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Get Salvation At Death

Some churches believe in both the possibility of salvation after death and also the possibility of losing one's salvation. Talk about wild beliefs. If true a person could both gain salvation and lose it, all of this taking place after they're death! Comments?

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\\I used to skip and jump around looking for individual verses to support my beliefs.\\
---CraigA on 2/21/11

CraigA,
AMEN!!!

I was raised with a type of "compilation theology" where verses were picked out seemingly at random, and "compiled" into a total mess.

My mother used to believe that God is not 3 in one, but rather 7 in one.

She got that idea from Revelation 3:1 "the seven spirits of God" without reading Revelation 1:4 "seven spirits who are before His throne"
---James_L on 2/21/11


David, you still haven't answered my reply about Paul and Jesus saying the same things, but EMPHASIZING different teachings.

Jesus taught more about rewards through faith plus works, and Paul taught more about justification through faith alone.

But Jesus also taught about justification through faith only, and Paul taught about rewards through faith plus works.

What say you?
---James_L on 2/21/11


Just like JamesL is trying to show you, David,... if youre going to pick out verses to prove your point, make sure you have the right context.

Lots of people here pop up scripture out of context and thats why they are in deception. They have formed their doctrine in this very way! I have been there myself!! I used to skip and jump around looking for individual verses to support my beliefs.
---CraigA on 2/21/11


David, the passage in Galatians does is not talking about linage children of Abraham. Or that we become literal children. v. 6 as Paul does in Romans (Rom. 4:3) he uses Abraham as proof that there has never been any other way of salvation than grace through faith. Even the O.T. teaches justification by faith. v.7 quoted from Gen. 15:6, believing Jews and Gentiles are the true spiritual children of Abraham because they follow his example of faith (Rom. 4:11,16). Personifying the Scriptures was a common Jewish figure of speech ( 4:30, John 7:38,42, 19:37, Rom.9:17, 10:11, 11:2, 1 Tim.5:18). Because Scripture is God's word, when it speaks, God speaks.
---Mark_V. on 2/21/11


Cherry picking verses without context leads to bad doctrine.
---CraigA on 2/20/11

Craig,
We must all Cherry Pick in our replys due to the 125 word limitation.
Still...how does my cherry picking the passage, prove me wrong?
Whosoever... still means Every Person who sins is a slave to sin....Or is it the fact that he was talking to the Children of Abraham in this passage?
If so, that's a Good point!
...But who are the Children of Abraham?
(Galatians 3:7)
"Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham."


So you see Craig, Jesus was also talking to you in that passage.
---David on 2/21/11




David, you give a passage with no context for the passage. To prove your teachings of sinlessness you give (John 14:12)
"Very truly I tell you, "Whoever believes in me, will do the works I have been doing."
Jesus did a lot of works that even you cannot do. He restored limps. Have you done that? He brought dead people to life. Have you done that? He walked through walls. Have you done that? He accented to heaven. Have you done that? He walked on water. Have you done that? He also said great things, have you done them?
So, before you judge me, take the log out of your eyes and you will see your own sin. And of course you might be a nice guy, but works don't get you into God's Kingdom.
---Mark_V. on 2/21/11


David....what good works can you boast about that helped you inherit eternal life?
---JIM on 2/18/11

Jim
Have you ever read the story about the Sheep and the Goats in (Matthew 25:31-46)?
Please notice in the passage that Jesus clearly teaches that those who do Good works, are the ones who will inherit Eternal Life.
What happens to those who do not help those in need?

Mark v
How does one feed the hungry before they are born, or visit those in prison?
I know, I know, I am contextually ignorant.
---David on 2/20/11


They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.


Cherry picking verses without context leads to bad doctrine..
---CraigA on 2/20/11


Definition. You want to redefine words to suit your preconceived notions, and that doesn't work for me.
Baptize doesn't mean "dunk in water".
"Saved" doesn't mean "don't go to hell".
---James_L on 2/19/11

James
What is your definition of the word "every one" in the verse below?
(John 8:34)
Jesus replied, "Very truly I tell you, every one who sins is a slave to sin."

Notice the verse does not say, Every Jew or Every Gentile, but it says, "Every one."
Don't the words Every One mean Every person?
---David on 2/19/11


David,
Putting a verse or two in quotation marks and saying "see what it says?"
is not showing anything clearly.

You prefer only a superficial reading of the words. That, my friend, has led to more errors than thinkable. Context, David. We talked about this in the baptism blog

Also, Definition. You want to redefine words to suit your preconceived notions, and that doesn't work for me.

Baptize doesn't mean "dunk in water". It means "immerse" and CONTEXT has to determine the application.

"Saved" doesn't mean "don't go to hell". It means "rescued". From what? Context. And if there's not enough context, then don't build a doctrine out of it.
---James_L on 2/19/11




//You claim to believe in Jesus Christ, but how can you say this when his teachings are all lies to you?--David on 2/18/11/

Matt 1:23 Behold,a virgin shall be with child,shall bring forth a SON,they shall call his name[EMMANUEL],which being interpreted is,[GOD WITH US].
Died and Rose from the dead-[no claims of Michael]
Jn1:1-14,Jn20:25-30
27Then saith he to Thomas,Reach hither thy finger,behold my hands,reach hither thy hand,and thrust it into my side: and [BE NOT FAITHLESS,BUT BELIEVING]. And Thomas answered and said unto him,[My LORD and my GOD.]Jn2:19,Jn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him,[I AM] the WAY,TRUTH,the LIFE: no man cometh unto the Father, but by ME.

THE SON OF GOD can not lie-you either Believe IN HIM or you don't.
---char on 2/19/11


Well, Mima . . . Maybe you did not understand what the people meant. Also, the ones making a big show "might" not speak for everyone else.

Does Jesus require obedience, in order to be saved? We are commanded to repent and believe the gospel. We must obey this in order to be saved. Repenting includes a change of heart so we become . . . obedient ! ! ! What Jesus means by obedience is necessary, but what people understand it to mean "might" not be.

Our assurance is now > "Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment, because as He is, so are we in this world." (1 John 4:17) If we become mature in God's love, "as He is", how can we lose this, later?
---Bill_willa6989 on 2/19/11


I've shown all of you clearly written verses which support what I say, if you can not accept these verses because they do not fit into your doctrine, is there any reason to argue with you any further?
You claim to believe in Jesus Christ, but how can you say this when his teachings are all lies to you?
---David on 2/18/11


David,
Jesus and Paul didn't have different messages. Jesus was preaching to people who had the scriptures. They were supposed to already know the gospel of grace. That's what the sacrificial system signified.

Jesus was teaching them about is REWARDS. Read the sermon on the mount. It's about REWARDS. Why didn't James write about the gospel of grace? because he was writing about REWARDS. Read James 2:12-3:1.

Justification is through faith alone, as Jesus told Nicodemus. But rewards are through faith PLUS works, as Paul told the Corinthian church (1Cor 3:10-15 2Cor 5:10)

See? they did teach the same things, just Jesus focused on rewards and inheritance, and Paul focused on justfication and redemption.
---James_L on 2/18/11


Jesus also told men to go and sacrifice according to Moses law when He walked this earth.

Paul tells men not to sacrifice according to the law of Moses.

Is Paul a heretic? Nope!

The blood of the covenant had not yet been given when Jesus walked this earth teaching men. He hadnt been slain. Therefore all men were still under the OLD covenant! I hope youre reading this too, MarkV and Christan

Heb 9:16,17

For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.


It only *seems* like Paul is contradicting Jesus.
---CraigA on 2/18/11


David....what good works can you boast about that helped you inherit eternal life?
---JIM on 2/18/11


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Phil 2:12 "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling". 11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Psalm 111:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of WISDOM: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.--Based on "ACTION".
If we believe Yeshua is Lord and CONFESS-we WALK IN-CHRIST acknowledging our faith---that Jesus Christ ROSE from the Dead-[conquered death]Our ACTIONS follow OUR belief.
If we are not bearing true 'WITNESS" we will be judged for EVERY WORD/ACTION-I say seek the Counsel of God-alone-Being LIFE HE conquered death-He alone testifies of His WORD-only He knows it.WORD of God is ETERNAL.
---char on 2/18/11


David, why do you separate Christs and Pauls teachings because you simply cant see the common ground? Are you saying Paul is a heretic now and his teachings shouldnt be in the Bible? Ive heard of that cult.

Mark, Christan and I have had that discussion many times. He INCREASES your faith (Mark 9:23) which is what keeps you (1 Peter 1:5).

You do not get faith from God. That is not what Eph 2:8,9 teaches. I believe youre reading those verses out of order. Faith isnt the subject of the passage, being saved is. So "IT is the gift of God" is talking about being saved, not faith.

Please go read the "Saved Before Knowing Christ" blog.
---CraigA on 2/18/11


Craig and James
If the teachings of Grace, that which the Lord provided Paul are the way unto Salvation, why didn't Jesus Christ, the Author of Salvation teach them?
Where are the teachings of Grace in the Gospels?


If the teachings of Salvation came through Paul, why isn't he called the Author of Salvation?

Author-the maker of anything, creator, originator
---David on 2/18/11


David, those passages you gave are true. They do say what they say. But they don't say "if you want to believe"
They say, "whosoever believes" and only those will be saved. Because faith has to come to the sinner through the Word of God, and when he receives that faith, he will believe in the works of Christ. "Whosoever believes" only. And in the same sense, "whosoever does not believe" will not be saved. Why? because no faith came to him. And many who read the Word of God never receive faith. Faith is granted by God. "For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ "you should not only believe in Him" but also suffer for His sake"
---Mark_V. on 2/18/11


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Its not your works that save you. Its the presence of the living Christ WITHIN you as the person of the Holy Ghost that does the good works THRU you.

He is the vine and we are the branches. If we abide in Him and He in us, we bring forth much fruit.

I think of it as being "possessed" by God (if you will). A true thing of beauty!!! Theres nothing like the love of the Holy Spirit.
---CraigA on 2/17/11


\\It appears that Paul agrees with me, doesn't it?\\
---David on 2/17/11

It would appear that way to people who haven't read "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace." Romans 11:6

David, you give the word "saved" too narrow of a definition. "Salvation" has various aspects means.

When "saved" means "escape the fires of hell" it is through only one means. Jesus paid the price for our sins. And it is received only one way, through faith in Him.

How could Jesus say we HAVE eternal life when we believe in Him, yet to GAIN eternal life, we will be evaluated? It, too, has a broader definition than you suspect
---James_L on 2/17/11


These works have nothing to do with salvation.
Jesus does not say.. believe in me plus do this and do that and you will have eternal life.......please
---JIM on 2/16/11

Really Jim?
Are you sure... or is this something your Teachers taught you?
(Romans 2:6-7)
"God will repay each person according to what they have done."
To those who by persistence in doing good, seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.


(Philippians 2:11) "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling".

Hmmm....It appears that Paul agrees with me, doesn't it?
---David on 2/17/11


//David..Very truly I tell you, "Whoever believes in me, will do the works I have been doing."//
David...please do not muddy up the gospel of Christ. These works have nothing to do with salvation.
Jesus does not say.. believe in me plus do this and do that and you will have eternal life.......please
---JIM on 2/16/11


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Mark
There are many things we disagree on, but what I say is clearly backed with the Gospel Truth, so your disagreement is with God.

Here's another eye opener:
(John 3:16) says Whosoever believes in Jesus Christ, they shall have Eternal Life.
Many think this belief in Jesus Christ is without works, but if you read the following verse, once again you will see Jesus taught just the opposite, of what many of the churches are teaching today.
(John 14:12)
Very truly I tell you, "Whoever believes in me, will do the works I have been doing."


If one wants to be saved, don't you think it's wise to follow the teachings from the Author of their Salvation?

---David on 2/16/11


David, I said: "David, you are trying to separate the Truth, saying that what Jesus taught the disciples, is one Truth, and what Paul talked about is not Truth." and you said:
"Not exactly Mark,
but you are very close."

What you are trying to do is to pin me as not been saved because I tell you that as believers we still sin.
Now, let me say that no amount of Truth I give you will comfort you because you are sinless. Sinless people don't need to be taught. They have arrived already. I have not. I confess to that. I still struggle with sin. I love the Lord, but I fail many times. Sorry but I am not sinless. I have not been saved from the wrath to come yet, my hope is in Christ not in myself.
---Mark_V. on 2/15/11


David, you are now claiming you know what is Truth in Scripture and what is not Truth. I suppose you are the standard of what is Truth.
---Mark_V. on 2/14/11

Mark
No, Jesus is the standard of Truth.
Sorry, I thought that I had already taught you that lesson.

Are you accusing me of calling Paul a Liar?
Did I ever say that Paul was a Liar?
No, but your intrepretation of Paul's letters make him appear as a false teacher, when those teachings you say are his, oppose what Jesus Christ taught.
---David on 2/14/11


David, you are now claiming you know what is Truth in Scripture and what is not Truth. I suppose you are the standard of what is Truth. Not so David. The whole of Scripture is Truth.
You tell me if I was set free from bondage of sin why do I still sin?
First, I'm not a slave to sin anymore, I have freedom. When I was in bondage, all I did was sin, since anything I did was sin, even the good things were sin, without faith in Christ, for He did not get the glory, but now that I am free, the good things I do give glory to God, but the bad that I do, I will have to answer for. For there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ. All legit children of God are partakers of chastening. If you are not, you are illegitimate.
---Mark_V. on 2/14/11


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David, you are trying to separate the Truth, Sort of saying that what Jesus said, and taught the disciples, is one Truth, and what Paul talked about is not Truth. ---Mark_V. on 2/12/11

Not exactly Mark,
but you are very close.

Mark
Jesus, and the twelve disciples taught the way unto Salvation, and Paul taught us the way, after we have been given our Salvation,(freedom from sin that causes death).
You claim you have been set free from sin, and are no longer a slave to sin.
If this is true, you would not sin, because you have been set free of sin that causes death.
Did Israel continue to serve Pharaoh, when God set them free from their bondage to Egypt?

Mark
Who do you serve when you sin?
---David on 2/13/11


David, you are trying to separate the Truth with your answers. Sort of saying that what Jesus said, and taught the disciples, is one Truth, and what Paul talked about is not Truth. The whole of Scripture is Truth. There is only One Gospel. Many descriptive titles but one. I define them to you. Numbered them. And then gave you
Galatians 1:1-9 to show you that there is only one gospel. If you read v. 1 "Paul an apostle (not from men nor through man, but "through" Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised Him from the dead) and all the brethren who are with me"
Paul did not come of himself, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father. You are saying he has a different message.
---Mark_V. on 2/12/11


David, you also said to me:
"Mark
but your defining of the word Salvation comes from your belief that Paul is the Author of Salvation"
Why you would say that?
---Mark_V. on 2/11/11

Mark
I hope you were not offended by the comment, I was stating from simple obsevation of your posts that you site Paul as your source of reference as proof of your Salvation beliefs, and not Jesus Christ.
The reason for this is that the "Not by works, but by Grace" teachings in many churches today is not supported, the Author of Salvation.

Mark, Just so you know, I think you have a good heart.
---David on 2/11/11


Donna66 ... Indeed, Matthew does not show how to get saved.

But the narrative shows that those who were in the goat pen wondered why they were there. They thought they were saved ... perhaps following the false teaching that all you have to di is have faith, without doing anything about it.

And those in the sheepfold did not know why they were there, because they had been too busy doing the Lord's work to claim they had faith.

The passage shows that work was an inherent and essential part of faith.
---alan8566_of_uk on 2/11/11


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You have eternal life after you die. Heaven or Hell not both. When Jesus deid on the cross he washed away the spiritual penality of sin past present future. So you cannot lose salvation. The story of the rich man and Lazurath (misspell) you cannot travel between Heaven and Hell so no salvation after death.
---Scott on 2/11/11


Pedant--I slipped the word "never" in for emphasis...but I should have changed the sentance structure. How about "I see many places where Jesus doesn't mention 'obedience' at all as necessary for....

Alan of UK-- But the Matthew passage you cite, is not teaching how to be saved.
Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
People were already divided into those who do well and those who don't (or the saved and the unsaved)
Everything that follows tells of the difference between the "sheep" and the "goats".
---Donna66 on 2/11/11


\\I can't answer for for Mark, but I see many places where obedience is never mentioned by Jesus as a necessary for eternal life, but FAITH is\\

Oh, I know several.

Matthew 25, for one.

"If you would enter into life, keep the commandments." (And this means more than just the 10.)
---Cluny on 2/11/11


It was perhaps unfair of Alan8566 to pick up on it, but Donna's sentence:

I can't answer for for Mark, but I see many places where obedience is never mentioned by Jesus as a necessary for eternal life, but FAITH is

is wrong, as the word never can't be used in such a sentence

But then I am bit of a ...
---Pedant on 2/11/11


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Donna 66 ... I'm sorry if I misinterpreted your use of the word "never" ... "I see many places where obedience is never mentioned by Jesus as a necessary for eternal life, but FAITH is"

Jesus did not always mention faith ... Matthew 25 vv31-46 don't, but they show what we must do.
---alan8566_of_uk on 2/11/11


\\Tts 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost,
---Donna66 on 2/10/11\\

And if this is not talking about Water Baptism and Chrismation/Confirmation, I don't know what is.

Remember the person does not baptize or confirm himself, but RECEIVES them at the hand of another.
---Cluny on 2/11/11


David, you also said to me:
"Mark
but your defining of the word Salvation comes from your belief that Paul is the Author of Salvation"

Why you would say that? There is only one gospel. Maybe by many different descriptive titles but the same gospel.
1. The gospel of peace -Eph. 6:15
2. The gospel of Christ-1 Cor. 9:12
3. the gospel of the grace of God-Acts 20:24
4. the gospel of the kingdom-Matt. 24:14
5. an eternal gospel-Rev.14:6
Galatians 1:1-9 tells us that some people are throwing believers into confusion, but there is only one gospel. It says'
"But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other then the one we we preached to you, let him be condemned"
---Mark_V. on 2/11/11


Mat7:21-24(all)"Many will say to me on that day,'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name...Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me...you evildoers!-- everyone who hears these words of [MINE] and puts them into [practice] is like a wise man who built his house on the[ROCK].

Actions are based on what one believes.If you do not believe it was Jesus Christ-(Emmanunel-God with us) who Rose from the Dead(Mt 1:18-25,Lk 24:39 )the conernstome is still being---[rejected].

If we follow the (path) of the Word of God BACK where it came forth from-we begin within God.If we follow the Word of God(path)in motion FORWARD we end up with God.[The Rock]Dt 32(all),Is28:16

NO OTHER---SAVES and REDEEMS.Is43:10-14
---char on 2/11/11


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Alan of UK- I didn't say He
"never" did. But I would think if it was essential for salvation, that He would always mention it! He ALWAYS mentions faith...

To clarify (because there's always somebody who thinks I don't believe good works are important), I'm not sure salvation is dependent on works. I guess it also depends on what definition of salvation is.

Tts 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost,
---Donna66 on 2/10/11


Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. (Matt 7:21)

"This is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have everlasting life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." John 6:40)

What shall we do, so that we may work the work of God? Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you may believe in Him whom He has sent." (John 6:28-29)
---James_L on 2/10/11


//-the heart must be changed for sin is to be removed--David on 2/6/11///--Because of the Resurrection-Jn11:25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

If you don't believe-then- WAGES PAID(Blood shed)-does not apply.

Rev12:11And they overcame him by the BLOOD of the Lamb, and by the WORD of their testimony, and they loved not their lives unto the death.Rom6:23 For the wages of sin is DEATH, but the gift of God is Eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.Rom 5:8-9
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.Much more then, being now justified by his BLOOD, we shall be SAVED from WRATH through him
---char on 2/10/11


Donna ... OK, there are many places where Jesus did not mention obedience is necessary for eternal life.

But you can't say He never did.

Matthew in Chapter 25 of his Gospel records Jesus as being quite clear about how we should live ... and if we don't, we will be turned away.

And there will be those who do live as Jesus wants us to live, but maybe don't realise it, who will be welcomed.
---alan8566_of_uk on 2/10/11


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Neither before nor after these verses did Christ demand a person DO anything, or OBEY anything else...just hear and believe.
Was Jesus teaching half-truths? Donna66

(Matthew 7:21-24)
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles? Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from m,, you evildoers!
"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock.
---David on 2/10/11


David, you have to be specific when you ask a question about Salvation.
Salvation:
1. The broad meaning of salvation is "To be rescued from from a threatening situation" Israel was saved from their enemies.
2. Ultimate salvation means "to be delivered from the ultimate calamity of God's wrath"
3. The Bible uses salvation in several tenses, referring to God's past, present, and future work of redemption.
4. Justification is sometimes used as a synonym for salvation, at other times it is seen as one aspect in the whole scheme of redemption.
5. Salvation is of the Lord and from the Lord.

The changing of the heart happens at rebirth. Rebirth is the beginning of our spiritual life.
---Mark_V. on 2/10/11


David--I can't answer for for Mark, but I see many places where obedience is never mentioned by Jesus as a necessary for eternal life, but FAITH is. Here are just two.


Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation, but is passed from death unto life.
Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God


Neither before nor after these verses did Christ demand a person DO anything, or OBEY anything else...just hear and believe.
Was Jesus teaching half-truths?
---Donna66 on 2/10/11


David-You addressed MarkV-but-Please clarify the connection.
If one doesn't believe Jesus(as Thomas didn't)---Who--Rose from the dead conquering Death--then--how can His ACTIONS(physical resurrection-the proof He conquered death) provide-remission from repentance(salvation)If one doesn't believe?.(conunbrum)
Lk 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet,that it is I myself: handle me, and see,for a spirit hath not flesh and BONES,as ye See ME HAVE.Jn 20:25-30"My Lord and my God"---Baptism(immersed with the Holy Spirit)In the name of Jesus Christ-Emmanuel,Deut 6:4,Is43:11,Is45:23,Jn2:19,Joel2:28,Acts 2:38(all) Repent,and be baptized...in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
---char on 2/10/11


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God is eternal-Life.
He conquered Death-sent His Word in flesh--Jesus Christ-Immanuel-God with us- As His Son.(Son of God-Son of Man).
Proven through linerage-King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
Proven through the Resurrection---Yehovah's-Word-eternal--Life.

In Flesh His Actions-(Instructions and teachings) we follow.

[IF] we follow the path (Word of God)we will end up where they came forth from---God.

John1:1-15(all) IN HIM WAS LIFE, and the life was the light of men.And the light shineth in darkness, and the darkness comprehended it not.
Romans 10:10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Death and Resurrection-Repentance unto Remission-
---char on 2/10/11


\\I asked you to show me where Jesus taught that obedience to God, has nothing to do with one's Salvation.
Prove me wrong.\\
---David on 2/10/11

David, I know the question was directed at MarkV, but I'm curious what do you mean by the word "salvation"

There are about 6-7 aspects of slavation in the NT, each through various means.

One thing to look for is whether it is something we already have, or if it is future. When the bible says we have been saved or have eternal life (past or present tense) it is always through faith alone.

But when salvation or eternal life is still in the future, works are usually involved
---James_L on 2/10/11


David, I believe you defined "rebirth" Not salvation. ---Mark_V. on 2/9/11

Mark
Truly, I thank you for the correction, but your defining of the word Salvation comes from your belief that Paul is the Author of Salvation.
My definition comes from Jesus, whom the Bible says is the Author of Salvation.

Now I know you will say that is a Lie, and you will say that you believe Jesus is the Author of Salvation, but the fact that you can not base your doctrinal teachings of Salvation, on the Gospels of Jesus Christ, speaks the Truth in the matter.

I was trying to open your eyes, when I asked you to show me where Jesus taught that obedience to God, has nothing to do with one's Salvation.
Prove me wrong.
---David on 2/10/11


Even tho the one thief on the cross received his, that was under the law. Salvation by the grace of God didn't start
until Jesus went up into glory from the mount.

At the appointed time, Apostle Peter took The God given Salavation message, Acts 2 v 38 to the Jewish people First on the day of Pentecost.
---Lawrence on 2/10/11


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David, I believe you defined "rebirth" Not salvation. Rebirth is the making alive those who are dead in sin. The ultimate salvation is accomplished by Christ who "delivers us from the wrath to come" 1 Thess. 1:10. We are saved by promise, and some are been saved from the wrath to come. The Bible clearly announces that there will be a day of Judgment in which all human beings will be held accountable before the tribunal of God. It will be a day when God will pour out His wrath against the wicked and impenitent. All born of the Spirit will be save from that wrath and will go to the "Judgment Seat of Christ" where the bad things will be burn and the good things will be rewarded.
---Mark_V. on 2/9/11


Matt 18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.
We are All God's children, he created our souls-He is our Heavenly Father [whether we acknowledge Him or not].When Jesus AROSE from the Dead He HAD Defeated Death Heb 2:14-for US WHOM believe-1 Cor 15:44 (two bodies-flesh/spirit)It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and a spiritual body.'Born from Above'-means to have eternal life from God enter your spiritual body-your soul can live for ever and not perish in the Lake of Fire
"we are saved'-being- we are saved from the second death-saved from the death of our souls in the Lake of Fire (Hell).
John 3:1-7
check/balance
---char on 2/8/11


ISAIAH 45:17 But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation, ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.
( Israel in the Bible can represent Kingdom of God)

ECCLESIASTES 9:5 For the living know that they shall die, But the dead know not anything,neither have they any more reward,for the memory of them is forgotten.
---RICHARDC on 2/6/11


Mima
How do you define Salvation?
When asked, I define it as when one loses their desire to sin, this desire being removed, only when Gods changes ones Heart.

The Bible says Jesus came to remove sin from sinful man.
Since it is Evil in the hearts of men that causes us to sin, the heart must be changed for sin is to be removed.

Why can we not be saved by our works?
Because we can not change our hearts.
---David on 2/6/11


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Yes A-men Paul, abiding in Christ is the key. For we know that multitudes accept Christ, but few stay with him and bear his fruit some thirty, some sixty, and some an hundredfold. Mk.4:3-20.
---Eloy on 1/30/11


\\True, they may teach prayers for the dead that may shorten one's time in purgatory, but that has nothing to do with savlation, or going to heaven or hell\\

In fairness, the Roman Catholic Church teaches that the souls in Purgatory are in fact saved (whence the name "holy souls") but have not yet received the fullness of their reward because supposedly they are not ready for it.
---Cluny on 1/29/11


Eloy, I never heard such garbage. You not only got salvation by your own free will- works, then you lose that salvation by your free will-lack of works. Then you say the Holy Spirit of God will leave you, and the demons enter you. False teachings coming from a prophet. There is no light in you Eloy only darkness. Here's why,
"If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and "the Truth is not in you" Your claim to be sinless, condemns you.
"My sheep hear My voice and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, no one can snatch them out of My hand My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all, no one can snatch them out of My Fathers Hand"
---Mark_V. on 1/30/11


Eloy 2: By saying you can lose your own salvation you now proclaim you have more power then God because you can now take yourself out of the hands of God. Jesus said "My Father who has given them to Me, is greater than all" All means you too. He didn't say, greater then all but you. Because no one is more powerful. Jesus says, "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish" contradicting Christ because you say they do perish if they want. Making eternal life really temporary, not eternal.
The Truth is not in you Eloy, and what that means is that Christ who is the Truth is not in you. No demon spirit can be in the temple of God. That place belongs only to God.
---Mark_V. on 1/30/11


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Paul, A-men.
---Eloy on 1/30/11


Eloy

That is a great point.

Lu 11:24 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.
25 And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished.
26 Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.

I typically dont interfere in other peoples postings, but I must say you are spot on.

This is an individual that has bees SAVED and grieved the Holy spirit to the point that it departed and the wicked spirit repossessed with more forces.
God Bless, Paul
---paul on 1/29/11


Leslie:

Where did you get the idea that the Catholic church teaches that you can gain or lose salvation after you die?

True, they may teach prayers for the dead that may shorten one's time in purgatory, but that has nothing to do with savlation, or going to heaven or hell.

If you can find a reference to them teaching that, I'd love to hear it (and I'm sure a lot of others would too).
---StrongAxe on 1/29/11


Salvation after death is possible, but very rare, for usually when you expire and die your done, and you do not get another chance to come back alive and repent: though some have been known to die as sinners, but then their spirit was sent back into their body and they revived and then they repented and lived the rest of their life for God. And as for losing your salvation, baclsliding happens all the time, Christ saves a person, but then afterwards that person decides to leave Christ and go back down into the bondage of Egypt again and the last state of that person becomes seven times worse than the first. Please Read- Heb.10:38,39+ II Pt.2:20-22.
---Eloy on 1/29/11


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Keep in mind, mima, there's a great deal of difference between what YOU mean by "salvation" and what the BIBLE means by salvation.

They are not the same.
---Cluny on 1/28/11


"Do those that belong to the Orthodox Church pray for people who are dead?
---mima on 1/28/11"

And what does that have to do with your blog question? Praying for the departed (a long established tradition in Ancient Judaism and Christianity) have nothing to do with the belief that one can either gain or lose salvation after death, at least not in Orthodoxy.

FYI, Orthodoxy do not teach what the Latin Catholics called "purgatory", although what the Catholic teach officially about it is NOT what some Protestant project in this site and else where.

Understand now Mima?

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 1/28/11


mima, I see you're trying to play Holy Ghost Junior again...lol.

Whatever church teaches that is in serious error. "It was appointed unto man ONCE to die and then the judgement." That should settle your question for you.
---Donna5535 on 1/28/11


Do those that belong to the Orthodox Church pray for people who are dead?
---mima on 1/28/11


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"Name one.
---Cluny on 1/27/11

YOURS Cluny YOURS
---mima on 1/27/11"

Sources please. Provide a authoritative Orthodox source that said this.

If you had any clue about the Soteriology, (soteria, salvation, logos, discourse) of Orthodoxy, you would know that your statement does NOT fit in into our Apostolic teachings.

Mima, I rebuke you ten thousands times in Jesus' Name for bearing false witness against Christian Brothers and Sisters in Christ.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 1/27/11


\\"Name one.
---Cluny on 1/27/11

YOURS Cluny YOURS
---mima on 1/27/11\\

Once more you tell lies about the Orthodox Church, mima, because we have never taught that.

First you accused us of believing in purgatory, now this.
---Cluny on 1/27/11


Revelations 20
5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Revelations 20
* ugh 125 word max *
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
*see Romans 14:11*
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Romans 14:11
For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
---kevin5443 on 1/27/11


"Name one.
---Cluny on 1/27/11

YOURS Cluny YOURS
---mima on 1/27/11


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Jesus speaks of sins that can be forgiven in this age, and in the age to come. So apparently there is hope for at least some nonbelievers who have died.
---John.usa on 1/27/11


\\Some churches believe in both the possibility of salvation after death and also the possibility of losing one's salvation.\\

Name one.
---Cluny on 1/27/11


There is NO where in the Bible that talks about gaining or losing salvation after death. This is a Catholic belief that does NOT line up with the Bible. The ONLY thing the Bible mentions on this subject is that when you die if you have accepted Christ and repented before you die, you go to Heaven - otherwise, you go straight to Hell.
---Leslie on 1/27/11


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