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Ordination Of Special Priesthood

Is the ordination of a special priesthood contrary to New Testament scripture?

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 ---mima on 1/18/11
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"...Jesus have more trouble with, the religious leaders of the day or those who were taken in the very act of adultery?" (Elder)

His trouble was not with religious leaders perse (and every aspect of Ancient Judaism), but with those who were hypocrites and have corrupted the Written and Oral Torah with their own traditions and interpretations of the Law.

Christ had no problem with Liturgical Services ("rigid preset programs"-Mima). It was part of Judaism, and the Early Christians worship was "liturgical" as Scriptures and the Witness of the Fathers/Ancient Christian Worship texts shows.

Mima is the one that has the problem, not Christ, the Holy Apostles, and there Successors.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 1/22/11


||Maybe you can answer this for me. Who did Jesus have more trouble with, the religious leaders of the day or those who were taken in the very act of adultery?
---Elder on 1/22/11||

And just how does having trouble with religious leaders equate with having trouble with liturgical services?
---Cluny on 1/22/11


Mimi, you were told, "The services of the Temple and synagogue were liturgical--"rigid preset programs."
Jesus attended these services and even helped lead them.
NEVER did He condemn them for being "rigid preset programs.""
Maybe you can answer this for me. Who did Jesus have more trouble with, the religious leaders of the day or those who were taken in the very act of adultery?
---Elder on 1/22/11


mima, if you only knew the ways of the Holy Spirit, you would know that the so called "Spirit-led services" are nothing more than an emotional mish-mash of what the leader wants to do right at that moment.

I pointed out the example of Jesus in attending and leading liturgical services, and you can't refute it. All you can do is attempt manipulation.

Try again.
---Cluny on 1/20/11


Part 2:

\\ By praiseing and worshiping the Lord and asking for Holy Spirit guidance, the rigid shell, that binds you will be broken. As you said to me, I say to you. Think about it!!\\

I did ask for the Holy Spirit's guidance, and He reminded me I used to be in that type of church, but I got saved.

He also told me to tell you that you are in bondage to your own mind, doing simply what you wish.

Don't shoot the messenger, mima.

You know something is amiss in you or you woudn't be resisting the wooing of the Holy Spirit's truth to you.
---Cluny on 1/20/11




Cluny let me appeal to your intellect. Your questions indicate to me, and your spirit tells you that something is amiss, something is wrong. This something is lack the Holy Spirit moving, which if in you at t this time, has no way of expression. As the kids say, if you will loosen up a little bit(perhaps by worshiping the Lord without formality) the spirit within you can be stirred up. By praiseing and worshiping the Lord and asking for Holy Spirit guidance, the rigid shell, that binds you will be broken. As you said to me, I say to you. Think about it!!
---mima on 1/20/11


Mima, A-men. That is so true.
---Eloy on 1/20/11


\\Churches that have a special priesthood usually fall under liturgy(a rigid preset program)
If a church is so liturgical that changes according to the leading of the Holy Spirit are not a possibility, liturgy has gone too far.\\

But the fixed Liturgy IS the Holy Spirit's leading, mima. Who said that spontaneity was necessarily spiritual? God is a God of ORDER, not chaos.

Something else to consider.

The services of the Temple and synagogue were liturgical--"rigid preset programs," if you like.

Jesus attended these services and even helped lead them.

NEVER did He condemn them for being "rigid preset programs."

Think about it.
---Cluny on 1/20/11


\\Jesus ordains, not man. If Jesus ordains you for a specific assignment, it is New Testament.\\

But Jesus works through people.

Someone who posts to these blogs has expressed his longing for a church of his own.

Well, were he really called by God, he would have one, right?

**Churches that have a special priesthood usually fall under liturgy(a rigid preset program)**

ALL churches, including Protestant ones, have a "rigid preset program."

The question is are we going to have a "preset program" of man's spontaneous devising, or one that God has ordained from the beggining of the Church and passed down through the Apostles and their successors.
---Cluny on 1/19/11


Jesus ordains, not man. If Jesus ordains you for a specific assignment, it is New Testament. But if only a man is ordaining you for anything at all, it is not New Testament."I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied. They say continually to them that despise me, Yhwh has said, You all will have peace: and they say to every one that walks after the stubbornness of their own heart, No evil will come upon you." Jer.23:21,17. For only Jesus calls the person out by our name and he himself ordains the person for his mission: "You all have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you." Jn.15:16.
---Eloy on 1/19/11




Churches that have a special priesthood usually fall under liturgy(a rigid preset program)
If a church is so liturgical that changes according to the leading of the Holy Spirit are not a possibility, liturgy has gone too far. A church that is too structured would never allow for the Spirits leading they already have their own "agenda", they don't need His.
These churches are not only stiff and rigid in their way but generally speaking the Holy Spirit is not welcome, nor sought after, nor catered too, in their services.
---mima on 1/19/11


At the last election of the Patriarch of Moscow, rather than choosing him by lot, as is the traditional practice, Partriarch Kyrill was chosen by combined votes of all the diocesan bishops, and clergy and lay delegates to this council.
---Cluny on 1/19/11


Not a nasty question at all, leej, though I don't know what answer you were expecting.

While the bishop has the last word about ordination, things can come to a screeching halt if the people say "Anaxios!" (Unworthy!) at an ordination. It's not pretty, and you don't want to know what happens.

Again, while the bishop has the last word when it comes to what priest is in what parish, the feelings of the faithful are considered. It's not a unilateral decision.

The election of bishops is more complicated, but usually in some way the feelings of the faithful, presbyters, and deacons are considered.

Most jurisdictions have a metropolitan/archdiocesan/diocesan council on which presbyters and laity are represented.
---Cluny on 1/18/11


Part 2--Please post:

Titus 1:5
For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:

The ordination of elders (presbyteroi) is one of the responsibilities of the bishop. Clearly Titus is the bishop of Crete, as long-standing tradition says.

And there's NOTHING here about the presbyters being elected by their faithful.

Maintaining order and sound doctrine in the local congregations is also one of the duties of a bishop.
---Cluny on 1/18/11


I understand that 1 Timothy 3:1-10 shows who qualifies to be just *considered* for ordination to pastor. People who qualify like this are quite special, I would say.

But it also is written, "nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3) So, these qualified leaders are our "examples" of how all of us can be so specially blessed and live in God's love.

So, they certainly are not meant to be separate, but ones we can personally know so we can feed on and learn from their example.
---Bill_willa6989 on 1/18/11


Cluny //What you seem to be implying here is not in fact what Roman Catholics actually believe, but what does truth matter when you talk about them?

Hope this question does not put your foot too deep into a nasty pile of, but what voice does the laity have in Eastern Orthodox church priests or other official? Are they elected or are they appointed by the existing clergy?

Really would like to know.
---leej on 1/18/11


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I don't think I would call it a 'special priesthood', but there are specific offices with certain duties outlined in the Bible.
Ordination is a word that could be used... Lots were cast for the 12th disciple.
I'm not sure how certain churches fill their offices, although I believe most are done by election.
'Presbyteros': 'elders' seem to be the counselors and are mature in their faith.
'Episkipos': 'bishops' or 'overseers' seem to look over the operations and administrations of the body.
'Poimen': 'shepherd' or 'pastor' seems to be one 'guiding the flock'. This word has been refenced to Chirst a few times in the Bible.
'diakonos': 'deacon', 'servant', or 'minister' seems to 'take care' of the flock...widows, orphans, etc...
---micha9344 on 1/18/11


\\And yes, you will probably be told that you need a mediator to get to Jesus similar to what Roman Catholicism believes with their priests.\\

What you seem to be implying here is not in fact what Roman Catholics actually believe, but what does truth matter when you talk about them?
---Cluny on 1/18/11


1 Peter 2:5,9 You also as lively stones,are built up a spiritual house,an holy priesthood,to offer up spiritual sacrifices,acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. But you are a choosen generation,a royal priesthood,an holy nation,a peculiar people,that you should show forth the praises of him who has called you out of darkness into his marvelious light. There doesn't have to be any special priesthood ordination to make one a priest,for we are all priests of God fully ordained by God himself when we accept Christ and obey the Word,to serve in the fulness of God's call upon us for service to him. Denominations ordain to comply with their own bylaws,according to their traditions,and so that person can practice freely in said denomination.
---Darlene_1 on 1/18/11


No. The New Testament shows us a hierarchical Church system (with Bishops, Presbyters [Priests], Deacons, etc, as the "clergy").

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 1/18/11


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No.

It's only because there is grace in the priestly people of God that the ordained ministry of deacon, presbyter (whence the word "priest"), and bishop makes any sense.
---Cluny on 1/18/11


Do you mean like the priesthood of Aaronic or Melchizedek priestoods as expressed in the Mormon religion?

If so, then I would reject such special priesthood.

A priest stands as an intercessor or mediator between God and man and is not needed as Jesus is our only mediator.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

And yes, you will probably be told that you need a mediator to get to Jesus similar to what Roman Catholicism believes with their priests.

The New Testament mentions only the priesthood of believers.
---leej on 1/18/11


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