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Saved Before Knowing Christ

It has come to my attention that some men believe they are saved and then later on in life are introduced to the gospel of Jesus Christ which explains HOW they were saved. Does this belief contradict Romans 10:14?

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 ---CraigA on 2/14/11
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Romans 11:26 KJV
26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

I can again put all the different versions, but again they all too say AS IT IS WRITTEN

You see MarkV and christan, what is WRITTEN HAS BEEN for-ordained and Predestined as well.

There is NOTHING humanly possibly YOU can do to stop it, change it.

Now, do you have a Problem with the SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD here?

WHAT IS WRITTEN will and does come to pass!
---kathr4453 on 2/22/11


Is it considered slander when you just show what is in a man's heart?

Your god is a sadist and takes pleasure in reserving men for condemnation, which is fine with you as long as YOU are saved.

*Is Gods Grace Unmerited* blog

Why are many going to hell?
Because of God.
---Mark_V. on 12/16/10

*Did demons know baby Jesus* blog

Satan is but an instrument of God.
---Mark_V. on 2/6/11

My God is LOVE and takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, does not rejoice in iniquity and does NOT tempt men with sin or lead them into it. He would rather have men turn and live.

Ezekiel 33:11, 1 Cor 13:6, 1 John 4:8, James 1:13
---CraigA on 2/22/11


Deu 23:7 Thou shalt not abhor an Edomite, for he [is] thy brother: thou shalt not abhor an Egyptian, because thou wast a stranger in his land.
Jos 24:4 And I gave unto Isaac Jacob and Esau: and I gave unto Esau mount Seir, to possess it, but Jacob and his children went down into Egypt.
Mal 1:2-3 I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? [Was] not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.
Obviously Christan means that God hates but He tells us not to.
---micha9344 on 2/22/11


MarkV,

You know I come with plenty of scripture. Sometimes, though, there is a point which needs to be made about the way a person approaches the context.

For a good dose of scripture pertaining to what is meant in Romans 8-11, you can go read my comments on 2/16/11 in the "How to choose a church" thread.

As you can see there, bringing the scriptures into place took 3 posts, and there was very little room for any aditional comments. And, I didn't even show half of the scriptures I would have loved to.

Sometimes there is room only for scripture or the other times only room for comments, and sometimes there is room for both.
---James_L on 2/22/11


"Nice way to taunt someone who lost his salvation, huh? Now beat it, chump. Off to hell with you." JamesL

Jesus said "Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you." Matthew 5:43,44, "If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you." John 15:17,18

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law." Galatians 5:22,23
---christan on 2/22/11




Complete verse in Romans 11:26, "And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob."

"all Israel" refers to "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." John 6:37, "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me, for they are thine." John 17:9

Isaiah 45:4 "For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me."

Jacob aka Israel is God's elect.
---christan on 2/22/11


"For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned." Matthew 12:37
---christan on 2/22/11

christan, are you now saying by your own words you shall be justified? Are you now contradicting yourself?
---Tom on 2/22/11


CraigA, let's start with your understanding of Jacob and Israel. God commanded, "And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed." Genesis 32:28

So when Scripture said all Israel will be saved, it was merely declaring the elect as Jacob aka Israel was an elect. It did not mean the physical nation of Israel as a whole. For there are elects in Israel as there are in the world.

As for the word "hate", that's what God declares, period. I have no problem that while God only love His elect, He also hates - "But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased." Psalm 115:3
---christan on 2/22/11


Christan, It would take a Bible scholar of many decades to convince you that the word "hate" doesnt mean what you think it does in that passage. Apparently you never went and read Malachi 1:2 to see that its talking about the NATIONS of Jacob (Israel) and Esau (Edom), not the individual men.

Jesus tells us to "hate" too...

If any man come to me and hate not his father and mother and wife and children and brethren and sisters yea and his own life also he cannot be my disciple

Do you hate your mother, father, brethren and children, Christan? If not you cannot be Jesus' disciple right? wrong

Hate used in that sense simply means "love less".
---CraigA on 2/22/11


As Donna66, I too have never heard of:
"The fact that any Christian would tell a man without Christ that God may not love him and that Jesus may not have even died for him grieves my heart horribly"
Most of you talk a lot but never give any prove. Why don't you write where you found it, what book, and who said those words to someone. Instead of just bringing accusations and throwing them to the wind. The last time I ask for confirmation no one gave it. Just more talk. Slandering. The only reason most of you make up things like that, is because you do not believe in the right of God to chose whom He wills to chose. You want man to make the decisions, not God.
---Mark_V. on 2/22/11




christian, we know what the bible says...Jacob I loved, Esau I hated....and it still has NOTHING to do with ETERNAL LIFE!!

Romans 9 = Israel's PAST
Romans 10= Israel's PRESENT
Romans 11= Israel's FUTURE!!!

Romans 11---Gentiles are not to be IGNORANT of that fact, or Arrogant about it!
---kathr4453 on 2/22/11


Romans 11:26 KJV 26And so all Israel shall be saved:

Romans 11:26 ASV 26 and so all Israel shall be saved:


Romans 11:26 NLT26 And so all Israel will be saved

Romanos 11:26 (La Biblia de las Amricas)
26y as, todo Israel ser salvo

Romans 11:26 (Common English Bible)
26 In this way, all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

We can do this until the cows come home!!!
---kathr4453 on 2/22/11


The Scripture clearly says regardless of the versions in Romans 9:13

KJV: As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
NIV: Just as it is written: Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.
NASB: Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."
ESV: As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
NLT: In the words of the Scriptures, I loved Jacob, but I rejected Esau.
WNT: as it is written, I loved Jacob, but I hated Esau.

And some claim they can see the very written words.

"For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned." Matthew 12:37
---christan on 2/22/11


Donna66 ...
CraigA said "The fact that any Christian would tell a man without Christ that God may not love him and that Jesus may not have even died for him grieves my heart horribly"

You said CraigA-- I don't think I've ever heard of a belief like the one you describe"

Donna ... Maybe you don't care what Calvin said, but nevertheless he did, and several here proclaim it. So if you read all the blogs here, in fact you must have heard of such a belief
---alan8566_of_UK on 2/22/11


JamesL Exactly,

Isaac /Jacob carried on the promises made to ABRAHAM.(Isaac didn't inherit the land personally, however his son did. This was all promised to ABRAHAM, God give to Jacob the promise of inheriting the land, a land that is still being fought over, by WHO???

The Pharoah, an Egyptian was Hagar's family, and so was Ismael, who kept Jacob's descendents in bondage. God SHOWED his wrath towards Pharoah and Egypt (BECAUSE OF THE PROMISES MADE TO ABRAHAM) Delivered them and brought them to the land

Is this STILL important? According to Isaiah 14,Ezekiel 36, Genesis 49 and more!!

OUR INHERITANCE, those called through Isaac, is IN HEAVENLY PLACES IN CHRIST!!! Ephesians 3:14-21 explain it perfectly!!
---kathr4453 on 2/22/11


Genesis 13:16-18
16And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.

17Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it, for I will give it unto thee.

Now compare Ephesians 3:14-21
Ephesians 3:18
May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height,

OUR inheritance IN CHRIST and once we possess we can never be held in bondage to Pharoah/satan...

Now read all of Ephesians again with that in mind!!!
---kathr4453 on 2/22/11


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Craig, I will not do a lot of talking as you and James do, but will write what Scripture says,
"Jesus told His apostles at the Last Supper that they knew the Holy Spirit, because He was already dwelling with them ( John 14:17). and John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit from his mothers womb (Luke 1:15)
Zechariah, his father, was filled with the Holy Spirit, resulting in the prophesy when he beheld the baby Jesus (Luke 2:25-27). In one of His Post-resurrection appearances before Pentecost, Jesus bestowed the Holy Spirit in His apostles (John 20:22). And there is many more passages. After Pentecost, the Holy Spirit indwell believers and sealed them. The sealing was for eternal life.
---Mark_V. on 2/22/11


Right on, Kathr. Good stuff.

Christan,
Abraham's children according to the flesh were given an earthly inheritance. There is an eternal inheritance for Abraham's children through faith.

The earthly inheritance was something they could own, and so is our etenal inheritance.

God "chose" and "elected" Israel for the inheritance by His own standard.

If the inheritance was merely entrance into heaven, then Moses lost his salvation because he was not allowed to go in, only look.

Nice way to taunt someone who lost his salvation, huh? Here, take a look at how pretty it is. Now beat it, chump. Off to hell with you. Right? Dust off God's feet, as you might say?
---James_L on 2/21/11


Alan of UK, I don't know, nor care, what Calvin said.
I care only what the Bible says.

Everybody that I know who believes in predestination, will tell you they were born a sinner and continued as such until they heard and believed the Gospel.
---Donna66 on 2/21/11


christan, Abraham was NOT the father of Physical Israel, Jacob was...Jacob was RENAMED ISRAEL...not Isaac or Abraham.

When scripture speaks of JACOB, it is referring to PHYSICAL ISRAEL.

Isaiah 14...

WE are ISAAC, children of PROMISE...The Heavenly seed of Christ.

Jacobs descendents are not the Heavenly Seed, they are earthly Israel...in Isaac will thy seed be called.

WE are the heavenly, not the earthly.

Believe it or not, God had mercy on Hagar and Ishmael, but in no way are they the elect. ( In Isaac will they seed be called...More than the stars in heaven...

So yes God can have mercy on whom He wishes...that's no proof for eternal salvation.
---kathr4453 on 2/21/11


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God NEVER said He hated Ishmael although God chose Isaac over Ishmael. The child of promise, not self effort was to both Abraham/ Sarah.

Those of Jacob, Earthly Israel were not ALL saved /Elect to salvation...because Not All Israel is Israel, but IN Isaac the true Spiritual were called through Christ.

I make no sense to believe God Jacob chose Jacob to eternal life...

Isaac's blessings on Jacob were those that carried on from those promises made to Abraham...and the Land was included in those promises. ( Please read those blessings that Esau believed Jacob stole from him.

No promise Isaac gave Jacob that he was chosen to eternal life and Esau was not.

Thousands + of Esau's descendents today are saved.
---kathr4453 on 2/21/11


"It is said by a Jew here"

what kind of comment is that markv? How rude. Does this JEW have a name?

The JEW here is Paul, who said "all Israel will be saved".

All Israel does not mean every single Jew. I believe a reference to Zech 12-14 being made in context to the comment.

I'm beginning to see more and more you have a reading/comprehension issue, not only with people but with scripture. If you misrepresent people, no wonder you misrepresent scripture.
---Tom on 2/21/11


Christan,
your understanding of election makes a mockery of the intelligence of Paul. He already addressed condemnation and justification in chapters 1-4. Then he moves on tho the benefits of being in Christ. Your understanding of Romans would have Paul unable to complete his thoughts, jumping around in and out of topics like a madman, with no aim at all. You read the bible like a buch of one-liners written on little pieces of paper and thrown into the wind, then gathered up in groups of 15-20 and stapled together into a book of proverbs.

That's not exegesis, my friend. The inheritance was the biggest reason Isreal was chosen. Everyone had the offer of heaven, but Abraham was brought out of Ur for a purpose.
---James_L on 2/21/11


Mark_V, you are wrong.

1. The disciples believed in Christ before the Spirit was given (John 7:39)

2. The Spirit was breathed on AFTER Christ had resurrected (John 20:20,21).

3. This is one of your favorites: 1 Cor 2:11,12

Now for all of these things to be TRUE (since the are all scripture) you have to hold a doctrine that supports all three!

The Spirit convicts all men of sin (John 16:9), leading them to Christ. Once we accept Jesus by faith, the Spirit comes to reside IN us (Eph 1:13).

The Spirit may have come upon these disciples and prophets in the old days but He did not live within them! They were justified by their faith, but not cleansed by the blood of Christ yet.
---CraigA on 2/21/11


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MarkV,

Didn't Jesus say to the disciples after Jesus rose from the dead..receive the Holy Spirit? Was that the new Birth AFTER they had been with Him so long?

John 20:21-23

21Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

22And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

23Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them, ---.

So Pentecost was the FILLING and John 20 was the New Birth??? Given AFTER Christ rose correct....not while they were following Him before He died..correct?

So those saved at Pentecost were already saved, and just needed a filling? is that correct?
---kathr4453 on 2/21/11


It is said by a Jew here that all Israel will be saved. So they take it that every single person in Israel will be saved. Even those who are in the flesh. But that is not what Scripture declares, for not all Israel is Israel. Only the "Spiritual Israel will be saved. Paul didn't mean every single individual would be save for in the same chapter he wrote, "If by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them" (v.14) and also said, And they (individual Jewish people) also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grated in"(v. 23) There is that "If"
---Mark_V. on 2/21/11


"Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." Romans 9:6-8

- Abraham was the father of physical Israel by flesh and the father of spiritual Israel by faith.
- It is the spiritual Israel (the body of Christ) that God only loved and made a covenant to save them and not the fleshly Israel.
- Jacob is saved because God loved him from eternity and was in that covenant of grace.
---christan on 2/21/11


Donna ... It was taught by Calvin, and beleived by those who follow him that Some were made for eternal life, and the rest made for damnation.

I'll give you the full Calvin words if you like
---alan8566_of_uk on 2/21/11


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Micha, you said,
"Joh 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given], because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
-It's quite amazing how many people believed in Christ before the Holy Spirit was given."

Micha, you have to make a distinction between born of the Spirit and been filled by the Spirit (indwell) and sealed by the Spirit.
You forget also that when Jesus was talking to the disciples, He had already breath the Spirit to them. No one can believe by faith in Christ without been born of the Spirit. You would have unbelievers without faith entering the kingdom of God. Just not possible.
---Mark_V. on 2/21/11


Paul qualifies in verse 11 that election to salvation is unconditional, period. God simply declares that He loved Jacob and hated Esau. And if you have a problem, Paul's reply was "What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? ---christan on 2/20/11


So christan how do you explain Isaiah 14, that is yet to come to pass...

Isaiah 14
1For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.

So Jacob got Mercy, and a house, BUT ALL ISRAEL WAS CHOSEN....ISRAEL is millions of millions.....

Will you THEN argue with God???
---kathr4453 on 2/21/11


christan,

Romans 11:26
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

So christan is Jacob who is STILL UNGODLY...How's that???


Lets EXAMINE this concluding verse.

You claim to be Jacob/Israel correct. But you are saying you are STILL UGODLY and will remain so until the Lord returns.

I am already saved, and wont need delivering from MY ungodliness.

However you may want to read Zechariah 12-14 to connect the dots!
---kathr4453 on 2/21/11


Donna66, its not my belief. I really dont know how you would classify it tbqh. But its upheld by the WCF.

Its clear to me from Eph 1:13 its ...
Gospel---> Faith ---> Spirit

The only reason people read Eph 2:8,9 as "proof" that faith in a gift is because they dont follow the rules of the English language. Faith is not the subject of the clause "it is the gift of God" because "through faith" is a prepositional phrase.

Someones 6th grade English teacher would be very upset.
---CraigA on 2/21/11


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JamesL, you understanding of Romans 9 is nothing short of futile in election. The Bible is all about God choosing and saving His people to salvation.

Paul qualifies in verse 11 that election to salvation is unconditional, period. God simply declares that He loved Jacob and hated Esau. And if you have a problem, Paul's reply was "What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid."

In Romans 9, Paul clearly teaches that God is Sovereign and He does as He pleases in the heavens. And what is sobering, man will be held accountable, regardless of your objection to unconditional election. Using Romans 8:29 without referencing Romans 9:11,13 equals your thoughts which is foolishness.
---christan on 2/20/11


CraigA-- I don't think I've ever heard of a belief like the one you describe.

Some people believe they were "foreordained" from the foundation of the world to be saved. But they were born with a sinful nature and, in fact, were sinners like everyone, until the time they heard and believed the Word of God in order to be saved.

I've heard that belief expressed on this site, but not the one you mention. Is it a Mormon belief? JW?
---Donna66 on 2/20/11


Something tells me that you are not expressing what you say "some men believe" accurately or even fairly.
---Cluny on 2/14/11

I AGREE
---francis on 2/19/11


The firstborn was the primary recipient of an inheritance.

But God did not always work it that way. It was according to election, not according to the flesh, or works.
---James_L on 2/19/11


Exactly JamesL

From a spiritual understanding..God never accepts our first birth, but only acepts our second..you must be Born again.

The first man adan was a life giving soul, the Last man Adam, a Quickening spirit.

1 Corinthians 15:47
The first man is of the earth, earthy, the second man is the Lord from heaven.

46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural, and afterward that which is spiritual.

Both Ishmael and Esau(ruddy) represent the earthly, natural man.
---kathr4453 on 2/19/11


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Christan part 1,
election in Romans 9 has nothing whatsoever to o with being chosen to go to heaven or hell.

THat's not what election is at all. The "elect" and "chosen" are those who God will bestow an inheritance. The context starts in ch 8 and goes all the way through ch 11.

8:29 For those whom He foreknew He also preestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers.

The firstborn was the primary recipient of an inheritance.

But God did not always work it that way. It was according to election, not according to the flesh, or works.
---James_L on 2/19/11


CraigA, I have no doubt that God is love. It is because of His love that His people are saved from their sins in the death of Jesus Christ. The real distinction begins when God's love is made universal, which is definitely not biblical. If it was biblical, Paul would never have taught election in the lives of Jacob and Esau. What is true is that God's love is unconditionally elective.

If you believe that God's love is universal, I don't. However, I'm not here to pick an argument with you or anyone personally. So long as the Mediator of this blog is in control, you can have your say and I hope that I can have mine too. And if I have cause you any grieve with my words personally, please forgive me but I stand by what I believe.
---christan on 2/19/11


CraigA, Yes, it does contradict ROMANS 10:14. For, those men who claim "Salvation" cannot possibly be saved if they have not heard the Gospel first. If the Lord YAHUSHUA (JESUS) had personally appeared to them, in a dream or a vision, or in Person (as He did with the Apostle Paul), then "MAYBE". But, remember, in JOHN 14:6, YAHUSHUA says that He alone is the "Way, the Truth, and the Life" and that no one comes to the Father (nor enters Heaven) but by Him, the Son of GOD. The testimonies of those men may be another tactic of Satan to influence people to believe that they can bypass the Gospel and still be "saved".
---Gordon on 2/19/11


John 6:45
It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

I have a question christan, here, in John 6, the verses you all like so much, states very clearly those who come to Christ...those whom the Father has given to Jesus have FIRST heard and learned of the FATHER.

It says ABSOLUTELY nothing about being quickened first by the Holy Spirit.

Please tell us what You FIRST HEARD AND LEARNED of the Father.

FAITH COMES BY HEARING!

I tell you WHAT I FIRST HEARD AND LEARNED that brought me to Christ..The Gospel of Grace!
---kathr4453 on 2/19/11


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Now christan, as a Jew, I heard God was going to send a savior/Messiah/Christ to save HIS PEOPLE. I also heard through OT Prophecy that He was going to suffer for my sin. Isaiah 53. I heard TOO He would be born of a virgin..yes, the Father taught US these things.

So when Jesus came, the only Begotten of the Father...( THIS DAY have I begotten you) THE DAY MARY CONCEIVED)..I put it all together and BELIEVED Jesus was the Christ Child, born of a virgin...EMMANUEL!!

The Father taught me He so lived the World HE GAVE His Only Begotten son, that WHO EVER( not just Jews, BUT GENTILES TOO) believes will not perish but have eternal life.

PRAISE GOD the Father for teaching us this through HIS WORD!
---kathr4453 on 2/19/11


John 6:45
It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Galatians 1:12
For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 4:21
If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
---kathr4453 on 2/18/11


1 Thessalonians 4:9
But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.

Ephesians 4: 20But ye have not so learned Christ,

21If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
---kathr4453 on 2/18/11


Christan, I know its frightening to go from doctrine to another. I assure you we believe in the same God, but we just disagree on his love for all men.

I dont wish to cause you any doubt as to whether or not you are saved. Please dont misunderstand my intentions. My concern is SOLELY for the LOST and what that doctrine does to them. The same God that worked mightly in Paul and the apostles to "present every man perfect in Christ Jesus" is working in me. (Col 1:28,29)

The fact that any Christian would tell a man without Christ that God may not love him and that Jesus may not have even died for him grieves my heart horribly.
---CraigA on 2/18/11


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1 Corinthians 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul, the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

christan, you said a lot but have no scripture to back up your statement.

The Holy Spirit is not the Last Adam...


Romans 5 we are Justified by HIS BLOOD, that is Jesus Blood,
and SAVED by HIS LIFE..Jesus life that is..His Risen Life.

Our identification WITH CHRIST in death and resurrection is that quickening Life Giving Spirit.

The Spirit of THE LIFE OF CHRIST....not the life of the Holy Spirit.

But I am glad to see you do make a distinction between the Three. Now apply the three accordingly.
---kathr4453 on 2/18/11


Some are confused by the triune God which consist of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. They are three different persons but One God. They work in harmony of each other.

The Father is the Godhead who has chosen His people from eternity for salvation. The Father did not come to die at Calvary for the sins of His people but His Son Jesus Christ did. The Son does not quicken/regenerate His people but the Holy Spirit does.

The Holy Spirit after quickening will apply the gift of faith ONLY to those whom the Father has chosen and the Son has died for. The Holy Spirit is the one who will then guide His people to all truth and teach, not the Father or the Son.

This is the God I worship and love with all my heart, soul and mind.
---christan on 2/18/11


---why does the Spirit need to quicken you again since you already believe in Jesus?--- Christan

Because there are other things we still wont understand without the Spirit living in us. Just as Jesus said to his disciples.

John 16:12,13

I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself, but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.


Apparently the truth of Christ isnt one of those things we cant bear. The disciples had faith. So can we. (Romans 10:6-8)
---CraigA on 2/17/11


What seems obvious to me is that Calvinists totally bypass Jesus Christ and HIS LIFE that quickens us.

If all that was needed what the Holy Spirit to quicken you, OT and New, there would be no need for Jesus Christ, or His finished work.

These deny Christ..I am crucified with Christ, I am not crucified with the Holy Spirit. Christ is my life, Christ is in me and I am in Him.

That's the problem with calvinism...

Jesus said to eat HIS FLESH and drink HIS Blood, is what gives you eternal life..and I don't mean eating a wafer that mysteriously turns into flesh...how easy is that?

You can't eat the flesh of the Holy Spirit who was never flesh and blood.

And don't say that Jesus is the Holy Spirit.
---kathr4453 on 2/17/11


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I dont know how many verses of scripture do you need Christan. Im not the only one giving them to you.

If all scripture is inspired, and scripture says the Holy Ghost was NOT GIVEN at the time of the disciples because Jesus wasnt ascended yet, who are you really arguing with? Its not me. I didnt write the scripture.

The disciples believed WITHOUT the Spirit. even Christ said his miracles were to show the power of God and glorify the Father and to PROVE that He was the Christ.

The presence of the Spirit within you is PROOF that you have been forgiven and adopted as a son of God!
---CraigA on 2/17/11


--We are drawn, convicted of the Spirit first.
---kathr4453 on 2/17/11

Agreed! That is even what Jesus said the Spirit would do. John 16:9

And before the argument is given...if you read the OT references to the Spirit, Christan, youll notice the Spirit came "UPON" those men chosen by God to be priests and judges and kings. So the Spirit is able to influence men without living IN them. That is how He is able to convict a man without faith in Christ of his sin.
---CraigA on 2/17/11


Joh 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given], because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
-It's quite amazing how many people believed in Christ before the Holy Spirit was given.
John 12:11 Because that by reason of him (Lazarus) many of the Jews went away, and believed on Jesus.
-Not by the Spirit?
Joh 14:29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.
-Just 'might' not 'will'?
Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
-Choose life?
---micha9344 on 2/17/11


CraigA, if your claim is right that "you receive the Spirit AFTER you place your trust in Jesus Christ." - why does the Spirit need to quicken you again since you already believe in Jesus?

---christan on 2/17/11

Who said the Spirit QUICKENS you again since you believe.

The Last man Adam(the Risen Christ) is the Life quickening spirit. The Holy Spirit is who baptized you into the Body of Christ, then you are raised up WITH CHRIST a New Creature/Born Again.

We are not first quickened/regenerated/ given a NEW LIFE "IN CHRIST" /born again, first. We are drawn, convicted of the Spirit first.

Also remember the Holy Spirit does not baptize you into the Holy Spirit. He baptized you into Christ!
---kathr4453 on 2/17/11


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CraigA, if your claim is right that "you receive the Spirit AFTER you place your trust in Jesus Christ." - why does the Spirit need to quicken you again since you already believe in Jesus?

And who is Jesus? Isn't He God? And isn't God a Spirit? And those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and Truth, isn't it? So if you already have the ability to trust Christ, aren't you already born of the Spirit? Because Scripture merely declares that God is Spirit. And if a man is not born of the Spirit of God, how does he place his trust in Christ?

Your doctrine exalts the man's freewill and downgrades God's will, which I will say that according to the Scripture, it's a terrible deception that you are in.
---christan on 2/17/11


Christan, you receive the Spirit AFTER you place your trust in Jesus Christ. (Eph 1:13,14)

Luke 11:13
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

If the Spirit regenerates us and we dont have Him until after trust in Jesus Christ, how then can you say we are regenerated TO BELIEVE in Jesus Christ? The disciples didnt even have the Spirit until Christ ascended.

And the "kings" .... Saul was annointed king at the will of God and then was later on rejected by God for disobedience

Different time.
Different covenant.
---CraigA on 2/17/11


Christan, are you gonna keep jumping from one scripture to the next until you have none left? It seems you dont WANT to believe you have free will because it would cause you to question your eternal security.

Your security isnt based on predestination to begin with. Your GROWTH as a child of God however is. "Predestined to be conformed to his image"
Your security is based on the PROMISES of God that if we place our faith in his Son, we will not perish. God does not lie.

The very word DISOBEDIENCE means the failure or refusal to obey!!! Refusal to obey what? THE WILL OF GOD! Thats why the punishment is so severe! How dare we refuse Him!

I noticed you didnt respond on Ephesians 2:8,9 from before. Why not?
---CraigA on 2/17/11


CraigA, It doesn't matter what you and I think but what Scripture declares. Jesus declares:

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:44

"Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." John 3:3,5,6

Where does your "freewill" fit into these verses? Where?
---christan on 2/17/11


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What other way is there to take this scripture?

A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.

The man who chooses to remain unrepentant will be used of God for evil purposes such as He used Pharoah.

The man who repents and looks to God as his Savior will be used of God for good purposes.

Either way God will be glorified!!

2 Timothy 2:20,21
But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth, and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
---CraigA on 2/17/11


CraigA, the god you describe sounds like a fortune teller with a crystal ball. Using Proverbs 16:9 the way you did, you are saying that it is man who leads the way and if that is so, God has no control of the man. So explain this,

"The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will." Proverbs 21:1

"For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done." Acts 4:27,28
---christan on 2/16/11


---I believe it is faith, justification, regeneration.
---James_L on 2/16/11

As do I. Amen

Titus 3:5,6
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by ***the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost***, Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour,

Washed in the blood, renewed by the Spirit.
---CraigA on 2/16/11


Christan, go back one more chapter. God already knew Pharoah would resist Moses' request (Exodus 3:18-21). He knows all decisions we will make before we make them (Proverbs 5:21).

Proverbs 16:9
A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.

Pharoah had already chosen his "way", God directed his "steps". He further hardened a man who was already unrepentant.
---CraigA on 2/16/11


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Kathr,
I agree with you. I was simply trying to clarify the issue because I think it was from my words in another thread that CraigA was referring. Could be wrong, though.

I agree with the order you listed, but that's not the issue I was commenting on.

The issue is only justification, faith, regeneration. What is the biblical order?

Reformers believe it is regeneration, faith, justification.

I believe it is faith, justification, regeneration.
---James_L on 2/16/11


CraigA and James L, however the Bible teaches JUSTIFICATION comes FIRST.

Justification, sanctification, glorification..in that order.
---kathr4453 on 2/16/11


CraigA, it's good that you bring up the subject of "hardening". Now I ask you, who's the agent of "hardening"? And you are going to have a big problem with Scripture in Romans 9:18, "Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth." It is declared that mercy and hardening is the work of God.

Here's a verse to help you along from Exodus 4:21, "And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go."

God does not tell us how he hardens but we can see the result, disobedience.
---christan on 2/16/11


Craig,

Maybe I can clarify with a different choice of words.

Reformation theology teaches that an unregenerate man cannot choose the things of God. Therefore a man has to be regenerated first. Then after he is regenerated, he now has a godly heart which enables him to choose the things of God (excercise faith in Christ). Then, based on faith, he is justified.

Thus, the order would be Regeneration, faith, justification.

I do agree that an unregenerate man does not have the ability to choose the things of God. But faith is not an active "element" which can be exercised.

Faith is belief. And belief is passive. Faith does not come FROM us, faith happens TO us when we hear the gospel.
---James_L on 2/15/11


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To be saved, we must accept Jesus as our Savior. When we are saved, we have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. How can we not know Jesus and claim to be saved. Yes, baby christians do need milk but then we become grounded in the Word by study and prayer, not forgetting to assemble ourselves with other believers for fellowship and encouragement. At this point, we are ready for the meat of the Word. Also we become sturdy and not swayed by any doctrine that comes along.
---shira3877 on 2/16/11


Romans 5:15
But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Romans 5:17
For if by one man's offence death reigned by one, much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.

AGAIN, the Gift is GRACE, the Gift is the Righteousness of Christ...The Gift is HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS.

This is the GOOD NEWS we preach.

WHOSOEVER will, may receive the FREE Gift of the Righteousness of Christ.
---kathr4453 on 2/16/11


I can't see how it can contradict Romans 10:14. Christ saves! FULLSTOP. He does it when he wants, how he wants and where he wants. He saved me by throwing me on my knees in the forest L O N G before I knew even how to read the Bible. I was so full of Joy after that, I could have saved the world myself and I had no idea what exactly happend to me. I only knew I was saved from this terrible affliction I had. I found the Church 8 years later and was baptised then. God is OMNIPOTENT and can't even be explained fully. His wonders are too fantastic to even fathom his ways. Many need to get their head out of the bible and see the wonders taking place daily around them. What a Joy indeed.
---Rita_Walczak on 2/15/11


---how is it they were in unbelief even after they saw all the miracles and wonders God performed before their very eyes?---Christan

They werent in unbelief. They followed him a while and then they hardened their hearts. They DEPARTED from the living God. Mark, you know as well as I do what that word means.

Heb 10:38
Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him

Draw back from what? You know what - the truth presented to him.

This is an act of the man, not of God. That is why it angers God (Heb 3). There is forgiveness and restoral, just as Jesus taught in the Prodigal Son, but a man must "come to himself"/repent first!
---CraigA on 2/15/11


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Christan, Paul most certainly does not say that!

Like I said in a previous post. COLONS separate independant clauses.

For by grace are ye saved thru faith, and that not of yourselves : <---- COLON!

It is the gift of God: <---

Not of works lest any man should boast.

Now the SUBJECT of a sentence is never in a prepositional phrase. That excludes "faith" and "grace" as they are both in prepositional phrases. You being saved is the subject of the passage!


"You are saved by grace through faith."

You (subject) are saved (verb) by grace (prep phrase 1) through faith (prep phrase 2).
---CraigA on 2/15/11


CraigA, you were not off topic when you said, "They didnt all make it because of unbelief." You spoke the truth because that's what Scripture says. The question we should ask is how is it they were in unbelief even after they saw all the miracles and wonders God performed before their very eyes? The answer is simple and Hebrews 11 explains it.

You see, all of God's saints from the first, Abel to the last to walk in the narrow gate were and will be justified by faith. And this faith Paul says it's a gift from God. In other words, this gift from God called faith is what causes the man to belief in God. And those who were in unbelief, did not receive that precious gift from God.
---christan on 2/15/11


Off topic... but anyways.

Yeah, Christan, he had a plan to pull them out of bondage from Egypt (which He did) and a plan to get them to the promised land.

They didnt all make it because of unbelief.
---CraigA on 2/14/11


Yes it does contradict Romans 10:14. NO one can be saved unless they repent (Luke 13:3, 1 John 1:9), trust in Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord - by believing and confessing (Romans 10:9-10), and the Holy Spirit drawing them to Christ. If these things are not so, there is NO salvation.
---Leslie on 2/14/11


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Hello CraigA, that "unnamed" person you quoted has a name, and that's christan. I still stand by what I have said with conviction.

Back to your topic. Did God have a plan to save the nation Israel from bondage? Of course, it was from eternity. He prophesied this in Genesis 15:12-14 to Abraham. This was even before Abraham had Isaac. Things in this world cannot happen outside of God's will and purpose.

Scripture never contradict Scripture, but confirms. It's the darken hearts of man that contradicts Scripture. Question now becomes, what are you be taught by your pastor? That the man has the "freewill" to choose Christ for salvation? I will simply say, you're being deceived according to Scripture.
---christan on 2/14/11


CraigA, anyone who believes this has only cherry picked certain scripture out of context.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shall be saved.

Saved comes after believe in EVERY scripture. There are probably over 1000 scriptures in scripture that man acts first, and then God acts.

ABRAHAM's FAITH was counted for righteousness. Abraham did not have faith before he had faith.

Abel did not place a lamb on the alter before he placed an lamb on the alter.

Just because God knows who will receive Him, doesn't mean they were Already saved before they were saved.
---kathr4453 on 2/14/11


Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the life, no man comes unto the
Father but by me." If they could be saved without Jesus there must be another way. Not so according to Jesus himself.
---Harold on 2/14/11


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