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Faith Same As Belief

Are faith in Christ and belief in Christ the same thing? Please give scriptural support.

Moderator - No, even the demons believe.

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 ---CraigA on 2/16/11
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Trav,
Actually you are very wrong. You must have missed a thousand of my post.
But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's own people, that you may declare the wonderful deeds "of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light"
---Mark_V. on 3/21/11

We're all wrong but you Markv. But, you never had 1M multiple scriptural witnesses. Leaves you accusing with opinion not a witnesses.

Interesting you chose "one" verse. with "Peculiar/Special/Separate" people.
Here is it's OT mate. Deuteronomy 14:2
For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God,the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all nations that are upon earth.
---Trav on 3/21/11


Trav, you say to me,

Ur issue is with GOD's choosing...not me."

Actually you are very wrong. My whole purpose for answering is to speak about God choosing whom He wills to have mercy on, not about man having mercy on Him and choosing Him. You must have missed a thousand of my post. God is Sovereign and chooses whom He wills to save.

"..For they stumble because they disobey the word as they were destined to do. But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's own people, that you may declare the wonderful deeds "of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light"
---Mark_V. on 3/21/11


Trav 2:
1 Peter 2:6-8 three passages employing the "stone" metaphor are used by Peter to show that Christ's position as Chief cornerstone of the New spiritual house was foreordained by God. That same stone is also going to be the stumbling stone that brings down the unbelievers in Judgment (Matt. 21:42-44). Zion, quoted from Is. 28:16, Figuratively, Zion, Jerusalem, is in the realm of the New Covenant as Sinai is in the realm of the Old Covenant. To every human being Christ is either the means of salvation if they believe, or the means of judgment if they reject the gospel. Like a stone on the road causing some to fall "A chosen generation" Peter uses O.T. concepts to N.T. Christians (Deut. 7:6-8).
---Mark_V. on 3/21/11


Just because the Covenant "was spoken to Israel," it does not mean the Covenant was "only for Israel"
....prejudices both of you described by your answers is the reason this words were mentioned.
---Mark_V. on 3/19/11

You "always" convienently leave out preceding/or following verses unifying "TRUTH" or prophet testimoney. Most preachers do also, putting you in high company.
Romans 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister OF the circumcision for truth of God, to CONFIRM the PROMISES MADE unto the FATHERS:
GOD is the GOD of all peoples/gentiles. He chose one for a wife. You despise it...fight it and work against it. Ur issue is with GOD's choosing...not me.
---Trav on 3/20/11


..prejudices both of you described by your answers is the reason this words were mentioned.
---Mark_V. on 3/19/11

Your GOD changes...ours doesn't.
Your Sun & Moon stars are gone! Mine aren't.
Jeremiah 33:24Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying, The two families which the LORD hath chosen, he hath even cast them off? thus they have despised my people, that they should be no more a nation before them.

25Thus saith the LORD, If my covenant be not with day and night, if I have not appointed ordinances of heaven and earth,

26Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob:
---Trav on 3/20/11




The Abrahamic Covenant is not the Mosaec Covenent. The Mosaec Covenant was given to Israel. The Mosaec Covenant is done away in Christ, however the Abrahamic Covenant or Everlasting Covenant is in effect to this day. Hebrews tells us the Law of Moses was done away. Also stating the Promises given to Abraham are promises unconditional never to be broken. God make an oath, that is eternal.

The New Covenant also did not REPLACE the Covenant made to Abraham. If it had, Everything Paul tells us in Galatians concerning Abraham and that covenant would not apply.

Gentiles were never put under the Law of Moses.

The gentiles were a law unto themselves.
---kathr4453 on 3/20/11


Trav/Nana Part 2:
Romans 5:9-12 was to show that God's plan has always been to bring Jew and Gentile alike into His kingdom and to soften the prejudice of Christian Jews against Gentile brothers. Paul quotes from the law, the prophets, and twice from the Psalms-all the recognized divisions of the O.T. Proving God's plan from their own Scriptures. 15:9 refers to God extending His grace and mercy to a people outside the Covenant. It is written, quoted from 2 Samuel 22:50 Ps. 18:49. The Psalmist sings praise to God among the nations which alludes to Gentile slavation.
Other quotes, Deut. 43:43, Ps. 117:1, Is. 11:10.
---Mark_V. on 3/19/11


Just because the Covenant "was spoken to Israel," it does not mean the Covenant was "only for Israel"
Gentiles were included in that Covenant. The promises to the fathers and that the Gentiles might glorify God for His mercy, as it is written,
"For this reason I will confess to You among the Gentiles and sing to Your name, And again he says, Rejoice O Gentiles with His people. And again, praise the Lord all you Gentiles, Laud Him all you peoples" And again, There shall be a root of Jesse, And He who shall rise to reign over the Gentiles, in Him the Gentiles shall have hope"
Rom. 5:9-12 the prejudices both of you described by your answers is the reason this words were mentioned.
---Mark_V. on 3/19/11


36:24 "For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land."

Clearly addresses the house of Israel and only the house of Israel.
---Nana on 3/18/11


Nana...you just honored a prophets testimony. As instructed in New Covenant Testament.
Rare, here.
Luke 24:25
Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
Acts 15:15
And to this agree the words of the prophets, as it is written,
2 Peter 3:2
That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
---Trav on 3/18/11


Ezekiel 36:17 "Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their own way and by their doings:..."
Ezekiel 36:22 "Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD, I do not this for your sakes,..."
Ezekiel 36:24 "For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land."
Ezekiel 36:28 "And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God."

Clearly addresses the house of Israel and only the house of Israel.
---Nana on 3/18/11




James L, I believe you forgot so many passages that kind of blind the truth from you. Here now listen to what God has to say on what He will do to genuine believers under the New Covenant:

" I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statues, and you will keep My judgments and do them" Eze. 36:27.

Now hear this, this is what God will do. And since God is Sovereign there is no debate. He doesn't say He will try, or that if you as a believer want to, but that He will cause you to walk in His statues and you will, no two ways about that.
---Mark_V. on 3/18/11


\\Lets, let it go ok?...The case should be close. peace to you.\\
---Mark_V. on 3/16/11

I'm sorry for not answering, Mark. I thought you meant we should end the debate.

Here is where I got my question about the Bema and eternal destiny:

\\God does not make mistakes. He does not send unbelievers to the "Bema" Seat of Christ only to find out later they have no good works.\\ 2/25/11

\\This is not a judgment for sin since Christ has paid that price (Rom. 8:1)\\ 3/15/11

as for Eph 2:10, we are created in Him for good works, but there is no mention of any inevitability that it will happen.

Conversely, God is not willing that anyone should perish, but that will happen.
---James_L on 3/17/11


James L, you did not answer my passage. Or we not created in Christ Jesus for good works? I wait patiently for your answer.
---Mark_V. on 3/17/11


nana,
I got it.

Thanks
---James_L on 3/16/11


Craig, find a blog that deals with your answers, this one doesn't. We are talking about rewards. Not about free will or anyone getting saved or any parables. Those people that go to the Bema Seat of Christ are already saved. We are speaking about rewards for the Save. Pick another fight somewhere else.
---Mark_V. on 3/17/11


James_L,

If you read my last two entries, one after the other,
what does your reading tell you as to the question you just posed?
---Nana on 3/16/11


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nana,

who was your last post directed at?

Could you clarify what you were saying?
---James_L on 3/16/11


That sounds like a real Utopia and a win-win situation but, sadly, so far removed from reality and the responsibility that whosoever claim themselves to be should have.
---Nana on 3/16/11


--I believe there is no such thing as a genuine believer with no good works.--MarkV

Go read the parable of the talents AND the parable of the 10 virgins. (Matt 25).

Youll also notice that in verse 3 JESUS CHRIST said those that took oil were "wise" and those who didnt were "foolish". Doesnt sound much like election to me. Sounds like they made a decision to believe and follow Jesus Christ and be ready at his coming.

Maybe this is why you and Christan dont talk much about the parables of Christ.
---CraigA on 3/16/11


James L, you said,

"Where did I ever say the Bema is to determine our eternal destiny?"

Where did I question that? I said rewards. I think you are getting carried away here. Lets, let it go ok? You believe there is genuine believers with no good works to their credit who stand at the Bema Seat of Christ. Ok.

I believe there is no such thing as a genuine believer with no good works. "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them" Eph. 2:10.
The case should be close. peace to you.
---Mark_V. on 3/16/11


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Mark v,
I guess I must retract my statement of putting the issue to rest for now.

Where did I ever say the Bema is to determine our eternal destiny?

\\Faith by itself, standing all alone, without works, or effort, or any room for boasting is the only faith by which we escape the fires of hell.

But faith brought to maturity, full of works, is that faith by which we receive rewards\\
---James_L on 2/25/11


How do figure I'm off with the analogy of a house fire when your next comment echos what I've already been saying? The fire is God's discerning judgment. Some will have all their reward here, and lose all their reward there.
---James_L on 3/16/11


All genuine believers walk according to the Spirit. They are not perfect or sinless, so they do miss the mark sometimes, but walking in the spirit is their new disposition. Once forgiven for their sins once for all time, they become children of God guided by the Spirit and in Christ.

As to the question above, the word "believe" in Scripture is used in two different ways. Jesus use of "believe" many times means believe by faith. Other times when the word is use, it means with no faith, depending on the context.
---Mark_V. on 3/16/11


"This is not a judgment for sin since Christ has paid that price (Rom. 8:1) so that no believer will ever be judge for sin."
While I agree that the Scripture at hand is not for sin, the take on Romans 8, with that I totally disagree. In Romans 8
it is clearly stated that only those who "walk not after the flesh" and who therefore mind the things of the Spirit, will
suffer no comdemnation. It is not all believers, else devils would not be judged either.
---Nana on 3/15/11


James L, your so far off with your analogy of a house fire. 1 Cor 2:3, The fire mentioned is the fire of God's discerning judgment (Job 23:10, Zech. 13:9, 1 Peter 1:17, 18, Rev. 3:18). Works that endure, refers to things we accomplished in His power and for His glory will survive, (Matt. 25:21, 23, 2 Cor. 5:9, Phil. 3:13, 14, 1 Thess. 2:19, 20, 2 Tim. 4:7,8 etc.
This is not a judgment for sin since Christ has paid that price (Rom. 8:1) so that no believer will ever be judge for sin. This is only to determine eternal rewards check 4:5 which mentions somethings good, "Until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of his hearts. Then each ones praise will come from God"
---Mark_V. on 3/15/11


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Paul warns as to the raising of himself, Apollos or Cepas, to an unwarranted prominence. He declares, Christ is the foundation. In ministering, there may appear to be differences and bends along the way. Paul is saying that a man may err in some aspects of building the body of Christ, but sincerity, with a heart trusting, in faith labouring, his work may be worthless, yet he will be rewarded. Simply, God does not punish ignorance. Paul also encourages humility. He speaks not of all a man's work , only the work pertaining to the building on the foundation, the body of Christ. Our shortcomings and pet sins in other areas will count as to whether we stand either on the left or the right...
---Nana on 3/14/11


Mark V,
the scripture says "if any man's work remains"

denoting that it is possible for no work will remain.

It also says "if any man's work is burned up...he will be saved, yet as through fire."

What does it mean "yet as through fire" ?

I ask you again - have you ever been caught in a house fire?

Ask anyone who has been through a fire what they had left when they escaped.

I will be putting this argument to rest for now. But realize I have not failed to provide scriptural support, philosophical support and common sense for my position

Thanks for the debate, Mark.
---James_L on 3/13/11


James L, I'll say it again, no where does it say, "all works" you would have to add "All" to make it be what you want.
Another thing, Haz did not give up, I did. Maybe I should give up on you. I do feel like I am discussing things not to a pumpkin, as you discribed, but to a Christain who refuses to admit he falls short of the glory of God, (missing the mark).
---Mark_V. on 3/13/11


Mark V,
Maybe Haz "gave up" because he felt like he was explaining Christmas and Easter to a pumkin.

As for this discussion, maybe you could back up one verse and read

"IF any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will recieve a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."

See, first is the fire which tests the quality of our works. Then, rewards. What if a man's work is all burned up? It says right there!!

Will faith by itself save him from suffering loss (James 2:14)? NO. HE WILL SUFFER LOSS IF HIS WORK IS BURNED. But HE will be saved, as through a fire.

I ask again, have you ever been caught in a fire?
---James_L on 3/12/11


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James L, I just finished posting to Haz who is sinless and finally gave up. How can he be wrong. just not possible when someone is sinless. I sure hope you are not sinless.
Concerning what you ask you said,
"Could you kindly explain what Paul meant when he said some will have all their work burned up, and be saved as one escaping a fire?"
First of all, the passage does not say, "all their works burned up"
You need to read it again.
"If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire"
Believers have good and bad works, those works that are burned they will suffer loss.
---Mark_V. on 3/12/11


Faith is the substance of things HOPED FOR and the evidence of things NOT SEEN.

What do demons hope for?

Jesus Christ is our BLESSED HOPE. MY FAITH in Jesus death and resurrection, that HE took upon Himself MY SIN, and paid the penalty of death for me, that I may LIVE forever through Him, is a PERSONAL response. Upon acting upon that Personal response, I must then LIVE by the Faith of Christ IN ME.( because this is what I put my faith in..Jesus INN ME, the Hope of Glory.
---kathr4453 on 3/12/11


Mark V,

I could admit I am wrong if I actually am.

But you haven't produced any evidence that I am wrong. Your paradigm (doctrinal position) won't allow you to consider the many passages I've quoted.

Could you kindly explain what Paul meant when he said some will have all their work burned up, and be saved as one escaping a fire?

And since we began with James 2:14, can you explain why he would use the word "profit" ?
---James_L on 3/11/11


James L, even the Lepers did not help you. What is so wrong in admitting you are wrong? Is it so hard? You know I was wrong last week on two of my answers on two other blogs. It was great that they corrected me. I didn't mine at all. When others speak the Truth, we get convicted if we have the Spirit of God. What we want to make sure is that when we answer we do it for the right reason. I sometimes have to ask my wife if what I am saying is ok. I make mistakes just like everyone.
---Mark_V. on 3/11/11


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\\you need to come out with something better.\\
---Mark_V. on 3/9/11

What do you think my last NINE posts were? Was I was saving the best for last?

But since you reject Paul's words that some believers will have ALL their work burned up, and be saved as through a fire

since you rejected Jesus' words that there will be some unfaithful servants

since you cannot quote ANY scripture which says that genuine faith ALWAYS produces good works

since you want to hang on the word IF in James 2:14, with no regard to the word PROFIT

since you refuse to consider that James was speaking of the Bema in 2:12 and 3:1 so he was probably still on that subject in 2:14-26

then what am I left with? Lepers, I guess
---James_L on 3/10/11


James L, you need to come out with something better to your claim that believers don't have works. You actually made my case. Those who are truly saved do give thanks to God and do something good.
In the Lepers story only one gave thanks only one was saved by his faith. Jesus said after healing the ten lepers,
"were there not ten cleansed? But where are the nine? Were there not any found who return to give glory to God except this foreigner?"
Jesus said to him, "arise, go your way, Your faith has made you well"
Remember Rom. 1:21 that I gave you? those who are not save do not give thanks to God. " Because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful"
---Mark_V. on 3/9/11


MarkV,
In Luke 5:23, Jesus says "Which is easier, to say, 'Your sins have been forgiven you,' or to say, 'Get up and walk'?

Then in verses 31-32, Jesus said "It is not those who are well who need a physician, but those who are sick. I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance."

When Jesus healed, he used a physical phenomenon to portray a spiritual reality, like a visual parable.

In Luke 17, He told the leper who returned "Your FAITH has made you well." They all had the same faith (verse 13)

So the story is very much relevant to the discussion. Nine of the healed lepers didn't so much as say thank you
---James_L on 3/7/11


James L, you go to far with the lepers story,

"Jesus healed the lepers, and only one said thanks. Did that mean that Jesus didn't really heal the other nine? According to you, they "proved" that they never got healed in the first place."
You say according to me they never got healed, sorry, not according to me.
The context is about healing them of leprosy. All that passage tells us is that Jesus healed the ten and only one came back to give thanks, the others continued towards the priest. The response of this one leper was reminiscent of the conduct of Naaman in (2 Kings 5:15).
The leper story has nothing to do with genuine believers not having works.
---Mark_V. on 3/7/11


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1 TIMOTHY 2:7 For which I appointed a peacher and an apostles - Iam speaking the truth in Christ and not lying of the gentiles an FAITH and truth ( GREEK - FAITH - PISTIS - Definition - Belief - Trust - Confidence - FAITH is allways a gift from GOD - Human Belief is distinct - One's powers or abilities,)
---RICHARDC on 3/6/11


Mark V,
I'm not trying to change the subject. Here is why I referenced the ten lepers:

\\believer stands at the "Bema" Seat of Christ with not one thing to show as having done good? Never gave thanks to God for even saving him.\\ on 3/4/11

Jesus healed the lepers, and only one said thanks. Did that mean that Jesus didn't really heal the other nine? According to you, they "proved" that they never got healed in the first place.

Jesus said wheat and tares look the same, but the harvest will show them. He never said there is any "evidence" of faith found in our works.

Paul said we are justified APART from works. But your idea is that faith is not apart from works.
---James_L on 3/6/11


James L, I do not know what healing ten lepers has to do with anything we are discussing. You just don't want to admit that you are wrong on this issue James, and want to change the topic. We were talking about genuine believers, and you said they have no works at the Bema Seat of Christ. I said you were wrong. Genuine believers are those who are saved by Grace through faith.
Works do not save anyone. And once you are saved, you never lose salvation. But saving faith always produces good fruits. If you do not produce good fruits by faith in Christ, you could not possibly be saved, for anything without faith in Christ is sin. For it does not bring glory and honor to God. All the good works you do without faith in Christ only bring more sin.
---Mark_V. on 3/6/11


Mark V,
I notice your last post was lacking scriptural reference. Paul, James and Jesus refute your claim. Jesus healed ten lepers and only one came back to thank Him. Why were stories like that told? Were they fake stories?

I know it is appalling to think that someone could abuse the grace of God, but justification is APART from works. In your view, faith and works are one, not apart. It means you believe a person has to be good to go to heaven.

Jesus said in the Sermon on the Mount that motives play a big part in our works, too.
---James_L on 3/5/11


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James L, I am straining a little here with you and you are right. Because don't you know how ridiculous it sounds that a person whether saved or not never does one thing good? And then you say a genuine believer stands at the "Bema" Seat of Christ with not one thing to show as having done good? Never gave thanks to God for even saving him. Never gave money for a good cause, never helped someone in life, nothing you say. Not one thing. That argument I can never win no matter how many times I answer you.
Here it is again: A child of God who never bears good fruit, hah. Sorry James, but that would be someone who always did bad things, never one good thing, just not possible. Even criminals do some good things.
---Mark_V. on 3/4/11


MarkV,
I think you are straining a little on your applications of metaphors, parables and similes. But that's neither here no there I suppose.

As for the three scriptres you quoted, there is no mention of inevitability of works. John 15:8 says "fruit" proves that we are disciples, but what if there's no proof?

"Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue, for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God." (John 12:42-43)
---James_L on 3/3/11


James L, I'm sorry you don't believe all believers have works. God's Word says,

"For by grace you have been saved (the believers) through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."

God prepared beforehand that we be saved by grace through faith, not by our own works. And were created in Christ Jesus for good works. There is no, maybe he will do good works or not, it was prepared beforehand, in times past. They are God-empowered fruits and evidence of salvation, John 15:8, Phil. 2:12,13, 2 Tim. 3:17.
---Mark_V. on 3/3/11


James L 2: continue,
a parable means "to throw or place alongside." Thus a parable is something place alongside something else for the purpose of comparison. It is not a metaphor. Metaphors are an unexpressed comparison: it does not use the words "like" or "as." The subject and the thing with which it is being compared are intertwined rather than kept separate. Jesus use metaphors when He said, "I am the bread of Life." the author does not intend his words to be taken literally. Jesus didn't say, "I am "like" the bread of life" If He had it would be a simile, which uses "like" or "as" like: The kingdom of heaven is like..."
---Mark_V. on 3/3/11


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MarkV,
Paul wrote to saints, not sinners at Corinth.

In Matt 25:26, the master agrees with the servant in that he reaps where he doesn't sow.

But the parables are not meant for each aspect to exactly describe the person or subject. The parables are metaphors, or word pictures.

Just like Luke 18:1-8, Jesus tells a parable about the widow and the wicked judge. The wicked judge was representative of (through contrast) God.

The point in a parable is the overall point, not small details. And Jesus' point in Matt 25 is that some believers will have nothing to show for their time spent, and they will suffer loss.

Look at the parable of the sower. the last three all believed, and yet not all produced fruit
---James_L on 3/2/11


James L, Yes, there were many bad things going on in Corinth. Mixed with believers and unbelievers.
Concerning Matthew 25:26-30 v. 24 starts with "a hard man" his characterization of the master malign the man as a cruel and ruthless opportunist. 'reaping and gathering" what he had no right to claim as his own. This slothful servant does not represent a genuine believer, for it is obvious that this man had no true knowledge of the master. His accusations against his master-even if it had been true-did not justify his own laziness. V.29 he goes to everyone who has, refers to recipients of divine grace inherit immeasurable blessings in addition to eternal life and the favor of God (Rom. 8:32).
---Mark_V. on 3/2/11


MarkV,
I agree that Paul spoke to them as carnal, immature.

The Corinthians were full of strife, factions, sexual immorality, irreverence toward the Lord's Supper, boasting, drunkenness, you name it. I don't see much for good works from those rascals.

Paul also said in Colossians 3:23-24 "Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men, knowing that from the Lordyou will receive the inheritance as a reward"

Why waste words commanding something that's going to be done anyway? If works were inevitable, there wouldn't be any admonition to work.

As Jesus said, the unfaithful servant will have everything taken from him (Matt 25:26-30)
---James_L on 3/1/11


James L, I have read 1 Cor. 3 from beginning to end. The believers he was speaking to he had to speak to them as carnal, as babies in Christ. He goes on to say v.9,
"For we are God's fellow workers, you are God's field, you are God's building"
If they are genuine believers they are workers for Christ, doing good works. Otherwise they are not genuine believers. Go to Romans 7:4 where we are told'"Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married together-to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God"
If you are dead through the body of Christ you will produce good holiness fruit. All believers do.
---Mark_V. on 3/1/11


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MarkV,

No, not all believers will have works.

What did Paul mean when he said our works will be tested with fire, and some will have all their works burn iup as wood, hay, and stubble?

He also said that person would be saved "as one escaping a fire"

Have you ever been in a house fire? I have been.

Guess what I had left after getting out. NOTHING

It all got burned up. Had I not been wearing pajamas, I would have escaped totally naked. That's what Paul said about the Bema.

Some BELIEVERS will have ALL their works burned up, and will be left with nothing. They will suffer loss.

That's in 1Corinthians 3:12-14 if you care to take a look at what Paul had to say on the matter.
---James_L on 2/28/11


James L, I only answered because you put down the "Bema" Seat of Christ. At that judgment only believers will be there. All others go to the Great White Throne of Judgment.
All believers and non-believers have good and bad works, (or fruits). For the believer when he walks in the Spirit, he does many good works because of the love he has for Christ. His heart has been changed towards Christ.
For the non-believer, he too does a lot of works good and bad, but because of lack of faith in Christ, all he does is sin, for anything without faith is sin. The non-believer has no glory to give to Christ. He is a law unto himself. He does not acknowledge that all good things comes from above (God).
---Mark_V. on 2/28/11


James L,

When James is speaking he is not speaking to one particular person. He is making a statement. And what is that statement? " What does it profit" in other words what do you gain" "my brethren, "if" someone says he has faith but does not have works"
The answer is he gains nothing.
Originally you said:
"2:14 says what if a man shows up at the Bema (expecting to get rewards) yet has no works? can faith save him from suffering loss? No."
you suggested the passage is saying that someone is at the Bema Seat of Christ and finds out he has no works. I said no one who is an unbeliever finds himself at the Bema Seat of Christ. All believers have works.
---Mark_V. on 2/28/11


Mark,
The text does not say he only "claimed" to have faith. You're adding to it.

Also, did you notice the word "profit"? That means YOU invest something, and YOU get back more than YOU put in.

Do we make an investment to go to heaven? Buy our way in?

Can faith without works save him? I agree the answer is NO. But the question must be save him from what???

Context, context, context, Mark. What judgment is James talking about in 2:12? who will be there? and the same for 3:1?

It is judgment for believers, by the Law of Liberty. It is a rewards judgment for US. But what if we have no works?? Will people be cast from the Bema to hell? NO, we will suffer loss (1Cor 1:14-15)
---James_L on 2/27/11


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James L,
Again, the context does not speak of "Bema" Seat of Christ. It speaks of genuine faith. James says "What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works?" James does not say this person actually has faith, but "if" he claims to have it, and does not have works, refers to all righteous behavior that conforms to God's revealed Word, here the context is speaking about compassion (v. 15) can that faith save him? better translated, "can that kind of faith save?" The answer is no. Genuine faith always produces good works. Because the work we produce is influence by Christ who lives in us. That's why Christ gets the glory for our good works.
---Mark_V. on 2/27/11


Mark V,

When I said "James 2:14 says" what I meant was "in context, James 2:14 says"

That passage addresses believers. James says "What use is it, My Brethren..."

it sure doesn't say that the man merely "claims" to have faith

That wouldn't even make sense when James is clearly in the context of the Bema. Read verse 2:12 and 3:1. You think James starts out talking about Bema, then White Throne, then Bema? all within 15 verses? There is no evidence that his thoughts are that sporadic.

Read an introduction to the book of James. Virtually all of them note how similar it is to the Sermon on the Mount.

What was Jesus teaching? Rewards.
---James_L on 2/26/11


James L, I believe your confused. What you said of James:
"2:14 says what if a man shows up at the Bema (expecting to get rewards) yet has no works? can faith save him from suffering loss? No."
First of all, 2: 14 does not say what you said, Second, God does not make mistakes. He does not send unbelievers to the "Bema" Seat of Christ only to find out later they have no good works. Only true believers go there. And they all have good works and some bad works.
Unbelievers go to the "Great White Throne of Judgment" And their works, which are bad, since they do not have the imputed righteousness of Christ. Because without faith in Christ whatever they did was sin.
---Mark_V. on 2/25/11


Well put, Eloy, Mark V, and James L.
True genuine faith is honored by God, whether in the new believer or the seasoned saint. James' point,
I believe, is that the evidence of faith is the quantity and quality of good "works" that result.

FAITH is an abstact...Like a colorless, tasteless, odorless gas, it cannot be directly observed! Works, or actions, on the other hand may be seen by many. How can we know that one is a true believer in Jesus Christ? Only by the works they display.
The "works" don't "make" them a Christian, but being Christian, impels them to work.
---Donna66 on 2/25/11


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\\True genuine faith always produces good works.\\
---Mark_V. on 2/23/11



Not so. Maturing faith produces works. But not all are maturing.

James 2:14-26 is not a proper sectioning of scripture. Read 2:12-3:1

2:12 says we will be judged (which will be at the Bema).

3:1 says teachers will be judged stricter (at the Bema)

2:14 says what if a man shows up at the Bema (expecting to get rewards) yet has no works? can faith save him from suffering loss? No.

Faith by itself, standing all alone, without works, or effort, or any room for boasting is the only faith by which we escape the fires of hell.

But faith brought to maturity, full of works, is that faith by which we receive rewards
---James_L on 2/25/11


I'm with what Eloy and Christian stated. "True faith has action:
James 2:14-22 James does not say that this person he is talking about actually has genuine faith, but that he claims to have it. "Faith" is best understood in a broad sense, speaking of any degree of acceptance of the Truths of the gospel. "does not have" again, the verb's form describes someone who continually lacks any external evidence of the faith he routinely claims. "Works" refers to all righteous behavior that conforms to God's revealed Word, but here in context specifically, to acts of compassion. True genuine faith always produces good works, because Christ is working through him, and God gets all the glory.
---Mark_V. on 2/23/11


Faith in God is Belief, trust, dependence, reliance, confidence in, having total assurance, not doubting, knowing, obeying, following, and living for Jesus Christ. Faith is action, actively doing God's will with the complete trust that Jesus is Almighty, and he is more than able to do above all that what we ask or think. Faith is knowing that what is impossible with man, is possible with God, for God can do All things and no thing is impossible with God.
---Eloy on 2/21/11


I believe at an airplane can fly, but it takes faith to get in one and let it take off.
---Harold on 2/21/11


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NO, believe & faith are not equal. Believe may be expressed but not practised. Faith is believe-in-action. The only biblical passage that comes to my mind now is the parable that the Lord Jesus Christ gave the Jews in Matt.21: 28-32.
---Adetunji on 2/21/11


Craig,

Maybe

:)
---James_L on 2/18/11


Belief in Christ is knowledge that something is there. God is good is a belief.
God is good so I will be able to do this, overcome this, etc is faith. Faith in Christ has an undeniable trust in him. Follow God when it does not make sense that is faith.
---Scott on 2/18/11


"Faith" and "belief" can be used synonymously and interchangeably in speech and in writing: however "faith" usually emphasizes confidence and conviction, whereas "belief" can denote a mere superficial and flipant thought.
---Eloy on 2/18/11


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Did you really just pull a Bill Clinton on me, James?
---CraigA on 2/18/11


Craig,
What you are describing about the demons is belief about, not belief in.

I believe our president has a lot of power. I also believe he will excercise his power many times. But, I do not look to him with confidence that he will come through on his promises

In other words, to borrow the wording from James 2:19, I believe there is one president.

But I sure don't believe in him

James 2:14-26 is not addressing the nature of faith. That is an all-too-common example of the word "saved" being put in a vacuum, and then misapplied there
---James_L on 2/17/11


James, sorry but I disagree with you there. Demons knew who Jesus Christ was. They knew he was the Son of God. Therefore they knew God. They even knew that their time is limited before the judgement. (Matt 8:28-30)

The only thing they didnt know was Gods plan of salvation concerning him. It was kept secret. If they had known that plan they wouldnt have driven men to crucify him. (1 Cor 2:8)
---CraigA on 2/17/11


Faith is what you BELIEVE IN.

Just to believe there is a God is not faith.

Faith is trusting that what God said is true, that Jesus Christ died for your sin, and that who so ever believes this, and places their trust IN HIM will not perish but have everlasting Life.

Many people do believe Jesus Christ is the son of God who died for sin..., but have Never put their own personal faith and trust in that promise!

It must be made personal.
---kathr4453 on 2/17/11


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Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who diligently seek him.

belief in his existence (using logic)

and

faith given to those who seek him (using Logos)
---aka on 2/16/11


Believing in something is just an acknowledgment that it exists. It is not faith

I believe in space travel ... even though I have not actually seen the space ships, nevertheless I believe in... that they exist.

But I do not believe on space travel or space ships. I do not have faith that they will provide some super answer to all (or any) of our present problems.

It is easy to believe in Christ ... it is well proven after all that this man Jesus existed. It is something else to believe on Him, to have Faith in what He did for us.
---alan8566_of_uk on 2/16/11


"believe in" is easier to describe than define.

About 20 years ago, I said to my mom "I know what I want to do with my life"

When I told her, she said "Yeah right, like you could ever pull that off"

My response to her was "That's been your biggest problem for my entire life. You don't believe in me"

Was I asking her to believe I exist? or believe I'm her son? or believe I'm this or that?

NO. I was asking her to have confidence in me that what I set out to, I can accomplish. Believe in me, have faith in me same thing

Moderator, shame on you!!! demons do not believe IN God, as you wrongly assert. They believe God is One (James 2:19). Big difference.
---James_L on 2/16/11


CraigA, I believe in demons, but I don't have faith in them, nor do I put any faith in them. Does that answer your question?

It's not the same to believe and have faith in someone or something. You can believe in Jesus, but do you put your faith in Him? I think we think we do, but doubt creeps in sometimes, doesn't it? "Will he do it for me?"
---Donna5535 on 2/16/11


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Have faith IN the laws of physics, but don't love them. HAVING THE ABILITY TO BELIEVE SOMETHING doesn't please God, but believing that

1) HE EXISTS.
2) also believing He is a REWARDER (not PUNISHER) is what God desires (it is His WILL/WISH).
Hebrews 11:6
"whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him".

For spiritual GROWTH (MATURITY), we must have a "FAITH FOR faith" and love Him for being a kind God.

Romans 1:17
"God is revealed through FAITH FOR FAITH".

When we move on to a MATURE DEVOTION, we should no longer have faith "toward" God, but a faith FOR faith (Hebrews 6:1 "dead works and of faith toward God).
---more_excellent_way on 2/16/11


It's the same word in the Greek NT.
---Cluny on 2/16/11


Well said Moderator! For James 2:19 declares, "Thou believest that there is one God, thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble." And they are going to the Lake of Fire though they believe, what about the man?

For many will say they believe in Jesus Christ just like the demons, and the Lord Jesus will say to them on the last day, "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Matthew 7:23. Why? Because,

John 6:44, "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." Here Christ kills the notion of the man who claims he can turn to Him on his own will.
---christan on 2/16/11


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