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How To Abuse God's Grace

Give me specific ways we abuse God's grace?

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 ---charles on 1/14/11
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Jack B, you made a comment that you should back up with Scripture, you said,
"Dont you find it odd that you think this is impossible when God himself taught in a parable that it is indeed possible?".
Why don't you give that parable please? Just making statement anyone can do that, Kathr does that all the time to sound right, but she is always wrong. I will be waiting.
---Mark_V. on 12/19/11


---However, we must remember that both may be true for the same person - that God placed us in a position, where we got a character, that made us accept God.
-Peter on 12/17/11

God put in every person the ability to have FAITH in Him. Why,m because before teh fall no faith was needed. FAITH is what is given to man to please God. Abel is the first person recorded ( a lost person) demonstrating faith in the Comming redeemer, by offering a blood sacrifice. Before Adam & Eve sinned, there was NO NEED for any BLOOD sacrifice or any need for faith. REMEMBER our fiath is in the Person of Jesus Christ who died for our sin.

Again, during the 1000 years NO FAITH will be needed then either, for Christ will be here with us.
---kathr4453 on 12/19/11


Kathr, I know how you feel. and why you do not understand. You have not believed in the Eternal Begotten Son of God. and until you do, you will think any truth given to you is a lie. When was lost, I thought the same thing. Sorry you do not understand regeneration, rebirth, born of the Spirit. Neither did Nicodemus.
---Mark_V. on 12/19/11


Jack B, I wanted to answer to what you said to me on another blog that closed.
You seem to think I gloat in seeing people, even my relatives go to hell. Well I don't. I didn't make the rules, God did. I don't write the Word of God, I just believe it and do as I'm commanded to do, to spread the gospel. I have no control over who is going to be saved or not. I can do my part as best as I can. I witness everyday at hospitals, and we are getting a group called NODA, No one dies along, in Nothern Ca. If were there before they die, we can be able to witness to them. We do not know who the elect are, it could be one of them.
God has His own reasons why He created and planned the way He did. He is much smarter then all of us put together.
---Mark_V. on 12/19/11


The Bible does not contain the doctrine of double predestination, although in a few isolated passages it seems to come close to it.

The Bible teaches that all salvation is based on the eternal Election of God in Jesus Christ, and that this eternal Election springs wholly and entirely from God's sovereign freedom.

The Bible teaches that alongside of the elect there are those who are the reprobate, but in these passages the point at issue is not eternal election but separation or selection in judgment.

Thus the Bible teaches that there will be a double outcome of world history, salvation and ruin, Heaven and hell.
---lee1538 on 12/19/11




God PREDSTINED before the foundation of the world to take out of the first creation(man ) and create in Himself ONE NEW MAN who would share His Glory and spend eternity in the New Heaven and Earth with Him, having Glorified bodies that could withstand such an envoronment. Adam/Eve being made of DUST could never do that.

We were predestined to be Conformed to the image of Jesus Christ SO THAT we could live a Holy Blameless life for all eterniity.

Those who receive Jesus Christ as their savior are these promises given to. Anyone, whosoever will become God's Elect. NOT His elect Angels, but His elect SONS because we are born of God, of which Adam/Eve were not.

We have a HIGHER CALLING than they did. This is what ELECT Means.
---kathr4453 on 12/19/11


Ephesians 2:15
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances, for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace,


Predestination is Christ made IN HIMSELF one new man.

The New man is IN CHRIST and Christ is in him.

It's not WHO God predestined, but WHAT God Predestined.... A NEW CREATURE.

The NEW CREATURE is Something so above and beyond anything Adam /Eve were made out of Dust. We're born from Above, Born of God.

Born of the Life of Christ IN US. Someone Christ made in and of HIMSELF!

This IS the Gospel accordinng to the MYSTERY!!! Christ IN YOU, the Hope of GLORY
---kathr4453 on 12/19/11


"The Israelites are being addressed in Romans 9 - not the gentiles... Youre taking the entire chapter out of context." CraigA

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God was a chosen vessel of God to teach only the Gentiles. Paul wrote the epistle to the Romans 9 with a heavy heart to his fellow Jews (who were hardened by God to reject not only His Son but also Paul's teachings). The Holy Bible are for ALL WHO ARE CHRISTIANS BY THE WILL OF GOD - and they are made up of Jews and Gentiles!

Denying that the Holy Bible includes the Gentiles who are Christians is nothing but foolishness or as God always rebuked the Jews calling them "stiff-necked people".
---christan on 12/19/11


JackB, dictionary defines dead as, "no longer living, deprived of life"

When Paul told the Ephesians, "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins.", do you actually think he was referring to the flesh? Obviously Paul was referring to the spiritual faculty of the man and not the flesh.

The parable of the prodigal son simply teaches us that if you're a child of God chosen by Him from eternity, in God's time you will return to Him and that's a guarantee. Jesus confirmed this by declaring,

"Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish." Matthew 18:14 in the parable of the lost sheep.
---christan on 12/19/11


Hi MarkV,

Here are two of my favorite verses:
Eph1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

I really like these don't you!

Lord bless you brother!
---trey on 12/19/11




Kathr, you said:
"And the ONLY reason your depraved sinfill self is going to heven is because YOU SAY you were personally chosen to believe and given something no one else is given."

Another lie. Who said, "no one else is given?" You must not be listening? All of the elect are given faith. Every single day more and more are been saved. And no, you are not stupid. You just don't believe the Word of God. You don't, because you do not believe in the Eternal Son, you believe in a created son. All three members of the Trinity or God. Jesus Christ is God, the Holy Spirit is God, the Father is God. You try so hard to separate them when you say, Jesus saved, but not the Holy Spirit. Only false teachers do that.
---Mark_V. on 12/20/11


Your double talk markv is astounding. If you believe God had to rebirth YOUR spirit SO THAT you could have faith, and that faith is a gift given ONLY to the elect, and withheld from the remainder, then no matter what you want to say here, God chose not to rebirth the unelect and chose NOT to give the gift of faith to the unelect, then God CHOSE to send the unelect to hell.

And the ONLY reason your depraved sinfill self is going to heven is because YOU SAY you were personally chosen to believe and given something no one else is given.

We're not stupid here markv. This is what is called double predestination. Some predestined to heaven the rest predestined to hell.
---kathr4453 on 12/17/11


Samuel: 'GOD is love. Calvanism denies that.'

Not quite.... though I also have some problems with Calvanism (which I usually refer to Augustus' theology, which is basically the same). But the alternative, Pelagianism, seems almost impossible.

However, we must remember that both may be true for the same person - that God placed us in a position, where we got a character, that made us accept God.
---Peter on 12/17/11


Or do you think you chose Him while dead in sin?
---Mark_V. on 12/17/11


What part of scripture says you cannot? Or are you just relying upon your own understanding of the word dead?

The father of the prodigal son considered his son "dead" and yet while "dead" his son came to his senses and desired to return home to his father and his father saw him coming and met him.

Dont you find it odd that you think this is impossible when God himself taught in a parable that it is indeed possible?

Yet you claim we reject the truth of scripture.
---JackB on 12/17/11


The Israelites are being addressed in Romans 9 - not the gentiles...

Youre taking the entire chapter out of context.
---CraigA on 12/17/11


Samuel, concerning God's love you said,
"Suppose a Billionare walked into an orphange and decided to adopt all the children. Could he not do so?"
He could do so. After all He is doing the decision, not the kids. Here is God's love as an example, He chose to place His love on the nation of Israel over the others. He chose to bring the gospel to the Jews before He allowed it to go to others, and those others died in sin. He chose to slaughter the Canaanites and many other nations, they too died in their sins. Have you not read the Bible Samuel? Or do you think it is ok for Him to do all that to them, but when it comes to you, He has to love you and do what you say? Nonsense.
---Mark_V. on 12/18/11


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Samuel, you said:
"Mark Calvanism teaches JESUS only died for some of the lost. He choose to send all the rest to hell. That GOD made them to be tortued for all etenity according to your belief. He did not want to or choose to let them choose he choose for them. That is basic predestiantion."

Those are opinions and lies about what I believe. That is what "you" accuse me of believing. He didn't choose to sent the others to hell, they loved darkness. No one made them sin, they sinned because they loved to sin. Second, if God had not chosen to save some, all would be going to hell for their rebellion against God. Lucky you, He chose you. You did not deserve it. Or do you think you chose Him while dead in sin?
---Mark_V. on 12/17/11


Samuel, no one is denying that "GOD is love." For you, it stops there and the truth of the Scripture is left incomplete, which does not do justice to who God really is. Why is it so hard for you to say what Paul declared in Romans 9:13,

"As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."

Paul didn't stop there, he continued declaring to us that God has created only two kinds of vessels, one called honor and the other dishonor. These are taught in the Scriptures - why do you continue to silence the complete truth?

Do you not know what God's instruction to the prophets were? " the words that I command thee to speak unto them, diminish not a word"
---christan on 12/17/11


//Mark Calvanism teaches JESUS only died for some of the lost

Mt 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

The scripture says "He gave His life a ransom for many", it does NOT say "He gave His life for all"

Mt 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mr 14:24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.
---lee1538 on 12/17/11


Mark Calvanism teaches JESUS only died for some of the lost. He choose to send all the rest to hell. That GOD made them to be tortued for all etenity according to your belief. He did not want to or choose to let them choose he choose for them. That is basic predestiantion.

Suppose a Billionare walked into an orphange and decided to adopt all the children. Could he not do so? But he would have to choose not to adopt some. It would be his choice that decides the furure of the orphans.

GOD is love. Calvanism denies that.
---Samuel on 12/16/11


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Samuel Part 2: let me give you an anology,
Let's suppose you had been visiting an orphanage a few times, loved all of them but you decided you wanted to adopt a child, and you picked one.
1. Did you commit an injustice to the others? No.
2. Were you obligated to take all of them? No.
3. Were you cruel for just taking one? No.
4. What wrong did you do to the others? No wrong.
5. What choice did the kids have? None.
The same holds true for God. He picks whom He wants to have mercy on, and the rest He leaves them along. There is no unrighteousness with God, and no cruelty on His behalf. he is after all God, He could decide to save all, but He doesn't. Man has no choice.
---Mark_V. on 12/16/11


Samuel, where do you find that God wants to sent people to hell? I see no where that it is written. Can you show one place where that is taught? That might be what you think, but it is not. Everyone has an opportunity if he so desires God. The problem with the lost is they don't desire God with their fallen nature. Jesus said, they love darkness rather then the Light. How can they desire God when they love darkness? You love God because He first loved you. And because of that Love with which He loved us (believers) He made "us" alive. What you don't like is that He chose some and not all. You want to obligate God to man.
---Mark_V. on 12/16/11


Yes salvation is all of God, 100%. God was made flesh and died in our place. He took our sin debt and HE paid that debt. Nothing YOU could do or can do can earn your way back to God.

Jesus took our sin upon Him, and satisfied God's Judgement for sin.

WOW no greater GIFT could ever be. BUT it came at a price.

Those who place their faith in Jesus Christ for the forgivness of sin receive the GIFT OF ETERNAL LIFE Through Jesus Christ. He has moved in, and His life in you is that GIFT of eternal life.

If you read Genesis re Abel, Abel FIRST made a blood sacrifice, placing his faith in the coming redeemer, looking forward to teh cross, Abel THEN FOUND FAVOR in God's Eyes.

Faith always comes first before favor.
---kathr4453 on 12/16/11


Those that reject the doctrine of Election believe that salvation is our choice, that it is not wholly of God.

For it is by God's unmerited favor that one is saved unto eternal life, and that not of ourselves it is the gift of God (paraphase Eph. 2:8-9 lee1538

We agree that it is wholly a gift of GOD. We reject predestination that GOD wants to send people to hell, that he does not love everyone, that JESUS did not die for everyone.

Calvanism should have you believe that your arguing is futile. Since GOD has already chosen all your attacks are pointless.
---Samuel on 12/15/11


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---Mark_V. on 12/15/11


MarkV, WHERE IS JESUS and HIS SHED BLOOD here?

are you suggesting the Holy Spirit can cleans you apart fromm being cleansed by the Blood of Jesus Christ??

You say the Holy Spirit cleanses your old man dead spirit from sin?

If the Holy Spirit cleansed your old man dead spirit and rstored you back to Adam 1 before the fall, you then are sinlesss, and have no need of Jesus Christ. Correct?

So why then are we CRUCIFIED with Christ SO THAT the body of sin might be done away with?

So God rengenerates your old man and and THEN Jesus crucifies it?

Are you crucified with Christ MarkV so that you can be born from ABOVE?
---kathr4453 on 12/15/11


Kathr 2: what you have done is localized the Holy Spirit to one place, in the heart of believers, but the Holy Spirit is God and He is everywhere at all times, He is Omnipresent. He cannot be localized. But under the New ministry the Holy Spirit, He is said to be in the believer empowering them to do their ministry for the Lord. He is not really inside since He is Spirit. Jesus Christ is also said to be in the believer, but He is in a relationship, for He is at the right hand of the Father. -Mark_V. on 6/1/11
---kathr4453 on 12/15/11


But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:4,5).

And that has been the testimony of many who have come to know Christ.

Those that reject the doctrine of Election believe that salvation is our choice, that it is not wholly of God.

For it is by God's unmerited favor that one is saved unto eternal life, and that not of ourselves it is the gift of God (paraphase Eph. 2:8-9).
---lee1538 on 12/15/11


Kathr, again just to argue, you want to change the meaning of God's Word to your own destruction.
" But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through "the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:4,5). The passages answer three problems you argue on,
One we are saved by grace not our own free will, second, It's according to His mercy. Third, we are washed, cleansed, and renewed by the Holy Spirit.
---Mark_V. on 12/15/11


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Flesh and blood cannot ENTER the Kingdom of God, only the NEW CREATURE who will be in the NEW CREATION. God is no more going to rebirth the heavens and earth any more than He is going to rebirth fallen man.

Born Again is a NEW BIRTH also know as a NEW CREATURE not a remade old creture.

The Hevens and earth are gong to MELT AWAY not be rebirthed.

We are looking for a NEW HEAVEN and Earth.

Romans 6 tells us that old adam was CRUCIFIED with Christ, baptized into His death. We are reised up WITH HIM a NEW CREATURE, not a rebirthed one.


Your experience of rebirth is no different than someone claiming they were slain in the spirit. ALL in your head, and your flesh!
---kathr4453 on 12/14/11


Kathr, again you misquote my answers. I didn't say, a New Birth. I'm talking about born again of the Spirit. You misquote everyone's answers.
Your not looking for the Truth, you just want to argue, so you look for errors.
It was Jesus, the Eternal Begotten Son of God, ( the One you do not believe in,) who first declared that a spiritual rebirth was an absolute necessity for entering the kingdom of God. He declared to Nicodemus, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" The word "unless" in Jesus teaching signals a universally necessary condition for seeing and entering the Kingdom of God. Rebirh is an essential part of Christianity. Not New birth.
---Mark_V. on 12/14/11


By choosing to sin Adam did die spiritually, losing the personal walking and talking relationship he enjoyed with God. But the Hebrew behind "in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die" is 'in dying you shall die.' Not an instant death but a process would begin involving decay leading to death. Just as has occurred ever since. But the good news is the tree of life will be in heaven, Revelation 22:2.

After sin they were expelled from the garden losing access to the tree of life to stop them eating of the tree of life and "and live forever" Genesis 3:22.

They became mortal and the process towards death had begun.
---Warwick on 12/13/11


No Markv, what you are teaching is re-incarnation, not the New Birth. You said the New Birth is NOT the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, but a rebirth of our old adam fallen dead spirit.

I totally understand what it is to be Born Again, born from Above, Born OF GOD, begotten/born sons through Jesus Christ.

And because you don't you call names. That is what happens to those caught in cult like teachings. It is very understandable.

MarkV, you are teaching re-incarnation.

If all God had to do was rebirth the fallen old man's spirit, there would be no need for Jesus Christ.

Your doctrine REALLY doesn't need Christ at all. Just God's sovereign will and right to do as he pleases.
---kathr4453 on 12/13/11


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Just an FYI:

The word "reincarnation" derives from Latin, literally meaning, "entering the flesh again".
---kathr4453 on 12/13/11


Kathr, you need to be born of the Spirit to understand spiritual matters. That's your problem. You have no faith in God's Word. Adam died the day he disobeyed. That very day and it was not a physical death, but a spiritual one. He was not deceived, he disobeyed for no good reason but to disobey. God said,
".. Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, "for in the day that you eat of it, you shall surely die" (Gen. 2:16.17).
Now either God lied, which is what you are saying, or he died. And we know physically he did not die that day, but 900 and some years later. And the reason all his descendants have to be born again of the Spirit.
---Mark_V. on 12/13/11


What is really interesting about Calvins's doctrine of rebirthing "the spirit of man" first SO THAT he cannot resist the Holy Spirit is an interssting one.

If man were actulaly put back into the state of Adam before he sinned, he would:

1) be sinless,

and 2) no need for salvation since his spirit was restored,

and 3) fail to understand that even when adam was perfect and sinless with his now sinless "man spirit", STILL sinned, by his own will.

Eve was deceived, Adam was not. Adam willfully disobeyed God with his perfect man spirit in tact.

SO that alone shows there is NO PROOF that rebirthing the "man spirit" guarantees irresistable grace.
---kathr4453 on 12/13/11


Exactly when was/is the Spirit of God given to man??? and is it man's spirit rebirthed or is it the indwelling of the Spirit of God that is the Spirit God gives to man? On what conditions is the Spirit of God given to man? You say none...He just GIVES the Spirit of God/Himself to the elect before ever showing any faith in Christ or anything?

Please back up with scripture!!! No where is it shown God GAVE Abel the Spirit of Himself or rebirthed Abels man spirit to have faith an OBEY his will to offer a blood sacrifice.

No where is it shown anyone in Israel was first given a Spirit of God or a rebirth of man's spirit to believe in the yearly atonement for sin.
---kathr4453 on 12/12/11


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"You have to be born of the Spirit" otherwise you will not understand any passages I give you. They will be rejected.
---Mark_V. on 12/12/11


But Markv you said born of the spirit is man's spirit re-birthed. And Paul tells us the spirit of man cannot understand the things of God.

So are you sure even you understand the things of God??
---kathr4453 on 12/12/11


Craig, if you read what I wrote you will understand why I did not give you any passages.
"You have to be born of the Spirit" otherwise you will not understand any passages I give you. They will be rejected.
---Mark_V. on 12/12/11


Kathr, you twisted the meaning. 1 Cor. 2:11 does not state what you said, you said.

"Paul clearly teaches that the spirit of man can never know the things of God"

Paul never said that. why? That's not what the passage says. There is no "Never" in that passage. He first exlained the spirit of man. Then he explained the Spirit of God. After explaining both, he says.
"Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God" You said the spirit of man could never know about God. The Spirit of man cannot know about God until the Spirit of God is given to him. Stop twisting the passages.
---Mark_V. on 12/12/11


Thats not scripture Mark. I asked for scripture.
---CraigA on 12/12/11


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1 Corinthians 2:11
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.



Paul clearly teaches that the spirit of man can never know the things of God, but only those who have the Spirit of God in them KNOW.

Therefore the spirit of man, dead or alive cannot know the things of God.

Thank you Lord for Paul and your truth through him that even then there must have been false teachers you knew before hand to NIP IN THE BUD!
---kathr4453 on 12/12/11


If you are indeed an abuser, then you should already know the specific ways that you abuse.
---Eloy on 12/12/11


Craig, if you don't know that by now, without someone showing you, then you have followed a wrong gospel, and you are still dead in sin, spiritual death, separation from God. You have not been drawn to God, as Scripture tells us.
For once a person is drawn by God, he is no longer separated from Him spiritually. You then become one part of the body of Christ. That too is in Scripture. Such a God cannot be found out by searching. He can be known only as He is revealed to you by the Holy Spirit through the Word of God.
---Mark_V. on 12/12/11


Markv,I said nothing about Adam having God's Spirit in him. So stop twisting your own words and creating a diversion.

You tell us that Born Agsin or re-birth is not when God's Spirit indwells us, BUT when the Holy Spirit has to FIRST rebirth the old Adams's dead spirit first BEFORE one can cry out to God, receive salvation and THEN receive the Spirit of God.

NO SUCH DOCTRINE is even remotely taught in scripture.

YOU continue to ASSUME that is how the elect of God are saved, because of your false total depravity doctrine that man's CONSCIENCE is what is affected by hearinng the word.Your false doctrine ABUSES the Grace of God!, and the Spirit of GRACE!.
---kathr4453 on 12/12/11


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Markv, what is even more abusive is telling people OT Saints were not only Born Again...AKA REBIRTHED man's spirit, but Indwelt by the Spirit of God too. You say rebirth and indwelling are two different things.

You claim this is so but can you prove it is so. Can you show any scripture where OT men and women were told to walk in the spirit and not in the flesh?

And you put OT Saints under Law and GRACE at the same time, which is not only impossible now, but entirely impossible then.

Your doctrine totally undermines the death and resurrection and blood of Christ. You put Christ and His resurrection life in us as secondary.
---kathr4453 on 12/12/11


Concerning Baptism of the Holy Spirit, all believers are baptized by the Holy Spirit, baptized into One spiritual body in Christ. John talks about that baptism in John 3:11. markV///

Then you said this concerning John 3:11

What I did say is that, born again is not the indwelling of the Spirit. When a person is born again, it means he is brought to spiritual life, ---Mark_V. on 12/10/11

There seems to be a contradiction here MarkV.

You keep insisting one needs to be rebirth FIRST before one can have faith to believe in Jesus using John 3 at your text proof, NOW you say it is the baptism of the Holy Spirit, baptizing you INTO CHRIST.
---kathr4453 on 12/12/11


--When a person is born again, it means he is brought to spiritual life, he is THEN indwelled by the Spirit,--MarkV


Scripture?
---CraigA on 12/11/11


Kathr, it is an abuse to say that the Spirit of God died at Adam's fall. The Spirit of God never dies. Adam's spirit died that very day. His ability to comprehend spiritual matters. "But the natural man (lost) does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Cor. 2:14). He was dead to God who is Spirit. Adam died that day. Spiritually died to God. His spirit died. But the Holy Spirit brings our spirit alive to Christ,
"Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ"
---Mark_V. on 12/11/11


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We abuse God's Grace when we teach that the Spirit of man died with the Fall of Adam and that the Holy Spirit picks and chooses who's spirits will be made alive to God APART from faith in Jesus Christ who alone is the life Giver.

MarkV teaches that the Holy Spirit has authority to bring back to life and reverse the effects of sin by re-birthing your spirit BEFORE even receiving Jesus Christ and being indwelt by the Spirit of God.

No scripture ever teaches such nonsense! It's a lie!

And because I expose this false doctrine MarkV resorts to lies and slander.
---kathr4453 on 12/11/11


Kathr, your who you are, a liar, every day you continue to lie about what others have said.
All of the elect are not perfect. When they are born they are sinners like you, still in bondage to sin. And once they are saved, they still have the flesh so they still sin, but are forgiven. They have not been glorified yet. That's why I asked you, "Who do you say that He is?" the Eternal Son of God?
Grace in Scripture has many meanings. God graciously gives rain to everyone. He also graciously, without anyone making Him, also saves those whom He has chosen from the foundation of the world. That is saving grace. It's unmerited. No free will is involve, for God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy on. It is all of God.
---Mark_V. on 11/10/11


Genuine believers can never abuse God's grace for salvation. That grace is unmerited. Yet God through His Word tells us that there are those that,
"Their throat is an open tomb, with their tongues they have practiced deceit" The poison of asps is under their lips" "Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness" Their feet are swift to shed blood, Destruction and misery are in their ways. And the way of peace they have not known. There is no fear of God before their eyes" --- Their feet are swift to shed the blood of others.
---Mark_V. on 11/8/11

Exactly, Calvin fits this description Perfectly.
---kathr4453 on 11/8/11


One can abuse God's Grace for salvation, by insulting the Spirit of Grace.

One can also abuse God's Grace after salvation by falling from Grace.

If in any way we live under legalistic measures, or allow anything but Christ as our Spiritual Head to nourish His Body, we abuse and insult the spirit of Grace.

Markv, you are not being realistic by telling us you all can do no wrong no matter what. And pointing out these wrongs seems to bother you so much that you condemn the messenger and not the truth of the message.

This is what many have an issue with. The elect can sin all they want, and you say there is no merit to that accusation?
---kathr4453 on 11/8/11


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Genuine believers can never abuse God's grace for salvation. That grace is unmerited. Yet God through His Word tells us that there are those that,
"Their throat is an open tomb, with their tongues they have practiced deceit" The poison of asps is under their lips" "Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness" Their feet are swift to shed blood, Destruction and misery are in their ways. And the way of peace they have not known. There is no fear of God before their eyes"
This are those who claim to be righteous but no evidence is found in their answers. The evidence is bitterness and hate. Their feet are swift to shed the blood of others.
---Mark_V. on 11/8/11


And of coarse teh greatest abuse of all was " the Elect of Salem MA" falsely accusing "The Elect" of witchcraft. Not only was this an abuse of God's GRACE but totally nullified THEIR own 6 or 5 point TULIP Doctrine to begin with, which is really a hoot.

The right hand never knew what the left hand was doing.

They still do it! Shall we forgive them for they know not what THEY do?
---kathr4453 on 11/7/11


MORE on abusing God's Grace.

Calvin and Farel began to enact severe reforms in Geneva based on their interpretation of the Scriptures. Believing that men were basically evil at their best, the reforms were an enforcement of a strict moral code on the citizens. One author states that naturally, the people of Geneva believed that they had thrown away one church only to see it replaced by an identical twin, in particular, they saw Calvin's reforms as imposing a new form of papacy on the people, only with different names and different people.

As a result of these harsh reforms, both Calvin and Farel were soon ordered to leave Geneva.
---kathr4453 on 11/7/11


However such is not welcomed by the legalists who preach what day we must observe and what foods we may or may not eat---
---lee1538 on 10/27/11


In reading Romans 14, no one is accused of being BLINDED but are rather the weaker brother. YET, those who are not considered the weaker brother are not to CALL NAMES or accuse the weaker brother, but WHAT???

We again ABUSE God's Grace as ones who are not the weaker brother, by continually clobbering and calling names.

This is addressed to both sides of the issue. Who are any of us to JUDGE another man's servant. Each will stand or fall accordingly. Romans 14 is God's Word on these Issues. Let's OBEY the Spirit of LOVE ----BOTH SIDES!
---kathr4453 on 11/7/11


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Kathr, isn't that what you've been doing for a couple of years now? I begin speaking to you nicely and all I got was your wrath. I tried to make peace and I got stabbed. I forgave you, but don't turn my back on you.
Second, None of us know who is saved and who is not but God. You can call yourself a Christian and speak a lot of religious talk, but that does not make you a Christian.
Only if you believe in the Eteranl Son of God. Who do you say that He is?
You get the answers you get because of how you treat others by accusing them of something and making lies of what they say. And they start by answering you nicely but later find out you are full of venom and wrath. Venom and wrath is not a part of a genuine believers life.
---Mark_V. on 11/7/11


Calvin abused God's Grace when he murdered. Also if anyone studies life under Calvin in Geneva, it was so legalistic and abusive. Reminds me of the movie "Swing Kids" WWII under Hitler, outlawing Jazz.

The Putitan Calvinists in Massachutes in the 16,17 and 18 hundreds outlawed Christmas and Christmas trees. Anyone getting caught with a Christmas tree was FINED by the state.

Neighbors were encouraged to INFORM on one antoher.

Talk about perverted legalism, called Grace...

And they want to be the Poster Children for TRUE GRACE????
---kathr4453 on 11/7/11


We abuse God's Grace when we abuse others who are saved by God's Grace.

Many here on line continue to abuse others who are savd by Grace through Faith, who continually insult the very Christ in us.

God clearly rebukes such behavior and actions.

Is God the author of abusing His own...NO!
---kathr4453 on 11/7/11


1 Corinthians 6:11 "And such were some of you: but ye are washed..."

"His meaning is, that having been once justified, they must not draw down
upon themselves a new condemnation that, having been sanctified, they must not pollute themselves anew that, having been washed, they must not disgrace themselves with new defilements, but, on the contrary, aim at purity, persevere in true holiness, and abominate their former pollutions"
John Calvin, Commentary on Corinthians 1

God's grace is not abused, but a man which heeds to no restraint disgraces himself and risks (Hebrews 10:26_31).
---Nana on 11/5/11


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David, good passage concerning apostates, if you begin to read the passage in Jude 4 from the beginning you will see who this people were.
1. "Certain man who crept unoticed." These were men, false teachers, who on the surfice looked like the real thing, whose intentions were to lead God's people astray. These apostates were Satan's counterfits, most likely teachers.
2. "They were marked out long ago" Apostasy and apostates were condemned many centuries before, such as illustrated in (v.5-7: and spoken of as Enoch did in (v. 14-16: Isa. 8:19-21: 47:9-15: Hos. 9:9) their doom was pre-written.
3. (This condemnation) was spoken of by others "long ago" They were ungodly men.
---Mark_V. on 10/28/11


Haz27//Sadly we see on CN some who judge righteousness by how well the 10 commandments are kept thus frustrating the grace of God.
---
And they ignore the fact Christ Jesus Himself did not hold the 10 commandments to be paramount. For when they asked Him what was the greatest commandment in the law, He did not mention any of the 10 commmandments. Matthew 22.

So then why should we observe the 10 commandments when all we need to do to fulfill the law is to love our neighbor for that is what is stated in Romans 13:9-10?

However such is not welcomed by the legalists who preach what day we must observe and what foods we may or may not eat.

Poor souls, they are so very blinded by the god of this world.
---lee1538 on 10/27/11


Legalistic doctrines abuse God's grace.

Gal 2:17-21
"But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners (1John3:4), is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not!
For if I build again those things which I destroyed (being under the law), I make myself a transgressor...
...I do not frustrate the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain."

Sadly we see on CN some who judge righteousness by how well the 10 commandments are kept thus frustrating the grace of God.
---Haz27 on 10/27/11


David, you quote Jude v4 obviously not knowing what is the meaning of God's Grace. For it says, "who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ."

Free-will is never grace but works. Why? The doctrine tells you that without the working (grace) of God upon your dead spirit, you have the ability on your own to choose and believe.

Definition of God's grace is "Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace, otherwise work is no longer work." Romans 11:5,6
---christan on 1/16/11


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we abuse ourselves through our presumption of eternal life (which we try in edenic paradigm).

god's grace is impervious to our abuse. he made sure of this by guarding it in the garden of eden.

out of his mercy we are extended his grace through jesus christ.
---aka on 1/16/11


We can abuse God's love, by wanting to use a beautiful Christian person for pleasure, instead of appreciating and loving the person.

It says, "and whom He wills He hardens," in Romans 9:18. A plant with healthy roots will grow in the sunshine. But that same loving sunshine can harden a plant that has poor roots, making it dry and hardened in the same loving sunshine, because of the plant's nature.

Do not be hardened, stubborn, about lovingly forgiving all people, then. "'And whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him, that your Father in heaven may also forgive you your trespasses.'" (Mark 11:25) Unforgiveness is abuse against Jesus forgiving us on the cross.
---Bill_willa6989 on 1/16/11


One gives to much credit to the man that's made of dust and will return to dust. Scripture says, those who act in unbelief of God is because God has harden him. "Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth." Romans 9:18

Make no mistake, God is not struggling with man, He declared "the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass, I have purposed it, I will also do it." Isaiah 46:11

With all the reference given in the Scriptur for our learning, which vessel are we in? The vessel of honor or the vessel of dishonor?
---christan on 1/15/11


When you act like you can do anything you want and don't have to obey God or suffer for it, and you will just repent later, this is abuse of God's grace. Grace is NOT a license to sin. The Bible says we are to be HOLY as He is holy.
---Leslie on 1/15/11


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As I see it,
The Greatest assault on the Grace of our Lord is alive and well in the church today.
It was something that was written about long ago in the book of Jude.
(Jude vs.4)
"For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord".


Is Jesus Christ, the Lord of sin, or is he the Lord of Righteousness?
---David on 1/15/11


Praising God for Christ's sacrifice on the cross for our sins and His Grace to forgive...but demeaning and insulting those by whom we feel wronged or with whom we disagree.

Praising God for Christ's sacrifce for our sins...but acting as if that sacrifice is not quite enough unless WE...do this, repent of that, observe a certain day or ritual, obey Jewish law.
---Donna66 on 1/14/11


Give me specific ways we abuse God's grace?

1: Romans 6:1 continue in sin, that grace may abound.

2: Romans 6:15 sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace.

Good question

---francis on 1/14/11


By being independent, we can cut off God and how He would care for us. Also, our independence can keep us from being able to share with others, and then ones fail in marriage because we do not know how to relate in a sharing way. I did an e-card about starting each day fresh with God, and about not abusing ourselves > anyone can read it, in the Christianet "Pick Up Your FREE Ecard" place . . . using password JAN141323160
---Bill_willa6989 on 1/14/11


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just like the evil one's imprisonment cannot really be appreciated, no matter what you do, God's grace cannot be abused.

You can grieve the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit can be blasphemed, but God's grace is endlessly perfect.
---aka on 1/14/11


Eph. 2:8-10 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no-one can boast. For we are Gods workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

To insist upon works that God has not prepared in advance for us to do, is certainly an abuse of grace, or the denial of it.

For instance, astaining from marriage or believing that we should not eat certain foods, are works that God has not commanded of the Christian.

1Ti 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

---leej on 1/14/11


Why do you want to know them?
---Cluny on 1/14/11


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