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Two Meaning For Sinner

Are there two meanings to "Sinner"? First, meaning someone who does wrong things, and even saints do that. Second, meaning someone whose wrongs will count against him, and God does not hold wrongs against a saved person.

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But God's definitions of sin are specific and give better understanding.
---Haz27 on 3/15/11

Haz27, i'm really surprised you consider my scripture another subject. It is exactly what is being talked about here.

Our POSITION in Christ is one thing...our POSESSION OF CHRIST and His life in us is quite another.

You are talking position, and fail to understand or grasp posession...leading to GROWTH that in fact is a PROCESS.

You have no Idea what sin is until you are iN CHRIST..and it's not specific...but PERSONAL for each person. This is why salvation is a personal ralationship, and not a RELIGIOUS set of do's and dont's.
---kathr4453 on 3/15/11

No one is saying Paul is unsaved in Rom 7. Paul is speaking about the battle flesh v"s Spirit.

He explains we have deliverance through Jesus Christ. As we see in v25 and also Rom8:6, either we are spiritually minded or carnally minded.

Carnally minded is self-rightouesness and unbelief.

Spiritually minded is believing God, having righteousness in Christ.

---Haz27 on 3/15/11

I'm not exactly sure what your implying with 1Pet4 so it might be best to start another blog topic on it as this blog is about finished.

I agree that it is referring to conforming to Jesus's death which I believe is when our old man got crucified. But you seem to be suggesting it's a process over time.

The definition of sin you offered being "SIN is not doing God's will, but your own" is very general and can mean anything. But God's definitions of sin are specific and give better understanding.
---Haz27 on 3/15/11

1 Peter 4: Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin,

2That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

Here are the FACTS. You cannot be conformed to His image unless you are being conformed to His Death.

The power of teh cross brings both death and life...

Have you EXPERIENCED this truth? NO?? Then you are not set free. SIN is not doing God's will, but your own.
---kathr4453 on 3/15/11

If Paul is not saved in chapter 7 why would he thank God through Jesus Christ?
For he says,
" O wretched man that I am, who will deliver me from this body of death?" He knows his body is going to die. Paul long to be rescued from his sinful flesh (8:23). And so finishes with:
"So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin"
He would not even be thinking to serve the law of God if he was not saved. So he is a believer struggling in life with his flesh. If a person is honest, and puts away his pride, which by the way is sin, the spirit will reveal this Truth to him.
---Mark_V. on 3/15/11

All people have ONE NATURE, unless the person is mentally ill like with bi-polar disease, the one nature each person has is either born-again and good, or else not born-again and bad.
---Eloy on 3/14/11

Haz27, I believe that verse is someone who is now saved, realizing this conflict within our two natures. However the personal knowledge, personal experiencing of this is different for everyone.

And it is a process we go through. Some believe this is an abby-normal experience. I believe it is the evidence one has received Christ, has totally surrendered, and then God begins His work teaching us the difference between flesh and spirit. Many self righteous christians believe in instant deliverance, never struggling, believing themselves instantly sinless.

That person has never walked through the valley of the shaddow of death with Christ,finding victory through it.

Head knowledge vs personal knowledge .
---kathr4453 on 3/14/11

You reference to Paul's claim of sin in him refers to the battle between flesh and spirit before deliverance.

Rom7:24 Paul ask who shall DELIVER me from the body of this death. Verse 25 "I thank God through Jesus Christ.

Also Rom7:5,6 "When we WERE in the flesh....But NOW are we delivered.

Also Rom6:6-8 "our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed.....For he that is dead is FREED from sin". Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe we shall also live with him"

Scripture tells us we are FREED from sin and as John8:36 says "If the Son makes you free you shall be free indeed"
---Haz27 on 3/14/11

Paul admitted zero sin after his conversion, because he was a saint, he was transformed from a Christian hater and persecuter into becoming a Christian lover and edifier and member of Christ's body. You will know them by their fruits, either a person is Christianed and bears good fruit, or else they are nonChristian and bears rotten fruit. If the lie that Paul continued to sin after being a saint were true, then I would not give heed to the Holy Bible for he wrote a large part of the Holy Scriptures and they would not be holy if he were not holy. But the truth is, he had the Holy Spirit and proved this with signs following.
---Eloy on 3/14/11

Romans 7:5-8:2: "For when we WERE in the flesh, the passions of sins, which were aroused by the law, did work in our members. But NOW WE ARE DELIVERED from the law, having died to what WE WERE HELD BY. PRETEND then I do that which I should not, I confess that the law right. Then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwells in me: truly then, I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwells no good thing. NOW PRETEND I do what I should not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwells in me. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus HAS MADE ME FREE from the law of sin and death."
---Eloy on 3/14/11

duane-- Amen. This is why the Gospel is good news.

For those who believe they are still judged by the works of their flesh, the gospel can only be bad news because they feel compelled to work for something that can never be earned.

But though we are without condemnation as those Christ redeemed, men still judge us by the imperfections they see.
What they see in us may seem at conflict with what we profess. God sees us as sinless. But we must deal with the fact that other people do not. And we still have much to learn about living the Christian life.
---Donna66 on 3/14/11

What a depressing be judged by what what our flesh does? Why the need to be born again or why the need for the Cross.
There is no judgement left for those in Christ.
There is no salvation/life if we are judged by what the flesh does....we are judged as righteous through HIM.
The good news....
---duane on 3/14/11

Even Paul admitted sin within him. In Romans 7 Paul says-and making I think a clear distinction: "Sin, it is in me" But he said, "it is not I, it is sin that is in me". So, he understands that he is a new creation. There is a new ego, there is a new "I" and its longings are holy and its affections are are spiritual and its love is towards God and its longings are directed in the path of righteousness. His desires are bent towards the law of God, which he loves. But he sees something inside of him warring. He was incarcerated in this unredeemed humanness. That's why he said in v.8, "we are waiting for the redemption of the body"
---Mark_V. on 3/14/11

It's good that you do not call yourself a sinner.

And I agree that saying "I do not sin" can seem off-putting if it's not explained. BUT, like many teachings from the Bible they need to be explained.

In 1John3:6-9 God used the specific words "do not sin" and "cannot sin" in speaking about those born of God. If we explain to others that it is speaking of the sin of unbelief in Jesus, then nobody would be put-off thinking we claim to be living perfectly in behaviour.

Using God's specific definitions of sin clarify scripture far better than man's ambiguous definition of sin.
---Haz27 on 3/14/11

James: "Our inner man is not capable of sin, being regenerated. But our outer man falls into all sorts of mischief."

The inner man is known (and judged) by the deeds of the outer man. The profession of inner thoughts means nothing - it's the doing of the Word that counts.

The Bible does not define the drinking of beer (in any quantity) as sin, but murdering yourself, and abusing others is sin. Alas, these are the legacy of the practicing alcholic.
---jerry6593 on 3/14/11

My answer was for Duane and the reason we still sin, and why we continue to need Christ in our lives. The Bible no where tells us we have two natures. Find the passages and put them down.
What it does say is that we are a new creation. It does not say our old nature died already when we committed our lives to Christ. It will die because of sin one day. Sin in the flesh has not been redeemed. Regeneration refers to Transformation. We are been transformed into the image of God. The work is not complete until we are glorified with a new body prepared for eternity. All come short of the glory of God. No one is perfect but Christ. It could be the reason Eloy thinks he is the light Jesus saw while on the Cross.
---Mark_V. on 3/14/11

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You said "our old sin old man nature...that we certainly can revive"

The old nature is being in the flesh with its self-righteous works and unbelief.

The new nature is being in the Spirit having righteousness in Christ.

So reviving the old nature is backsliding, e.g Galatians.

I recall you said that sin was unbelief in 1John. But I am curious why you say that Christians still sin. What definition do you apply in saying this?

---Haz27 on 3/13/11

It's good to see your back here.

I think your previous post may have been for kathr and not Duanne as I can't see where Duanne said what you said he said.

I recall you said that the inner man does not sin, which is similar to my claim.
Our difference lies in that you look at the flesh with it's wrong-doings whereas I see it as the old nature of self-rightouesness and unbelief.
---Haz27 on 3/13/11

I understand what Haz27 and duane say. And I agree. I do not call myself a sinner.

My only point is, that to a lot of people, regardless of their doctrine, "I do not sin" sounds like "I am perfect". Almost nobody is more off-putting, than a "perfect" person.
---Donna66 on 3/13/11

I agree with your position. No, I don't still see myself under the old nature.

When I said I would proabaly still qualify as an alchoholic, I meant to those who ride the "disease" bandwagon. I understand the lingo, and that's why I don't write that I am a "recovering" alchoholic. I say I used to be a drunk. If some would say I have a genetic propensity toward alchoholism, so be it.

Jerry, we can't take the issue of having one beer back to sin, because it is not a sin. Being a drunk is a sin, but having a drink is not a sin.

Our inner man is not capable of sin, being regenerated.

But our outer man falls into all sorts of mischief
---James_L on 3/13/11

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We do have two natures, and our New Nature we become PARTAKERS of HIS divine nature THROUGH CHRIST alone. You have no perfect New Nature without Christ in you, and HIS LIFE living through you. God does not join His Life with your old man. That's why our old man is CRUCIFIED WITH CHRIST.

The definintion of your old man is old nature
The definition of the New Man is New Nature.

We become PARTAKERS of Christ's Nature THROUGH FAITH.. 2 Peter 1 says NATURE. God did not take your old man and RESTORE it, He CRUCIFIED it.

Old man, flesh, sin nature = Adam 1

New Man, Christ Nature, New Creation= our new life in Adam 2 or Christ.

Until we are totally redeemed, we will always have these two natures at war within.
---kathr4453 on 3/13/11

James L: "But occasionally I do have a drink."

Caution: A man covered with gasoline shouldn't play with matches.

If we take the analogy back to the issue of sin, we might say:

"I am a married Christian, but I occasionally indulge in a little adultery."

Is that what "freedom from the Law" means?
---jerry6593 on 3/13/11

Duane, Scripture nowhere tells us we have two natures. We only have one nature. The flesh is sinful, that is why it will die. You walk around each day with your flesh. You cannot get rid of it. It will surely die because of sin. We did not receive a new nature, we are a new creation. Regeneration means we are been transform to the image of God. What you say is that you've been transformed already. The flesh has not been redeemed. The reason we say we are sinners is because of our need of Christ everyday. The grace of God should lead a Christian to despair of himself, and to throw himself unconditionally into the arms of God, and to lay hold on unmerited grace, which alone can save him.
---Mark_V. on 3/13/11

JamesL, this is what I see in your post. You still see yourself under the old Adam. The NEW CREATURE of which you are, is not an Alcoholic. Your OLD MAN IS. Your old man was crucified with Christ. Your OLD MAN DIED with Christ. We all need to reckon this to be so regardless of our list of sins.

Haz27...we need to remember we NOW as christians have TWO natures....our old sin old man nature...that we certainly can revive....and that of which we are partakers Of His Divine NATURE...2 Peter says NATURE.

Living totally crucified in Christ IS A DAILY THING haz27...Paul said I die daily....

that's a daily obedience thing...and you claim to be 100% obedient daily? NOT SO!!!
---kathr4453 on 3/13/11

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To what end does it serve to call ourselves sinners? Who do you think sinners serve? Why do some feel the need to identify with the devil and his offspring(sinners) or Adams offspring, when God clearly says WE ARE OF THE SPIRIT. We have been born again. Now believe it.
---duane on 3/12/11

I get what you're saying. I was just responding to the quote. I have American Indian blood in me, and I know firsthand why it used to be illegal to sell liquor to my kind in the USA. :)

I would probably still qualify as an alcoholic, but I can say for sure that I used to be a drunk, but I am not a drunk anymore. Yet, I still have a drink occasionally.

Same with sin. I used to be a sinner, but I am now a saint. I am an ex sinner, even though I still sin (more often than I drink).

1Cor 6:9-11 lists a whole host of sinners, and Paul said "such were some of you". He did not say Such Are Some Of You, even though some still behaved this way. They had been washed, and were no longer sinners.
---James_L on 3/12/11

You quoted James2:19
"You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe and tremble!
But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?"

Yes the demons believe in God but look at the context.

Christians submit to God. Our works showing our faith is seen in John 6:29 when Jesus answered the question about what works we should do:
This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.
We believe on Jesus for salvation. It is no longer I that lives but Christ lives in me.

But demons do not submit to God.
---Haz27 on 3/12/11

I have been discussing "sin" on CN with others here who take an interest in God's word. I do not speak at such depth with unbelievers. Instead I share the gospel according to scriptures.

When I tell anybody that God says Christians are not sinners I ALSO explain why from scripture. The only people I usually have difficulties with are those deeply indoctrinated with traditional teachings.

A question:
Why would you share a gospel message that Jesus set us free from sin and then say that we are still sinners in spite of the cross? Does that not seem contradictory?

---Haz27 on 3/12/11

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James l The problem with what you say is that an alcoholic is not necessarily a drunk, nor does he necessarily continue to drink. If he stops drinking and never drinks again, he is still an alcoholic

And a drunk is not necessarily an alcoholic.
---alan8566_of_uk on 3/12/11

Donna66, I love Haz as a brother and what I say to him is to correct him. But whatever I say is really meaningless to him. I admit that I make a lot of mistakes in other blogs and I correct them or confess them. I fall short of the glory of God as Scripture declares, and I admit it. But speaking to sinless people, is useless since they are never wrong, and don't need any chastening. So I will leave this blog. Again I say, I love these brothers, but cannot help them at all. No one can, they have reached the goal, I haven't, God is still working in my life.
---Mark_V. on 3/12/11

I know perfectly well that the old man is crucified. But we still need God's correction as sons and daughters of the Almighty. Otherwise we are not His.

I could say "I don't sin", but people receive that about as well as unbelievers to whom you say " I've been saved by the blood of the lamb". Theologically correct.
But insufficient without explanation.
---Donna66 on 3/12/11

the label "sin" only applies to those in unbelief...
---Haz27 on 3/4/11
James tells us that the devils belive..., Are they not sinners
---dowanor on 3/12/11

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Mark and others,
You know WE can acheive nothing to be without sin. It is Christ in us and HIS work.
Christ could not be in us if we were sinners. We would be dead spiritually. The only way to be saved(have life) is to be without sin. Jesus Christ accomplished this for us, HE put away sin for us, now HE can live within us.
We now can have HIS LIFE.
Please have faith in what HE did on the Cross. There is NO other way.
---duane on 3/12/11

\\I like the anaolgy of the reformed alcholic, except that I don't agree that such a person continues to drink.\\
---jerry6593 on 3/11/11

But I am that guy. I was a drunk. My family has a history of alchoholism. I started drinking at age 14, and my only aim in drinking was to get as drunk as I could, as fast as I could. I stopped being a "drunk" in May 1998. In the 13 years since, I have had two 2-ounce samples of wine (5 years ago), one wine cooler a year and a half ago, and one beer about 8 months ago.

Like I said, I was a drunk, but I am not a drunk anymore. But occasionally I do have a drink.
---James_L on 3/12/11

We've discussed this topic often. I've explained why God says we cannot sin. I fail to see why you describe us as appearing hypocritical.

Just a reminder, I have said that it is ONLY Christ in us that makes us righteous. There is NOTHING in our flesh that achieves this. Thank God sin was condemned in the flesh, our old man crucified.
Our life is NOW hid with Christ in God. Christ's seed remains in us and we cannot sin because we are born of God.

We should not be concerned about using God's word. Isa55:11 explains.

"So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth,
It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please,
And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it".
---Haz27 on 3/12/11

Haz, you called the Scriptures I gave you false accusations, and you say, "lets share on God's Word"
How can you share God's Word if you don't need God's Word anymore since you have reached perfection. All the teachings in the New Testament for a saint, you have achieved. You don't need correction, as Eloy has claimed. You, Eloy, Duane have already achieved perfection. You can never be wrong. What can we possibly share with you? Nothing. You do not even need chastening from the Lord either. Isn't that odd?

"For whom the Lord loves He chastens" Scripture says,
"But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers," then you are illegitimate and not sons"
---Mark_V. on 3/12/11

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donna66, I agree with your last comment to Haz27.."No one wants to hear..."

As a Christian, having a personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ, OUR testamony as well ans so many INCLUDE God,s Grace and Mercy towards US when we so miserably fail, sin, fall short. Yes, we do get chastened, and from that LEARN from our mistakes and disobedience, becoming more like Christ.

Without the ups and downs THERE would be NO GROWTH. And may I also add, we would NEVER KNOW PERSONALLY How much God LOVES us, kisses our bruses and scrapes (when we do fall off our bike and skin our knees).

---kathr4453 on 3/12/11

Haz27-- Do you really think that people don't take your claim of sinlessness as a claim that you have attained perfection? Without more explanation, they certainly do!
They say to themselves: "Haz27 claims he doesn't sin, but anybody can see he's far from perfect. Isn't that hypocrisy?"
Nobody wants to hear more about the the gospel from one who seems to be, on the surface, self-righteous.
---Donna66 on 3/11/11

I see from your earlier post you are still making false allegations.

It is disappointing that you often resort to such tactics against others. I suggest you move on from your previous mistakes , stop your false accusations and let's just share on God's word.

Most Christians here do want the best for each other. We're not going to hold onto grudges for past offenses. But it makes for difficult discussion when someone resorts to false allegations.

And of course be open to God's revelation through the Holy Spirit. Please put away the Bible commentaries.
---Haz27 on 3/11/11

You have seen much scripture now showing how God wants us to consider, by FAITH, the old man to be dead.
The wages of sin is death and sin was condemned in the flesh. The old man WAS crucified.
Stop looking at that old man with it's sin. It's DEAD.

Look at Christ in you. Your life is NOW hid with Christ in God Col 3:3. Christ's seed remains in you and you cannot sin because YOU ARE BORN OF GOD. 1John3:9

And to deny that we sin does not make us appear liars. God says 1John3:6-9 that we cannot sin. We should bring this good news to others that Christ sets us free from sin. Don't tell them that we are still in sin as this contradicts the cross. We have been delivered from sin and death and have life everlasting.
---Haz27 on 3/11/11

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"But our selfish natures sometimes get involved and we fall back into sin, repent, and start over.

Joh 8:11 .... go, and sin no more."

---jerry6593 on 3/11/11

Good point 'selfish'!

Mark14:38: "Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation. The spirit truly is ready, but the flesh is weak."
The mind is flesh too if it is not on sane and clean things. A believer who sins again in that which he was delivered
from, is taking a break from God and is a part time believer...
---Nana on 3/11/11

markV-- Exactly. It is just plain foolish not recognize human nature (which some call the "sin nature"). If we are a Christian, Christ's blood cleanses all our sins in the sight of God. But to deny that
we CAN sin makes us appear as liars and egotists to anyone who lives on this earth.

God may see me as perfectly righteous because of Christ's sacrifice. But, surely, not every human who knows me will think so.. Even the Father Himself sometimes convicts and corrects me.

By the same token, I do not scrutinize every person who claims to be a Christian... taking every wrong-doing as proof he isn't.
Over time, people pretty much show what they are...or aren't
---Donna66 on 3/11/11

Doesn't Scripture include examples of believers who committed gross sin? Didn't David commit murder and adultery and allow his sin to go unconfessed for at least a year? Lot was another. Those examples prove that genuine believers are capable of the worst imaginable sins. David did repent thoroughly of his sin when Nathan confronted him, and he willingly accepted the Lord's discipline (2 Sam. 12:1-23). Psalm 51 is an expression of David's deep repentance. The point is, this was merely one episode in David's life. It was not his habit. 1 Kings 15:5 say "David did what was right in the sight of the Lord, and had not turned aside from anything that He commanded him all the days of his life, except in the case of Uriah the Hittite"
---Mark_V. on 3/11/11

duane, A-men. I do not know of anybody who can overcome sin while they continue to serve sin. First the soul must admit they need salvation and deliverance from sin, then go to the only person whom is able to save them and to give them a righteous life, namely, Jesus Christ the only Savior for all". The sinner needs to go to Jesus in prayer, confess their sins and ask him to save them from sin and to make them born-again, and ask Jesus to keep them on the staright and narrow path of righteousness always and at all times. It is a daily choice for a person to either live with Jesus, or else they choose to live without Jesus, in their life. When you really love Jesus, you will not nail him to cross in order to go serve worthless sin instead.
---Eloy on 3/11/11

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duane, A-men. I do not know of anybody who can overcome sin while they continue to serve sin. First the soul must admit they need salvation and deliverance from sin, then go to the only person whom is able to save them and to give them a righteous life, namely, Jesus Christ the only Savior for all". The sinner needs to go to Jesus in prayer, confess their sins and ask him to save them from sin and to make them born-again, and ask Jesus to keep them on the straight and narrow path of righteousness always and at all times. It is a daily choice for a person to either live with Jesus, or else they choose to live without Jesus, in their life. When you really love Jesus, you will not nail him to cross in order to go serve worthless sin instead.
---Eloy on 3/11/11

It seems most here just cant get over that they are still sinners. There is no reason to argue the point because its just a matter of faith. Jesus came to put away sin. Some believe that and some dont. We dont search the scriptures trying to disprove we are totally freed from sin through the Cross. Freedom from sin is the reason we can claim the Christian faith and claim life. It is impossible for a man of faith to sin. (Remain in the faith and you cannot sin.) Jesus overcame sin for you.
---duane on 3/11/11

I like the anaolgy of the reformed alcholic, except that I don't agree that such a person continues to drink. I am a reformed (former) smoker of now 21 years. I know that if I were to take a single puff on a cigarette now, I would be back up to 2 packs a day in notime. So, by the power of God's grace, I refrain.

So it is with sin. When we are born again, the penalty of all our former sins is paid in full, and we become perfectly sinless as long as we remember that Christ is able to keep us from falling. But our selfish natures sometimes get involved and we fall back into sin, repent, and start over.

Joh 8:11 .... go, and sin no more.
---jerry6593 on 3/11/11

Haz, God's law expresses His own righteousness, not ours, and is the ultimate standard for our behavior. When we miss achieving this standard, we sin. "For all sin and come short of the glory of God" Rom. 3:23. "all" means all. We are all sinners in need of redemption. Even when we are in Christ, everyday we need redemption for our moral actions. Even our thoughts are sinful. Just take what you said to me, you judged my faith, and so judged my salvation. Compare to you, my faith is worthless, but yours is perfect. I have never thought you were not saved, all I did was disagree with your interpretation of 1 John 1:8. And I apologized to you, but I guess that was not good enough.
---Mark_V. on 3/11/11

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It's good that you clarify things with people that Jesus dealt with sin on the cross. But not all do this.

I've seen teachings of condemnation based on man's ambiguous definitions of sin.
It's unfortunate that tradition has led people astray.

But God's definitions of sin are still the best to use to rightly understand God's word. This way people will understand that Jesus truly has set us free from sin.
---Haz27 on 3/10/11

Haz27-- Of course, people always choose the terminology they wish to use. Some terms are easily understood by others, some terms encompass so much that they are not equally understood by everyone. Sin is such a word... used different ways in scripture and understood in several ways. I will try to clarify what I say (so that I may be understood) instead of simply allowing people to draw the wrong conclusions from what I say...and then blaming them for missing the truth.
---Donna66 on 3/10/11

In this blog we have shared with each other to help determine the matter.

John 16:9 tells us that the sin the world will be convicted of is unbelief. This is a clear and specific definition.

Man's tradition tells us sin is wrong-doing. This definition can mean anything although usually is referred to bad behaviour.

Ultimately it is the individual's choice which they want to accept. My advice is to follow God's definition of sin to rightly understand scripture.
---Haz27 on 3/10/11

Believers do not SIN for sin is not found in them as it was forgiven. Sinners because sin is in their blood, in their DNA. If say you are saved and yet you sin, you were never saved in the first place. 1John3:7-13
---E_Chinguwa on 3/10/11

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Righteous and unrighteous/ungodly are fine biblical terms. But their unqualified use causes endless misunderstandings as illustrated in the beginning of this thread.
---Donna66 on 3/9/11

You are correct we should use 2 different terms.

1Peter 4:18 gives us 2 terms.
Group 1: Righteous
Group 2: Ungodly/Sinners

But I understand what you mean. When considering our physical and it's wrong doings, yes that is FAR from perfect. But, we walk by faith so we believe God when He says our life is hid with Christ in God. Henceforth we regard no man acording to the flesh 2Cor 5:16.

But you are correct Christians do make mistakes. Nothing wrong with admitting that. But more importantly is our standing in Christ.

---Haz27 on 3/9/11

Christians(born again) are perfect in HIS sight. We have Christ in us. The flesh is not perfect but we live by the Spirit. The old is gone, we have a new life, perfect forever.
---duane on 3/9/11

Maybe we should use two completely different terms...
"sinner" for one who neither knows nor has faith in the redemption available through Jesus. While those who depend on Christ for their redemption are
"Imperfect Christians". I think Haz27 (and others who agree with him) might tolerate this.
---Donna66 on 3/9/11

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The sin of the world is truley unbelief in HIM.
Salvation means life. There is no salvation(life) as long as there is sin. The reason why men need the Cross? So men could be freed from sin and gain LIFE through faith.
---duane on 3/7/11

Christians walk by faith and we know that faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen.

What physical evidence do you have that you are saved? Or do you believe by faith?

Likewise, why not believe God also when He says that we are not sinners being that the old man was crucified with Christ and I no longer live but Christ lives in me. Christ's seed remains in us and we cannot sin 1John3:9.

Stop looking for physical evidence. Have faith in God instead.
---Haz27 on 3/7/11

A person can call himself whatever he wants. But it does not make it true. Maybe in the persons mind but not with God. All, and that means everyone, come short of the glory of God. God only is pure, perfect and holy. No one else is. Especially human beings. We are free indeed, from the bondage of sin. And there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ, and we are made righteous by the imputed righteousness of Christ. We are in Christ, but while in Christ we still sin when we do not walk in the Spirit. And no one walks every second in the Spirit. The rest of the time we walk in the flesh. Our sins are forgiven, but they are still called sin. No one has had their flesh redeemed. Not one person. Only One is perfect, and that is Jesus Christ.
---Mark_V. on 3/7/11

I mentioned before that "sinner" would carry the same kind of implication that "drunk" would.

Example - I used to be a drunk. I am no longer a drunk. But I still drink.

Sinner is who you are.
Sin is what you do.

We still have sin, even though we are not sinners. Paul said that in Romans 7. But it is not I who sins, but sin in me.

What are we to call ourselves? Saints. Whether we stumble or not, we are still saints. Whether or not we have anything that looks saintly, we are still saints.
---James_L on 3/6/11

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Thanks for your post. Although I wasnt offended by your earlier post you refer to. I was more concerned about the stance you were taking.

By the way, I believe I am righteous in CHRIST. You erred in claiming that I thought everything I did in life was righteous.

Please read Josef's post. It explains our position as Christians well. And this is what I have been trying to explain to you. The sin the world will be convicted of is unbelief in Jesus as John16:9 says.
You have been stuck on sin being transgressing the law etc.

---Haz27 on 3/6/11

JAMES 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumbles in one point, he is guilty of all.
( The smallest of sin is like the greatest sin in GOD eyes.)

1 JOHN 5:18 WE know that whoever is born of GOD DOES NOT SIN: but he who has been born of GOD keeps himself,and the wicked one does not touch him.
( Once a person been saved Christ has pay for that persons sins,past and future, Now saying that, the nature of a saved person is to do the will of GOD.)
---RICHARDC on 3/6/11

I dont know about the word sinner but Ive noticed in scripture where the word "sin" takes on a different meaning depending on the context of the passage of scripture.
---CraigA on 3/5/11

The only sin that remains after the atoning sacrifice and resurrection of Jesus [who bore our sins in His own body], is the sin that so easily besets us all, the sin of unbelief, which has/will caused some to commit the eternal sin, the sin of willfully rejecting the salvation of God, graciously offered through the atoning sacrifice of HIs Son, by blatantly refusing to willingly acknowledge and confess Jesus as Lord of salvation, "being delivered unto death for our offenses", and believing that The Father has raised Him from the dead "for our justification". Justification, "the act of The Father declaring men free from guilt and acceptable to him". Be Free, for whom the Son sets free, is free indeed.
---Josef on 3/6/11

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Craig "The phrase "I am a sinner saved by grace" is truly not biblical. We are ex-sinners if we have been born again"

This is the puzzle, and why I opened this blog.

What are we to call the person who is born-again, and who then sins (as we do)?
---alan8566_of_uk on 3/6/11

You are correct saying "We are ex-sinners if we have been born again."

However, James 5:20, he who has strayed from the truth is in unbelief, therefore a sinner.

1John 1:8 is again refering to sin of unbelief. Reading 1John1 from the start we see it is an evangelical context declaring eternal life to those in darkness (without Christ).

Rom 7 is speaking of the war between flesh and spirit. Jesus delivered us though (verse25). Rom7:5,6 We WERE in the flesh but NOW are delivered.

You are correct that a new creation person cannot sin.
The old man was crucified with Christ. I no longer live but Christ lives in me" Gal 2:20
"Henceforth we know no man after the flesh" 2Cor 5:16
---Haz27 on 3/6/11

Whether you're a OSAS type that thinks that HIS sins don't really count or, like mona, you beleive that you're predestined for salvation even if you live like the devil, you still don't understand the biblical concept of salvation - Christ in you, the hope of glory. It is possible to become a FORMER sinner.

1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Joh 8:11 .... go, and sin no more.

1Co 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not, for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
---jerry6593 on 3/6/11

Haz, I posted an answer to you on another blog, but it closed and you did not read it. I was answering you because of what Christian had said to me. I wanted to apologize for my answers to you. When I gave you 1 john 1:8, I was not suggesting you yourself was not saved. Only suggesting that if you said you had no sin, the Truth was not in you and that you had been deceived as Scripture indicates. That was all. You have a right to your interpretation and I will respect your right. You want to say that everything you do in your life is righteous, and when you sin, it is not called sin, that is fine with me. I love you brother and I sure don't want to hurt a brother in Christ. Thanks for debating with me on this topic.
---Mark_V. on 3/6/11

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Repent unto Remission-
A Complete Action-we repent-He forgives.
Agreement-He expose'-sin-we repent from it-[Remission].A Sin not repented is a sin not forgiven.
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt[confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus], and shalt [believe] in thine heart that God hath [raised him from the dead],thou shalt be [saved].
Complete action-confess Yehovah's Word-believe He has Risen.

The Word of God is truth- God testifies of it In Spirit.1Cor 2(all),1Jn 4,5

Rom 10:10 For with the [heart] man believeth unto righteousness, and with the [mouth confession is made unto salvation].Mat 4:4But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but [by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.]
---char on 3/6/11

I would mostly agree with Haz27 that a sinner is one who is still in unbelief.

The phrase "I am a sinner saved by grace" is truly not biblical. We are ex-sinners if we have been born again.

However, a few scriptures use the word "sinner" to describe a believer (James 5:20, et al) who has strayed from the truth.

Believers still have sin (1John 1:8), but as Paul wrote "I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me" (Rom 7:20, see 1John 3:9)

The difference is spirit versus flesh. A born again spirit cannot sin, being a new creation with a new heart.

But, we still reside in sinful flesh which won't be recreated sinless until the resurrection.
---James_L on 3/5/11

\\God does not hold wrongs against a saved person.\\

Where did you get that idea?
---Cluny on 3/4/11

There is only one meaning to the word "sinner". A sinner is disobedient to the Lord God Jesus Christ. The sinner chooses to live in opposition or against the Commandments from Christ. The sinner is not the saint, and the saint is not the sinner: the goat is not the sheep, and the sheep is not the goat: the tare is not the wheat, and the wheat is not the tare. You will know them by their fruits: the righteous bear good fruits, and the sinuous bear rotten fruits.
---Eloy on 3/4/11

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If you do a word search in the Bible you will see that there is only one type of "sinner". They are in unbelief and self-righteousness.

Traditional belief's of "sinner" follow the first description you gave (someone who does wrong things and even saints do that).
You are correct that saints even do wrong things and we also know that God chastises those He loves.
But the label "sin" only applies to those in unbelief and self-righteousness. We also see in scripture that sin results in death.
---Haz27 on 3/4/11

Hi, Alan . . . In the Bible, often I think "sinner" means a person who is going against God, all the time, and living plainly for one's own self. But we have people who claim to have been saved, and now they say they are not perfect and so they sin, and therefore they are sinners. However, they are not just going against God, all the time. But they admit they are wrong and seek forgiveness and pray to do better. So, they say they are "sinners", in order to be honest and admit they still are not perfect.

Sins may not be held against a person, since the person asks forgiveness *and* forgives others. Mark 11:25
---Bill_willa6989 on 3/3/11

The saints were chosen from the beginning of the world and most of them were sinners before they became saints. They are already perfect in the eyes of God and without fault. I beleive there are different levels of sin....For instance some thieves can obviously get into heaven because Jesus forgave the thief on the cross. Jesus also is coming as a thief and blessed are those who keep ahold of their clothes so they don't have to walk naked in the street.
---mona on 3/3/11

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