made different and better than the Israelites.
---christan on 1/14/11


Craig, no I donot beleive in calvinisim, nor do I believe in predestination.I do believe we have freewill & can choose to follow God. I also believe Jesus spoke in parables & there is no burning hell,he related to what the jewish beleieved about the burning pit outside the walls of Jeruselem where they threw dead corpses & burned them. The jewish didn't & still donot believe in a burning hell & according to the concordences "hell" is sheol/grave.
People want to believe what is taught in mythology carried over to chrisitanity & donot pay attenition to the true meanings.
The true elect are chosen out of his sheep after we accept him & they are the 144,000 & God only knows whom they are.
---candice on 1/14/11


Leej ... You offer only two alternatives:

a) That God selects those He will save, and those whom He will condemn to Hell

b) that God saves everyone

You then ask: "Or should we believe that God is not sovereign and cannot do whatever He wishes with His creation including destroying much of the human race as predicted in Revelation?"

The answer that we believe that God can do exactly what He wants, including allowing us freewill. The Calvinist doctrine of predestination shows a weaker God, who can't afford to allow free choice.

Who is the stronger leader, a king or a dictator?
---alan8566_of_uk on 1/14/11


The belief that Christ died for all and that all will be saved is a false doctrine known as Universalism.

Some fail to understand what scripture tells us in Romans 9 - that God as sovereign will do whatever He pleases for His glory.

And that already included hardening Pharoah's heart, chosing Jacob over Esau, etc.

As to the belief God is the big lovey dovey in the sky, forget not that scripture tells us that there will be a day when the trumpets will sound and the bowls poured out on mankind with the deaths in the millions.

True that some do not like what scripture teaches on this subject but God does not think like we do. Isaiah 55:8
---leej on 1/14/11


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Amen Pharisee! Isnt it a crying shame when God himself says He has no pleasure in death and that Christ gave himself a ransom for all and that God wants all to be saved and for some people to reject that idea simply because God doesnt FORCE His way into your life and remove all responsibility on the part of the sinner to repent and believe?

I guess He is a "weak god" if He is one who asks anything of US such as repentance in order to be saved.

Be not deceived, God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
---CraigA on 1/14/11


God has already been quoted as saying He would rather the wicked TURN from their ways and live than for them to die in their sin. He has no pleasure in that. He doesnt even understand why they would rather die than turn and be saved!! (Ezekiel 33:11)

That verse cannot simply be thrown aside in a vain attempt to put together a doctrine that helps certain people feel secure in their salvation.

If you feel insecure its a sign theres a sin in your life that God is wanting to rid you of and you are fighting Him on it. Strongholds WILL cause people to doubt their own salvation.
---CraigA on 1/14/11


//1 Tim. 2:5-6 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,who gave himself as a ransom for all menthe testimony given in its proper time.

Does 'all men' mean only those of whom God has called to salvation, or does it mean the entire world, most of whom have not nor will not ever hear the gospel message?

Universalism is the belief that is the big lovey dovey in the sky who will not ever think of not saving all that He created.

Scripture tells us that God will have mercy on some but not others. Romans 9 emphasized that. Or should we believe that God is not sovereign and cannot do whatever He wishes with His creation including destroying much of the human race as predicted in Revelation?
---leej on 1/14/11


Pharisee, Hi, let me explain 1 Tim. 2:6
"Desires that all men to be saved" The Greek word for "desire" is not that which normally expresses God's will of decree (His eternal purpose) But God will of desire. There is a distinction between God's desire and His eternal saving purpose which must transcend His desires. God does not want men to sin. He hates sin with all His being. Thus He hates it consequences which is eternal wickedness in hell. God does not want people to remain wicked forever in eternal remorse and hatred of Himself. Yet, God for His Own glory, and to manifest that glory in wrath, chose to endure "vessels" prepared for destruction "for the Supreme fulfillment of His will Romans 9:22
---Mark_V. on 1/14/11


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//the Elect don't even know who they are themselves in scripture. Even though they are marked.(Esau is not mentioned in this passage)
Isaiah 45:4,
For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
Isaiah 65:22
They shall not build, and another inhabit, they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
---Trav on 1/14/11//

-Agreed.
---char on 1/14/11


CraigA, when God chose his elect prior to creation it was on an individual basis not based on progeny. ---Blogger9211 on 1/13/11

Interesting...the Elect don't even know who they are themselves in scripture. Even though they are marked. (Esau is not mentioned in this passage)
Isaiah 45:4
For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
Isaiah 65:22
They shall not build, and another inhabit, they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
---Trav on 1/14/11


Mark ... on that other blog, you also said "He wants all of His children to come to repentance", and it was that which I could not match up with your doctrine that only some are elected, and the others positively prevented from being saved.

But I understand what you are saying if by "his children" you mean only his elect, not all mankind.

You also now say "He wants all of the Elect to come to repentance, not the wicked whom He has sentenced already" Sentenced for what? ... behaving as God has determined that they will behave. Call that punishment?

I agree with you, God can do as He likes ... it does not follow that because He can behave like a patholical killer, that He actually doe
---alan8566_of_uk on 1/14/11


If God so wanted to save everyone He would have saved everyone. For He is God Almighty and does what He pleases.
---Mark_V. on 1/14/11

That view is irreconcilable with God's word.

1Timothy 2:6 "Who will have all men to be saved" two verses later he says "as a ransom for all."

It is God's desire to have all men to be saved or are we going to twist scripture to mean only what we like? It should prick one's conscience to see a verse like that (and there are many) when your view of God doesn't allow it. An alarm should go off saying 'hey this stuff doesn't match.' Is God's word not perfect and God breathed? These ideas have to be reconciled without changing them in order to properly divide the word.
---Pharisee on 1/14/11


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If God so wanted to save everyone He would have saved everyone. For He is God Almighty and does what He pleases.
---Mark_V. on 1/14/11

Another problem with this view, is that it ignores the creatures God created us to be. He created us to be a people after his likeness, if that's the case he created us to have our own will and ability to choose holiness. It makes no sense for him to install that in a person and then make it of no effect unto the greatest choice a human can make. God gave us the ability to recognize logic, and then he becomes a God who defies logic? When you have glaring inconsistencies in your view of God it's not a right view. The Holy Spirit is to reveal him to you, NOT John Calvin or your own intellect.
---Pharisee on 1/14/11


"That they have already been sentenced because of God's curse"

God's curse was to natural death, we cannot extend the condemnation of every human being to something they are not responsible for (being born)
Who else is the giver of life but God? Well now how can we reconcile that to Ezekiel 18:20 which says "The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father" God's word is once again broken by your view of God. This must not be so, if your view of God cannot harmonize all of scripture it's flawed and must be called to account.
---Pharisee on 1/14/11


alan_of_uk, thanks for your clarification, my sincerely apologies to CraigA.

Many cannot come to terms that God is indeed a God of love (only to His elect) and also a God of hate (not elected). His love is an elective love. It's because you have been indoctrinated by preachers who continue to tell the whole world that God loves them and wants to save them. That's not the God of the Bible and neither did the prophets and apostles preached in that manner.

Therefore, God is love and to demonstrate His love, He will only show mercy to His people. By the same token, God hates and He demonstrates this through His wrath. He declared, "As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." Romonas 9:13
---christan on 1/14/11


CraigA, answers to your questions is provided in Romans 9,

14 "What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid."

18 "Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth."

19 "Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?"

20 "Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?"

21 "Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?"

This is the Sovereignty of God.
---christan on 1/14/11


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Yehovah desire is for all to be saved-the whole point of being placed in flesh.
The Elect-chosen have already be jusitified and are used for a purpose.The rest are called to repentance unto remission.

Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine, as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Romans 11:7-36Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity, but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

His love is so much greater-He is a True-just and fair God.
Matthew 18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish
---char on 1/14/11


Romans 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named." This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

And who are the children of the Promise? Are they not the Elect of God who were predestined from the foundation of the world? Eph. 1:3

The verse would definitely eliminate those who are not of the promise as they will not be saved.
---leej on 1/14/11


Alan, you ask me on the other blog,
"If God has elected (chosen) chosen only some to be saved, it follows that he has chosen the rest to be not saved, and therefore destined (by His will) for Hell. Now why would he do that if He wants all to come to repentance?"

I believe that Christian provide the answer for you when he gave,
""But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased." Psalm 115:3"
Alan, He wants all of the Elect to come to repentance, not the wicked whom He has sentenced already.

If God so wanted to save everyone He would have saved everyone. For He is God Almighty and does what He pleases.
---Mark_V. on 1/14/11


...not "children of the elect" it is the Elect,by the FOREKNOWLEDGE of God.He knew Adam would eat the fruit BEFORE he ate but we dont blame God for the tree because Adam was given free-will...God knows the beginning from the end He knows who will respond to His grace and those who wont,He calls ALL He even chooses some but we are also accountable just as Adam was for the "Gift"...which angels have not,of our free will...This is a mystery!
---richard on 1/14/11


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Christan .. "CraigA, you say "According to Calvinist doctrine", and what is this doctrine you are accusing Calvin of teaching? Do tell"

CraigA was asking, not accusing. It was I who quoted Calvin's own words

"Election is based on God's love from eternity"
There's the problem. Because Calvin's doctrine of election of some for everlasting life means that for the others there is election for everlasting torture. How can that be called love?
---alan8566_of_uk on 1/14/11


Ok so then by your scripture Christan, if you personally have children they may be predestined for hell because thats where God wants them to go? They have no chance at accepting Jesus Christ because God doesnt want to change them and save them?

I dont know about you but it would rip my heart out to think that God would take greater pleasure in sentencing my children than he would in showing them mercy and changing their heart.
---CraigA on 1/14/11


Craig, you have a hard time trying to explain the passages of Scripture to be able to hold on to your theology. You are trying to use your human (flesh) understandings and what you consider love to prove your points. They do not work in the plan of God. When a person brings the Truth to an none believer, the first thing they have to teach is that everyone born is a descendant of Adam and born in sin, that they have already been sentenced because of God's curse. They need to be saved. And salvation is only through Christ. There is no other way. That means everyone. There is no exceptions. In your mind you might have a lot of exceptions, but your mind is not the Word of God. There is no people born righteous, the Bible is clear on that.
---Mark_V. on 1/14/11


CraigA, election is unconditional (Romans 9:11). God does not elect because He foresaw that you were going to do something to please Him. There's no Scriptural backing that God foresee rather Scripture says, He foreknow. There's a great difference.

Election is based on God's love from eternity, and His promise, "but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments." (Exodus 20:6). And those who love Him is because God first loved them (1 John 4:19).

I will only go as far as Scripture takes me and that's, "So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." Romans 9:16 and I do know and believe God indeed is merciful.
---christan on 1/14/11


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God does not predestine people to Hell.---Pharisee on 1/12/11

I never lookd at it this way, but this is a very true statement.
God says that he wishes for no man to perish and then decides that you will persih before you are even born.
???????????
---David on 1/14/11


--As that being the case, each of us, even our children of whom we try to lead to Christ, must make their own decisions.--

Ty leej. That is what I was looking for.

Mark? Christan? Anything to add or do you completely agree with leej?
---CraigA on 1/13/11


CraigA, you say "According to Calvinist doctrine", and what is this doctrine you are accusing Calvin of teaching? Do tell.

Scripture declares, that the children of Isaac, who were Jacob and Esau (twins) - only Jacob did God loved and Esau He hated. Yes, one is in Paradise and the other is in Hades. Do you have a problem with that?

If you do, the Psalmist simply declares, "But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased." Psalm 115:3 and

"Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?" Romans 9:20
---christan on 1/13/11


Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit, who worketh when, and where, and how he pleaseth. So also are all other elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word." X,3 Of Effectual Calling.

In other words, if one is an intellectualy challenged, there can be salvation.
---leej on 1/12/11


Whoever wrote that was spiritually challenged because there is NO scripture backing that up. It is totaly FABRICATION and FANTASY. Any lie leads to many lies.
---kathr4453 on 1/13/11


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CraigA, when God chose his elect prior to creation it was on an individual basis not based on progeny. There may me many members of a specific blood line included in the Elector just a single member it was based upon an actions or non-actions that God the Father knew would occur.
---Blogger9211 on 1/13/11


Christan,

That has nothing to do with the question I asked. Who are you responding to?

Leej,

My questions wasnt what happens to elect children when they die before accepting Christ.

Maybe the question is confusing. Let me rephrase..

Do Calvinists (the elect) believe that their children are automatically elected to salvation as well?
---CraigA on 1/13/11


"In other words, if one is an intellectualy challenged, there can be salvation."
---leej on 1/12/11

Well, Lee, there may be hope for you yet!
---jerry6593 on 1/13/11


CraigA //If you believe you are "elected to salvation" by God and some are not, isnt it possible that God didnt elect your own children to salvation?

You often hear that God has only sons & daughters not grandchildren. As that being the case, each of us, even our children of whom we try to lead to Christ, must make their own decisions.

It is my understanding that election really occurs when a person responds in accordance to the faith God appropriates to the person.
---leej on 1/13/11


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Leej, that scripture simply defends Gods right to show MERCY on whomever He will.

In the chapter God is being accused about breaking his promise to Israel.

Paul is simply letting them know those promises werent made to them based on the things mentioned in verses 4 and 5. It is then explained that the way God shows his mercy is to those who have faith instead of looking at their own deeds. The Jews look at their election as Gods chosen people as being good enough. Paul is setting them straight.

Its ironic that as Paul is doing so yet another group of people in the year 2011 seem to be arguing their election based on the same words he is using to prove the Jews fools.
---CraigA on 1/12/11


So my origin question still remains.

If you believe you are "elected to salvation" by God and some are not, isnt it possible that God didnt elect your own children to salvation? Is there any Biblical support for believing God loves your own children the way He does you?
---CraigA on 1/12/11


CraigA //No - the real question is just as I posted.

Thats what I seek an answer for.

Do you have an answer?
---

Perhaps a quote from Westminster Confession of faith which is basically Calvinistic would provide you with an answer.

"Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit, who worketh when, and where, and how he pleaseth. So also are all other elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word." X,3 Of Effectual Calling.

In other words, if one is an intellectualy challenged, there can be salvation.
---leej on 1/12/11


These are Calvin's words:

"Predestination we call the eternal decree of God, by which He has determined in Himself what He would have to become of every individual of mankind. For they are not all created with a similar destiny, but eternal life is fore-ordained for some, and eternal damnation for others. Every man therefore being created for one or other of those two ends, we say, he is predestined either to life or death"
---alan8566_of_uk on 1/12/11


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The Elect are God's beloved and it was because of God's love that He, "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will."

And His promise is simple and clear, John 10:

27 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"
28 "And I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."
29 "My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."

It's a promise from God, and to believe or question otherwise speaks of your unbelief.
---christan on 1/12/11


"Why people have such a problem with God being sovereign and can do with whatever He wants with His creation, is hard to understand."

I can't understand people having such ease developing a view of God that opposes what he shows of himself elsewhere in scripture. This question can't be settled here, I have written many pages on the topic after extensive research and debate that examine both points fully and always come to this conclusion: Either view taken to an extreme cancel the other and both attributes are displayed in God's relation to man. When that is the case, those views have to be reconciled or the scripture is broken. "A fanatic is someone going in the wrong direction and doubling their speed" -Adrian Rogers
---Pharisee on 1/12/11


No - the real question is just as I posted.

Thats what I seek an answer for.

Do you have an answer?
---CraigA on 1/12/11


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