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Free Will With Predestination

What do you think of the following idea: Free will and predestination can both be true? I think free will is an erroneous idea, but I think there are ways to have free will even when we are predestined. Ideas?

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Does God not have the right to create a vessel of honor (to demonstrate His mercy) and a vessel of dishonor (to demonstrate His wrath), even after He declares this in His Word?

"But our God is in heaven,
He does whatever He pleases."
Psalm 115:3

This is not the Arminian idea of God: for our free-willers and our chance-mongers tell us, that God does not do whatsoever He pleases, that there are a great number of things, which God wishes to do, and tugs and strives to do, and yet cannot bring to pass: they tell us, as one ingeniously expresses it: That all mankind He fain would save, But longs for what He cannot have. Industrious, thus, to sound abroad, A disappointed, changing God.
---christan on 1/23/11


CraigA - It is really NOT a matter of what Calvinists may or may not believe, it is simply a matter of what is taught in Scripture.

You do not have to like it, but God being the Creator, can do whatever He wishes with anything or anyone in His creation including that of salvation to some, and only justice to others.

Is salvation wholly of God, are do you Arminians believe it is in your hands?

You are the clay, He is the Potter but He will not turn you or anyone else away.

John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
---leej on 1/23/11


"For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness." Romans 4:3

Abraham came to believe God by his own "freewill"? Really?

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." Ephesians 2:8,9. Faith causes believe, hence justification by Faith.

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." Romans 4:4,5
---christan on 1/23/11


---They do NOT tell ANYONE that perhaps God has not chosen them! ---

Ma'am I have SEEN it in these blogs. Im not sayin every Calvinist does it but there are a *few* here who are so self-absorbed with their own election they do indeed seem to take great delight in telling others they may not be chosen. It absolutely breaks my heart.
---CraigA on 1/23/11


In the debate over free will, it's clear to me that most don't understand the nature of justification.

Abraham was fully assured that what God had promised, He was also able to perform. Therefore, it was also credited to him as righteousness (Rom 4:21-22)

Justification comes when we believe God's promise about Christ.

If justification came because we obey, turn from sin, confess, or some other action, the we could most assuredly choose to do those.

But it is impossible to choose to be convinced that a promise is true. You can't "will" yourself to believe something. Either you are convinced, or you on't believe it. That's why we're called "believers" and not "choosers"
---James_L on 1/23/11




"Predestination is not God's idea, it is a human notion. Predestination is not a Biblical notion, it is a human concoction."

"For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done." Acts 4:27,28

"Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass, I have purposed it, I will also do it." Isaiah 46:11
---christan on 1/22/11


craigA-- A problem also occurs when Calvinists are accused of unsubstantiated pride and boastfulness. I don't see it on this site (nor elsewhere)...they are no more boastful or prideful than others.

Calvinists readily say they are not "chosen" on account of any attributes of their own. They agree that repentance is undeniably a necessary part of salvation, but they say that the Holy Spirit enables repentance.


They do NOT tell ANYONE that perhaps God has not chosen them! They DO engage in evangelism, both group and individual. In fact, anyone who shows any personal interest in Christianity is considered to be "chosen".

I'm not a 5 point Calvinist myself, but think many are unjustly accused.
---Donna66 on 1/22/11


Donna66, I agree but where the problem comes in is Arminians are constantly accused of stealing Gods glory for our salvation. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

The Bible tells us that even after we have done all that is required of us, we are STILL unworthy. It is ONLY the blood of Jesus Christ that gets us into Heaven. However repentance is undeniably a necessary part of salvation. God has said he will not be mocked. While he is understanding and forgiving He knows those who mock Him and use their liberty in Christ as an occasion to sin.
---CraigA on 1/22/11


-Since God knows everything before the universe was created and is limited in no way by time or circumstance, the idea of pre-anthing is clearly the consideration of the creature, not the Creator.
---Since God knows everything before the universe was created and is limited in no way by time or circumstance, the idea of pre-anthing is clearly the consideration of the creature, not the Creator.
---

AMEN, Allan! I have noticed that at least one person who believes in arbitrary predestination on this website has verified EXACLY what you said. He claimed that if man had free-will God wouldnt know our future actions. He limits Gods cognitive ability to his own understanding and that is why he believes what he does.
---CraigA on 1/22/11


Rev3:20 Behold I stand at the door and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him and will sup with him, and he with me.

Sounds like choice to me
---dowanor on 1/22/11




Full agreement, Donna66.
---aka on 1/22/11


It's strange to me, that Christians, both in the Body of Christ, should argue so heatedly about WHOSE will enabled them them to be there. I can see both sides, but think God, not man, should receive all the credit for a new birth. Man contributes nothing to salvation.

Yet, it's obvious that man cannot submit to Christ unwillingly. And, in fact if man had no free will, he could not even be held responsible for his sins in the first place!

How to balance free-will vs. predestination is a perpetual problem. Our lives cannot be determined 100% by either one.
And, just by observation, I can't see that the "fruit" of those who take one side supasses the "fruit" of those who take the other.
---Donna66 on 1/21/11


Alan and Ginger, bless you both for seeing the truth and following after it. Jesus is our guide through this life, and he has proven to be worthy and to be wholly trusted through all things. Those whom put him first and follow after him will not be ashamed, but will have the light of life. The straight and narrow road is the path that Jesus is on, and walking together with him we will walk right on up into his wonderful kingdom, departing from this antiChrist world with all its plagues and sins and degradations. Hallelujah!
---Eloy on 1/22/11


Most Christians seem to confuse free will with freedom as is spouted by the delusional American, political view of freedom. So, they talk about freedom as the opportunity do or the opportunity to exercise choice. And when predestination is added to the chaotic mix, we can only get the befuddlement that is experienced today.

Predestination is not God's idea, it is a human notion.

Since God knows everything before the universe was created and is limited in no way by time or circumstance, the idea of pre-anthing is clearly the consideration of the creature, not the Creator.

Predestination is not a Biblical notion, it is a human concoction.
---Allan on 1/22/11


"For I am the LORD, I do not change, Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob." Malachi 3:6

"I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images." Isaiah 42:8

"Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath." Hebrews 6:17

"But this man (Jesus), because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood." Hebrews 7:24

"Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever." Hebrews 13:8
---christan on 1/22/11


Eloy, sorry to tell you but Predestination is not something God creates. In Scripture it is an action of God done beforehand, in the case of His children, before the foundation of the world. You forget to include that because if you do, as it is written in the Bible, your theory would go out the window, so you invent a new meaning to fit your theology.
Predestination is an action by God that was foreordained. Not something create in the future, or even created at all.
---Mark_V. on 1/22/11


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God doesn't want anyone to go to hell. He would be happy if everyong in the world follow him. Does that sound like predestination?

Now, on the other hand, after one is born and is trained in the way he should go, God then chooses that person to preach the Gospel - the Kingdom of God and how to get there - and help populate his kingdom.
---Steveng on 1/22/11


CraigA--//And those men that Jesus called vipers.... were those who felt they were Gods chosen and thats all that mattered.//

Yes, though they boasted of their heritage in Abraham,(which ALL Jews could claim) Jesus reminded them that THEY were those who killed the Prophets!

But mainly, it was their hypocrisy that He condemned.
Mat 23:13-15 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in....ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer:... ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
---Donna66 on 1/21/11


Before I go on-I must state my post are to find agreements-Respectably I see them.We are all subject to error-I for one refuse to let the adversary have place.
Trav has done a great job in witnessing the 12 tribes-(Knowing the difference-Two sticks)
MarkV (to my understanding) bearwitness of the predestine-call-I too do see alittle different-yet-still understood.
I also see guest and servants at the Wedding.
I will look at all regardless of division-(the adversaries tactic)with the understanding The Holy Spirit gives clarity-the Word divides with discernment-God is judge-(I don't think that day is here-yet)
--love forgives-(1Jn4:8-16,Jn4:24)
Both brothers-
I Respect.
Phil 2(all)If therefore any consolation in Christ...
---char on 1/21/11


Ten Northern tribes-lost all knowledge of their identity,Rom 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits, that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the (ethnos)(nations) be come in.
---char on 1/21/11

They are still lost to their identity. Stangers scattered by divorce. Sheep by title. Found by Christ....the shepherd.

Took liberty of changing the word above in parenthesis.

2,000 years appx, perhaps the city's are about gone over.
Matthew 10:23
But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till Son of man be come.
---Trav on 1/21/11


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Mark,

Do you honestly think the Son is different from the Father? Did you not read that the Son is IN the Father and the Father IN the Son? They are the same!

Just because the Father is spirit doesnt mean He doesnt experience emotion. He may not be able to shed tears (Jeremiah 9:1) but He showed us who He truly is in the personage of His SON!

And those men that Jesus called vipers.... were those who felt they were Gods chosen and thats all that mattered. They knew the scriptures but didnt have the HEART of God. They used Gods word to exalt themselves as his elect thinking that would save them. They did not have the heart of Jesus Christ (who IS God) and thats why they didnt recognize him when He came.
---CraigA on 1/21/11


Good post Char.
There is a difference between gentiles and the lost israelites.
Can you give me the greek words for each please so I can better understand? Thank you!!

Eloy, I agree with Alan...that is a big YES!!!
---ginger on 1/21/11


//I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.-Trav on 1/20/11//
thanks Trav,
I do see this- Lost sheep-scattered-ten tribes (Israel) migrate north-(not confusing the House of Israel with the 'House of Judah'-(Judah and Benjamin).
Ten Northern tribes-lost all knowledge of their identity,Rom 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits, that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Deu 17:6,John 8:28-30)Scribes are the descendants of the Nethinim, Kenites, and Gibeonites or Hivites,none was a true Israelite but a foreigner...
cont'
---char on 1/21/11


SORRY!!!!!!

I Wrote God earlier with a lower case G

Sorry again!
---Peter on 1/21/11


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Eloy ... Yes!
---alan8566_of_uk on 1/21/11


Once God created the world (here I speak from Freud's views, unfortunately), god also know how each of us would be treated as a child, and how much difference that would make to how we decided whether to follow God
Could that be what Jacob means? That God know from what materials (experiences) we would make the decision as to whether we would follow god? Maybe?
---Peter on 1/21/11


Aka, a simple "no" is the answer to your question. Many do not understand how they made a commitment to Christ in the first place. They know they were told to hear the gospel, or were driven to go to church, or were in a mess in their lives, or whatever the reason was that they remember. All they know is that they found themselves before the Lord hearing His word and later asking for forgiveness and for Him to come into their lives. Many others heard the same gospel but did not make a commitment. They don't know how all this happen, only that it did happen. What we are speaking of is how it did happen. As we are told to grow in the knowledge of God. Which is very critical since the right gospel is the only one that can save.
---Mark_V. on 1/21/11


Jesus created the predestination of heaven, and Jesus created the predestination of hell: those souls whom freely choose Christ and freely choose righteousness will go to the predestination of heaven, and those souls whom freely choose not Christ and freely choose sinuousness will go to the predestination of hell.
---Eloy on 1/20/11


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Elections life is predetermined-God can intercede and be totally fair on Judgment-they were justified.Rom8,
Heb 11:3Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God,so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Gods Nature speaks-Draws by Witness-there is no excuse.Jn6:44,Romans 1:Eph 1:3-4
However--"Whomsoever"...
Those given-choice. On judgment day-can not claim God caused certain things to happen in their life against their will-The path was given-They did NOT "Turn their Head" back to "straight path"--Yeshua(Son of God).

They did not resist-stayed on "crooked path".
Wrong target-Wrong mark
Gen4:15 Repentance-Remitted
---char on 1/20/11


Is65:9-through Seed-the right path is given to all mankind(adam)to choice-life or death.
---char on 1/20/11

Appears to say that but,are some scriptures that testify otherwise. Several thousand.
Here is two. Keeping in mind, GOD will do what he decides...not what we percieve is logical. Whatever he does is right.
John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
(Men don't just choose out of the blue)
Matthew 15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
---Trav on 1/20/11


so, if we do not believe in predestination (as you see it), we do not truly believe in Jesus?

yes or no will suffice.
---aka on 1/20/11


The adversary once again would love us to beleive God Himself-predestined-created some to perish.
Why? He wants His dominion.

Defeats the whole truth of Immanuel-God with us in flesh-conquers and defeats-Death.
Story Declared over and over.
Repentance and remission from God who is love.
The Elect are chosen-
as witness-to those whosoever will believe.

Chose the right path-Christ.
"Turn your head" to Yehovah.
Beginning at Yerusalem."pointing the way to completeness".

This message can only be change when the Word of God down to each letter is not understood.Resulting in
inaccurate witness.
He is aleph to Tav-that can not be changed.
---char on 1/20/11


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\\MarkV, we know the Epistles were written for the understanding, instructions and teachings only for Christians. Hence the personal introductions in each of the Epistles. It was never addressed to unbelievers.\\

I will go one step farther.

They were written to churches having particular problems.
---Cluny on 1/20/11


MarkV, we know the Epistles were written for the understanding, instructions and teachings only for Christians. Hence the personal introductions in each of the Epistles. It was never addressed to unbelievers.

"You, we, us, everyone" were reference only to Christians reading the Epistles. Indeed, there are false and true Christians out there or Christ will never declare on Judgement Day,

"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Matthew 7:22,23 - points to false christians.
---christan on 1/20/11


//"what is so wrong for God to save whom He wills? Doesn't He have that right?//
Yes.He has the right and provided the right path for the wicked to turn their heads back to Him.(Yeshua).Defined in the very sentence the word "Yisrael" "he turns the head of God".
A wicked person is seen as one lost on a crooked path while a righteous person is one who remains on the straight path
.Luke 24:47,
Ezekiel 33:11Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked [turn from his way and live:[ turn ye, turn ye] from your evil ways, for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Why?Yehovah has NO pleasure in the death of the wicked---
they must chose to turn.
---char on 1/20/11


Cont'
All souls belong to God.
Ez 18:4Behold,all souls are mine,the soul of the father-also the soul of the son is mine:the soul that sinneth,it shall die.
This World?-souls in flesh-return to Yehovah.Ecc 12:7
Eden?-mirrored the invisible Rom1:20(complete function to disfunction)Job 38:7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy...Gen3-Before seed-line-The man called adam made the choice to partake-but Eve was seduced by the-Sharp twisted words-of the adversary.
Is65:9-through Seed-the right path is given to all mankind(adam)to choice-life or death.
---char on 1/20/11


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cont'
God had and has the right to destroy all Souls-they belong to Him-but He didn't and hasn't-Yet-He is a JUST God.He is love and provided the way for all souls to Turn back-on the right path to Him.(Son)Shown through a chosen seed to mankind(adam to adam 1Cor15:45)Beginnning at Yerusalem-"pointing the way to completeness". It is written,The first man Adam was made a living soul, the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
The Elect-House of Yirael-have Forgiveness-Num2:2-3spring forth to Action because of the Lord loving kindness to help(rest of the nations).Isaiah 65:9 And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob,and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine ELECT shall inherit it,and MY SERVANTS shall dwell there
---char on 1/20/11


John 8:

41 "Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication, we have one Father, even God."

42 "Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God, neither came I of myself, but he sent me."

43 "Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word."

44 "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."
---christan on 1/20/11


Craig, you have missed the entire message yourself, because of course Jesus love for the people is explained very clearly, and just like us He despised the wicked, He called them vipers. He was as human as you and I in His incarnate state, with the same emotions. When He saw someone hurting he wanted to help then, He even cried just like us and felt the same pain that we feel and even more. He loved "us" so much He gave His life for "us." He was 100% human in His incarnate state. My question as that of Bob's and many others is the same, "what is so wrong for God to save whom He wills? Doesn't He have that right?
---Mark_V. on 1/20/11


Mar 6:48-50...He meant to pass by them, but when they saw him walking on the sea they thought it was a ghost, and cried out,for they all saw him and were terrified. So immediately he spoke to them and said, "Take heart, it is I. Do not be afraid."

predestination or choice?
---aka on 1/19/11


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---So much Scripture Truth is given to you Craig, and you resist it for some unknown reason.
---

Likewise, Mark.

-- Your description of love is not the same kind that God shows through Scripture.--

Its EXACTLY the same. Maybe when you read the gospels from now on it would help to actually look at how Jesus Christ loved sinners and felt compassion on them instead of looking upon them in disgust.

You want to know who God is? Look at his Son! If you dont believe the Father and Son are exactly the same then you have missed the entire message.
---CraigA on 1/19/11


Scripture is clear on those who disobey, but people here, Christian people at that, claim it is because of their free will, but God Word speaks against their view,

"They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do. But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for His own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light" (1 Peter 2:9-9).

And that is what we are proclaiming, "we" who were called out of darkness into His marvelous light."
We didn't walk out of darkness on our own free will.
---Mark_V. on 1/19/11


I love the scripture hopping btw, Christan.

Its the same thing that is done to prove only 144,000 people are "elect". Funny how that election changes from cult to cult based on which scriptures are thrown together.

Any man can take any 50 verses in the Bible at random and come up with a religion different from that which the core message of the Bible is.

That message is to REPENT and turn back to God and He will forgive us and restore us. Jesus Christ didnt go thru what He did for us to change that message. Dont dishonor His sacrifice.

The message will never change. REPENT and BELIEVE!
"Just wait to see what fate God has chosen for you" is not in there.
---CraigA on 1/19/11


"Submit yourselves therefore to God.Resist the devil,and he will flee from you."
(Our actions)We submit-to God-resist the devil and he flees.
OPPOSITE ACTION-one third Followed(division/Incomplete)
Gods plan? Repentance and remission.Yisrael "turns the Head" of Father,He declares "completeness" starting at Yerusalem to all nations.
Elect stands--SPEAKING TO WHOSOEVER will call upon the Name of the Lord.
Jn3:16-21-For God sent Not his Son into the world to CONDEMN the World, But that the world through him might be saved.

World consist of All SOULS
Ezekiel 18:4 Behold,ALL SOULS ARE MINE, as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine:the soul that sinneth,(ACTION)it shall die.
---char on 1/19/11


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Beresyth-beginning was the Word...John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world:if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
All souls Created whole-started with complete-Likeness.
"Turn Heads" back.
John 3:3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
1 Peter 1:23Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Praise Him for His mercy and grace.
Repentance unto Remission-We do have a choice.
Luke 24:47
---char on 1/19/11


cont'
There is still hope as long as you still have breath.

Genesis 3:15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed, it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Ecclesiastes 9:4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
---char on 1/19/11


So much Scripture Truth is given to you Craig, and you resist it for some unknown reason. I have no clue what that reason is but it is right in front of you. Your description of love is not the same kind that God shows through Scripture. He loved Israel, and destroyed all nations oppose to them. He had reasons why, for the survival of Israel, for the entry of Jesus through Israel, for the salvation of all of those who believe by faith in Jesus Christ. What was ordain from the foundation of the world was and is happening today. God saw it all in one instant. Nothing will change what He ordained. All of His actions are included in that plan. If He so wanted to use another plan, He would have done it, but choose this particular one.
---Mark_V. on 1/19/11


Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

12 "I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded."

Proverbs 16:4 "The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil."

Job 2:10 "But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips."
---christan on 1/19/11


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The only reason you think thats what that passage of scripture means is because thats how youve been brainwashed to interpret it and they used FEAR to do so.

If scripture was interpretated to say that God molests 5 year old little girls would you believe that as truth because God is sovereign? I hope not because that is EVIL.

Does it make any sense that the context of the scripture you give proves God takes delight in making men for damnation when he SPECIFICALLY is quoted as saying He has no pleasure in it?

Its your interpretation that is faulty. God is not the author of evil. He does not tempt men with evil, nor can He be tempted by it! (James 1:13) God HATES SIN! Satan loves it. You are completely backwards!
---CraigA on 1/18/11


James 4

4 "Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God."

5 "Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?"

6 "But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble."

7 "Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you."
---christan on 1/18/11


//Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have NO PLEASURE in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways, for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

While certainly God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, He will will will at the appointed time, permit the destruction of much of the human race on the day of judgment.

That view that God is the big lovey dovey in the sky that would never harm even a flea is totally without merit. He will do whatever He has chosen with His creation including permitting those who have not been called of him, to enter eternal damnation.
---leej on 1/18/11


Look yourself in the mirror and say, "You absolute fool!"
---christan on 1/18/11

"Mirror,mirror on the wall" whose the most________one of all.
The one who gets two answers for the price of one gets a bonus. P.S....and you could add pharoah to your answer.
Have you been hurt by a husband/boyfriend named Craig or is it all men in general you have a problem with?
When scripture makes your point... that doesn't seem to satisfy you, unless you have beaten your debater's face off.
---Trav on 1/18/11


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cont'-How was the Kingdom of God at hand? The King of that Kingdom was speaking.
Mk 1:15 And saying,The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand:repent ye, and believe the gospel.
"Yamin elohiym". Hand of God.
"Right hand of God"-idiom for "the strength of God.Immanuel-God with us-Word of God-Son of God-/man-Yeshua-Jesus Christ.

Matthew 25:34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Revelation 17:14These shall make war with the Lamb,and the Lamb shall overcome them:for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called,and chosen,and faithful.
---char on 1/18/11


//God never created souls to be incomplete and dishonor Him.

While true we are the clay and He is the Potter.

Ro 9:21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use?

That is why some are really beautiful people having been blessed with many blessings, while others appear to be not much more than chamber pots.

I suppose that if the clay is very moldable, He can do more in making one for His glory.
---leej on 1/18/11


God never created souls to be incomplete and dishonor Him.

God is complete-Created all souls complete---Formed flesh from clay.
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.

Plan of Salvation-Predestined before foundation of this world-In the Kingdom of God that is not of This World Jn 18:36...My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world...
Mk 1:15 ...The time is fulfilled,the kingdom of God is at hand: repent and believe the gospel

Choice-is made-2nd adam-Christ-for eternal life-quickening spirit-not just living soul-in clay Gen 3:22,1 Col 15
Ecc 12:7...spirit shall return unto God who gave it
---char on 1/18/11


"So now God glories in deciding to make some men just for the purposes of torturing them?" CraigA

Romans 9 -

13 "As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."

14 "What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid."

20 "Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?"

21 "Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?"

Look yourself in the mirror and say, "You absolute fool!"
---christan on 1/18/11


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Trav,
you'll have to provide an explanation of just how you see a decision somewhere in those verses, because they sure don't say it.
---James_L on 1/17/11

1. Read again. If he draws them....he didn't force them. He draws them like you flirted with your wife...until she was attracted. How many did you repel....both are a decision on their part.
2. Bereans searched the scriptures ....for witnesses to base a decision on. No witnesses...thumbs down on message.
3. Again, the scripture search confirms our confidence.
---Trav on 1/17/11


Trav,
you'll have to provide an explanation of just how you see a decision somewhere in those verses, because they sure don't say it.
---James_L on 1/17/11


---It pleases Him to predestine vessels of honor and dishonor, all for His Holy purpose and glory.--- Christan

So now God glories in deciding to make some
men just for the purposes of torturing them?

You absolute fool! How dare you suggest the Lord God has pleasure in such a thing. That is the most twisted version of the word of God I have even heard in my life.

Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have NO PLEASURE in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways, for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

The great falling away is here.
---CraigA on 1/17/11


Those chosen before-foundation of World--stand for His purpose-Salvation.Ez 18:4 Behold, All Souls are mine,as the soul of the father,so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.God is Complete and created complete-souls.Then formed from clay(flesh)-breathed into...Gen 2:7 And the LORD God (formed)man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.
This world is substance-
Gods Kingdom-not of this World
2 Kings 6:17Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man, and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.
---char on 1/17/11


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The drawing of Prophet Jeremiah was because,

"Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee (loved), and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." Jeremiah 1:4,5

confirming Ephesians 1:4-6

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love, Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved."
---christan on 1/17/11


I have yet to find any passage in the bible that says we choose or decide to believe the gospel.

Can anyone show any scripture which says someone made a decision to be saved? ---James_L on 1/16/11

While GOD draws those that he will.....
Jeremiah 31:3
The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.
Acts 17:11
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
John 5:39
Search the scriptures, for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
---Trav on 1/17/11


There's only One who has the free-will to do as He please, and that's God Almighty. "But our God is in heaven, He does whatever He pleases." Psalm 115:3, "Whatever the LORD pleases He does, In heaven and in earth, In the seas and in all deep places." Psalm 135:6

It pleases Him to predestine vessels of honor and dishonor, all for His Holy purpose and glory. He is a God of predestination and the greatest predestination of all was the coming of His Son Jesus Chris to die for the sins of His people. In His death He conquered sin that His people will have eternal life in Him. All predestined before the foundations of the world!
---christan on 1/17/11


--If you had the experience that the Apostle Paul did on the road to Damascus, would you be inclined to believe? While he may of had a choice,it would be totally incredible for him not to believe.
---leej on 1/16/11

Really leej? Many people witnessed Jesus raise the dead and cure people of life-long illnesses and still didnt believe. Id say thats pretty incredible for them to persist in unbelief as well. Even Thomas had to place his fingers in the holes in Christs hands AFTER he came back from the dead in order to believe.

It all depends on the hardness of a man's heart. That is why God commands us NOT to harden our heart because when he calls us to salvation we may not hear.
---CraigA on 1/16/11


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I have yet to find any passage in the bible that says we choose or decide to believe the gospel.

Can anyone show any scripture which says someone made a decision to be saved?

If you can't provide scripture, then why keep arguing it? Concede the point and stop revisiting it.
---James_L on 1/16/11


obewan//It has been said it is like a door with a sign on one side that says "whosoever will may come" and on the opposite side says "chosen from the foundations of time".

The concept that is easy to grasp is that God is sovereign and can do whatever He wishes with His creation and that for His glory.

Since salvation is wholly of God, it does not depend on us at all since the only freedom we may have is to refuse the grace offered to us.

If you had the experience that the Apostle Paul did on the road to Damascus, would you be inclined to believe? While he may of had a choice,it would be totally incredible for him not to believe.
---leej on 1/16/11


CraigA //They (free will & predestination) absolutely can co-exist.

Is it not true that one may have the will to do something but certainly not the ability?

For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice, but what I hate, that I do.

But does not predestination really have more to do with the overall plan or purpose of God for our lives?

Ro 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Eph 1:5 he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
---leej on 1/16/11


If we are free so we still are available to Satan, I would say our "free will" is not truly free, if it is not free from Satan like Jesus is. And Jesus guarantees us who obey Him, "'Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.'" (John 8:36) In sin, we were free from God > "For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness." (Romans 6:20)

But what people may mean by "free will" is that God does not dominate and force us, and that we also are to love people by not trying to possess them, but leave them free to freely obey God because we love Him.
---Bill_willa6989 on 1/16/11


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It has been said it is like a door with a sign on one side that says "whosoever will may come" and on the opposite side says "chosen from the foundations of time". Since God is all knowing and timeless, I don't think it is a concept humans can easily grasp. Will you choose to be chosen?
---obewan on 1/15/11


The predestination of the Gentiles as a people to share salvation equally with the Jews, was one of the great mysteries of GOD. If you could speak with Eve she would tell you she exercised her freewill, and ate of the forbidden tree, and had to find a new home.
---lamar_tucker on 1/15/11


Yes free will and predestination can be true.
Free will precedes or exist befor salvation. Now true salvation involves giving our free will over to the will of Almighty God! Everyone is born with free will. No one is born with salvation. When Salvation comes free will must bow out must give way to the will of God.
---mima on 1/15/11


Here's a simple statement. God uses foreknowledge benevolently according to his sovereignty. Satan can be permitted a long leash in cases to work in conjunction to harden hearts of those he already knows will perish. In such cases God is without blame because his reaching to them has already had such an effect. Pharaoh is a perfect example. His wisdom was given to Egypt through Joseph and they departed from God. The simple fact is this: there is no one God has not reached out to lovingly or God is a respecter of persons, but we know he is HOLY.
---Pharisee on 1/15/11


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We have freewill, not predestination. God didn't make us robots. He gives us a choice to follow him or to not follow him, this is our choice.
---candice on 1/15/11


We aren't all predestined to be saved. We are all predestined to have access to salvation through Jesus Christ. Whether we accept it or not is solely up to us. God created man for fellowship with him,Adam failed him as did the Jews,both with disobedience. 1 John 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you,that you also may have fellowship with us,and truely our fellowship is with the father,and with his son Jesus Christ. God wanted people to have faith and come to him with full trust. If all were predestined to be saved that would kill the purpose of Christs death as God's son to draw to God those who believe Christ is God's son who died for sins,if we believe in him as such. Trust God and obey to life or follow Satan to death.
---Darlene_1 on 1/15/11


When we become ONE with Him as the Gospel of John Chapter 17 describes, "Father, that they may be ONE as we are ONE." You still have a free will, but our will becomes His will as we grow up in Him and submit to His will for our lives. So yes, free will and predestination are both true. We can choose to sin at anytime and still do....so there's proof we still have a "Free" will...BTW, where does the word "FREE" come from? What scripture? I can't find it.
---Donna5535 on 1/15/11


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