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How To Obtain Righteous

The Bible speaks of righteousness. How does a person obtaining or become righteous? Do you see yourself as righteous? What are the privileges of being righteous?

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 ---mima on 2/9/11
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Thank you Mark E, for your answer. It seems to me for a long time now, the same people talk about Christ as if they knew what they were talking about. And it is the same people. Christ always has been the Begotten Son. He didn't suddenly become One. His incarnation only change the fact that He came as a man. And that as a man He restricted Himself of many of His attributes. As He is the Second person of the Trinity. Always has been and always will be. The implication that He suddenly became the Begotten Son is not Scriptural. His actions in the Old Testament prove that.
---Mark_V. on 2/18/11


Ty Mark.

Isnt God simply amazing!?

"Who am I
That the Lord of all the earth
Would care to know my name
Would care to feel my hurt?

Who am I
That the bright and morning star
Would choose to light the way
For my ever-wondering heart?"
---CraigA on 2/17/11


I think it just goes to show just how "meek and lowly" God is. Hes not even too proud to become a servant to fulfill righteousness!
---CraigA on 2/17/11

Its in John 17, one of my most favorite chapters.

John 17:5 "Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was"
---Mark_Eaton on 2/17/11


---I do not believe there was a begotten son before His Incarnation.

That would place Jesus in a lesser position to God as is teh issue with Mormons JW who believe Jesus is a lesser God and Not God!
---kathr4453 on 2/16/11

Amen Kat.

The Word was God. The Word formed the worlds. The Word was in the beginning.

The Word became flesh and was known as the "son of God". I dont have time atm to hunt for it (Im on my way out the door) but in John, Jesus asked to be restored to his former glory. In other words, He was less now than He had been for all eternity.

I think it just goes to show just how "meek and lowly" God is. Hes not even too proud to become a servant to fulfill righteousness!
---CraigA on 2/17/11


in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God .... and the Word was made flesh

The mystery of the Trinity ... the Word (the Son) existed from the beginning.

The body of the Word was Jesus, and did not exist before the incarnation, but the Word itself did.

The whole business of the Trinity is nonsense in human biological and all other terms, and inexplicable.

That's why we have different ways of expressing our belief in it.
---alan8566_of_uk on 2/17/11




Alan, here is my last comment here. I believe in Galatians 2:20 & 21, and the CROSS is foolishness to many , but to us who believe IT IS the Power of God.

I believe the Word/Logos became Flesh, as the ONlY begotten of the Father, who then God gave His only BEGOTTEN SON to die on a Cross. It was the BEGOTTEN Son who SHED His Blood, as only one who has flesh and blood can do.

You see already how Cluny likes ATTACKING and insulting here.

Now many use the term "eternal son", so if that were in fact the case, scripture would say ETERNAL SON, and would always use the term ETERNAL SON. Why change from eternal to begotten?
---kathr4453 on 2/17/11


\\I do not believe there was a begotten son before His Incarnation.\\

You're just proving what I said.
---Cluny on 2/16/11


Kathr ... I did not say you lied!!! I was making no accusation of you.

I pointed out that "The sacraments presuppose faith and through their words and ritual elements, nourish, strengthen and give expression to faith" is not the same as "sacraments conferring grace"

I then referred to the somewhat enthusiastic criticism of the RCC by some people here ...amounting in some cases to lies.

Lies are not really tolerable (except to those who make them!) whether they be against you, or me, or Warwick, or MarkV, or CraigA, or Jerry, or anyone else

We need to avoid making mistakes about others, and certainly we should steer clear of lying.

But I have never accused you of lying
---alan8566_of_uk on 2/16/11


Actually, you don't know that, either, as I can see from your remarks elsewhere on the Incarnation.
---Cluny on 2/16/11

I believe in teh incarnation ..don't you. I believe God the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary, and God being fully God before His incarnation. now became fully man as well.


I do not believe there was a begotten son before His Incarnation.

That would place Jesus in a lesser position to God as is teh issue with Mormons JW who believe Jesus is a lesser God and Not God!

Jesus as God's begotten Son SUBMITTED Himself to theFather here on earth.
---kathr4453 on 2/16/11


Alan, again, What did I say was a LIE about the RCC faith? That's all I'm asking. What did I say that twisted and is a lie and done with hatred?

I have no idea what I said that put you off. But I know whatever I said, and certainly no hate malice or any lie was intended.

Here are the differences.

Christ the HEAD of the Church
RCC the Head of the Church

Christ saves.. or does the Church save? Is my righteousness Christ's righteousness by FAITH in HIM ALONE adding nothing, OR in things, traditions, sacraments that make me righteous.
---kathr4453 on 2/16/11




\\BUT what I do know is what GOD teaches, and THAT Cluny is more important.\\

Actually, you don't know that, either, as I can see from your remarks elsewhere on the Incarnation.
---Cluny on 2/16/11


MarkV, the New Covenant is based on BETTER Promises ( not DIFFERENT promises. What are those BETTER Promises?

WHO was the Old Covenant given to? Were Gentiles under the Old Covenant to begin with?

What make you believe as a Gentile YOU were extended the Promises under the New Covenant?

And if the OC was to Israel alone, then only Israel, under the New Covenant would all be given new hearts, because they were ALL God's elect. The Pharisees insulted the Spirit of GRACE ( New Covenant) therefore one can REJECT what was initially theirs to begin with.

Weren't you a Gentile Grafted in, a WILD branch? SOOO Why the arrogance?
---kathr4453 on 2/16/11


Obviously, kathr, you know nothing about what the Roman Catholic Church actually teaches.
---Cluny on 2/16/11

I know, I know, I don't know anything about RCC teaching, or Calvin teaching or Mormon teaching etc.

BUT what I do know is what GOD teaches, and THAT Cluny is more important. When one KNOWS what God teaches, it doesn't really matter if one understands all that others teach...what matters is the ability to DISCERN truth and lie.

So when we hear a LIE based on GOD'S truth...we KNOW IT!

How do bank tellers learn to tell counterfeit bills?

Not by studying counterfeit money, but by studying handling THE REAL THING....Look it up, it's a fact.
---kathr4453 on 2/16/11


Kathr ... My original comment made here on 2/11 was to point out to you that something you said about the RCC did not agree with what the RCC said about itself.

I never said it was a lie, because it was probably said in ignorance.

But as I said there is too much RC bashing (as there is free will bashing!) here, either out of ignorance, but more often out of deliberate twisting of what another had said.

You and I have suffered that, as have many others.
---alan8566_of_uk on 2/16/11


MarkV, question. The New heart came with the Promise of the New Covenant correct. God took away the Old Covenant of works through self effort that could save no one, and promised a new heart. So teh New Heart comes with teh New Covenant.

Can you tell me WHERE in the New Covenant a new heart was given only to The elect first and only?

No where in the OT or New is such a thing taught. A New Heart comes with the GIFT of His righteousness. And God does not give anyone His righteousness BEFORE FAITH.
---kathr4453 on 2/16/11


1. They retained Rome's principal error, namely filioquism.

2. They did NOT return to the original Church, Orthodoxy, but merely added error upon error.

Both RCC and Protestanism wrong. Cluny

I do not know many Protestants who state that the HOLY SPIRIT proceeds from the son. We believe in the Trinity three person's one GOD.

The Orthodox church in Greece had a man put in jail for giving a Bible to a teenager. The Russian Orthodox murded thousands of Jews. The RCC and Ortodox place their traditions above scripture. So they have a great deal in common. Picking a small difference does not change how much alike they are.
---Samuel on 2/16/11


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\\There are those who twist God's word and add or embellish what God said.\\

People do that here all the time.

\\Your first comment here seemed to be scolding those who see the difference between RCC righteousness, and Imputed Righteousness.\\

Obviously, kathr, you know nothing about what the Roman Catholic Church actually teaches.
---Cluny on 2/16/11


Alan, rather than generalize, what was the lie?
---kathr4453 on 2/16/11


Kathr ... My first comment on this blog referred to the fact that someone had said something untrue about the RCC.

There are those here who feel that the best way of arguing their point is to tell lies about those who disagree with them.

I happen to think it is not a good idea to do that.

Would you provide false evidence against a man, accusing him of murder, when you knew his only crime was theft? That is what happens here.

And that does amount to a sort of hate.
---alan8566_of_uk on 2/16/11


13Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.

14I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.

15For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

16Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.

17For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.
---kathr4453 on 2/16/11


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Kathr, I finally agree with what you said,
"
There are those who twist God's word and add or embellish what God said."

That is what I see each day, people twisting the meanings of Scripture to their own destruction. Denying that God with His Almighty power reaches out and saves many who are heading to hell already. Who have no way of changing their own hearts unless a supernatural act of God changes it. God said, "Without Me you can do nothing"
---Mark_V. on 2/16/11


Alan, I'm not sure how to respond to your statement. Yes, there are those who twist our words.

There are those who twist God's word and add or embellish what God said.

Your first comment here seemed to be scolding those who see the difference between RCC righteousness, and Imputed Righteousness.

If stating that the only righteousness we have is the Righteousness of Christ ( ****Philippians 3*** it's no more hateful than anythign Paul stated in Phil or Gal or Romans or Eph.
---kathr4453 on 2/15/11


Kathr ... Then you have not been reading the blogs!!!

Have you not noticed the lies that have been sai about you, the ways in which your posts have been twisted and distorted?

And how that has happened to others ... those whom I have named, and others, too.

Also lies have been said about beliefs and doctrine

You are right when you say "we must tell the truth no matter who's feelings get hurt"

If we must tell the truth, why are so many lies told?
---alan8566_of_uk on 2/15/11


\\There are many differences between Roman Catholicism and Protestants.\\

Not from the Orthodox viewpoint. They are just two sides of the same coin.

As the Orthodox theologian Alexis Khomiakov said, "All Protestants are crypto-papists."
---Cluny on 2/15/11


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Well Cluny, According to a very good RCC friend who lives in NY, she thinks it's awful. It's suppose to make people feel guilty because we killed her son RE Our Sin.

However, GOD the Father in love GAVE HIS SON, and is not roaming around with a dagger in His heart laying a guilt trip on anyone.

Jesus has RISEN, and Mary knows that and saw Him before He ascended. I'm sure she rejoiced then and now!
---kathr4453 on 2/15/11


alan, I don't see any hatred here. I only see discussion. Legitimate discussion.

Is pointing out the differences hate?

I believe when someone's eternal soul is at stake, we must tell the truth no matter who's feelings get hurt.
---kathr4453 on 2/15/11


\\We don't have parades here " Our Lady of Sorrows" ) where Mary is dressed in black, holding a dagger in her heart, hunched over, representing how our sin put a dagger in Mary's heart parading down the street. \\

Actually, this is an artistic representation of Simeon's prophecy in Luke 2: "A sword shall pierce your own heart that the thoughts of many may be revealed."

In other words, what you think about Mary will affect what you think about Christ.
---Cluny on 2/15/11


Kathr ... There are many differences between Roman Catholicism and Protestants.

There is also a huge amkunt of division between Protestant denominations, as is shown here.

My purpose at this point in time is not to judge those differences ... for they all have some truth, but I don't think any is perfect!

My purpose IS to point pout that hatred between them is wrong, as is the telling of lies about other denominations, and as is telling lies about the other individuals who are contributing here.

I am not blaspheming when I say ... for God's sake stop the hatred and the lying
---alan8566_of_uk on 2/15/11


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Alan of UK -- Sorry, I mispoke about England. I knew that the struggle is between North Ireland and the rest of Ireland, since I have relatives who were "Orangemen". They eventually migrated to England.
---Donna66 on 2/14/11


\\Was the reformation a big mistake. Did so many die in vain finding independence from the RCC? \\

Yes, they DID die in vain, and for two reasons.

1. They retained Rome's principal error, namely filioquism.

2. They did NOT return to the original Church, Orthodoxy, but merely added error upon error.

\\Were the reformers wrong, or was RCC WRONG?
\\

Both were equally wrong.
---Cluny on 2/14/11


Kathr, I agree with you about it being a different culture.

I am of African, Irish and Italian Ancestry. My father was a devout catholic.

Other members of my family have turned to the other religions created by people.

I guess you can say I am "THE BLACK SHEEP" of the family because I am just Christian, which means my Salvation is in and through CHRIST and CHRIST ALONE.
---Rob on 2/14/11


Alan, I do have a question:

Was the reformation a big mistake. Did so many die in vain finding independence from the RCC?

Were the reformers wrong, or was RCC WRONG?

Who has compromised the most? RCC towards Protestants or vice versa?

What issues have changed considerably since the reformation?

If there was no reformation, would there still be inquisitions?
---kathr4453 on 2/14/11


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Donna66,
I know there are some Pentecostals who believe in eternal security. I am one of them. In an earlier post I stated "most Pentecostals that I know"

In my last post, I forgot to qualify it as in the first. Oversight on my part.

I was, however, simply trying to point out to Kathr that the official RCC teaching is that the sacraments are believed to keep one in a state of grace, as can be compared to typical Pentecostal beliefs (as I know them). Pentecostals just don't call them sacraments.

From what I've seen (in Missouri - aka misery), the less involved a person is, the more they drift from church doctrine, no matter the denomination
---James_L on 2/14/11


Donna66, The Catholic presence here (SE) is probably the same as in Colorado, and probably as laid back as well. In the NE, because of a strong Irish /Italian Settlement from the old country, there is a different feeling all together. We don't have parades here " Our Lady of Sorrows" ) where Mary is dressed in black, holding a dagger in her heart, hunched over, representing how our sin put a dagger in Mary's heart parading down the street.

Alan, do you all have that there?

It's a whole different culture.

---kathr4453 on 2/14/11


Donna66 ... You clearly know little about the problems of Northern ireland.

There is, and never has been a dispute with the majority of the population of Northern Ireland, who wished to stay part of the United Kingdom

(They had never been part of England, which is another constituent of the United Kingdom)

The Republican minority of Northern Ireland wish that NI joins with Southern Ireland ... Eire. They adopted murderous terrorism to achieve that aim.

The "loyalist" majority responded with equal ferocity.

So loyalist (mainly protestant) and republicans (mainly catholic) were killing each other
---alan8566_of_uk on 2/14/11


That Mark is not a misrepresntation, and I have never suggested it is. It is a statement of part of your belief.

But you know there has been misrepresentation on these blogs.

It has been said that the RCC elevate Mary above the level of God

It has been said that I deny the deity of God.

There have been misrepresentation about some things you have said, but you berated me when I tried to point his out.

For "misrepresntation", read "lie"

There have also been lies about what Kathr, Warwick, Jerry, Christan have said.

These lies do not dignify these discussions.
---alan8566_of_uk on 2/14/11


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alan8566_of_uk--- So all is sweetness and light now between N. Ireland and England? It's as political a divide as religious, i believe.

JamesL-- Some Pentecostals believe in eternal security.

Kath4453-- There is a strong Catholic presence in Colorado and has been for years. Main reason for this is the large Hispanic population that has always lived there.
---Donna66 on 2/14/11


trav ... I think you know you are evading my question.

---alan8566_of_uk on 2/12/11

Lets see here. Is scripture written by "Select" Prophets,Apostles and Christ himself not a better witness?
I posted scripture and asked for you to discuss. Now I'm evading? Sound like a couple of others I post with here.
We are discussing what scripture says, but you think you can flay/depose/crucify/silence the messenger. Ha.
Isaiah 8:14
And he shall be for a sanctuary, but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem
---Trav on 2/14/11


Kathr,
I agree with you that it's no small matter. I am not RCC, I have read about 80% of the Catechism, though. RCC teachings on the sacraments are really no different from most Pentecostals, who believe if we don't repent or confess a sin before we die, we'll go to hell. The sacraments are to "keep" someone in a state of grace.

I asked my mom (pentecostal) if I got saved at 5 years old, and lived 90 years in perfect obedience. Then at 95, drive a car and fall asleep. Wake up in time to see a tree and say "damn" then smack I'm dead. Where do I end up? She said "I don't know"

I was stupified
---James_L on 2/14/11


Kathr ... On thinking further, yes we do have some areas, where there is division between Protestants and Catholics.

But generally, between thinking people, that does not occur

So, I object to your statement "You all were known as being the most prejeduous of anyone, with more outbursts, etc"

And you say of the US "Hate, hate crimes ets...we never had that here between Protestant and Catholics" That is hardly shown by what is said on CN blogs!
---alan8566_of_uk on 2/14/11


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There is no misrepresentation here. Either you were saved by Grace Through faith or you were saved by your own merits.

"Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to Grace. "And if by Grace, then it is no longer of works," Otherwise Grace is no longer Grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer Grace, otherwise work is no longer work."

So that if you argue that you, out of the goodness of your heart, decided to commit your life to Christ, then it was not by Grace, it was by your own efforts and merits. Free will of sinners never saves anyone. Free will of God does. When He decides to have mercy on anyone.
---Mark_V. on 2/14/11


Alan of UK, That's why I gave the opportunity to give an answer.

Here in the US, it actually depends on where you live. The NE is die-hard Catholic, and SE a bit more laid back.

I'm not sure what the population of Catholic is in Colorado, I'm sure minimal.

But I thought many parts of the Uk were still very divided between Catholic and Protestant?? My how fast things have changed over there.

You all were known as being the most prejeduous of anyone, with more outbursts, etc.

Hate, hate crimes ets...we never had that here between Protestant and Catholics.

Catholic and RCC Yes...The Gangs of NY is about Catholic vs RCC. Horrible stuff happened.
---kathr4453 on 2/13/11


Catechism section 1127
"the sacraments confer the grace they signify. They are efficacious because in them Christ Himself is at work...to communicate the grace that each sacramnet signifies"
---James_L on 2/12/11

James_L, sorry but I have a real isssue with that statement. It completely nullifies Galatians 2:20-21.

no earthly THING represents the very Person of Christ's Grace in you, but Christ Himself. Jesus Christ DOES NOT communicate his Grace through THINGS. We're not under Law, where teh Law was a pattern of Christ, represented through THINGS.

Now CHRIST alone in you is sufficient.

That is no small matter!
---kathr4453 on 2/13/11


James ... In that case, I thank God that I am not a Bible scholar.

Perhaps the problem with some scholars is that they seek passages in the Bible that support their own particular point of view, while ignoring the rest.

Now that I can accept ... That attitude is common among all debaters, even among friends when they argue.

What is wrong here, though, is the personal character assassination that some descend to, and the gross misrepresentaion about what others say, and the determined effort to turn friends holding different views into foes.
---alan8566_of_uk on 2/13/11


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Kathr ... We have both had enough of others here making false statements about what we blieve, and misrepresenting what we say, and insisting that we regard ourselves as greater than God

Having had that experience, don't you think we should be careful about condemning others with whom we disagree (such as the RCC) on the basis of lies, or what may be lies, about them?
---alan8566_of_uk on 2/12/11


trav ... I think you know you are evading my question.

I know that I am not a physical descendant of Abraham, nor are Slavs, or polynesians, or Indians, or japenaese, or Chines or ... or... the vast majority of humans on this globe.

Did Christ come for them?
---alan8566_of_uk on 2/12/11


\\ask the RCC what they believe...my brother in law...Can anyone explain this?
---kathr4453 on 2/12/11

I have talked to many Catholics who don't know what's in their own Catechism.

There is more about faith/grace in RC Catechism than most know.

Just because someone grew up in it doesn't mean they believe like the church.

That's like asking someone in an AG church if their Systematic Theology teaches that justification is through faith alone. Most I know would say "I don't think so"

Catechism section 1127
"the sacraments confer the grace they signify. They are efficacious because in them Christ Himself is at work...to communicate the grace that each sacramnet signifies"
---James_L on 2/12/11


\\There is far more hostility and polarisation here on CN that I am used to seeing in the UK.

WE don't see the sheer hatred that is in evidence here.\\
---alan8566_of_uk on 2/12/11


Throughout the history of the church, scholars have always been pretty rough on each other.

The reason for the hostility is that everyone here is a scholar.
---James_L on 2/12/11


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kathr4453:
I am ex-RC having been raised in it from childhood.

I recall some years ago reading in a RCC newspaper an article by a priest claiming that regardless of which god you worshiped (he even suggested snake-worshiper as example), God would find a way for you to get to heaven.

I wrote to the Archbishop quoting salvation scriptures to counter that RCC view and their response was that my view was too narrow. They offered no scripture to back up their view that all roads lead to God.
---Haz27 on 2/12/11


Alan, Here we have user friendly churches and people who believe in a white washed Gospel. Let's all get along mentality. But those who have strong convictions, holding to the truth even unto death, are not popular. These user friendly people don't want such in their emergent church settings. It's bad for BUSINESS.

Looking at Paul and Peters life etc, they did not compromise the Gospel, and died rejoiceing they KEPT THE FAITH...

Paul said, be ye followers of me the way I am of Christ.....and that was not the user friendly compromising gospel. Obey or not, that's everyone's choice.

Blessed are you when men say all manner of evil against you for RIGHTEOUSNESS sake, for GREAT is your reward in heaven.
---kathr4453 on 2/12/11


Trav ... which people did He not come for? ---alan8566_of_uk on 2/12/11

Those that maketh a lie...Rev21:27And there shall in no wise enter....
Matt 15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto ...Deut 10:15Only the LORD had a delight in thy fathers to love them, he chose their seed after them, even you above all people, as it is this day.
Deut14:2thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God,the LORD hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all nations that are upon earth.
Jer 33:24Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying, The two families which the LORD hath chosen, he hath even cast them off? thus they have despised my people, that they should be no more a nation before them.
---Trav on 2/12/11


Alan of UK -- CN is not typical of the US in general!
Most protestants accept Roman Catholics (and, I think, vice versa) as "different", perhaps even "wrong" in doctrine...but it's not a big issue. They generally tolerate each other quite well. May even hold special joint services on occasion.

MOST Christians would rather NOT argue. The bitterness and vitriol expressed toward others on these blogs (especially regarding doctrine) is very rare in Christian circles. (It's actually embarrassing at times).

These posts take the controversies that do exist (and quite a few that probably don't exist elsewhere) and MAGNIFY or exaggerate them greatly!
---Donna66 on 2/12/11


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Kathr ... I suppose it sepends on where you live. Are you in the uS?

There is far more hostility and polarisation here on CN that I am used to seeing in the UK.

WE don't see the sheer hatred that is in evidence here.
---alan8566_of_uk on 2/12/11


Romans 5
1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

2By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.


We don't earn Grace, We have ACCESS by FAITH into THIS Grace.

Stand FAST!!
---kathr4453 on 2/12/11


\\Christ makes you righteous as you follow Him through the vicissitudes of life and through Marriage?
Christ can't make you righteous without being married?\\

Not every person will receive every Sacrament.
---Cluny on 2/11/11


Alan, I believe the only fair way to resolve that issue is to ask the RCC or anyone here who is RCC what they believe about someone who does not believe or partake of the 7 sacraments or attend the Catholic Church. Are they STILL RIGHTEOUS? going to heaven? Enjoy God's Grace?

You know my brother in law came from a very devout RCC background, and said he never heard the Gospel of Grace in the Catholic Church. He's now saved/Born Again and does not attend an RCC Church. His family and children are now called heathens by his RCC family.

Can anyone explain this?
---kathr4453 on 2/12/11


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Kathr & others

See what the Catholic church says about the Sacraments ... " The sacraments presuppose faith and through their words and ritual elements, nourish, strengthen and give expression to faith"

Now that says that the recipeint or participator in the sacraments has to have faith.

Irt's time this ignorant RCC bashing was brought to a halt.

There are legitimate concerns about the RCC doctrine, without bringing in false accusations like saying they don't require faith, or that they give Mary deity status
---alan8566_of_uk on 2/11/11


aka:
You are correct, Prov 11 refers to righteousness delivering us from spiritual death.

Although Prov 11 does say "the fruit of the righteous is a tree of life".

Yes there is a war as the flesh tries to bring us back into self-righteousness/unbelief.
Rom8 speaks of believers not walking after the flesh any longer. "And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness" Rom8:10.
---Haz27 on 2/11/11


All the grace we will ever need is received the moment a person trusts Jesus, by faith, as Savior,Eph 2:8-9.

The saving grace that is granted at the moment of genuine faith is the only saving grace Gods Word calls on us to receive. This grace is received by faith, not by observing rituals.

Saving Grace is the FINISHED work of Christ we RECEIVE as we identify in His death and resurrection Life.

So, the concept of the seven sacraments the RCC teach as "conferring sanctifying grace" is completely unbiblical.

Hebrews 10, "we are sanctified once and for all through the Body of Christ.

Col, "we are COMPLETE in Christ.

Sanctification is: Galatians 2:20-21 Romans 6-8 and Col 2.
---kathr4453 on 2/11/11


I do not disagree that there are Sacrements. Or rites of the church. My disagreement is that these trasfer of give grace. They are the outward symbols of Grace.

Concrete lessons that we need.
---Samuel on 2/11/11


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So, Cluny, Let me see if I understand this...
Christ makes you righteous as you follow Him through the vicissitudes of life and through Marriage?
Christ can't make you righteous without being married?
If the above statement is false, then so must the other things be if you try to subsitute them with the word sacrments in your previous post.
---micha9344 on 2/11/11


\\There is no mention of SACRAMENTS in scripture. \\

WRONG!

You find Baptism, Confirmation/Chrismation, the Eucharist, Ordination, Marriage, and Anointing of the Sick ALL through the NT.

THESE are the Sacraments. The Sacramenets ARE faith made concrete instead of merely being a mental act (which would still be a work, God is not fooled by lack of externals).

Would you like to try again?

Furthermore, there is no intrinsic difference between being made righteous and being sanctified.
---Cluny on 2/11/11


Proverbs 11:
"....righteousness delivers from death...The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life,"

the scriptures that are overlooked say our Spirit in us is at constant war with the flesh body that we encased.

if righteousness delivers us death, then why is the death rate 1 to 1?

His righteousness delivers our spirit from spiritual death. if our flesh became righteous it would become perfect and not die.

in this lifetime, the fruit of the righteous is the fruit of the Spirit, with which our flesh nature wars. Jesus will recognize this in a few and not find it in many.
---aka on 2/11/11


"Rom 5:19 For as by one man's (Adam's) disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one(JESUS) shall many be made righteous." After reading this scripture I am always shocked at how many people believe it is their individual obedience which gains them salvation.
---mima on 2/10/11


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I particularly like the post by---Haz27 and ---kathr4453.
---mima on 2/10/11


JESUS CHRIST declares as righteous or as if we had never sinned the second we turn to him. No sacrement is needed. If you are lined up to be shot and you turn your life over to JESUS just before the bullets hit. You will go to heaven. This is called Justification.

Dying to self and learning to live to JESUS is what we do daily. So that with our mind we serve the law of GOD. That is sanctification.
---Samuel on 2/10/11


Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
Phi 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost,
---micha9344 on 2/10/11


The Righteousness of Christ is IMPUTED immediately upon faith.

There is no mention of SACRAMENTS in scripture.

Now sanctification is another matter.
---kathr4453 on 2/10/11


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Christ makes you righteous as you follow Him through the vicissitudes of life and through the Sacraments.
---Cluny on 2/9/11


First, I think of love . . . God's love in us has His righteousness. And, of course, we have God's righteousness, by the blood of Jesus on the cross. But, practically, we have and live God's righteousness, by living His love. God's love makes us pleasing to Him in His love's "incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God." (in 1 Peter 3:4) Being holy as He is holy has much to do with being in this "gentle and quiet spirit" of His love. Without holiness, "no one will see the Lord," we have in Hebrews 12:14. This holiness comes with God's correction > Hebrews 12:1-14.
---Bill_willa6989 on 2/10/11


I am righteous in the site of God because of the blood of Jesus Christ and his call of salvation. In the flesh I am a sinner, a sinner forgiven by the mercy of God but a sinner none the less. Christians are perfect only forgiven.
---Harold on 2/9/11


Yes, Christians are righteous through Christ.

Either you are righteous OR you are a sinner. You can't be both, as the scripture below shows.

1Pet4:18
"If the righteous one is scarcely saved, Where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?
---Haz27 on 2/9/11


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Privileges of being righteous?

Proverbs 11:
"....righteousness delivers from death..."
"The righteousness of the blameless will direct his way aright,..."
"The righteousness of the upright will deliver them,..."
"The righteous is delivered from trouble,..."
"When it goes well with the righteous, the city rejoices,..."
"he who sows righteousness will have a sure reward.
As righteousness leads to life,..."
"the posterity of the righteous will be delivered."
"the righteous will flourish like foliage."
"The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life,"
---Haz27 on 2/9/11


Jesus Christ is the ONLY one who can make you righteous. All else is called self-righteousness, and is NOT of God, and will only lead to Hell. You can obtain righteousness by repenting (confessing and turning from sin) and trusting in Jesus Christ as your Savior and Lord (boss).
---Leslie on 2/9/11


Man's only hope of righteousness is Christ. It's His righteousness that saves us. His righteousness that keeps us. It is the Righteousness of Christ that is seen when we come to God. We have no righteousness without Christ.
---Reba on 2/9/11


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