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Water Baptism Outward Sign

Do you think water baptism is a true outward sign of an inward change to others or is the fruit of the Spirit a better indication Galatians?

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 ---aka on 1/15/11
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\\What is ironic is that the way of Jesus is right in the Bible which is available to all...... but according to the Orthodox faith, you should know that stuff and the teachings of the Orthodox elders, which is special knowledge that is not available to the common man if he/she is not in the Orthodox church.\\

It's available to everybody who is willing to come to Orthodoxy.

You seem to be reacting because Orthodox is something you've never heard of before.

And you've not answered my objection that your claim of "spiritual baptism [coming] through teaching" is gnosticism.

All you can do is simply attack.
---Cluny on 1/25/11


\\God did not send Paul to start a private cult of people personally baptized by him (Acts 26:16-18). He was called to preach the gospel and bring people to oneness in Christ, not baptize a faction around himself.\\
---Mark_V. on 1/25/11

MarkV, that was spot on. I don't think anyone could have said it better.

michael e,

I gave you a fairly detailed explanation of Acts 2. Where is your reply?

I see you're still asking more probing questions, but when are you gonna exegete something?
---James_L on 1/25/11


//Paul baptized Crispus, Gaius and the household of Stephanas//
MarkV, were these people Jew or Gentile?
Acts 2 speaks of more than one baptism. To recieve the HS they had to be water baptised.
Paul says there is "one baptism" for the age of grace.

If there is more than one, why would he say one.
This one baptism is where the believer is placed into the body of Christ and has nothing to do with water.
---michael_e on 1/25/11


cluny, you are free to twist my words in any way that you like.

What is ironic is that the way of Jesus is right in the Bible which is available to all...... but according to the Orthodox faith, you should know that stuff and the teachings of the Orthodox elders, which is special knowledge that is not available to the common man if he/she is not in the Orthodox church.

teaching the way of the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit is open to everyone who wants it (for lack of better words).
---aka on 1/24/11


Michael e, 1 Cor. 12:12-14 is spiritual baptism, done by the Holy Spirit to all who are spiritually alive in Christ, who form what God calls "The Church" which makes up the "Body of Christ." It's an act done by God the Holy Spirit.
1 Cor. 1:17 talking about water Baptism which is done by the disciples and those who were converted like Apollos, Cephas. Paul baptized Crispus, Gaius and the household of Stephanas. The verse does not mean that people should not be baptized (Acts 2:38) but that God did not send Paul to start a private cult of people personally baptized by him (Acts 26:16-18). He was called to preach the gospel and bring people to oneness in Christ, not baptize a faction around himself.
---Mark_V. on 1/25/11




James L, your 1/23/11 is so right. In 1 Cor. 1:17 there was division among many. Paul got news of that from Chloe's household. Some were saying they were baptized by one, and another by another. Paul told them he was glad he didn't baptize any of them who were dividing from each other. Paul said he was not send to baptize but to preach the gospel not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect. He baptized some but that was not what was more important, the gospel was.
---Mark_V. on 1/25/11


Aka, your right, spiritual baptism is not gnosticism. I believe that people confuse the words of Jesus when He said "unless one is born of water and spirit".
Jesus referred not to literal water here but to the need for "cleansing" (Ezek. 36:24-27). When water is used figuratively in the O.T. it habitually refers to renewal or spiritual cleansing, especially when used in conjunction with "Spirit" (Numbers 19:17-19, Ps. 51:9,10, Is.32:15, 44:3-5, 55:1-3, Jer. 2:13, Joel 2:28,29). Thus Jesus made reference to the spiritual washing or purification of the soul, and water cannot do that, but is accomplished by the Holy Spirit through the Word of God at the moment of salvation (Eph. 5:26, Titus 3-5).
---Mark_V. on 1/25/11


\\\\it is water baptism v. spiritual baptism through teaching.
---aka on 1/24/11\\\\

Saying that "spiritual baptism [comes] through teaching" is PRECISELY gnosticism.

It's claiming that those so taught have an IT (for lack of a better word) that the ordinary run of Christians don't have, and that can only be obtained from others with such special knowledge.

That's the essence of gnosticism.
---Cluny on 1/24/11


What you are suggesting is basically gnosticism. ---Cluny on 1/24/11

spiritual baptism is not gnosticism.

John the Baptist said, "I baptize you in water, but He ... will baptize you in the Spirit (spiritual immersion) and fire (purification).

to you (and your alter ego), i can believe you think it silly. water baptism necessary for salvation is based in mysticism and Judaizing.
Jesus said, "teach baptizing them in the Name of the Father, [the Silly one], and the Holy Spirit."
---aka on 1/24/11


Eze 36:27 I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes . . .

Jer 31:33 . . . I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts . . .

God baptizes (injects) real Christians with His Spirit so they will know His law in their hearts, and are able to obey Him.

No one can obey God without His Spirit within them. The lack of obedience to God shows that He has not given them His Spirit (i.e., He has not said 'I do'), proving them have no covenant of marriage with Him.

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Few of the water baptised are also Spirit Baptized to enter into Marriage to the Lamb.
---aservant on 1/24/11




//MarkV//
Eph.4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

1Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body
Who is this one body and who is doing this one baptism?
1 Cor. 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize,...
Would the man sent not to baptize advocating water baptism?
Paul does say he baptized in his early ministry, as he went to the Jew first, can you check out who he baptized?
---michael_e on 1/24/11


\\it is water baptism v. spiritual baptism through teaching.
---aka on 1/24/11\\

That's one of the silliest things I've ever seen posted here.

What you are suggesting is basically gnosticism.
---Cluny on 1/24/11


God desribes our relationship with Him as a Marriage.
Is 54:5, Is 62:5, Jer 3:14, Rom 7:4, 2Cor 11:2, Rev 21:9

Our public way of entering into marriage with Jesus, and saying 'I do', is water baptism.

See His example in Mat 3:13.

God's public way of saying 'I do' is Spirit Baptism (Mat 3:16).

As in human marriage, the Groom must also say 'I do'.

Those who attend church but are not Baptised in the Holy Spirit (and have no public signs of any of the 9 gifts of the Spirit - 1Cor 12), are not real Christians because God has not yet said 'I do' to them.

Rom 8:9 . . . Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

See 1Jn 3:24, 1Cor 6:19
---aservant on 1/24/11


Mark, the issue is not baptism. it is water baptism v. spiritual baptism through teaching.
---aka on 1/24/11


Aka, I posted a part two where I mentioned that the passage of Eph. 4:5 was for Michael e. Sorry brother it did not get posted. Here it is for Michael e:

Part 2, The first part I wrote was for Aka, the second was meant for Michael.
Michel e, in the passages from v.3-6 Paul lists the particular areas of Oneness, or unity: Body, Spirit, hope, faith, baptism, and God and Father. He focuses on the Trinity. The Spirit in v.4 the Son v.5 and the Father in v.6. His point is not to distinguish between the Persons of the Godhead but to emphasize that, although they have unique roles, they are completely unified in every aspact of the divine nature and plan.
---Mark_V. on 1/24/11


\\1Cor 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to Preach the GOSPEL(1Cor 15:1-4,not a word about baptism) not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect
Paul's Gospel doesn't mention "Repent and be Baptized"\\
---michael_e on 1/23/11

You're right that Paul never mentioned water baptism as a part of the gospel. Neither did Peter.

Peter told these believers what they needed to "do" in order to be forgiven and restored back to fellowship. No mention in Acts 2 of anyone getting "saved" except from THAT PERVERSE GENERATION (v 40)
---James_L on 1/23/11


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//You asked me about Eph. 4:5//

MarkV, that was not me.
---aka on 1/23/11


//A believers public confession of faith in Jesus Christ//

i know many of 'believers' that publicly confessed their belief, but there actions after showed quite the opposite.

our flesh is not perfected after even after spiritual baptism. however, Jesus' actions done in the Spirit through us are the real pubic confession.
---aka on 1/23/11


'I confess one baptism for the remission of sins'

Nicene Creed, older than the NT, used to decided which NT books would be included

So clearly, baptism has some serious value (according to those who decided which Scripture was true)

If you reject their views on baptism, do you also reject their views on scripture?

If so, no Bible!
---Mark on 1/23/11


**//one baptism" refers to water baptism following salvation. A believers public confession of faith in Jesus Christ//
Why would you think this verse would refer to water?
Who does a believer have to make a public confession to?**

Especially, as I said, in ancient times baptism was a PRIVATE event, or nearly so.
---Cluny on 1/23/11


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//one baptism" refers to water baptism following salvation. A believers public confession of faith in Jesus Christ//
Why would you think this verse would refer to water?
Who does a believer have to make a public confession to?
---michael_e on 1/23/11


michael e,
what I'm saying is that these men were "saved" before Jesus died.

Considering Jesus was approx 30-35 years old, some would have believed before Jesus was even born.

They were justified by believing the same promise that Abraham did. Just like us (Rom 4:23-25)

After they believed the promise, it came into their midst and they rejected the Heir in which the promise is fulfilled.

You have to have some answer for what happened to a person who believed before Jesus was born, yet cried out "crucify him" at the cross.

Did they lose their "salvation", or did they need to be restored to fellowship?
---James_L on 1/23/11


wow...the difference between "except" and "however". peter and the other apostles didn't really get it until after the Spirit came. even after, Peter had struggles with Judaizing.

whatever anyone says, consistently in scripture, we see a progression from actions of the flesh to actions of the Spirit. like kathr pointed out in another question, there is a progression of covering sin to washing away sin.

jesus said to teach baptizing... the command is to teach using immersion in the Truth of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
---aka on 1/23/11


Aka, in answer to Micha answers, I hope he doesn't mind me answering, and that he has the same answer, the answer is baptism of water in John 4:1,2. Because baptism in water is something people do, which the disciples did. Baptism in the Holy Spirit is something God does that we don't see or cooperate with after we are Saved. The disciples were baptizing people in water in John 4:1,2.
You asked me about Eph. 4:5, For v. 5 "one baptism" refers to water baptism following salvation. A believers public confession of faith in Jesus Christ. V. 4 "There is one body and One Spirit, refers to Spiritual baptism by which all believers are placed into the body of Christ ( 1Cor. 11-13 ).
---Mark_V. on 1/23/11


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//Did they lose their "salvation" when Jesus died,//
In order to have been "saved" they would have had to believe Jesus was the son of God, it's clear they didn't
1Cor 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to Preach the GOSPEL(1Cor 15:1-4,not a word about baptism) not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect
Paul's Gospel doesn't mention "Repent and be Baptized"
Baptism was a Jewish work starting with Jewish priests in the OT
---michael_e on 1/23/11


michael e part 1,
what happened in Acts 2 wasn't a "program". This was a particular incident totally unique in history.

These Jews were believing in the Messiah before Jesus died, which was only about 50 days earlier.

Yet they didn't recognize Him, and were most likely part of the crowd that cried out "crucify him". Did they lose their "salvation" when Jesus died, and need to be re-"saved"? No. They needed to receive "remission of sin", and weren't going to receive the promised Holy Spirit until they got baptized in HIS name.

What happened to a Jew who was a believer before the cross, and was still alive after? Acts 2 is the answer.
---James_L on 1/22/11


michael e part 2,
In 1 Cor 1:14-17, Paul wasn't making a definitive proclamation of a departure from a certain "program".

Paul's attitude toward baptism is in regard to division in the church at Corinth, which was laden with all manner of problems.

It was common for a teacher to baptize his own disciples. Instead of reading verses 14-17, back up to verse 11. What he's saying on one hand is "I don't care who baptized you, you're all followers of Christ"

On the other hand, he is stating that he was not called to baptize. In other words, he was not called to raise up disciples, but to spread the word. Not a Pastor, but an evangelist.
---James_L on 1/23/11


michael e part 2,
In 1 Cor 1:14-17, Paul wasn't making a definitive proclamation of a departure from a certain "program".

Paul's attitude toward baptism is in regard to division in the church at Corinth, which was laden with all manner of problems.

It was common for a teacher to baptize his own disciples. Instead of reading verses 14-17, back up to verse 11. What he's saying on one hand is "I don't care who baptized you, you're all followers of Christ"

On the other hand, he is stating that he was not called to baptize. In other words, he was not called to raise up disciples, but to spread the word. Not a Pastor, but an evangelist.
---James_L on 1/23/11


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//Jews "who were already saved"//
are the same Jews Peter accuses of killing their messiah.(Acts 2:36)
Acts 10:45-48 was a significant departure from the program Peter had been working under.
All these Gentiles did to receive the HS was believe, different than the previous requirement of the prior baptism of repentance (Acts 2:38). Peter then quickly baptizes them, asking, "Can any man forbid water that these should not be baptized?" water baptism wasn't functioning in the same way it had previous with Israel.
Paul's attitude toward baptism reflects a change:
(I Cor. 1:14-17).

If Paul was working under the commission given to the 12 he could never have said this
---michael_e on 1/22/11


//Micha gave Eph. 4:5 which is of water//
Mark_V.where do you see water in this verse?
---michael_e on 1/22/11


Mat 3:11a,c I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but...he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:
Act 11:15-16 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water, but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
1Co 3:13-15 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire, and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.
---micha9344 on 1/22/11


in fact, it was John the Baptist who told the Pharisees that Jesus came to baptize with Spirit and fire. So, when the Pharisees heard, Jesus beat feet. They were probably trying to nail Him with something else.
---aka on 1/22/11


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thank you, micha9344.

but, baptized with (in) what?

it does not specifically say.

But, specifically, it says that He did immerse them in knowledge of Him, His Father, and the Spirit. But I still have no proof that He did baptize with water.
---aka on 1/22/11


John 4:1 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,
John 4:2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)
---micha9344 on 1/22/11


michael e,
I already told why the difference. But true to form, your default response is to pepper someone with more quesitons without offering any explanation yourself.

Maybe you don't have an answer because you haven't watched enough Les Feldick t.v. teachings.

But, just to make a brief comparison, those Jews in Acts 2 were already "saved" before the day of Pentecost, so the command was given for those believers to gain temporal forgiveness of sin (through baptism) and to receive the Holy Spirit (through faith in Christ).

Acts 10 were people who were un-"saved" so they didn't need the same type of temporal forgiveness. They received the Holy Spirit through faith in Jesus.
---James_L on 1/22/11


en (Greek) in, with

I baptize you with (in) water...

He came to baptize you with (in) Spirit and fire...

Teach...baptizing in (with) the authority of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit...

The difference is the prophecy of Joel as spoken by Peter in Acts 2:16.

Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
---aka on 1/22/11


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Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
1. Repent 2. Baptism 3. Holy Ghost
Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word

47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

1. Heard the Word 2. Holy Ghost 3. Baptism

Why the difference?
---michael_e on 1/22/11


discussions about baptism always assumes baptism means baptism in water. john the baptist made a clear distinction. john said Jesus came to baptize in HS and fire, doesn't that mean when Jesus says to be baptized, he means he will baptize you in HS and fire? why do we keep going backwards?

fulfilled baptism is not of man it is of the Spirit, and it was not available until Jesus completed his mission (with resurrection) and sent the Spirit.

is their record of Jesus ever water baptizing anyone?
---aka on 1/22/11


michael e, part 2
In 10:2, Cornelius was described as a different "devout" (eusebes) meaning "devoted". The only other usage in Acts is in 10:7, of the soldier who went to Joppa to look for Peter. It is very clear from the account that none of these men were born again until they heard Peter preach the gospel "everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins" (10:43).

The temporal forgiveness of the Jews in chapter 2 would only be given if they were baptized in Jesus' name. That would immediately separate them from the unbelieving Jews.

In both cases, baptism effected the grace of a clear conscience (1 Peter 3:21) from past sins.
---James_L on 1/21/11


michael e, part 1:
The difference between ch. 2 & 10 is that in chapter 2, Peter is preaching to Jews who were already justified before Jesus died on the cross.

In v. 5 they were called "devout" (eulabes) Jews, meaning inwardly pious. The word was used only 4 times in NT, and only of believers.

These believers had been active in crucifying (v. 36) the very Messiah they had faith in.

They had two commands, which obtained for them two separate benefits.

A change of mind (repent) about Jesus would bring the Holy Spirit, but only after they were baptized in Jesus' name in order to receive forgiveness for the heinous sin of participating in the crucifixion of their own Messiah
---James_L on 1/21/11


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/The last two "verses" (that's why I wrote Acts 10:45-???) were meant to show what michael e's "bible" must say.//
James L, My Bible says the same thing as yours depending on what you read, maybe you can explain why what happened in Acts 10 was different than Acts 2?
---michael_e on 1/21/11


As in Noah's day 8 souls were saved by water, lit.Gk: "then a before type, now baptism saves us, not a putting off of rank skin, but a good conscience up-praying up to God through resurrection of Jesus Christ." I Pt.3:21.
---Eloy on 1/21/11


James L, thanks for explanation. I was sure you were not saying what I thought you did. I believe Michael is wrong that Baptism is only for Jews. Water baptism is commanded by Jesus to all who believe, in Matt. 28:19, and spoke of baptism of water and Spirit. Micha gave Eph. 4:5 which is of water and also gave baptism of the Holy Spirit from Mark 1:8 and as you can see their are a few baptisms mentioned in Scripture even in the Old Testament. So depending on which one we are talking about we have to read the context for each baptism. John the Baptist preached a baptism of repentance to prepare the new converts to the gospel to come through Christ. Paul taught the new covenant baptism in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
---Mark_V. on 1/21/11


\\Mark 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free, and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
---micha9344 on 1/20/11\\

And just HOW does this disprove water baptism being done in the nude?

Or to WHOM it is a testimony?

Please answer.
---Cluny on 1/21/11


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//Please tell me WHERE the Bible says that Baptism is a testimony, and to whom this testimony is given.//

I have never said that
My exact quote

//Some say you are not saved unless water baptized, others say baptism is for a testimony only.//
---michael_e on 1/21/11


Mark 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free, and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
---micha9344 on 1/20/11


\\No, I am not upset, it is just sad to hear a person say Christ didn't leave enough of His inspired Word, that we would have to lean on uninspired word to interpret what He said.\\

But that's exactly what YOU are doing, michael.

Please tell me WHERE the Bible says that Baptism is a testimony, and to whom this testimony is given.

Give BCV in your answer.

Remember, Sola Scriptura is YOUR rule, not mine, and so you must be expected to play by it.
---Cluny on 1/20/11


\\James L, you did not mean what you wrote right?\\
---Mark_V. on 1/19/11

Sorry, MarkV. I didn't do the best job of making my point. I was directing that at michael e because he keeps insisting that baptism was only for the Jews.

I was trying to make the point that Peter was speaking of Gentile believers, and asking what should keep them from being baptized.

The last two "verses" (that's why I wrote Acts 10:45-???) were meant to show what michael e's "bible" must say.

There was a thread a while back in which Cluny thoroughly dismantled michael e's view of baptism, but he keeps insisting.
---James_L on 1/20/11


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//And you seem to be VERY upset that I don't roll over and surrender when you say, "Bible."//
No, I am not upset, it is just sad to hear a person say Christ didn't leave enough of His inspired Word, that we would have to lean on uninspired word to interpret what He said.
---michael_e on 1/20/11


Scriptures states that one must be born of the water and of the spirit. If we are to follow the command as instructed by Christ and follow his example then we should know that water baptism is necessary for salvation. Pual states in 1 Cor 11:1 to follow me as I follow Christ. Pual was Baptised after his conversion at the road Damascus. So too all those who are delingently seeking Salvation must be baptised.
---Disciple on 1/20/11


michael_a, there are two things you can look up on the web that will give historical verification for what I've said:

"Nude baptism"

"deaconess"

What proof do you have that baptisms were NOT done in the nude, and that they were private events, not done as a testimony to anybody?
---Cluny on 1/20/11


\\I suppose you have a book of
ancient writings, that you seem to think have so much truth, maybe you could share with some of us who think the Bible is the true word of God
---michael_e on 1/19/11\\

It is one thing to say that the Bible is the true Word of God.

It is another--and an error--so say that it's complete in itself and can be understood in isolation from the people who produced it and how they actually LIVED what it says.

But to answer your question: I DO have books of the Fathers and Church History.

And I DO have more of the truth than you do.

And you seem to be VERY upset that I don't roll over and surrender when you say, "Bible."
---Cluny on 1/19/11


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//There are plenty of historical descriptions in ancient Christian writings.//
I suppose you have a book of
ancient writings, that you seem to think have so much truth, maybe you could share with some of us who think the Bible is the true word of God
---michael_e on 1/19/11


\\ God gave me common sense and a book I can read and understand
---michael_e on 1/19/11 \\

What's the name of the book God gave you, because you clearly don't understand the Bible.
---Cluny on 1/19/11


//Remember that all wisdom is NOT found on the internet//
Agree, however, I prefer to learn from the Inspired word says over what some man thinks it says. God gave me common sense and a book I can read and understand
---michael_e on 1/19/11


\\/There are plenty of historical descriptions in ancient Christian writings.//

Spiritually inspired Christian writings from what web site?
---michael_e on 1/18/11\\

Try looking up the various writings of the Fathers.

Search "nude baptism" for a point in particular. You will see that ancient illustrations of baptism show the baptizand is naked or nearly so.

Remember that all wisdom is NOT found on the internet. And remember also that the terms of use do NOT allow posting of particular internet sites.
---Cluny on 1/18/11


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A predecessor prophesied in Matt: I (man) baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that comes after me is mightier than I...: he (God incarnate) shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and fire...

unto what? salvation!

the conjunction is 'but' not 'and' not 'then'

John 7:38 Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, 'Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.'"

Immerse in the Truth of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
---aka on 1/19/11


//This is a ridiculous question since the Bible itself does not teach that all truths//
I will take the truth of the Bible over your web-site browsing any day
---michael_e on 1/19/11


James L, you did not mean what you wrote right? Because what you said was answered by them, is not found in Acts 10:44-48. Here two baptism were mentioned, Baptism of the Holy Spirit and baptism of water. Since Peter answered with,
"Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptist who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
Through regeneration or rebirth they had already received the baptism of the Holy Spirit now they needed to get baptize in water. Jewish believers were outrage over such a blatant breach of Jewish custom. It was difficult for them to conceive that Jesus could be equally Lord of Gentile believers as 11:3-18 states.
---Mark_V. on 1/19/11


"What Bible did you find this in?
---michael_e "

This is a ridiculous question since the Bible itself does not teach that all truths (whether historical or doctrine) are contain in the Scriptures themselves (i.e.,John 21:25, 1 Thess 2:15).

Genuine historical facts (backed up from Ancient Jewish and Christian writings and modern scholarship) need not to be rejected solely on the basis that it can not be found in the pages of Scriptures.

Sorry Michael E, but your man-made philosophy is not in Scriptures and it simply foolishness.

The Holy Apostles and their Successors believed and taught that the Mystery of Holy Baptism involves water. I'll take their word above yours any day.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 1/18/11


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//There are plenty of historical descriptions in ancient Christian writings.//

Spiritually inspired Christian writings from what web site?
---michael_e on 1/18/11


\\What Bible did you find this in?
---michael_e on 1/18/11\\

I don't have to find this historical information in the Bible itself.

There are plenty of historical descriptions in ancient Christian writings.

However, the Jewish rite of Mikveh, from which Christian bapstism developed, was always a private (in the case of women after their menses) or semi-private (in the case of converts to Judaism as it still is today) ceremony.

In any case Orthodoxy doesn't go by Sola Scriptura and never did. That's your rule (which is frequently broken here), not ours.
---Cluny on 1/18/11


Acts 10:45-??? (NRSV)

The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astounded that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out, even on the Gentiles,

for the heard them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter said,

Can anyone withhold the water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we?

Then they answered unto him, "But Peter, baptism is not for Gentiles, only the Jews."

And Peter answered unto them, "Oh, yeah. I forgot."
---James_L on 1/18/11


//Since baptism was originally performed in private in the nude, and only the priest or bishop, sponsor, and deaconess for female baptizands were there//

What Bible did you find this in?
---michael_e on 1/18/11


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\\Acts 2:5
---michael_e on 1/1\\

You err, knowing neither the scriptures nor the power of God.

In the SAME chapter, St. Peter says that "Repent and be baptized" is given to AS MANY as God shall call.

St. Paul baptized people in First Corinthians. He also baptized the jailer and his family of Acts 16.

And Philip the Deacon baptized the Ethiopian eunuch.

ALL of these were Gentiles.
---Cluny on 1/18/11


Since Jesus said to baptize ALL nations, where did you get the idea that baptism is just for the Jews?
Acts 2:5
---michael_e on 1/18/11


\\Water baptism, a jewish requirement, has nothng to do with the BoC.\\

Since Jesus said to baptize ALL nations, where did you get the idea that baptism is just for the Jews?
---Cluny on 1/17/11


\\Some preach 3 baptisms, some 2 and some 1 for the current Church Age\\

The Nicene Creed says, "I confess ONE BAPTISM: for the remission of sins."

\\others say baptism is for a testimony only. \\

Since baptism was originally performed in private in the nude, and only the priest or bishop, sponsor, and deaconess for female baptizands were there, to whom was this "testimony" given?
---Cluny on 1/17/11


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Some preach 3 baptisms, some 2 and some 1 for the current Church Age.
Some sprinkle, some pour. Some immerse two times forward, once backward. Some baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, others do so in the name of Jesus only. Some baptize infants, others baptize adults only. Some say you are not saved unless water baptized, others say baptism is for a testimony only.

none of these positions agree with one another but they all disagree with those who refuse water baptism today.

Baptism is for today, just not water baptism.

Water baptism belonged to the nation of Israel. It was their door, into their kingdom. Water baptism was necessary for their salvation.
---michael_e on 1/17/11


All water baptisim is, is showing others that you accept Jesus & want to walk in his footsteps, however over time the fruit of the spirit should show from your actions, not a water baptisim.
---Candice on 1/16/11


Water baptism, a jewish requirement, has nothng to do with the BoC.

Why was Jesus baptized? He didn't need to show an outward sign, He didn't have any sin to repent of." But, He came to be a prophet, priest, and King,in order to fulfill the requirements of the priesthood, symbolically He had to experience the washing. So as He went down into that baptism in the Jordan, he symbolically fulfilled the washing of the priesthood, and at the same time He identifies Himself with His Covenant people the Nation of Israel.
---michael_e on 1/16/11


We are not mere spirits, but physical as well.

Water baptism is an effectual cause of grace that causes what it signifies because it is GOD that works through it.
---Cluny on 1/16/11


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Being baptized is an identifying act. While the fruit of the Spirit is the commission of an act.
---mima on 1/16/11


lolololololololol Good question (c: Definitely the fruit of the Spirit is "a better indication"!!! But if the Holy Spirit has a person get baptized, then the water baptism is an outward work and therefore an outward sign of the Holy Spirit. Jesus says, "whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven." (in Matthew 10:32) So, it is essential to confess Jesus before men, and this can include being baptized as part of our confession of Christ.
---Bill_willa6989 on 1/16/11


Water baptism does two primary things: 1. It is to show others the person being baptized has died to sin and is raised a new person in Christ because they have accepted Christ as Savior. 2. It's a promise from God, that as Christ was raised from the dead, so we will be raised from the dead. After baptism, a new Christian is to start showing the fruit of the Spirit. I wouldn't call the fruit of the Spirit pointed out in Galatians better than Baptism only different in that the person is to live by the fruit after they have shown by baptism they are a new person in Christ.
---wivv on 1/15/11


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