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Was Mary Sinless At Birth

The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches that Mary was full of grace and sinless from the moment of her conception and thus it teaches Immaculate Conception. But the Bible says, there was only one Immaculate Conception and that was of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Which is correct?

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 ---mima on 2/11/11
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5) Both written and oral Apostolic Traditions was transmitted to the Bishops, Presbyters, & Deacons (John 21:25+Acts 20:35, 2 Thes 2:15, 1Cor.11:1, 1 Thess. 2:13, etc.

6) The acceptance of extra biblical traditions can be in Galatians 3:19 and Acts 7:53, where it is pointed out repeatedly that the Law given to Moses was not directly given to him by God, but it was given to him by God through His angels. Such a doctrine can not be found in the Old Testament, but it is found in the Jewish Talmud.

Neither Jesus Christ nor the Apostles believed only the written accounts contains God's word. Mima and Samuel decided that they will follow traditions of men above Scriptures. What about you?

In IC.XC.,
---IGNatius on 2/22/11


Absoulty Mark V. Protestantism are full of them. One such man made tradition is Sola Scriptura, to which all Protestants, to one degree to another, follow. Another one is the Sinner's Prayer and Altar Calls. Ignatius

I agree that Altar calls and the sinners praye are a Protestant church traditions. But neither one is opposed to scripture. Sola Sciptora is a Church doctrine based on what the Bible says. Just like the Trinity is a church doctrine based on Scripture.

The Orthodox have deied scriptue by making tradition greater opposing what JESUS taught against to the Pharisees who did the same exact thing.
---Samuel on 2/22/11


\\Just because something is a tradition does not necessarily mean it is right. Jesus condemned many of the traditions of the Pharisees, for example.\\

Or wrong.

The verses I listed make it clear there is a CORRECT tradition.
---Cluny on 2/22/11


"The resplendent glory of her merits, far exceeding all the choirs of angels, elevates her to the very steps of the throne of God. Her foot has crushed the head of Satan. Set up between Christ and His Church, Mary, ever lovable and full of grace, always has delivered the Christian people from their greatest calamities and from the snares and assaults of all their enemies, ever rescuing them from ruin" she must be a savior.
---Mark_V. on 2/22/11

1 Corinthians 9:22 I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
1 Timothy 4:16 Take heed to yourself and to your teaching: hold to that, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.

Is Paul and Timothy saviors?
---Ruben on 2/22/11


"Cluny, there is traditions outside of God's word, and we are warned not to be cheated through philosophy and empty deceit according to traditions of man. Col. 2:8.
2 Thess, This tradition spoken of are not of men since Paul had already mentioned in Col. 2:8 that man's tradition were wrong. " (Mark V)

Absoulty Mark V. Protestantism are full of them. One such man made tradition is Sola Scriptura, to which all Protestants, to one degree to another, follow. Another one is the Sinner's Prayer and Altar Calls.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 2/22/11




Mark V

1) The Canonicity of the books of the Bible is a tradition outside of Scriptures themselves. You accept 39 books in the Old Testament and only 27 books in the New Testament, but those are extra biblical traditions. The former being a tradition of the Pharisees.

2) Jesus condemned traditions of man, but he held certain Jewish Traditions (i.e., John 10:22, Luke 16:19-31, "Abraham' Bosom") not found in written Scriptures. Since Jesus was a Jew, he would know about the Oral Torah.

3) Saint Paul condemned traditions of man (Col 2:8) but he also relied on certain Jewish Traditions (2 Tim 2:8).

4) Saint Jude relied on extra biblical traditions as well (Jude 1:9,13).

In IC.XC.,
---IGnatius on 2/22/11


Cluny, there is traditions outside of God's word, and we are warned not to be cheated through philosophy and empty deceit according to traditions of man. Col. 2:8.
2 Thess, This tradition spoken of are not of men since Paul had already mentioned in Col. 2:8 that man's tradition were wrong. This is saying that in place of false teaching of man should come faithful adherence to the Truth. 2 Thess 3:6 is also talking about faithful adherence to the Truth. 1 Cor 11:2 is the same teachings. 1 Cor. 11:23 he is speaking about what he received from the Lord, not man. 1 Cor. 11:34 is not about traditions of man coming but more of the Lord's teachings. 2 Tim 2:2 is not about traditions of man but the gospel they had taught.
---Mark_V. on 2/22/11


\\These statements are completely false. Perhaps if you'd consult actual SDA literature, rather than your "hate SDA" websites, you might appear less foolish.\\

I heard this in two separate SDA venues:

From a series of speeches by a man (burn victim--can't think of his name, but he graduated from Andrews University) given at the local concert hall.

From the Revelation Seminars given by an SDA minister. Of course, despite their promises, when I asked him questions they couldn't answer, he stopped answering mine.

This was the same SDA minister who made the specious distinction between "eternal punishment" and "eternal punishing."
---Cluny on 2/22/11


Cluny:

Just because something is a tradition does not necessarily mean it is right. Jesus condemned many of the traditions of the Pharisees, for example.


Mark_V:

Many Biblical authors quoted authoritatively from books that are not part of scripture.


jerry6593:

Isaiah 8:20 says speech must be in accordance with "law and testimony" - i.e. not contradicting the Bible. This is a far cry from saying that anything NOT in the Bible is wrong. Even with sola scriptura, how does one know WHICH books are scripture? The decisions as to which books to include is tradition, and one NOT in the Bible, since even though our Bibles have tables of contents, the original manuscripts do not.
---StrongAxe on 2/22/11


Here's what the NT says about tradition:


Colossians 2:8There IS a tradition after Christ.

2 Thessalonians 2:15

2 Thessalonians 3:6

1 Corinthians 11:2KJV translators were fudging here, because the same Greek word they translated tradition elsewhere.

1 Cor 11:23This is the essence of tradition. In fact, the root of the word rendered tradition is the verb here for passed on.

1 Cor 11:34bIn other words, there are unwritten instructions he will deliver (tradition) orally.

2 Timothy 2:2Again, tradition to other faithful men.

2 John 12. 3 John 13St. John says that many of his instructions will NOT be written down.
---Cluny on 2/22/11




"They have their traditions above the Bible." (Samuel)

Does not the Seventh Day Adventists follow Ellen G White's doctrines, personal interpretations, and demonic visions/dreams?

As Cluny stated, the Bible itself is tradition. The canonicity of the books of the Bible is part of "tradition". The fact that you accept 27 books in the New Testament is proof that you unknowingly follow a tradition kept by certain Early Fathers, which were deemed authoritative/inspirational by the Church (Orthodoxy) that you speak against!

OTOH, your acceptance of only 39 books is based upon a pharisaic tradition.

Face it, Samuel, you follow extra biblical and anti-biblical traditions.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 2/22/11


Mima ... You prove my criticism of the arch-anti-RCCers

There are many things over which you differ from the RCC. There are some where I too disagree with them.

But you seem to think that because you disagree with them on some issues, it is OK to lie about them as well.

Because a man stole from you, and so you have a grievance with him, would you remain silent if you had proof that he had not committed a murder?

I don't think you would, yet this is how you behave towards the RCC
---alan8566_of_UK on 2/22/11


When a person does not study the history they consider everything a lie. But here is what was written about Mary on 2/2/1849 by Pius IX, the Ubi primum" as called,
"The resplendent glory of her merits, far exceeding all the choirs of angels, elevates her to the very steps of the throne of God. Her foot has crushed the head of Satan. Set up between Christ and His Church, Mary, ever lovable and full of grace, always has delivered the Christian people from their greatest calamities and from the snares and assaults of all their enemies, ever rescuing them from ruin"
It supports what Mima said. Not only is she on the throne, but she rescues Christians from their calamities and even from ruin, she must be a savior.
---Mark_V. on 2/22/11


Cluny: "The SDA Church officially teaches that worship on Sunday is the Mark of the Beast, and that the US Government is the False Prophet with its Sunday blue laws."

These statements are completely false. Perhaps if you'd consult actual SDA literature, rather than your "hate SDA" websites, you might appear less foolish.

"Of course, the Bible is itself tradition" BUNK!

2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Mar 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

"And NOWHERE does the Bible teach Sola Scriptura."

Try Isa 8:20.
---jerry6593 on 2/22/11


Ignatius, you have constantly said:

"the Holy Bible does NOT teach Sola Scriptura. It clearly teach the opposite."

Where does the Bible teach the opposite?" Where does the Bible teach that Truth is found outside of Scripture? And if you can find it, please let us know.
For the Truth is Scripture and can only be confirm by other parts of Scripture. Jesus Himself used other parts of Scripture to confirm what He was saying, He didn't look for advice from man.
---Mark_V. on 2/22/11


The SDA Church officially teaches that worship on Sunday is the Mark of the Beast, and that the US Government is the False Prophet with its Sunday blue laws.

How's that for hate speech--to say nothing about being unpatriotic?

\\Which is why the Reject the Bible teaching of Sola Scriptora. JESUS said it is written. They have their traditions above the Bibl\\

Of course, the Bible is itself tradition, as nowhere in the text itself does it list its contents. And NOWHERE does the Bible teach Sola Scriptura.

Rather, the opposite, as I have pointed out elsewhere.
---Cluny on 2/21/11


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Mima,

Concerning Revelation 15:4, obviously, you can't distinguish between the holiness of God (his Essence) and holiness of a individual that only can be obtained with one's constant communion with God (i..e, theosis/deification) (through God's energies). Did not Saint Peter, the Spokesman of the Apostles, said that we are "partakers of his Divine Nature" (2 Peter 1:4)? Are we not called to present our mortal bodies "a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God...." (Romans 12:1)?.

We become united with God by grace in the Person of Christ, who is God come in the flesh. "All that God is, except for an identity in being, one becomes when one is deified by grace." (St. Maximos)

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 2/21/11


"the Orthodox do not have to prove anything from the Bible.,,,their authority to teach." (Samuel)

Ellen G. White and The Seventh Day Adventist sect claimed the authority to teach infallibly as well.

"Which is why the Reject the Bible teaching of Sola Scriptora"

You have yet to prove that such a doctrine can be found in Scriptures. Saying it over and over doesn't make it so, Samuel.

As I have proven lots of times in our conversation (to which you failed to answer my posts), the Holy Bible does NOT teach Sola Scriptura. It clearly teach the opposite.

But as I can see, what the word of God teach does not concern you. Like mima, you choose to be in bondage to the ways of men.

In IC.XC.,
---IGnatius on 2/21/11


\\Cluny, I believe your wrong in answer to 2 Tim. 3:16. When you say that "all Scripture" means the O.T. only.\\

You don't think the NT had all been written yet at the time St. Paul penned this, do you?

**Give some examples or have the integrity to admit it's just more of your hate speech.
---jerry6593 on 2/21/11
**

One example: An SDA minister tried to tell me that "eternal punishment" is not the same thing as "eternal punishing" when talking about hell.

Now, YOU tell me what doctrine I'm trying to found by "kecharititomenoi," or admit it's some of YOUR hate speech.
---Cluny on 2/21/11


Roman Catholics and the Orthodox do not have to prove anything from the Bible. It only a part of their authority to teach.

Which is why the Reject the Bible teaching of Sola Scriptora. JESUS said it is written. They have their traditions above the Bible.
---Samuel on 2/21/11


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"---alan8566 the Rotary and many other Catholic prayers are senseless needless vain repetitions." (mima)

And what is the Sinner's Prayer but a man made prayer, a dead work? It is a vain recitation made by those who believe salvation is obtained and kept through a prayer, a work.

"The Catholic church deifies Mary."

Never witness it myself. The official doctrines of the RCC makes it clear that "Lateria" can not be given to the Theotokos, the Saints, or Angels, but to the Holy Trinity Alone.

Once again, you lie with your lips. Repent Mima.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 2/21/11


" If there is no Scriptural basis, then it is "religious" speculation and ASSUMPTION." (Gordon)

Putting the issue of the Theotokos sinlessness aside, please show where in the Divine Scriptures is Sola Scriptura is taught.

That is your game rule, so prove it Gordon. If not, then please admit that your ideology is just a "religious" speculation and ASSUMPTION.

In IC.XC.,
---IGnatius on 2/21/11


Trav, again I do not need prophets to confirm what I had written down, for it is the Word of God that I wrote. God needs no prophets to confirm what the Spirit revealed to the writer of Scripture. My honey bunny, tells me to study the word and not be bias, she is my witness. "All Scripture" means "all". Not just part of it as you would like since you only believe the prophets and that only Israel will be saved. I believe in Christ and God's Word and that all who come by faith in Christ will be saved.
---Mark_V. on 2/21/11


\\ And if so what about this scripture?

Revelation 15:4,
" Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? FOR THOU ONLY ART HOLY : ..." Of course THIS descriptor speaks of Jesus\\

And is this same descriptor not given of ALL Christians in Roman 1:7?

7To everyone in Rome whom God loves and has called to be his holy people.

What about this scripture, mima?

**She has been given titles such as "Co-redemptrix", "Mediatrix", and "The Queen of Heaven." **

More hate speech from you, jerry.

The Roman Catholic Church has NEVER called Mary Co-redemptrix, and several popes have repudiated this teaching.
---Cluny on 2/21/11


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"the RCC call Mary Holy...." (Mima)

The Bible, Eastern Christians, and some Protestants do too!

And besides, we (Christians) are called "Holy" as well (1 Peter 2:9). You do realize that in the Old Testament, many objects and places were deemed "Holy" by God, right? Forgot those Scriptures, eh?

So what is wrong with calling the Virgin Mary "The Holy Theotokos" (as used in Orthodoxy, the Non-Chalcedonian Churches, etc)?

The only one is having a huge problem with the Theotokos is you. Your hatred towards the RCC has led you to 100% belittle her, even to the point of denying her Motherhood to Jesus Christ, despite what Scriptures teach!

In IC.XC.,
---IGNatius on 2/21/11


Where in the Bible do the Catholics find Scriptural backup that Mary (Miriam) was "sinless"??. On which Scriptural Text do they base this on?? If there is no Scriptural basis, then it is "religious" speculation and ASSUMPTION. Miriam (Mary)did not have to be "sinless" in order to qualify at being the earthly mother of YAHUSHUA (JESUS). She just needed to be...CHOSEN...by GOD. And, also be of a humble, obedient, co-operative and morally upright spirit.
---Gordon on 2/21/11


Mary was as sinless at birth as you and I. Blameless of any personal sins for she had not yet had time to sin. Guiley of have inherited the sinful nature of all mankind. The Bible says she was blessed above all other women. That blessings was from God, not of her nature. She was blessed, not different.
---Harold on 2/21/11


Mima ... the RCC does not deify Mary ... another of your lies
---alan8566_of_uk on 2/21/11

I would ask you Alan does the RCC call Mary Holy? And if so what about this scripture?

Revelation 15:4,
" Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? FOR THOU ONLY ART HOLY : for all nations shall come and worship before thee, for thy judgments are made manifest." Of course THIS descriptor speaks of Jesus.
---mima on 2/21/11


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All the O.T. did was make them wise,...
---Mark_V. on 2/21/11

You actually thought this all the way out, it is evident by your use of prophets.

Has your wife ever told you: Hunny bunny if you would just shut up and listen...you might enlightened? She hasn't? She should.
Psalm 5:9
For there is no faithfulness in their mouth, their inward part is very wickedness, their throat is an open sepulchre, they flatter with their tongue.
---Trav on 2/21/11


\\Larry ... the RCC makes it plain that they say "Mother of God" because she is mother of Jesu, who is God. They don't say she is mother of God the Father.\\

The term Theotokos, usually rendered in English as "Mother of God, has to do with who JESUS is.

It's only secondarily about Mary.

And you're right, andy. Many Protestant controversialists deliberately misunderstand what is meant by Immaculate Conception.
---Cluny on 2/21/11


Sorry Cluny, I had meant virgin birth.
I should have said that most rabid anti-Catholics say that the RCC beleives in the virgin birth. And they persist in this misrepresentation even when the RCC says it's not what they believe.

Larry ... the RCC makes it plain that they say "Mother of God" because she is mother of Jesu, who is God. They don't say she is mother of God the Father.

Mima ... the RCC does not deify Mary ... another of your lies
---alan8566_of_uk on 2/21/11


Cluny, I believe your wrong in answer to 2 Tim. 3:16. When you say that "all Scripture" means the O.T. only. Here is why, Paul in v.10 had just spoken about the doctrines he had just given them the gospel of Christ Jesus. v. 15 "and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus" All the O.T. did was make them wise, the gospel Of Jesus saved them through faith. So the New Testament is included in "All Scripture"
You are concluding that the gospel Paul had just taught them is not Scriptural. Though at the time the gospel had not been written it was becoming Scriptural as it was spoken and taught.
---Mark_V. on 2/21/11


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Clueless: "Yes, you do buy it. SDA does it all the time."

Give some examples or have the integrity to admit it's just more of your hate speech.
---jerry6593 on 2/21/11


Alan: "Why do we make so much of them?"

If her sinfulness (in conformity with scripture) were the only issue, perhaps it would not be such a big deal. But, it doesn't end there. The RCC has made official statements that Mary is alive bodily in heaven and is equal with Jesus in His redemptive office. She has been given titles such as "Co-redemptrix", "Mediatrix", and "The Queen of Heaven." As a Christian (follower of Christ), I find such concepts offensive and blasphemous.

That's why we make so much of them.
---jerry6593 on 2/21/11


alan it IS the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church that the Virgin Mary was immaculately conceived.

However, contrary to what some think, this is NOT the same thing as the Virgin Birth.

In the form defined by Pius IX in the mid-1800's, it means that the Virgin Mary, from the first instant of her physical presence in the womb of her own mother, her body formed according to the usual laws of nature, Mary was free from all stain of original sin.

As I've said now, for the third time, the Orthodox Church rejects this teaching for reasons that need not concern us here.
---Cluny on 2/20/11


Look to scripture.. ALL have sinned.. it did not everybody but Mary.. The scripture is very clear..Mary was a vessal and found Favor in the Eyes of God.. Favor does not mean sinlessness... ITs not Marys Condition that matters.. It was Jesus was born without sin.. That is requirement of His Sacrafice for us.. he was To be Sinless. No way in the bible you ever read about the condition of Mary.. It was a non issue..Even While Jesus was preaching its recording others where preaching false Gospel.. Mary is not the Mother of God.. Before Abraham was I was... Mary gave birth to the Phyical body of Jesus.. But Jesus.. created Mary.. Jesus made all things.....Mary had a purpuse. or what did you think.. Jesus was going to come from a pumpkin patch...
---kevinwynstra on 2/20/11


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---alan8566 the Rotary and many other Catholic prayers are senseless needless vain repetitions. The Catholic church deifies Mary. This Marylogy is just one of many false teachings that the RCC practices. And yes it does make a difference.
---mima on 2/20/11


This of course is more RCC ex-biblical silliness. A gas receipt has more credibility than a catechism.
Nothing born of a woman is sinless.
Adam, Eve and the Angels were made perfect and were children of a single parent, a father --thee FATHER. They did not have a mother. A father and only thee FATHER can birth or speak perfection into existence.
What does that tells us about the importance of fatherhood in God's order? We've had it backwards for aeons with the matriarchal mumbo jumbo.
The absurd suggestion of Mary being the Mother of God and sinless puts her on equal ground with the creator and is blasphemous.
---larry on 2/20/11


"The Bible is always true while Church tradition can be false. " (Samuel)

True.

Some man-made traditions include: Sola Scriptura, Pre/Mid-Tribulational Rapture ideologies, Salvation by Faith (believing) Alone, The Sinner's Prayer, Baptismal/Eucharistic Symbolism ideologies, the belief that there is only two Sacraments (mystery) of the Church (baptism and the Lord's Supper), that the Sacraments do not confer grace, Investigative Judgment, Altar Calls, the belief that the Bible only contains 66 books, and much more.

Most of these traditions of men are common in all Post-16th century Protestant sect, including yours.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 2/20/11


Many accuse the RCC of saying Mary was immaculately conceived, but I don't think they do believe that.

I think the RCC believe that Mary was sinless. I don't agree with that view. I think she did sin, and was a normal girl, chosen to carry Jesus. I think scripture supports my view.

But does it really matter if the RCC thinks Mary was sinless? Is not the 100% vital Truth the fact that the Sinless Jesus died for our sins?

All other theological arguments are quite insignificant beside that Truth.

Why do we make so much of them?
---alan8566_of_uk on 2/19/11


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\\You are attempting to make dogma out of one WORD. Sorry, I can't buy it!
---jerry6593 on 2/18/11\\

Yes, you do buy it.

SDA does it all the time.
---Cluny on 2/19/11


\\The Bible is always true while Church tradition can be false. \\

That includes such traditions as invitation hymns, altar calls, revivals, and the pre-tribulation rapture.
---Cluny on 2/19/11


\\You are attempting to make dogma out of one WORD. Sorry, I can't buy it!
---jerry6593 on 2/18/11
\\

And what dogma am I trying to make by answering your question about what made the Theotokos so special?

Be specific.

I've already said that the Orthodox Church rejects Immaculate Conception.
---Cluny on 2/19/11


The Bible is always true while Church tradition can be false.

The Bible teaches only one sinless person. He is our High Priest and Saviour. JESUS CHRIST.
---Samuel on 2/18/11


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2 TIMOTHY 3:16 ALL scripture is given by inspiration of GOD, and is profitable for doctriine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righeousness:.\\
If you really believe this, then you will NOT accept the NT, as it was not written when Jesus said this. ---Cluny on 2/14/11

Now that is serving up some meat. Nice piece of cooking Cluny.
It is also what is missing here. The fire is hot...but there no meat on the grill.

All the searchers,and no one utilizing the Old Testament.
You accurately pointed out that if what is being said in the New is not supported/witnessed in the Old....it's a condiment awaiting meat. New Covenant fulfilling/complementing the Old.
---Trav on 2/18/11


Cluny: "Isn't that sufficient?"

No! We routinely condemn others for making a religion out of one Bible verse, while rejecting the entirety of scriptural texts to the contrary. You are attempting to make dogma out of one WORD. Sorry, I can't buy it!
---jerry6593 on 2/18/11


\\ What made her different from the rest of the human race?
---jerry6593 on 2/16/11
\\

She's the only person the NT calls "kecharitomenoi." Isn't that sufficient?

BTW--the root of this word, CHARIS, is translated "grace" elsewhere in the KJV. Its rendering of the word in Luke 1 as "thou that art highly favored" is one of many examples of its fudging the translation.
---Cluny on 2/17/11


Ruben: "The point I was making is there are exceptions: Jesus, Adam and Eve. Which means "All" in Romans does not mean ALL..."

No, if you'll check your Bible, Adam and Eve did indeed sin. Jesus is the ONLY sinless one. He alone is perfect.

You have yet to answer:

Did Mary's parents sin? Did her grandparents? What made her different from the rest of the human race?
---jerry6593 on 2/16/11


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Scripture does not record that Mary was born sinless. However, I do believe that her heart followed after God, for she had faith and was agreeing with the angel's word which he spoke to her that she would conceive seed from heaven and become pregnant, eventhough she was still a virgin whom never had any physiological intimacy with a man.
---Eloy on 2/14/11


RICHARD * LUKE 4:4 And JESUS answered him, saying, It is written,

Satan also use scripture Psalm 91:11-12 "God will give His angels charge of you" which is a great example of someone w/o proper authority can falsely interpret Scripture to his own destruction.Which by the way, so many here do!


RICHARD * 2 TIMOTHY 3:16 ALL scripture is given by inspiration of GOD, and is profitable for doctriine, for reproof,

In James 1:3-4 it reads "for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing "

James tell us steadfastness is all someone needs to be lacking nothing..
---Ruben on 2/14/11


Ruben: Your stance that ALL does not really mean ALL is not scriptural and defies logic as well as common sense. ALL mankind (including Elijah, Enoch and Mary) inherited the sinful nature - the propensity to sin - from Adam. The fact that these people turned from sin and were converted does not equate to being born with a different inherent nature from their parents. Did Mary's parents sin? Did her grandparents? What made her different from the rest of the human race?
---jerry6593 on 2/14/11

The point I was making is there are exceptions: Jesus, Adam and Eve. Which means "All" in Romans does not mean ALL...
---Ruben on 2/14/11


All, Ruben is correct. Scripture must be kept in it's context. For example, when I started my reply, "All" was I addressing every human being on earth? or was I addressing only the people here whom posted their definitions of the word "all" from a verse in the Bible? Thus the word "all" in Romans 3:23 is God comparing the equality of "the sinning Jew" whom had the law commanding- "Do not sin", "with the sinning Gentile" whom had not the law. lit.Gk: "Even the righteousness of God by obeying Jesus Christ onto each and upon whomsoever them obeying: seeing there is not a difference, as EACH sinned, indeed whoever lacking glory of God." Rm.3:23.
---Eloy on 2/14/11


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---jerry with this statement,"Ruben: Your stance that ALL does not really mean ALL is not scriptural and defies logic as well as common sense." Truly pins the tail on the donkey.
---mima on 2/14/11


\\RUBEN 2/11/11 3) where did Jesus give instruction that our faith should be base on a book?

LUKE 4:4 And JESUS answered him, saying, It is written, that man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of GOD.

2 TIMOTHY 3:16 ALL scripture is given by inspiration of GOD, and is profitable for doctriine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righeousness:.\\

If you really believe this, then you will NOT accept the NT, as it was not written when Jesus said this.

"All Scripture" in 2 Tim 3:16 clearly means ONLY the OT, considering the time these words were penned.
---Cluny on 2/14/11


Ruben: Your stance that ALL does not really mean ALL is not scriptural and defies logic as well as common sense. ALL mankind (including Elijah, Enoch and Mary) inherited the sinful nature - the propensity to sin - from Adam. The fact that these people turned from sin and were converted does not equate to being born with a different inherent nature from their parents. Did Mary's parents sin? Did her grandparents? What made her different from the rest of the human race?
---jerry6593 on 2/14/11


RUBEN 2/11/11 3) where did Jesus give instruction that our faith should be base on a book?

LUKE 4:4 And JESUS answered him, saying, It is written, that man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of GOD.

2 TIMOTHY 3:16 ALL scripture is given by inspiration of GOD, and is profitable for doctriine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righeousness:

2 PETER 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the HOLY GHOST.
---RICHARD on 2/13/11


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Rom 3:23 For ALL have sinned, and come short of the glory of God,

That "ALL" includes Mary.
---jerry6593 on 2/12/11


"all have sinned" refers only to those able to commit sin. This is not everyone. For example, infants, the retarded, and the senile cannot sin. There are exceptions like Jesus..In 1 Cor 15:22 it reads " 1 Cor. 15:22 - in Adam all have died, and in Christ all shall live. We know Enoch and Elijah who were taken up to heaven and not will all make to it heaven . This proves that 'All" does not mean everyone...
---Ruben on 2/13/11


Mima, catholicism along with every other false way will have their idolatries, and when the blind lead the blind then both will fall into the ditch. But when the light from Christ is shined onto them, then they that sit in darkness will see a great light: and when Almighty Christ is lifted up, rather than dead idols, then Christ will draw all kinds up to himself.
---Eloy on 2/13/11


\\\The one and only Almighty God Jesus created the weaker vessel Mary, in order to put on flesh and redeem mankind in the flesh.
---Eloy on 2/12/11\\

The Eternal Logs was NOT known as Jesus until incarnate in the womb of the Virgin.
---Cluny on 2/12/11


\\And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my SAVIOUR.

Only condemned people need a savior.\\

Shows what you know about what "savior" and "salvation" mean in Jewish thought to this day.

One is not "saved" by having a personal relationship with YHVH, but by being one of the saved, redeemed people. It's not an individualistic thing as it is in Protestant Christianity.

You're just simply projecting your 20th century Protestant understanding onto a 1st century Jewish prayer-poem.
---Cluny on 2/12/11


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\\I believe in original sin.
---mima on 2/12/11\\

So, should a baby die, what's it's eternal fate?
---Cluny on 2/12/11


The one and only Almighty God Jesus created the weaker vessel Mary, in order to put on flesh and redeem mankind in the flesh.
---Eloy on 2/12/11


Luke 1:46,47

And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,

And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my SAVIOUR.


Only condemned people need a savior.
---CraigA on 2/12/11


Rom 3:23 For ALL have sinned, and come short of the glory of God,

That "ALL" includes Mary.
---jerry6593 on 2/12/11


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sinless is not innocent ther's a difference by the way this is just another i-m right your wrrong blog in which noone is helped.
---andy3996 on 2/12/11


I believe in original sin.
---mima on 2/12/11


mima, do you believe that babies are sinless?

BTW--at least you didn't fall into the error that many Protestant controversialists say, which is that Immaculate Conception means that Mary was born from a virginal conception and birth as well.
---Cluny on 2/11/11


The Bible is the ONLY thing correct, the Catechism and the Catholic Church have it WRONG. The Bible says there is NO one that is good, and ALL have sinned. The Bible also says that Jesus Christ is the ONLY one without sin. Mary was a SINNER, like it or not.
---Leslie on 2/11/11


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Peter ...I agree with you

I am sure if Mary had been sinless from birth, many would have noticed it and expected great things from her.

Also she would have known she was sinless, and expected it to be for a reason. So why her great surprise and consternation at being chosen to bear Jesus?

But this RCC view of Mary is far from the false accusation of Catholic haters that the RCC gives her deity status
---alan8566_of_uk on 2/11/11


\\Also, from my study of Catholic beleifs, that one is actually a NEW view - I think it was placed by the Pope before John Paul II, so it is actually a 20th century view (not entirely sure of that!)
---Peter on 2/11/11
\\

Wrong, Peter, on both counts.

Immaculate Conception was debated for centuries from the Middle Ages onwards. Latin Theologians argued both for and against it.

But it was not declared a dogma of faith (for Roman Catholics) until Pius IX defined it in Ineffabilis Deus in 1845 or thereabouts.

Orthodox have several objections to it in this form which need not concern us here.
---Cluny on 2/11/11


Mary like all of us was born into sin because the fall of Adam. However like Noah, Mary found favor with God.So he chose her because of her faithfulness to be Jesus' mother.
---Candice on 2/11/11


This is an interesting topic. I'm anxious to see how others answer.

I know the Bible to be true. The teaching of a particular catechism may, or may not, be true. I don't know the author of the catechism, but I do know the Author of the Bible. IF the Bible and somebody's Catechism disagree... I'll take what the Bible says!

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

I've never heard a convincing argument, using scripture, for the Immaculate conception nor the perpetual virginity of
Mary.
---Donna on 2/11/11


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Are you confusing the fact with Mary being a "virgin" at Jesus' birth and therefore "sinless"?
---tt on 2/11/11


Why does it matter if Mary was sinless at birth or not?
---John.usa on 2/11/11


Mima,

1)Where in the Bible does it say all doctrine must be in the bible to be true?

2) Where does the bible tell us which books belong in the NT?

3)Where did Jesus give instructions that our Faith should be base on a book?
---Ruben on 2/11/11


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