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Pray To Others Than God

Isaiah 42:8 says "I [am] the LORD: that [is] my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images" --does this verse speak to the practice of praying to Mary? What is your opinion?

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 ---mima on 3/2/11
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Good point Mima!
Mt6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Christ taught us to pray to our Father, not unto Mary. While we are on the subject, when he addressed her he didn't call her his mother. He called her woman. I do not believe this was out of disrespect, but it was to make a point. Mary was a sinner in need of a saviour just like the rest of us.
---trey on 3/18/11


Igantius, I have answered you now four different times and none were posted. I really went back to check and could not find anything wrong, or condemning in them but yet were not posted for some reason concerning traditions. I believe for a reason I don't understand but I never blame the mod's for the work they do. They do a fine job. Sorry you did not get them.
---Mark_V. on 3/18/11


Ruben we take 2 Tim and still do not have to throw away the New Testament. For the New Testament is also scripture that was written by the Apostles of JESUS.
---Samuel on 3/18/11


And God DID say He left us a guide book: 2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

---Donna66 on 3/11/11

Donna,

If you take that vesre as the guide book, then throw away the NT. Prior that verse it reads "And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures,"
---Ruben on 3/16/11


Luke 20:38: "... and he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for
to him all are alive." Therefore, everyone in heaven is alive. Therefore, they can pray for us. Therefore, we can ask their intercession in prayer just as we ask our brothers and sisters in Christ to pray for us. What a great gift God has given us with the intercession of the saints!
---Philomena

Great text but you need to reread it. The discussion was about being resurrected from the dead. Not that the dead are alive in heaven. Read the verse and surrounding passages again. As Christians we look forward to the resurrection from the dead when JESUS comes. So Mary is not in heaven to pray for anyone.
---Samuel on 3/14/11




Here in these verses Luke 11:27-28 is a great great lesson as to mary's holiness and her standing among believers.
Luke 11:27-28,
" 27-And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.

28-But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it"

Notice that Jesus doesn't called Mary blessed but rather those that hear the word of God and keep it!!!! If you are a Christian you fall in this category
---mima on 3/14/11


Angel x, we ask for Mary's intercession in a similar way that we might ask you to pray for a particular intention.

Luke 20:38: "... and he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for
to him all are alive." Therefore, everyone in heaven is alive. Therefore, they can pray for us. Therefore, we can ask their intercession in prayer just as we ask our brothers and sisters in Christ to pray for us. What a great gift God has given us with the intercession of the saints!
---Philomena on 3/14/11


We do Not pray to Mary!.
We should pray to the Father in the Name of Jesus, Amen!
Blessings
Angel x
---Angel_x on 3/13/11


Rob,

On one hand you demand Biblical support for every teaching/practice, but can never give any actual Scripture that CLEARLY teaches that every teaching/practice MUST be found in the written Scriptures or that every part of Holy Tradition can be found in the written accounts (even though Christ and His Apostles went against such notion). This is nonsensical.

How can I possibly take you seriously if you can not even realize that the very doctrine that you and others push on this site is a extra biblical tradition?

Sola Scriptura is YOUR rule, YOUR extra-biblical tradition, and YOUR philosophy. Why then, do you demand me to follow YOUR regulation, if Scripture itself does not teach such regulation?

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 3/12/11


Mark V/Samuel.

Both of you follow your own traditions and interpretations.

I have in past given Scriptures where Christ and the Holy Apostles themselves appeal to extra-biblical traditions, and I explained why Christ attacked the Pharisees (and it has nothing to do with "Sola Scriptura"). But you ignore the obvious for whatever reason. You never replied to my posts nor answered what I wrote because you can't. When both you are you are questioned, you hide and just rant about how wrong the RCC or Orthodoxy is, but can never discussed WHERE Sola Scriptura is taught in the Bible. You give reasons why is must be true, but can never prove it using Scriptures. And I am the deceived? Please! Give me a break!

In IC.XC.,
---IGnatius on 3/12/11




Ruben, I love you as a brother but if you cannot see the decline of Christ and rise of saints, especially Mary, then you are as blind to idol worship as I was when I was a Catholic. Those of us who left really loved our Church. We believed in it, trusted it, we laughed at those who called themselves born again. Our love should have been placed in Christ, completely in Him, and it wasn't. In the RCC Church it has always been what they say is true, not what Scripture says is Truth. They teach that only they have a door way to heaven and no one else does. Its all about merits and works. Penance for sin. Go to purgatory, and work your way out. Sacrifice yourself for a saint answering a prayer. Confess to a priest instead of to Christ.
---Mark_V. on 3/12/11


Ruben--//God never said he is leaving us a guidebook to go by, in matter of fact those who go "Only" by this guidebook can't come to a conclusion on many doctrines.//
Thankfully, they don't need to consult a whole library to confuse things even more... no confusion for you, since your CHURCH has already told you how to interpret these other sources.

And God DID say He left us a guide book: 2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
He did NOT say scripture will settle forever, all the questions in the minds His children.
---Donna66 on 3/11/11


Donna66 *I cannot believe God would not leave us a specific guidebook on which to rely.

God never said he is leaving us a guidebook to go by, in matter of fact those who go "Only" by this guidebook can't come to a conclusion on many doctrines.

Donna66 *If I want to make my HP printer work correctly, I don't scour the literature, google "printers", nor read what all the geeks have to say. I look at the users manual and study it carefully.

And if there is something in the user manual you don't understand, there is a phone number for you to call to correctly interpret the manual for you!
---Ruben on 3/11/11


Ruben-- I'm GLAD not everything that Jesus said or did is written down. The Bible provides enough to study and aspire to...that, alone can easily be a lifetime undertaking! The Bible has proved itself trustworthy over the generations.

Many writings and documents are interesting and may contain some truth. By my faith is too important to me to take a little here and a little there as a basis for it. I cannot believe God would not leave us a specific guidebook on which to rely.

If I want to make my HP printer work correctly, I don't scour the literature, google "printers", nor read what all the geeks have to say. I look at the users manual and study it carefully.
---Donna66 on 3/11/11


Mark_V.* Ruben, What was written is what God wanted to convey to us.

Scripture says because a books wouldn't be enough to do that!(JHN 21:25)

Mark* What you are suggesting by this answer is that the RCC has inside to those things not written down.

Yea, Jesus said he will bulit His Church on the Rock of Peter!

Mark_V. *Sinful man at that.

So were the Apostles.

Mark* Just take a look at history of the RCC leaders and what they have done, and you suggest they have an inside to what was not written.

Look at what the Apostles did, just one at the cross, one betray him and one denied him.

Mark_V.* The Truth is found in God's Word.

And not all of his words were written down.
---Ruben on 3/11/11


To the question, the post I have put down all lead to one big mistake the RCC did, to allow the graven images, and the worship and the worship of idols made of wood, stone and clay, that cannot move, speak, walk or answer any prayers. With that came the meritorious works of man for salvation, like Baptism, and the eating of Christ's flesh.
Because of the idols, Catechisms adopted to allow the idols, the rise of Mary and the saints, and the decline of Jesus Christ. Saints appointed by the Church for their good works, salvation by the merits of man, purgatory proclaims that the works of Christ on the Cross are not sufficient to save anyone, it needs man's works to be sufficient. Jesus can do nothing without man.
---Mark_V. on 3/11/11


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Ruben, you say many other things were not written down that Jesus said and did. I'm sure of that since the writers of Scripture did not go minute to minute. What was written is what God wanted to convey to us.
What you are suggesting by this answer is that the RCC has inside to those things not written down. Sinful man at that. Just take a look at history of the RCC leaders and what they have done, and you suggest they have an inside to what was not written. The Truth is found in God's Word.
---Mark_V. on 3/11/11


Ignatius, When it comes to sharing BIBLICAL TRUTH, along with hoping people will come to have a TRUE AND SAVING KNOWLEDGE OF CHRIST, I take these things very seriously.

On 3/8/11, you wrote "but I do not have play by your rules".

This implies the things myself and with others take seriously, is nothing but playing a game for you.
---Rob on 3/10/11


Ruben -- Naturally not EVERYTHING that Jesus said was written down. Only the most memorable sayings...recalled because of their life-changing
power.
---Donna66 on 3/9/11

Scripture tell us the reason why it was not written down."I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written."
---Ruben on 3/9/11


Ruben -- Naturally not EVERYTHING that Jesus said was written down. Only the most memorable sayings...recalled because of their life-changing
power.
---Donna66 on 3/9/11


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. The church is faithful as a teaching church when it proclaims what the Scriptures say. Jesus said, "The Scriptures cannot be broken" John 10:35.
---Mark_V. on 3/9/11

Scripture also tell us not everything that Jesus taught was written down. "Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written."( Jhn 21:25)
---Ruben on 3/9/11


Both the Roman Catholic and the Orthodox churches claim to be the group who gave us the Bible. But the process from the history sources I have read was more to ensure that the books written by the Apostles were accepted and those of latter date not written by the Apostles to be excluded.

To me what we have is a scholarly search for the true writings. Not we are deciiding and giving you the Bible.

But still to place latter traditions above the scripture is wrong.
---Samuel on 3/9/11


Sola Scriptora or the supramacy of scripture above tradition is a topic that JESUS addressed with the Jews. The established church of His day gave tradition and the Jew still do an equal place with scripture.

JESUS on the other hand appealed to Scripture as the writers of the New Testament also do. Scholars say that about three fourths of the New Testament is taken from the Old Testament. Either by direct quotes or paraphrasing.
---Samuel on 3/9/11


Ignatius-- When the church decided which writings were to be included in the canon, these scriptures were already written
(by Jews or Christians, not "the church".
---Donna66 on 3/8/11


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Ignatius, you are full of lies which proves who is the the one you serve or are deceived by.

This is also why you side step the question I asked.

You don't want others to know the TRUTH because you reject the TRUTH and have been BRAINWASHED BY YOUR RELIGION!!!

I can speak about this because I have been there in the past, Matthew 7:1-6!!!
---Rob on 3/8/11


Ignatius, your refusal to interpret Scripture by other Scripture is the reason you have all those false doctrines and believes. You interpret Scripture with what the denomination says in order to make it true. For no one can become a Catholic by following only what the Bible teaches. One needs the extra-biblical teaching of the Roman Catholic Church to be a Roman Catholic. But when Tradition is introduced on an equal footing with the Word of God, the inevitable collision occurs. Only God's Word reveals God's will for His people. The church is faithful as a teaching church when it proclaims what the Scriptures say. Jesus said, "The Scriptures cannot be broken" John 10:35.
---Mark_V. on 3/9/11


"[we] do not find them in the New Testament" (Rob)

Sola Scriptura is your article of Faith, not Scriptures. Sorry Rob, but I do not need to play by your rules.

"How come they are in direct contradiction ..."

They are not. However, they are in direct contradiction to your personal dogmas and interpretation of Scriptures.

"is the past you wrote [....]"

Those are your words, not mine. Stop lieing. That the canonization of the Bible was a long and debatable process, involving Church local councils, can be verified in non-Orthodox church historical books. Go argue with those Church Historians/Scholars, not I or the Orthodox Church.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 3/8/11


Donna66,

The Jews who translated the Hebrew Scriptures into Greek (the LXX) included them in the contents of the OT. They persevered them! Besides, the African Jews accepted (and still do) those extra books. This is the reason why the first generation of Christians quoted from them as Scriptures (because they had it in their collection of the OT).

"The church did not create [scriptures]...."

And who do you think wrote the NT, if not those who were part of the Church? Are you saying that pagans wrote the NT?

"the church recognized the books that were inspired from their inception....."

On the other hand, The Ancient Church also accepted those books which you now deny.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 3/8/11


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Ignatius, is the past you wrote "we recived the books of New Testament from an Orthodox Council of Men"

You also talk about "liturgical practices" and "catechumen."

If these things are important along with being truth, how come you do not find them in the New Testament?

How come they are in direct contradiction of what is written in the New Testament?
---Rob on 3/7/11


Ignacius--In the second century after the birth of Jesus, a core of what we call the New Testament began to take shape. Many works that are now no longer regarded as scripture were included from time to time and place to place. But Apocryphal books were NOT preserved as part of the HEBREW Bible, and had known historical errors. By the 4th century the 27 books of the NT came together. Bitter Disputes about various individual books continued, however, through the Reformation.

The church did not create the canon or books included in what we call Scripture. Instead, the church recognized the books that were inspired from their inception. Their timelessness and depth of meaning qualifies them as canon to this day.
---Donna66 on 3/7/11


Donna66

You accept what the Ancient Church proclaimed concerning the NT, but then you refuse to accept what the Ancient Church said concerning these "extra books". On one hand, you are willing to say the Holy Spirit guided the Ancient Church in her canonization of the New Testament, but then say she was not following the Holy Spirit when it comes to her belief concerning these "extra" Old Testament books accepted by non-Protestants.

So yea, you are being hypocritical. If the Holy Spirit guided the Ancient Church concerning the New Testament (and we all believe He did), then He also guided the Ancient Church concerning these "extra" books.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 3/7/11


1 TIMOTHY 2:5 For there is one GOD and one mediator between GOD and men, the man Christ Jesus.
---RICHARDC on 3/6/11


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This verse is saying'I am God and God alone'. No man or woman should be given God's praises. St.Peter didnt create the earth and Mary didnt breathe into you the breath of life. A crucifix has no life or power. Do not give away God's praises. We fall into the trap of tradition of relegion and forget about God. Christ chose to be poor and preach to the poor because the so called leaders of the church were so full of themselves that they felt the poor were benaeth them. The put their trust and faith in idols and wealth. Give God the praise! God bless you.
---dave on 3/6/11


Ignatius.---No matter how many times I read the passages in Revelation, I cannot see any "saints" being able, or even slightly interested, in praying FOR anybody on earth.

//Martyred saints in heaven cry out in a loud voice to God to avenge their blood 'on those who dwell upon the earth//
If you interpret this to mean the saints pray for us, you must have been influenced by the beliefs of your church, not the Bible.
---Donna66 on 3/5/11


Ignatius--How is it "hypocritical" to accept what some of the "Ancients" say but ignore others? That's what the ancient church did when they chose 27 books to comprise the "New Testament"...and you add parenthetically (guided by the Holy Spirit), as if that was a minor detail!

Only if they were hypocrites, am I the same..
I cannot believe that God requires every man to sift through all the literature of the church to find the truth he needs. If it were so, little necessary work in this world would get done. Children and uneducated persons could have no hope.

The Holy Bible, as it stands, is fully sufficient, IMHO, for an overcoming life in the present and preparation for life hereafter in Heaven.
---Donna66 on 3/5/11


Donna660

You do when it comes to the contents of the New Testament. Do you not realize that the acceptance of only 27 books was due to the Ancient Church acceptance of certain Fathers tradition (guided by the Holy Spirit), which became what the "majority" accepted after the 4th century? Read any church historical book. The canonization of the New Testament was a long and debatable process. Do you want to me to recommend books written by Orthodox, Catholic, or Protestant scholars/historians on the matter? Or do you think the Bible fell from the sky?

So you accept what the Ancients say when it suits you, but ignore the Ancients when it doesn't agree with your personal dogmas.

How hypocritical....

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 3/5/11


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Donna66-

So you believe that the Holy Bible just fell from the sky? Even the Jews in Christ' time were divided on which books should be "Scripture". How do you know which books belong in the OT and NT (the Scriptures themselves does not give a complete list of canonical & non canonical books),if not for your acceptance of extra biblical sources (traditions)?

How do you know the Gospels were written by the Authors that are commonly assigned to them, if that is a extra biblical tradition (i.e., the consensus teaching of the Ancient Fathers)? Why even accept just four Gospels (that was what the "majority" believed)?

You hold more to oral Church traditions than you think.

In IC.XC.,
---IGnatius on 3/5/11


Igantius, first, we must define what saints mean in Scripture. Saints are those who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ by faith. Not those the RCC makes saints. Second, none of the passages you gave say that believers in heaven (saints) are praying for anyone on earth. All of the passages you gave speak of saints on earth praying to God. You said,
"we are that the prayer of the Saints (both in Heaven and on Earth) are presented to God by the Angels (represented by "four living creature")" You added "saints praying in heaven.
Then you said that Rev. 8:3 says that saints in heaven are praying for us who are alive, and that is not there either. The visions he saw were symbolic of Old Testament practices.
---Mark_V. on 3/5/11


Donna66,

Read those Scriptures slowing

-In Revelation 5:8, we are that the prayer of the Saints (both in Heaven and on Earth) are presented to God by the Angels (represented by "four living creature") and Saints (represented by the "twenty-four Elders"). This is the traditional interpretation.

- In Revelation 6:9-11, the martyred saints in heaven cry out in a loud voice to God to avenge their blood "on those who dwell upon the earth." These are "imprecatory prayers," which are pleas for Gods judgment (c.f. Psalm 35:1, 59:1-17, 139:19, Jer. 11:20, 15:15, 18:19, Zech.1:12-13).

So we see that those who go to Heaven indeed are able to pray for us.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 3/4/11


#2

In Rev 8:3-4, we are told that the Angels indeed present our prayers to God. Do you deny this Donna66? If they present our prayers to God, the only logical conclusion is that they are able (through the power of God) to hear our prayers, otherwise they would not be able to offer ANY prayers.

Since the belief that the Angels and Saints in heaven do indeed pray for us, and the belief that we can in fact ask them to pray for us, is in the Old Testament Scriptures, Ancient non-scriptura Jewish texts, and Ancient Christian literature, so I believe it. I follow God's word.

Your rejection of it is your problem. In any case, you can't tell us we are wrong using Scriptures. Scriptures does not speak against it.

In IC.XC.,
---IGnatius on 3/4/11


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Ignatius-- I don't choose what to believe on the basis of "majority" opinion. If these other books you mention agree with the Bible, I will believe what they say. If they do not, I won't. I don't believe the Bible contains only most
of the truth, but ALL (or at least, all the truths that matter). So you won't convince me by quoting other sources.
---Donna66 on 3/4/11


Ignatious-- I read the scriptures before I answered the first time.
Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. .
8:3-4 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer, and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer [it] with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

Do Beasts, elders and angels equal dead believers? Nothing tells how the prayers were "collected".
Nothing about them "praying for us".

You're interpretation is too much of a stretch for me.
---Donna66 on 3/3/11


\\Tobit, Baruch, Maccabees... Those are extra-biblical and not reliable as far as I'm concerned.\\

But they ARE Biblical.

They were not rejected until AFTER the Reformation, and then by only a small minority of Christians.

You're out of step with the vast majority of Christians through out time in all the earth as far as I'm concerned.
---Cluny on 3/3/11


Donna66, the only reason Im responding to this question is because it concerns Idol worship otherwise I think we already have too many blogs concerning the RCC. I completely agree with your answers. One of the justifications of worshiping idols of those they call saints comes from Rev. 5:8. Specifically, these prayers represent all that the redeemed have ever prayed concerning ultimate and final redemption. And the saint prayers here are all believers prayers not the saints that the RCC crowns as saints. And the books mentioned by Ignatius are not binding, since they contradict the rest of Scripture, the reason they did not pass the test. The Bible no where teaches that dead people intercede for anyone who is physically alive.
---Mark_V. on 3/4/11


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Donna66,

1) Christ said that the Guardian Angels of children always behold the face of the Father. This was after he warn those who wish to despise them. Obviously, their Guardian Angels will intercede for them, and defend them.

2) Revelation 5:8,6:9-11,8:3-7 shows that those in Heaven pray for us, and even the Angels present our prayers to God. Have you read them?

3) Those books are consider Scriptures for most Christians and even African Jews. When the Ancient Church canonized Scriptures, they included them. Only a small minority rejects them today. Your rejection to them is your problem. I follow God's word.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 3/3/11


\\Cluny-- Do we take the Eucharist or keep the sabbath when we are dead? If we "pray" after death do we also "fast and pray"?\\

Good point, Donna.

But fasting and receiving the Eucharist are something done with the body.

Prayer is an action of the soul.
---Cluny on 3/3/11


I pray to the Father, the Son & Holy Spirit. I'm not here to condemn others on there beliefs, however we have to come into that Revelation that God is Head, and only Him. WATCH, stand fast in the faith, be brave, be strong. Let all that you do be done with love. 1 Corinthians 16:13-14
---Kimbe7395 on 3/3/11


Yes the verse clearly speaks about graven images. Many false religions have their idols and images which they foolishly embrace. But we Christians know that idoltry is sin, we have only one God and one Papa, one Father we have, and we will not dis him buy calling some other strange clay our Father.
---Eloy on 3/3/11


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Ignatius--That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.? What has this to do with "saints and angels" praying for us.? The verses in Rev. show that the righteous dead do live in Heaven.. that they are aware that those on earth are not yet in Heaven,(not they they know what's going on in earth presently)... but pray for us? Where do you find it? Yes, the prayers of the saints in a bottle. Are those not the prayers that we pray?
Tobit, Baruch, Maccabees... Those are extra-biblical and not reliable as far as I'm concerned.
I'm not being "argumentative". (Heaven knows, at my age, I have more friends there than here). Just looking for solid biblical basis for what you say.
---Donna66 on 3/3/11


Donna66

Scriptures themselves tell us that those in Heaven (the Saints and Angels) are aware of goes on on earth and pray for us (Matthew 18:10, Revelation 5:8,6:9-11,8:3-7, Tobit 12:12,15, Baruch 3:7, 2 Maccabees 15:12-16)

So what are you arguing against, exactly?

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 3/2/11


This means to anyone including people praying to Mary.
---candice on 3/2/11


Cluny-- Do we take the Eucharist or keep the sabbath when we are dead? If we "pray" after death do we also "fast and pray"?

We have no instructions NOW for after death.

I expect we will need a whole new set of rules then! But maybe not many if what John says applies to that time
1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
---Donna66 on 3/2/11


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As I am not Catholic, Anglican or any form of Orthodox, and would never desire to be. I do not pray to Mary, Saints, or even Jesus for only YHWH is God and the only one deserving of prayers.
---Blogger9211 on 3/2/11


"Praying" means "asking/entreating" and does not equate worship ("lateria").

So are you breaking any commandment when you ask ("pray") another Brother and Sister in Christ (on Earth) to intercede to God (act as mediators) for you (for any specific reason, etc)? Of course not. Such a teaching can be found in the pages of the New Testament.

On the same token, one is not breaking any commandment when one ask the Saints or Angels in heaven to pray for them. In fact, such practice was part of Ancient Judaism and Ancient Christianity.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 3/2/11


No, it doesn't.

Are you praying to other god when you ask your friends to pray for you?

We don't know HOW in God's providence and omnipotence our prayers for others help them. It's a mystery. We just know according to the Bible that they do, and we are commanded to do this.

Are we released from this commandment just because our physical bodies are dead?
---Cluny on 3/2/11


Matthew 7:1-4

"Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again."

"And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye, and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?"
---christan on 3/2/11


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