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Four Marian Dogmas

Here are the four Marian dogmas of the Roman Catholic Church.
1. Mother of God
2. Immaculate conception
3. Perpetual virginity
4. Assumption
The Bible supports none of these dogmas. Because all four dogmas are false. Who is right?

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 ---mima on 2/24/11
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Cluny,the simplest child knows that repentance needs to be the first step before asking tuly forgiveness, it's like this old joke ilustrates a boy enter the confessioonary the priest gives the blessing and the child says forgive me father for i have sinned, i beat my mother insulted my father, and i just lied to you...
whatever is the formula one uses, cofession or prayer a contrite herat ius the beginning.
---andy3996 on 3/3/11


andy3996, nobody is denying that we are all sinners.

What I'm saying is that the idea of simply saying a "sinner's prayer" and you are automatically thereby saved and fixed for time and eternity is a tradition and precept of men and is nothing more or less than salvation by works.
---Cluny on 3/2/11


to those who reject the prayer of the sinner

The lord's prayer, and forgive us OUR TRESPESSES as we forgive those who trespassed against us . tyhat sounds like a confession of sin to me, and look at that it the LORD that teached us.
---andy3996 on 3/2/11


Philomena:

That is because, despite their incorporating traditions of men in the West, they also affirmed sound Ancient Apostolic Doctrines.

The perpetual virginity of Mary and the affirmation of the title "Theotokos" was believed by the Ancient Fathers, can be verified in the Ancient Church liturgies/documents, and even affirmed by the Holy Ecumenical Synods of the Church.

As far as Scriptures, many Protestant Greek Scholars/Historians will tell you that one can not affirm nor deny Mary's perpetual virginity on the Greek New Testament alone (-->Francis Pieper, Christian Dogmatics, 4 vols & Mary in the New Testament: A Collaborative Assessment by Protestant and Roman Catholic Scholars).

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 2/26/11


Isn't it interesting that Luther, Calvin, Cranmer, and Zwingli accepted the belief of the perpetual virginity of Mary and that she was the Theotokos, the Mother of God? Luther also believed in Mary's Immaculate Conception. Have you ever read the early fathers of the Church to see what they believed? It's amazing that these beliefs are now rejected by so many.
---Philomena on 2/26/11




I've noticed that when mima is asked a direct question about he thinks "Immaculate Conception" means, he doesn't answer, but he is quick to say what a great hit man for Jesus he is.

Be that as it may (and it shall), I'm seeing St. Simeon's prophecy fulfilled here.

"Yea, a sword shall pierce your own soul that the thoughts of many shall be revealed."

In other words, what you think about Mary will affect what you think about Jesus.

And some people here are so anxious to totally remove the Virgin from the Incarnation that they start believing that Jesus didn't have a real human nature as a descendant of Adam, as the Bible says He is.
---Cluny on 2/25/11


Story concerning the sinner's prayer.
Once after witnessing to a coworker(he worked in the same company) I say do you you want to pray for your salvation and he said yes. As I started to lead him in a sinner's prayer he said, I'm not going to use your words I'm going to use my words and proceeded to ask Jesus Christ to come into his heart to save his soul on his own. Fellow workers said this man had immediate change of heart
---mima on 2/25/11


Thanks Cluny!
---alan8566_of_uk on 2/25/11


Cluny, it depends on what we mean, I think (c: The Bible says, in one place, "For even His brothers did not believe in Him." (John 7:5) So, it is clear that Jesus had "brothers" who were unbelievers.

But elsewhere Jesus says, "Who is My mother, or My brothers?" in Mark 3:33. And then He says, "whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother," in Mark 3:35. And a number of women who are His "mother" did not have Jesus conceived in their wombs.

And was Mary being His "mother" in this way, by calling to Jesus from outside the house right while He was ministering??? Mark 3:31-35
---Bill_willa6989 on 2/25/11


\\What is the plural of "dogma?
---alan8566_of_uk on 2/25/11\\

Either "dogmas" or "dogmata".
---Cluny on 2/25/11




\\Well . . . (1) Jesus is "the Son of God", not truly the son of Mary, since she is not God. \\

If Jesus is not the son of Mary, then the "brothers and sisters" are not really His siblings, now are they?
---Cluny on 2/25/11


Cluny ... I think Mima's definition of "dogma" is correct.

So altar calls and sinners prayers are practices of some protestant churches, not dogma.

Once saved always saved and pre-trib rapture are not universal dogma among protestants

What is the plural of "dogma?
---alan8566_of_uk on 2/25/11


Here's a definition of dogmas.
"Dogma is the established belief or doctrine held by a religion, or by extension by some other group or organization. It is authoritative and not to be disputed, doubted, or diverged from, by the practitioner or believers."
---mima on 2/25/11

Where in scripture does it say all doctrine must be in scripture in order to be true?
---Rubenr on 2/25/11


mima, what do you think "Immaculate Conception of the Virgin" means?
---Cluny on 2/25/11


mima, here are your dogams:

1. Sinner's prayer.

2.. Once prayed, always saved.

3. Altar calls.

4. Pre-trib rapture.

The Bible supports none of these dogmas. Because all four dogmas are false.

Who is right?
---Cluny on 2/25/11


Well . . . (1) Jesus is "the Son of God", not truly the son of Mary, since she is not God. (2) Mary did not have to be sinless in order for Jesus to be in her body, because Jesus is holy and therefore not in danger of being contaminated by physical contact with an imperfect person. He let a woman kiss His feet and dry them with her hair, and this did not corrupt Him!!! (c: (3) The Bible says Jesus had "brothers", and nowhere does the Holy Spirit in inspired scripture have the need to clarify otherwise. (4) The Assumption may be an assumption by cultic people who tried to find her body that Christians hid from their scavenging attempts.
---Bill_willa6989 on 2/25/11


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Here's a definition of dogmas.
"Dogma is the established belief or doctrine held by a religion, or by extension by some other group or organization. It is authoritative and not to be disputed, doubted, or diverged from, by the practitioner or believers."
---mima on 2/25/11


Or who do ya wanta trust?
---Elder on 2/24/11


"Mother of God" is actually a CHRISTOLOGICAL dogma.

It's about Who JESUS is.

Luke 1:41-43.

''41 When Elizabeth heard Marys greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42 In a loud voice she exclaimed: Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43 But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?''

And just WHO is the Lord but God?

In effect, inspired by the Holy Spirit, Elizabeth called Mary "Mother of YHVH."
---Cluny on 2/24/11


Holy Tradition (i.e., Holy Scriptures, Ancient Liturgies, the Witness of the Fathers, the Ancient Holy Ecumenical Synods, and Holy Icons) support the first, third, and fourth (while the second is a pure Latin innovation) .

Mima, Sola Scriptura is not a biblical doctrine. That is your tradition of men. We don't need to play by your rules.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 2/24/11


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Oh, Mima, you do try to cause strife don't you?

Mary was the mother of Jesus.
Jesus is God.
The RCC states that when they call her mother of God, they mean just that she was mother of Jesus.

But some deny that she was His real mother, and say she just carried an implanted embryo.

Which is worse ... to say Mary is mother of Jesus. or to say she was just a "rent-a-womb"?

The Bible is silent as to whether Mary was sinless from birth. I believe she was a normal human, and that she did sin, but there is no biblical proof

The Bible does not actually state Mary had further chidren. I believe she did, but there is no biblical proof.
---alan8566_of_uk on 2/24/11


I suppose that, at the time of the early church, there were cultic people who would have wanted to get a hold of Mary's body, for superstitious purposes. So, the Christians buried her where ones would not find her. And so, when the cultic ones could not find her body, they could have gotten the idea that she had been taken up, without dying, in what ones call the "Blessed Assumption" . . . quite an assumption for them to make.
---Bill_willa6989 on 2/24/11


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