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2nd Commandment In Bible

Does the Roman Catholic Bible include the 2nd Commandment?
Does the Roman Catholic Catechism include the 2nd Commandment?

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Eloy has spoken what he claims is the truth "the published catholic catechism clearly excludes the second commanmdment"

This is the actual published Catechism which show the 2nd Commandment is not excluded.

Article 1

THE FIRST COMMANDMENT

I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth, you shall not bow down to them or serve them.
It is written: "You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve."
---alan8566_of_uk on 3/4/11


Eloy:

You always claim to speak truth.

On 3/2/11 you said: Jasheradan, again, you post falsehood because there is no light in you. ... No where in the scriptures is there found SAINT Paul being a sinner after his conversion to holy Christ.

I do not accuse you of "posting falsehood because there is no light in you" (as you do others), nor hypocrisy for doing what you accuse others of, but see 1 Timothy 1:15:
"This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief."

Paul called himself chief sinner AFTER his conversion - a humility and lack of reliance in self-righteousness that unfortunately many Christians lack.
---StrongAxe on 3/4/11


\\Igantius, you said,

"
Who cares what people think?"

God cares.\\

But MarkV, God is not people.

**But I was once a Catholic, and the thing that pulled me out was the idol worship.**

MarkV, if you saw true idolatry--that is, the giving of LATREIA that is owed to God alone to anything else--you should have realized that this existed not because of the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church, but IN SPITE OF IT.
---Cluny on 3/4/11


You cry "Idolatry" to any one who have any image or statue, but Scriptures does not. IGNatius

I do not cry Idolatroy to anyone who has an image. Just those who bow down to, light candles to and put the word of the dead person above the word of GOD.

You cry "Sola Scriptura",but Scriptures does not. IGNatius

You state this in spite of passage after passage that teaches Scripture is the final authoirty. I suggest you type in Scripture to a Bible search engine.
---Samuel on 3/4/11


Who do you pray to?


Hebrew-greek-aramaic English etc...etc...

The definitive is still the same---God knows who we are praying to- We can be obedient to HIS INSTRUCTIONS or not.

Matt 6:9-15 [After this manner therefore pray ye]:

[Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name]....


He is judge-He is who we will answer to.
Praise Him for His mercy and grace.
Repentance unto remission...
---char on 3/4/11




Mark V-

You fail to mention that God's people began making sacred images and worshiping them, with "Lateria", which was due to God alone. Their problem was idolatry.

God had no problem with the Sacred Images in the Tabernacle and later in the Temple (Ex. 25:18, Ex. 26:1,37, 1st Kings 6:23,29,32, 1st Kings 7:29,36). Christ never spoke against the images in the Temple, yet he worshiped there, led liturgical services, and taught there.

If we read Exodus 20 in Hebrew and the Greek text (LXX), we are told that God commanded His people not to make Idols out of images. He did not condemn Images in general (the LXX is clear about this).

When will you answer the questions I asked you before?

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 3/4/11


Mark V,

Was your Protestant Father a Idolater?:

"I have myself heard those who oppose pictures, read from my German Bible. . . . But this contains many pictures of God, of the angels, of men, and of animals [...] We therefore kindly beg these fanaties to permit us also to paint these pictures on the wall that they may be remembered and better understood, inasmuch as they can harm as little on the walls as in books. Would to God that I could persuade those who can afford it to paint the whole Bible on their houses, inside and outside, so that all might see , this would indeed be a Christian work. For I am convinced that it is God's will...." (Martin Luther, quoted in Ohl pp. 88-89)

In IC.XC.,
---IGNatius on 3/4/11


Oh come on now. Its perfectly obvious that the 2nd commandment means do not make images of things that are in the heaven (birds etc), things on the earth (cattle etc) ,and things in the water under the earth (fish etc) to worship THEM!

Where does it say for us not to honor our LORD by making a beautiful image of Him?

When the children of Israel made graven images.....WHAT kinds of things did they make? Think about it!
---CraigA on 3/4/11


Igantius, you said,

"
Who cares what people think?"


God cares. The Bible reveals that whenever God's people began making sacred images, it was clear sign that they had departed from God: Their practice never drew them close to God. Without exception it had the opposite effect. Note what Jeremiah said of the Israelites, Jeremiah 10:3-5 and 9-10. What Jeremiah says is exactly what the RCC has done with their idols, decorating them, and carrying them around in religious processions. God pleaded with Israel to return to Him, reminding them of the uselessness of their idols and of His own faithfulness. God's displeasure at being represented in the form of a sacred image marks the darker moments in Israel's history.
---Mark_V. on 3/3/11


Igantius, let me also say that I am not a person that has an agenda against the RCC or the Eastern Orthodox. I do speak against some of their articles of faith and traditions. But I was once a Catholic, and the thing that pulled me out was the idol worship. I have witnessed for myself what it does to people. They build shrines to idols, ask them for their help, and expect those the idols represent to answer. They light up candles, bend their knees to them, cry and beg the idols for help. In many places I visited Jesus was no where to be found. They abandon Christ with their idols, and raise the image of Mary to deity. And it is condoned by the Church and justified by most of you.
---Mark_V. on 3/3/11




Mark V

Why do you keep shying away from the fact that you accept a extra biblical and anti-biblical tradition of men, namely Sola Scriptura?

It is quite clear that Scriptures has not been made cleared to you. So let me try once more. The issue here is not about Idolatry, but about whether having images in genereal equal Idolatry or is it the heart of the individual (i.e., having a image and giving divine worship ["lateria"] to it).

The Bible supports the later. You believe in the former.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 3/3/11


#2

The Greek Translation of the Old Testament (LXX) (used almost exclusively by Jesus, & the Holy Apostles) render Exodus 20:4-5 as referring to Idols specifically ("eidoloi") and the Hebrew word "pesel" (graven images) is never used in reference to any of the images in the temple. So clearly the reference here is to pagan images rather than images in general.

Do you have pictures of your loved ones or a driver's license? Using your logic, it is idolatry even to have pictures of your loved ones , even pictures of your pets and carrying a picture license. Why are you on a computer, if it is projecting a "image" made by man? Do you own calendars that have images?

In IC.XC.,
---IGnatius on 3/3/11


#3

Jewish liturgical services involves Holy Icons and Statues ((Ex. 25:18, Ex. 26:1,37, 1st Kings 6:23,29,32, 1st Kings 7:29,36). Holy Icons enriched the Tabernacle and then later in the Temple. The Second Commandment forbid making a image AND worshiping it (the LXX makes this clear), not a condemnation of all images (otherwise God contradicted himself and purposely condemn Israel).

You cry "Idolatry" to any one who have any image or statue, but Scriptures does not. You cry "Sola Scriptura", but Scriptures does not.

You are too caught up in condemning RCC in any little detail that you can't even see that you follow traditions of men, and are misinterpreting Scriptures.

In IC.XC.,
---IGNatius on 3/3/11


I say truth, and you say lie: I say truth again, and you say lie again. I am finished posting about this blog. This is the final word, the published catholic catechism clearly excludes the second commanmdment, and then splits the 10th commandment into two separate comandemnts in order to make up for the 2nd commandment they have excluded. And also the published catholic bible clearly changed the 2nd commandment to allow familiar gods.
---Eloy on 3/3/11


Exodus 20:3 in Hebrew: Lo-yihyeh lecha elohim acherim al-panai.
Literally: Not-there-will-be to-you gods others to-my-face.
Idiomatically: You will not have other gods before me.

The English word "strange" can mean "different" or "unknown" (as in "stranger").

Christians who strongly push the idea of trinitiarianism in the old testament often remark of the use of the "elohim" for the singular God, and clearly the second commandment is not a prohibition of THESE kinds of "gods", who ARE "familiar").

In Psalm 82:6 God uses "gods" towards those to whom the word of God is addressed (Jesus mentions this in John 10:34).
---StrongAxe on 3/4/11


Eloy that is not the full catechism you are quoting. I will quote it again. You might not like this, but it is the truth.

PART THREE
LIFE IN CHRIST

SECTION TWO
THE TEN COMMANDMENTS

CHAPTER ONE
"YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND"

ARTICLE 1
THE FIRST COMMANDMENT


I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth, you shall not bow down to them or serve them.
---alan8566_of_uk on 3/3/11


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Igantius, you are so caught up in your idol worship that you have no idea how God is displease with what the RCC and others who not only make sacred images but also worship those images. Every time Israel did that God punished them for generations.
"Their idols are silver and gold, the work of human hands, They have mouths but do not speak, eyes, but do not see. They have ears, but do not hear, noses but do not smell. They have hands but do not feel, feet but do not walk, they do not make a sound in their throat. "Those who make them become like them, so do all who Trust in them"
---Mark_V. on 3/3/11


Eloy, a man of God should know that you cant judge one person by the actions of another.

Why then do you insist upon labeling all Catholics as idol worshippers?

Do all people of your denomination blaspheme by giving themselves Gods name?
---Jasheradan on 3/3/11


YOu asked Ignatius who cares what people think?

Paul says we are supposed to care. On eating food offered to idols Paul said the stonger is supposed to limit his freedom for the weaker. Yet you say no.

Also when your action can justify those who actually do worship the idol and give them the belief that it is okay. Is that good? How many are actually worshipping the image?

Many do not know the difference. My Father in law who was raised Roman Catholic. Spoke how as a child the image was worshipped.
---Samuel on 3/3/11


andy3996, It was neither of them. I believe it was a catholic, whom after companying with a Christian realized that their catechism and Bible were different then the Christian Holy Bible. They learned that the catechism ommitted the 2nd commandment, and that their Bible changed the 2nd commandment to allow familiar gods:
The Douay-Rheims Bible used by the catholics states in Exodus 20:3,
"Thou shalt not have strange gods before me."
But the King James Bible used by the Christians states in Exodus 20:3,
"Thou shalt have No other gods before me."
---Eloy on 3/3/11


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"Bowing to an image is called veneraton by many. But it looks and sounds like adoration to most.
---Samuel on 3/2/11

Who cares what people think? Is it not the heart of the individual that matters?

Scriptures, in their Hebrew and Greek translations, makes the distinction. Why can't you and others?

In Japan, people show respect by bowing in greeting (the equivalent of the Western handshake).

Who here can dare to say that they are Idolaters?

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 3/2/11


Alan, that is not the catechism you are quoting. For I already quoted the catechism. And you might not like this, but it is the truth. The published catholic catechism:
1. I am the LORD your God. You shall worship the Lord your God and Him only shall you serve.
2. MISSING- You will not make to you any graven image: you will not bow down yourself to them, nor worship them.
3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
---Eloy on 3/2/11


\\Bowing to an image is called veneraton by many. But it looks and sounds like adoration to most.\\

If a person can tell the difference with himself in his own mind, surely God, Who knows the mind and heart can, too.

So what other people might think really doesn't matter then, does it?
---Cluny on 3/2/11


It is true Most Catachism and all RCC Bibles of which I have two have the second commandement in them. Some Catachism have a short version of the Ten Commandments just like some Protestants display a short version.

The RCC have a difference between veration and adoration. But when I was Catholic and many I know did not know the difference. Which is why when a image is damaged they consider it sacriliege.

Bowing to an image is called veneraton by many. But it looks and sounds like adoration to most.
---Samuel on 3/2/11


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Mark V

Unless you reject your extra biblical and anti-biblical traditions of men (such as Sola Scriptura) you are in no position to teach.

"Does the Bible teach that images awakens our faith or nourishes it?"

It neither affirm it or deny it (although the first generations of Christians thought so).

Sorry Mark V, but I won't bend over and follow your man-made tradition of Sola Scriptura like a obedient dog.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 3/2/11


MarkV, Leslie, Eloy, Mima

Have any of you actually read the Roman Catholic Bible?

It's easy enough to do ... Just Google "Vulgate Bible"

You will find what we Protestants number as the 2nd of the Ten Commandments is there in full.
---alan8566_of_uk on 3/2/11


Eloy ... No you do not preach only the truth.

Sometimes you get it wrong.

These words appear in the RCC Catechism ... "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth, you shall not bow down to them or serve them"

You may not like it, but it is true
---alan8566_of_uk on 3/2/11


Cluny:

I was merely making comments about logical fallacies, not making a theological point.

Perhaps "all apples are fruits, but not all fruits are apples" would illustrate this just as well.
---StrongAxe on 3/2/11


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Mark V "But what does the Bible have to say about the making of sacred images and venerating the persons they represent?"

I have told you many times before that Scriptures makes a distinction between Idols (Idolatry) and Images in general. In fact, several non-Catholics/Orthodox in this site have also mention it. Is it our fault that you refuse to listen to sound Biblical doctrines?

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 3/2/11


\\Does the Bible teach that images awakens our faith or nourishes it?\\

Does the Bible teach that it deadens faith or starves it?

As I said, SS is YOUR rule, not the rule of the Bible itself.
---Cluny on 3/2/11


Mima ... If you had the courage to read Exodus 20 in the RCC Bible you would find that the 2nd Commandment has NOT been omitted.

Eloy ... and I have proven to you that the RCC full Catechism does include the 2nd Commandment

MarkV ... The words I quoted come from the Catholic Catechism.

The RCC does NOT omit the 2nd Commandment. It has other faults but this is not one of them.

Larry ... Both the cathoilc Bible and their Catechism include the 2nd Commandment
---alan8566_of_uk on 3/2/11


Eloy, thanks for the listing of the commandments sought in this posting which answers the question and settles the discussion, but could you and Alan act as if you are Christian brothers of whom the world identifies by our love for each other?
Thanks.
---larry on 3/2/11


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Concerning 1192:
Sacred images in our churches and homes are intended to awaken and nourish our faith in the mystery of Christ. Through the icon of Christ and his works of salvation it is he whom we adore. Through sacred images of the holy Mother of God, of the angels and of the saints, we venerate the person represented"
First. the images, they say, awaken and nourish our faith. Does the Bible teach that images awakens our faith or nourishes it? False. Second through the icon not through Christ. Third, they venerate the person represented. But what does the Bible have to say about the making of sacred images and venerating the persons they represent? Wake up and abandon the idol worship.
---Mark_V. on 3/2/11


The fact that the Roman Catholic Church has changed the second commandment is the result of all the idolatry practiced in the Roman Catholic Church. This fact is so glaring as to be indisputable.
---mima on 3/2/11


\\Another example: "All Baptists are Christians"\\

In my experience, very few are.

That's why I left them for Orthodoxy.
---Cluny on 3/2/11


alan, I am proven right, and you are proven wrong, in that I have provided the evidence by literally posting the catechismal 10 commanments, which clearly shows how the 2nd commandment was removed from the original 10 commandments, and then the 10th commandment was divided into 2 separate commandments in order to make up for the 2nd commandment which they have removed. So do not have any sorrow for you mistakenly thinking that I am wrong when in fact I am proven, but instead accept this historical fact and increase in the knowledge that I preach only truth and nothing less.
---Eloy on 3/2/11


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//Eloy is correct the Second Commandment was changed.//

How can people have faith in God for salvation if they dont even have faith in him to keep his word preserved for all generations?
---Jasheradan on 3/2/11


Eloy is correct the Second Commandment was changed. Anyone who denies that, only deceives himself.
Part 2: The Ten Commandments were given at Mount Sinai after God had delivered the people of Israel from bondage in Egypt. Israel had maintained their belief in the One true God during the four centuries they had been living among pagan people who believed in a multiplicity of gods. They had gods for everything. And when Israel's God sent the plagues, He exposed the Egyptian gods as utterly useless. They couldn't defend or deliver the people who worshiped them. It's against this background that we need to hear the Commandment prohibiting the making of sacred images.
---Mark_V. on 3/2/11


Eloy ... I am not apologising! I was saying I was sorry for you, for you were wrong.

The quote I gave was directly from the RCC Catechism

It is you who will not see the truth,
---alan8566_of_uk on 3/2/11


Eloy, DO YOU KNOW who discovered this "horrible thing about the catholics" was it th SDA church, the MORMONS or the JW's? all three of them are known for hating the RCC without reason.
---andy3996 on 3/2/11


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Alan: I have a copy of "The Converts Catechism of Catholic Doctrine" by: Peter Geiermann, C. SS. R., and it does indeed omit the Second Commandment, Call the Sabbath Commandment the Third (rather than the Fourth) Commandment, and even admits that the RCC, by her own authority, changed the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. Look for yourself!
---jerry6593 on 3/2/11


The worship of sacred images is prohibited by God. The excuse that because God put a serpents head on a rod, and because He order the cherubim on the Ark of the Covenant is no excuse for the RCC or the Eastern churches to worship idols. God did not do that so they could worship them. To say that God did it why can't they, is to blame God for their own failures. They did change the meaning of the Second Commandment and do build, venerate and worship Sacred images. Catechism 1192 is only an excuse to venerate images. Anyone that says they don't worship the idols are only lying to themselves. I've been to many shrines where People expect the saints to answer their prayers, not God. Stop making excuses for the idol worship, and worship Christ.
---Mark_V. on 3/2/11


alan, many people are sorry, like you have said, because they refuse the evident truth, and so they become sorry. I suggest that you accept the truth, and then your sorrow will depart. Again, you can find the catechismal 10 listed on the net clearly showing their omission of the Biblical 2nd commandment at-
www dot beginningcatholic dot com forward slash catholic hyphen ten hypen commandments dot html
---Eloy on 3/1/11


\\Cluny seems you have stated that Baptists prey to pieces of cloth does it follow that you are admitting that Catholics pray to statues?
---mima on 3/1/11\\

No.

I am stating that if you're going to accuse Catholics of praying to statues, then you have to admit that Baptists say prayers to pieces of cloth.

To condemn the former and approve the latter is the sin of HYPOCRISY and the ABOMINATION/TOEVAH of "diverse weights and measures", or as we would say today, a double standard. Proverbs 20:10.
---Cluny on 3/1/11


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mima:

Your comment to Cluny does not follow logically. "a implies b" is not the same as "b implies a".

Take Cluny's statement, and replace "Catholics worship statues" by "I have a dollar", and "Baptists worship cloth" by "I have money".

His statement becomes "If I have a dollar, I have money", which is true.

The converse, "If I have money, I have a dollar" is not - I may only have a quarter.

(Another example: "All Baptists are Christians" is very different from "All Christians are Baptists")
---StrongAxe on 3/1/11


Donna66,
I can't attest to Cluny's mention of baptists praying to pieces of cloth, but I know for a certainty that Oral Roberts had pieces of cloth that he supposedly blessed, and he was hawking them for money. That was about 50 years ago, I believe.

My mother wrote to get one. My dad has corroborated that, too.

People were treating them as though they were a guaranteed answer to prayer.
---James_L on 3/1/11


Eloy Sorry but you are wrong.

This is taken directly form the RCC Catechism

"I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth, you shall not bow down to them or serve them"
---alan8566_of_uk on 3/1/11


"If Catholics worship statues, then Baptists say prayers to pieces of cloth."
---Cluny on 3/1/11


Cluny seems you have stated that Baptists prey to pieces of cloth does it follow that you are admitting that Catholics pray to statues?
---mima on 3/1/11


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Catholic 10 Commandments from their catechism:
1. I am the LORD your God. You shall worship the Lord your God and Him only shall you serve.
2. MISSING- You will not make to you any graven image: you will not bow down yourself to them, nor worship them.
3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
4. Remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.
5. Honor your father and your mother.
6. You shall not kill.
7. You shall not commit adultery.
8. You shall not steal.
9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
10A. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife.
10B. You shall not covet your neighbor's goods.
---Eloy on 3/1/11


I would say Roman Catholics in general understand that they must not worship idols. But worship can include where our *attention* is going. If our attention is going to a statue, instead of to God . . .

It says, "And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body, and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15) I'd say God's ruling of His peace is all the time, not only a nice feeling while we are in front of a statue or in time of prayer. And He is ruling in our "hearts" > so, at every moment we need to be attentive to how God is ruling each of us, in our "hearts".
---Bill_willa6989 on 3/1/11


Donna66, the pieces of cloth were solemnly brought up for worship by the assembly in procession and placed before their eyes.

They were worshipped with ritual gestures executed in unison on command: Attenion! Salute! Pledge!

Oddly enough, both prayers began with the same words, "I pledge allegiance...."

If Catholics worship statues, then Baptists say prayers to pieces of cloth.
---Cluny on 3/1/11


//The Broze serpent was latter destroyed when people started worshipping it.// Yes, WHEN they started to worship it. What about the gold cherubim that God commanded to be made?

//I recently heard that people in Rome put JESUS sixth in the list of who they pray to. They put Mary before GOD. Why?// Please cite your sources. All the Catholics I know of worship God and no one else. Have you ever asked a Catholic about who they worship? Instead you quote gossip? We love the Blessed Mother. Catholics DO NOT worship her or it is a sin.
---Philomena on 2/28/11


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\\One Roman catholic council condemned icons statues as idols.\\

Please give the date of this council and where it met.
---Cluny on 2/28/11


Cluny, you've got me curious now. What "piece of cloth" did you say prayers to in the Baptist church? I've been in many Baptist churches, but can't imagine what you are referring to.
---Donna66 on 2/28/11


Samuel

Bowing does not necessary equate worship ("lateria"). In Japan, people show respect by bowing in greeting (the equivalent of the Western handshake). Likewise, a person can kneel before a king without worshiping him as a god. The Bible also support this (Gen. 19:1, 23:7, Exod 18:7, 42:6, 1 Kings 1:23, etc). A study of Hebrew/Greek will show a more diverse definition of "bowing" and "worship",BTW

"One Roman catholic council condemned icons statues as idols."

This never occurred, Samuel. As I pointed out before, The council of Hiera, 754AD, was a Eastern Council, headed by Iconoclast emperor and local Iconoclast bishops (never blinding to the entire Church).

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 2/28/11


The Broze serpent was latter destroyed when people started worshipping it.

When a person bows to a statue and prays to anyone but GOD they are breaking the second commandment. I recently heard that people in Rome put JESUS sixth in the list of who they pray to. They put Mary before GOD. Why?

Yes the RCC bible does have the words of the second commandment. But not all catachisms do. Many shorten the list of the Ten Commandments. So it depends on which catachism you have.

One Roman catholic council condemned icons statues as idols. But they latter changed it back.
---Samuel on 2/28/11


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Eloy ... you say "The 2nd commandment: "You will not make to you any graven image: you will not bow down yourself to them, nor worship them", is not in the catechism"

But this quote is taken directly from the RCC Catechism "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth, you shall not bow down to them or serve them"
---alan8566_of_uk on 2/28/11


As I said in another blog:
It's always interesting to me that people use the text about "graven images" from Exodus and never question why God asked Moses to make a bronze serpent in Numbers. Why would God go against His own command and ask Moses to create a "graven image"? Answer: because it's not a pagan idol! Have you ever knelt before your Bible? Were you worshiping it? Images (2 or 3 dimensional) of those we love are not "graven images." They lead us to deeper love. I love having images around. They lead me to pray and thank God! I do not worship them - only God!
---Philomena on 2/28/11


\\From all your responses to me, you have PROVEN this fact.
---Leslie on 2/28/11
\\

Why? Because we didn't roll over and admit you were right when you fired your first shot?

As I said, Leslie, when I was a Baptist, before I got saved, we said prayers to pieces of cloth.
---Cluny on 2/28/11


We have many pictures of people including the Pope bowing down before a statue(a graven image) of the Virgin Mary. Ever watch cowboy movie and seen people come in a Catholic Church go to a pew and there bow down to an image of Mary at the front of the church before going into their pews. So the Roman Church regardless of where the second commandment is in their Bible are in violation of the second command.
---mima on 2/28/11


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If you Catholics claim that the 2nd Commandment is mentioned in the Catholic Bible and Catechism, may I say that ALL of you have broken it, and are in IDOLATRY. From all your responses to me, you have PROVEN this fact.
---Leslie on 2/28/11


The 2nd commandment: "You will not make to you any graven image: you will not bow down yourself to them, nor worship them", is not in the catechism.
Also the Douay-Rheims Bible used by the catholics states in Exodus 20:3, "Thou shalt not have strange gods before me." But the King James Bible used by the Christians states in Exodus 20:3, "Thou shalt have no other gods before me."
---Eloy on 2/28/11


Google the words: catholic catechism commandments. The second site is the official Vatican archives. It compares three versions of the Ten Commandments: Exodus 20:2-17, Deutronomy 5:6-21, and A Traditional Catechetical Formula.

The first shows the entire section about graven images.
The second replaces it with an ellipsis ... since it is the same.
The third, curiously, omits any mention of images.

Several pages later, it speaks about graven images. Then, it points out:
Nevertheless, already in the Old Testament, God ordained or permitted the making of images that pointed symbolically toward salvation by the incarnate Word: so it was with the bronze serpent, the ark of the covenant, and the cherubim.
---StrongAxe on 2/28/11


\\"While I do not know much about what the Catholic Bible or Catechism teach, I can say beyond a shadow of a doubt that the 2nd Commandment is NOT included in either." (Leslie)\\

In my hometown, there was a call-in program on the local radio station, and a certain caller who always began, "Well, I don't know, Bea. I just don't know. I just don't know, Bea, but I'll tell you."

And then in her call she would prove that sure enough, she DIDN'T know.

That's a trouble with the world. People who don't know are going to tell you.
---Cluny on 2/28/11


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Many people misrepresent the beliefs of the RCC. I am not RCC, but I have read a substantial portion of their Catechism, and grew up in a community which was/is 90% RCC.

While some parishioners seem to "worship" icons, saints, idols, pictures, and even events like Fatima, that is not what the church teaches.

The 2nd commandment, by the way, was part of a LONG list of restrictions which were aimed at setting the Israelites apart from the pagan worshipers in the land of Canaan. How many times can we find "When you enter the land" in the instructions?

How many pagans use a cross in their worship? or statues of Jesus?
---James_L on 2/27/11


"While I do not know much about what the Catholic Bible or Catechism teach, I can say beyond a shadow of a doubt that the 2nd Commandment is NOT included in either." (Leslie)

Am I the only who thinks Leslie makes no sense here? She has not read either, and yet she knows EXACTLY what is in it, and what is not?

???????????????

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 2/27/11


Leslie ... With your categorical statement "While I do not know much about what the Catholic Bible or Catechism teach, I can say beyond a shadow of a doubt that the 2nd Commandment is NOT included in either" I thought I must have been mistaken when I said I had seen an RCC Bible with the 2nd (of the 10) Commandment included.

So I looked again, and found that in Exodus 20, the wording in the English translation of the Vulgate, the wording is virtually the same as in the KJV, with the complete 2nd Commandment.
---alan8566_of_uk on 2/27/11


I did a little more research on the cathechism, and 2nd of 10 Commandements is in cluded in what is taught, althouh it is included as part of the First, rahter than separately.

It also specifically forbids the worship of any of the statues etc.

And my Catholic friends say they do not worship Mary, the saints, & angels

Still ... more unbiased opinions sought!!
---alan8566_of_uk on 2/27/11


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I would recommend that one read the article about the Ten Commandments on Wikipedia.

There you will learn, among other things, that the numbering of the commandments differs among Protestant, Roman Catholic and Lutherans, Orthodox, and even Jewish usage.
---Cluny on 2/27/11


yes, the Catholic education includes the 1st great commandment, and teach the 2nd which is like the first. love others as you love yourself.

if you want prayer, call a protestant. if you want clothes and food, call a Catholic.
---aka on 2/27/11


\\While I do not know much about what the Catholic Bible or Catechism teach, I can say beyond a shadow of a doubt that the 2nd Commandment is NOT included in either.\\

Since you admit you don't know what the Catholic Church teaches, where did you get the idea that you could say ANYTHING "beyond a shadow of a doubt" about it?
---Cluny on 2/27/11


I have opened this new blog because another closed in the middle of the discussion

I have actually seen a Roman Catholic Bible, which contains the Commandments (including the second) in full.

Yet some here say the RC Bible has removed the 2nd

And I understand that their Catechism does include the 2nd, althoough again some here deny that.
---alan8566_of_uk on 2/27/11


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The answer to both is yes.

However, as they are generally memorized by whoever, they are abbreviated.

Even the 1928 Book of Common Prayer abbreviates them for liturgical and catechetical purposes.
---Cluny on 2/27/11


I forgot to mention that the Bible actually gives TWO lists of the 10 commandmenets in the OT.

The second listing, in Deuteronomy, is abbreviated from the Exodus list.

The Roman Catholic catechectical listing, based on Deuteronomy, is where people get the idea that they omit the second commandment. It is actually, as I have said, subsumed under the first.
---Cluny on 2/27/11


When you say Second Commandment, I think of our Second Love Commandment to love our neighbor as ourselves.

But maybe you mean the second of the Ten Commandments. This says, "You shall not make for yourself a carved image----any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth, you shall not bow down to them nor serve them." There is more. This is in Exodus 20:4-6.

So, wouldn't a photograph be a modern-day way of making an image??? But ones take no issue with their making images of their families, by means of a photograph.
---Bill_willa6989 on 2/27/11




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