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Forced Free Will By God

If we being created by God have no choice but to do what God wills in our life where is our free will and why would we be judged?

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 ---paul on 3/11/11
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And should man choose not to serve God then what?
---francis on 3/15/11

Francis,
Then that man will reap the harvest of his choice, separation from the Father.
---AG on 3/17/11


I feel like Im repeating myself every week. Mark, Ill highlight the words for you.

I am not doubting the sovereignty of Gods will

Those verses you supply dont tell WHAT the will of God is, only that He will DO what He wants. We disagree on what He WANTS to do!

I believe what his word says when it says he has no pleasure in our death, died for the sins of all men, is longsuffering giving all men plenty of time to repent and believe in His Son because He wants to save all men. '

I hope it is clear to you now.

Now lets see if you will continue to lie about where I stand...
---CraigA on 3/17/11


--They say all our actions are programed and our future is laid out by GOD. Then why are they here arguing? After all what is the point?---

Samuel, that very question has been posed to Mark and Christan many times. It seems common sense to everyone else except a HyperCalvinist. If we're all "fated/predestined" to one destiny or another, theres no point reason for them to even be here arguing. Nothing they say or do can change our fate. They dont realize just the fact they are HERE proves they dont even believe the words that are coming from their lips.
---CraigA on 3/17/11


If a human king forced his subject to disobey his law and then punished them for it we would call him unjust, evil, and tyrannical. Yet some claim this makes God good.

Those who claim God does not give free will dont even know him. They read the book with a heart of stone and the message never sinks in. Their beliefs place the reason for man's rebellion on God instead of satan - exactly where the enemy of God wants it.

One other thing to think about: If Christ dies for all men as scripture teaches, and some men dare teach he didnt, how are they not considered the enemy of Christ?
---Jasherdan on 3/17/11


///Craig 2: If you had not ignored what God said in His Word you would know the nature of God markV///

Again...there is a fair way to argue, and a distructive way. This markv and christan you both fail to understand.

There is this hitting below the belt, that says...I KNOW GOD YOU DON'T attitude that just reaks of ARROGANCE....maybe that is a better choice of words...

Arrogance not sarcasm.

It was ARROGANT one liners trav posted, now that I look at it.

Christ in you should be HUMBLE, not arrogant.

My apologies for using the wrong description!
---kathr4453 on 3/17/11




I know markv, that's why trav posted line after line of your one liners to others on a blog....
---kathr4453 on 3/17/11


Craig 2: If you had not ignored what God said in His Word you would know the nature of God,
"He worketh all things after the counsel of His own will" Eph. 1:11.
And you ignore when He tells us,
"He doeth according to His will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay His hand" Prov. 19:21. but you say that is not true, Oh wait, you never answer those passages that speak about God, and because you believe they are not true. They don't stand to your theology, and everyday you fight for your own rights, compromising the rights of Almighty God who saved you.
---Mark_V. on 3/17/11


As a Seventh day Adventist from the Methodist tradition I do not follow Calvanism.

They say all our actions are programed and our future is laid out by GOD. Then why are they here arguing? After all what is the point?

People who GOD wants to go to heaven will, those who GOD does not, they imagine, will be suffering in hell for all eterity for what GOD made them do. Nothing they say will make any difference. Why argue when the point you are trying to make is that arguing and discussing is useless?
---Samuel on 3/17/11


Kathr, may I remind you that no one has used more carnal remarks at us then you have. No one comes close. If you spoke in the Spirit of Truth, you would never say what you do to others who are brothers in Christ. I hear a lot of people argue doctrines, but you attack the person. If you debated godly, you would walk in the Spirit, but you have decided to walk in the flesh. You do have that choice. But your will is not free, it is moved by your desires. Just like the brothers of Joseph, the brothers were jealous so they did what was wicked in their hearts, but the result Joseph said, God meant it for good.
---Mark_V. on 3/17/11


You can show me all the verses you want but it's your doctrine that I have a problem with and not the verses written in the Scripture.
---christan on 3/16/11


So then if a scripture says God doesnt take pleasure in doing something and you say he does, who has the wrong doctrine?
---Jasheradan on 3/17/11




Only a beggarly god of your imagination need to convince the man.

---christan on 3/16/11

Has anyone noticed HOW Calvinists communicate with those who see and understand scripture differently? They have a book full of stabbing INSULTS.

Does the Holy Spirit use sarcastic insults on ANYONE all the while accusing YOU of not having the Holy Spirit.
Sarcasm is the weapons of their warefare...CARNAL WEAPONS!


So THEIR God sends all sorts of warnings to lead man to repent, but all along THEIR God is snickering behind everyone's back (big joke in heaven) because man is incapable of repentance. Sounds like Satan to me.

My God doesn't say one thing and do another..only a TWO FACED MONSTER WOULD.
---kathr4453 on 3/17/11


Craig, We have given you Scripture after Scripture about God and you have ignored it, because you have to. As Christian said, you've created a god to your liking, and the passages that speaks about the real God of Scripture you ignore compromising the nature of God. Just take your free will believes, that you have the power to determine the outcome of your life, when God says,

"A man's heart deviseth his way: But the Lord directed his steps" Prov. 16:9.
What you ought to say is,
"If the Lord will" James 4:13, 15. But you will cannot grasp the words of God because you suggest, "How can that be? I have free will" Show me your free will, and I will show you God.
---Mark_V. on 3/17/11


Mark


As you will note in the 8th chapter prior to Gods hardening in chapter 9 Pharos heart was already hard toward the Israelite s

In chapter 9 God wasnt finished with Pharaohs yet to the point of receiving ALL the Glory for their release, so He hardened his heart more-so.

God couldnt let it be said that the Israelite s were released at the hand of Pharaoh, He showed His might in their deliverance alone.



Ex 3:18 -20 (read in entirety)

Ex 8:32 But Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go.

Ex 9:12 But the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he did not heed them, just as the LORD had spoken to Moses.
---paul on 3/16/11


Moderator please post this finished version, Thanx


Mark


As you will note in the 8th chapter prior to Gods hardening in chapter 9 Pharos heart was already hard toward the Israelite s in the current turn of events.

In chapter 9 God wasnt finished with Pharaohs yet to the point of receiving ALL the Glory for their release, so He hardened his heart more-so.

I realize in ch 4 God spoke of this but He already knew Pharaohs heart toward the Children of Israel

God couldnt let it be said that the Israelite s were released at the hand of Pharaoh, He showed His might in their deliverance alone.



Ex 3:18 -20 (read in entirety)

Ex 8:32

Ex 9:12
---paul on 3/16/11


To those who believe against free-will.

Is it impossible that the God of the universe( knowing all things) who tries the heart.

Could not choose vessels that have dishonored themselves and been given over to a reprobate mind.

Who have had a chance and been turned over to satan to use in these situations by which God uses people to enact His will.

And that the person had a choice and forfeit it thus qualifying them for such acts.

Their are those who no matter what will always pump their fist of rebellion at God.


Re 16:11 -12

Re 9:20 But the rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands,

God Bless, Paul
---paul on 3/16/11


Jasheradan, how man verses? Convince? I have no problem with all the verses in the Holy Bible from Genesis to Revelation. If you are born of the Spirit, you will be convicted and not convinced. Only a beggarly god of your imagination need to convince the man.

You can show me all the verses you want but it's your doctrine that I have a problem with and not the verses written in the Scripture.
---christan on 3/16/11


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How many verses would it take to convince you Christan?

You give me a number and I will dig them up.
---Jasheradan on 3/16/11


"Your God is only defined in Romans chapter 9 and a couple of other verses." Jasheradan

You accuse me of defining God with Romans 9 and "a couple of other verses" - you seem to forget that we have a limit of 125 word per entry. I simply showed you three verses (there are many more) from the Scripture and your denial of the God I worship is clear.

And worse still, you use one line (hmmm... sound familiar?) of my reply and paint me with the same brush as Benny Hin. I assure you that Benny Hin and yourself are in the same boat of rejecting the God I worship. If Benny Hin was to preach the God I believe, he would be without his huge followers and congregation.
---christan on 3/16/11


Christan, how many times have others given you and Mark scripture and you completely ignore it?

God has declared with his own mouth "I have NO PLEASURE IN THE DEATH OF THE WICKED" in Ezekiel 33:11.

Set this image of God beside your interpretation of Romans 9. Do they match??? You know they dont.

MAN chooses his path, the LORD directs our steps. (Proverbs 16:9) Pharoah chose his path (apart from God), God used him in that evil path to bring glory to His name.

The path we choose determines if we're to be used as a vessel of honor or one of dishonor. (2 Tim 2:20,21)

Now stop your false claims that others dont base their opinions on scripture. Our God is not a liar. Is yours?
---CraigA on 3/16/11


There are many areas in life where we Have NO choice. We do not choose our DNA, our place of birth or our cultural roots. The Japanese did not choose to be in caught in an earth quake and tsunami, and those who died did not choose to do so. And we CANNOT know why. We like to think we have much more control in our lives than we do. (it is a necessary self-defense mechanism.)

Our only choice is what to do with the "cards" we are dealt.
We can reject Jesus or not. These are choices on which we will be judged. But sometimes even those choices are limited. Sometimes we can "make" things happen, sometimes we can't. Unless you believe in a random universe, you must believe God is in control.
---Donna66 on 3/15/11


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Jasheradan, at least my testimony and witness is from the Bible, regardless of the verses used. I do not speak of a God that's from my imagination but from the Scripture as He declares Himself to be.

What about your testimony? You are what Paul declared, "Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful, but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools..."

You speak directly from your own heart, saying "Satan knows how to use scripture as well. He always tells some truth, then throws in a big lie."
---christan on 3/16/11


"Pharaohs heart was hard right from the start." Paul

Really? Read the following Scripture,

"And I am sure that the king of Egypt will not let you go, no, not by a mighty hand." Exodus 3,19

"And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go." Exodus 4:21

Pharaoh would not let Israel go because God says He was going to harden Pharaoh's heart. Clear and simple, no need to deviate from Scripture with foolish explainations or commentaries.
---christan on 3/16/11


Calvinists, here is something to consideer as well.

Was HELL also created in the 1st 6 days of creation? If so, where in scripture is that. If all were forordained to either life or hell B4 the foundation of the world,then hell would have been created as well for those God planned to send there.
Also, was hell created for man?? or angels??

I find hell was NOT created for man...again telling me God had no prior plan before creation to send man there.

We do know however man will end up in the lake of fire, AKA Hell with the fallen angels and Satan.
---kathr4453 on 3/16/11


Joseph with the first Pharoah.

Joseph's motive....the dream. God told Joseph as a child something extrodinary would happen to him. What God told him actually came to pass.

That pharoah and egypt were blessed through Joseph's God, making all of Joseph's dream come to pass.

God made Abraham a promise...I will bless those whoo bless you and curse those who curse you

Pharoah 1/Joseph, blessed Joseph, whereby blessing Israel and received blessing and MERCY.

Pharoah 2/ cursed Israel and received God wrath/ NO MERCY AS GOD SAID He would do.

It's really not hard, and one day AGAIN as Paul explains in Romans 11 ISRAEL will be blessed and arrogant gentiles who opposed, God's wrath will come upon! NO MERCY!
---kathr4453 on 3/16/11


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Paul, I am answering you because you have to this day not brought out satan for your defense as many others do when someone disagrees with them, their heart have been hardened.

What I was showing you was that the brothers of Joseph had a choice. But it was not free will they had, because they had a motive, their will was not free of any bias. They were jealous. The sale of Joseph into Egypt by his brothers was a very wicked act, yet we see that it was overruled not only for Joseph's good but also for the good of the brothers themselves. When it is traced to its source we see that God was the Author. God did not make them sin, He allowed them to sin to complete His purpose.
---Mark_V. on 3/16/11


Christian

No one was created for destruction by the creator of life.

Pharaohs heart was hard right from the start, God used that to show forth His power to the children of Israel.

It was not hardened for the destruction of Pharaoh but for the power and Glory of God to be revealed, that's what the day of Pentecost was about.

God created no one for hell and destruction, though some will go.

Mt 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

God Bless,Paul
---paul on 3/15/11


Mark

Why do you feel their was no choice in Josephs situation?

God Bless, PAul
---paul on 3/15/11


Paul part 2: to show you how this works, take the story of Joseph and his brothers. Joseph later told them,
"You meant evil against me, But God meant it for good" (Gen. 50:20). Here the motive was the decisive factor determining whether the act was good or evil. God's involvement in Joseph's life was good, the brothers involvement was evil. His brother motivation to sell him was not spontaneous nor neutral, they were jealous of their brother.
The second reason is, if there is no prior inclination, desire, no motivation or reason for a choice, how can a choice even be made? If the will is totally neutral, why would it choose the right or the left?
---Mark_V. on 3/15/11


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When God evaluates our choices, He judges us by our motives.
---Mark_V. on 3/15/11

Free will is making a choice. I'm free to choose life or death...THIS choice was given to man. God also gave us a motive for this choice...LIFE OR DEATH.

So everythig else you said markv is nothing more than a philosoply.

I have a free will to choose what toilet paper to buy. My motive would be, price, softness, visual appeal...does it match my bathroom decor??.

Name a choice of free will that has no motive...everything we are given free will to chose we have a motive between this one or that. LIFE OR DEATH folks...

Now I can't free will myself to the moon or Venus..because 1.) I was never given a choice between the two.
---kathr4453 on 3/15/11


Francis, man can choose this day whom he will serve.
---AG on 3/15/11

And should man choose not to serve God then what?
---francis on 3/15/11


Francis, man can choose this day whom he will serve.

(NET) Joshua 24:15 If you have no desire to worship the LORD, choose today whom you will worship, whether it be the gods whom your ancestors worshiped beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living. But I and my family will worship the LORD!"

Psalms 119:30 I choose the path of faithfulness, I am committed to your regulations.
---AG on 3/15/11


Man has been given the ability to choose, but that ability has limitations. ---AG on 3/15/11

Ok what are his choices, and can man choose not to make a choice?
---FRANCIS on 3/15/11


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This discussion requires a definition of terms. Man has been given the ability to choose, but that ability has limitations. Free will is not an absolute. The Father has plans and designs of His own. His will supersedes that of any man.
---AG on 3/15/11


I witness and testify to you the God I worship:---Christan

Benny Hinn worshipped "God" too, remember? And yet he proved himself a false prophet.

Your God is only defined in Romans chapter 9 and a couple of other verses. The rest of the things He says about himself cannot be true because they dont fit with your interpretation of Romans 9.

Youre not the first misled Calvinist Ive come across. Ive met some God-fearing Calvinist who actually study their Bible and dont give in to false doctrines as well. I hope they can bring you back. A Calvinist will never listen to anyone outside of their church.

Satan knows how to use scripture as well. He always tells some truth, then throws in a big lie.
---Jasheradan on 3/15/11


How can you have free will if the punishment for not doing God's will is death?

Free will would mean that you cna do YOUR OWN WILL without the death penalty.

The choice is: GOD'S WILL or DEATH.
If someone said to you" Give me all your money or i will kill you" if you give him all your money is that your free will, or your fear of death?
---francis on 3/15/11


"So you are saying God created Herod and others specifically for wickedness and inevitably hell? Paul"

Yes. It's taught in the life of Pharaoh, Romans 9:17, "For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth."

And Paul declares "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction" Romans 9:22

And Pharaoh's life was predestined for "destruction". Romans 9 is a very sobering epistle indeed.
---christan on 3/15/11


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Jasheradan, you have a god of your own imagination by your description and not the God of the Bible. I witness and testify to you the God I worship:

"For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward" Deuteronomy 10:17

"He is thy praise, and he is thy God, that hath done for thee these great and terrible things, which thine eyes have seen." Deuteronomy 10:21

"And said, I beseech thee, O LORD God of heaven, the great and terrible God, that keepeth covenant and mercy for them that love him and observe his commandments" Nehemiah 1:5

Not only is He my God but my Father.
---christan on 3/15/11


Christian

This is the scripture I was referring to, sorry you misunderstood it but the scripture does say it is not HIS WILL FOR ANY TO PERISH.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

God Bless, Paul
---paul on 3/15/11


Paul, definition of free will. The ability to make choices without any prior prejudice, inclination, or disposition. for the will to be free it must act from a posture of neutrality, with absolutely no bias. This appeals to so many. There is no elements of coercion. However below the surface lurks two serious problems. One, if we make our choices strictly from a neutral posture, with no inclinations, then we make choices for no reason. If we have no reason for our choices, and our choices are utterly spontaneous, then our choices have no moral significance. If a choice just happens-just pops out, with no rhyme or reason for it, then it cannot be judge good or bad. When God evaluates our choices, He judges us by our motives.
---Mark_V. on 3/15/11


Thats exactly what it sounds like Paul. Its called double predestination. Its the view of the elitist sect of Calvinism.

Although God mentions in scripture He has no pleasure in such a thing some try to make God look like the cause of sin. Such men will ignore any scripture that you give them against those beliefs because they become pricked in their hearts for blaspheming the name of God.
---Jasheradan on 3/14/11


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Christian

So you are saying God created Herod and others specifically for wickedness and inevitably hell?

Paul
---paul on 3/14/11


Christian


BTW God created the people who became wicked, so when it says He created the wicked He is speaking of the person not their state of wickedness that He has created.

And the wicked will be turned over to the evil day.

What kind of God would create someone, make a way for redemption and then refuse to offer it to all, For God so loved the WORLD.

The ELECT are those He elected to save, for God so loved the WORLD

God Bless, Paul
---paul on 3/14/11


Paul, the correct Scripture is "Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways, for why will ye die, O house of Israel?" Ezekiel 33:11

Yet, Solomon declared "The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." Proverbs 16:4

In short, God specifically created Herod, Pilate and the people for a wicked purpose in crucifying His Son for a Holy purpose. And in the death of His Son at Calvary, Christ's blood cleansed His people (the elect) from their sins. What a perfect and Holy plan.
---christan on 3/14/11


Jesus is the 'lifeboat' that will sail into the next world and is destined for the port of 'forever life'.

The fare is free, but not everyone will jump into that boat. Some were taught to FEAR God and believed many 'lies within lies' (insidious lies) because their human/mortal weakness (the flesh) inspired them to WANT to believe lies (but my lord shall visit them before the final judgement), others have deliberately chosen to be reckless toward their fellow human being.

It is not completely accurate and well expressed to say that the The Lord IMPOSES any requirements, it is simply that the boat is MADE OF "LIGHT", and/but so many have chosen to hide in the darkness.
---more_excellent_way on 3/14/11


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"Jasheradan, I merely showed you the verses that God is sovereign and does as He pleases, and man will be held accountable"

In other words,

"I the loving God, make you so that everyting you do is sin, and I will make you so that you do not repent, and so you will go on sinning. And I, the author of your utterly depraved nature, and indeed the maker of it, now make you responsible for the evil that I have wrought in you"
---alan8566_of_uk on 3/14/11


paul, you know too, if man had no free will, and did exactly as God pre-programed...then why would He promise rewards to His own. Not that we do it for rewards, but just knowning we will be rewarded.
That's the awsomeness of it. Our fruit bearing...some 30-70-100% I BELIEVE is our willingness.
---kathr4453 on 3/14/11


Jasheradan, I merely showed you the verses that God is sovereign and does as He pleases, and man will be held accountable. Let Scripture demonstrate to you, Acts 4:27,28 "For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done."

So, who was it that brought the mentioned people together to crucify Christ? Your answer has to be God based on Scripture. Yet Peter declared in Acts 5:30 "The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree." Everything has been predestined regardless of your feelings.
---christan on 3/14/11


I must say these are very thought provoking posts by each one of you.

I am glad however to see that for the most part it is widely believed that we have free will and are not forced by God to do His will, how refreshing.

I believe God chooses us according to our several ability to accomplish His will for He formed us and knows our hearts and what we will or will not do.

Therefore we do have free will but Christ knows our desire or lack thereof for certain assignments.

Very good conversations guys, thanks

I find them challenging, and I love to be challenged, it motivates growth.

God Bless, Paul
---paul on 3/14/11


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if we are told that god's will is the best for us then who decided for rich televangelist to be rich? did god told them that my will for you is to be rich or did televangelist decided that being rich is the BEST For them
---mike on 3/14/11


This is one of the best question I have ever seen in thi sblog.

I have often said that we do not have free will. We either serve God or die. Keeping in mind that God has already taken the death for us.

I often wonder if free will truely exists. To me free will would give us a choice not to choose anything and yet not face death.

Free will would mean not choosing to serve God with no consequence, choosing to serve God and going to heaven, or not choosing either and still with no consequence.
---francis on 3/14/11


\\ He could choose the things of God if he wanted them, but he does not want them. Our wills are such that we cannot freely choose what we have no desire to choose.\\

Of course, the Bible in Revelation says, "Whosoever will, let him come."
---Cluny on 3/14/11


Paul 2: What was lost at the fall, was the good inclinations or righteous desires for obedience towards God. He has no love for God that stirs his will to choose Christ. He could choose the things of God if he wanted them, but he does not want them. Our wills are such that we cannot freely choose what we have no desire to choose. The fundamental loss of a desire for God is at the heart of original sin. The lack of desire for the things of God renders us morally unable to choose the good in the name of our Lord. When we say a person is spiritually dead, means that he loses the moral ability towards God. He is separated from God. He needs to be born again of the Spirit in order to have a relationship with God, and a true love for Christ.
---Mark_V. on 3/14/11


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PAUL, First, we human beings are not forced to do GOD's Will. GOD gives, and freely invites, each one of us to CHOOSE to do His Will. GOD will help us, empower us to do His Will, if we really want to, and if we let Him. It seems to some that we are "forced" to do GOD's Will, but, I think what they mean by that, is that, 'if one wants to go to Heaven and not be damned to Hell, then they have to do what GOD's wills.' But, that is the Choice GOD offers each of us. We just simply have to decide which one we want. And, that, before we die.
---Gordon on 3/14/11


Paul 2: What was lost at the fall, was the good inclinations or righteous desires for obedience towards God. He has no love for God that stirs his will to choose Christ. He could choose the things of God if he wanted them, but he does not want them. Our wills are such that we cannot freely choose what we have no desire to choose. The fundamental loss of a desire for God is at the heart of original sin. The lack of desire for the things of God renders us morally unable to choose the good in the name of our Lord. When we say a person is spiritually dead, means that he loses the moral ability towards God. He is separated from God. He needs to be born again of the Spirit in order to have a relationship with God, and a true love for Christ. Peace.
---Mark_V. on 3/14/11


Paul, first of all, man is not dealt with as toasters. Everyone lost has a natural ability. Everyone can choose right or wrong, if they couldn't, God could not judge them. All are judge by their actions. What the lost lack, is the ability to do good in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, a moral ability. Unless the person is born again of the Spirit, he cannot do anything good in the name of the Jesus Christ. Everything he does without faith is sin. Even the good he does without faith, is sin, it does not honor or thank God. And faith comes by hearing the Word of God. Lost man does not possess this saving faith. When God sends His Spirit to regenerate a person, God imparts in him with new motives and desires towards God, whom he once hated.
---Mark_V. on 3/14/11


the religious brand that wants people to believe mankind has no free will does so for control over people and this cult does not want its people to think for themselves

understanding BASIC scripture is imperative and clearly The Father in Heaven ways are greater than mans ways and ideas ABOUT Him

a thinking person would certainly question judgment if they were following some religious theory that DIRECTLY CONTRADICTS God giving free will to mankind

mankind is NOT Gods puppets only religious brands want to control people and have people believe THEIR lying theories OVER Gods plain TRUTH
---Rhonda on 3/13/11


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It is common sense to know/realize that God (I am who I am) wants us to be able to RELATE TO HIM and to also IDENTIFY WITH HIM. This is His WILL/DESIRE, but virtually all believers will only do and be "good" when COMMANDED TO (please prove me wrong and make a fool out of me).

Virtually all believers use their FREE WILL not to CARE about HIS WILL, but I personally have made the choice to care about His desires, wants, likes and dislikes.

The point is that it is NOT...
...MY WILL versus His will.

HIS WILL is that I be happy and I be just...MY will is the same, we are INTEGRAL (I in Him and He in me). There IS NO CONFLICT.
---more_excellent_way on 3/12/11


Either God gave man free will to obey or disobey, or God is the author of sin.

We have many verses to prove God IS NOT the author of SIN, and that MAN is drawn away by HIS OWN lusts and desires.

Man was created ABOVE the animals. God put in man a SOUL and this is where our will, conscience and heart are.

Did our spirit die when Adam sinned, or did our soul die, leaving us with no conscience, heart, emotions, intellect, etc.

We know the soul never dies...either spending eternity in heaven or hell.

God's Spirit in us puts us back into fellowship with God, empowering us to do HIS WILL. We're not given a NEW SOUL, but a renewed soul, our conscience PURGED(cleansed) by the blood of Christ to do HIS WILL.
---kathr4453 on 3/13/11


Christian

I have no doubt God can MAKE us do whatsoever He wishes for after all He is all powerful.

But will He is the question?

If we have no free will then what sins were you referring to by which we will be judged?

For instance God says it NOT HIS WILL for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

Now we know that's His will but how often does that actually happen.

Man has freedom to move about freely with the understanding that he will give an account one day.

God Bless, Paul
---paul on 3/13/11


Paul, it would appear that God made us in such a way so as to assure that we would botch things up. From the get-go Adam and Eve botched things up. And humans have been botching things up ever since. It's built into us! :-)
---John.usa on 3/12/11


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You must be in torment, Christan.

That is not what that passage of scripture means. There are too many other scriptures that teach against your interpretation of that verse.

The Bible clearly teaches us that God does not lead men into sin nor does he take pleasure in it.
---Jasheradan on 3/12/11


Hi, Paul . . . that is very clear, that we are drawn away of our own lusts, when we sin, and God does not make us sin. So, why does a person sin? I'd say because of our own character. So, how am I truly free in my own will, if I can sin? If I have the character of God's love and His freedom, I will freely choose not to sin, I'd say.

So, if I have wrong character giving in to sinning, I need for God to make the difference so I become choosing of what is good. And He has me doing better, so often, than what I supposed I was choosing to do . . . if and while I am submitting to Him.
---Bill_willa6989 on 3/12/11


Paul, read Romans 9,

"What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."

"Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?"

"Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?"


Regardless, you'll still be held accountable for your sins.
---christan on 3/12/11


The ancient question......

Predestination or free will

I personally have no opinion, but I strongly suspect that the question has no meaning - if God created the world, then our 'free will' is designed by God, so it will do as God desires - given that we are always placed in situation God has already destined us to be in, thus our choice was alread know by God
---Peter on 3/12/11


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Precisely John. God doesnt need to be controlling because He sees our moves before we make them and knows how to counter them with his own.
---Jasheradan on 3/11/11


\\But since God is smarter than you are, he will always win the match. :-)
---John.usa on 3/11/11\\

Somehow, I thought that when I win, both God and I win.

It's not a zero sum mechanism.
---Cluny on 3/12/11


John

So you feel God is the author of all things and He always gets His way.

I agree that God has the last move (check mate) but I dont feel God always gets His way due to our ability to botch things up.

God Bless, Paul
---paul on 3/12/11


Greg

Were tempted and drawn away of our own lusts ( which begin in the mind) and when that lust has conceived (persuades) then it brings forth sin (action) and sin when it is finished brings forth death (eternal separation from God)

Which is freewill and choice which God nor orchestrated or initiated.
God Bless, Paul
---paul on 3/12/11


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paul, if we truly had no choice but to do God's will, there would be no need for FAITH. We would simply be robots. My toster has no need for faith. It is an inantimate object I plug into a current, without any mind of it's own. My toaster has no free will, and never will.

Now if my toaster doesn't work, I cannot punish the toaster. I would simply return it to the manufacturer, holding the manufacturer accountable for a faulty toaster.

Now, some would say the manufacturer spent billions making, on purpose, faulty toasters, just to throw in a land fill because he felt like it, to feel GOOD about himself. It just gave him pleasure to do so. Did the toasters care??? Can an inantimate object FEEL and think?
---kathr4453 on 3/12/11


Look at life as a cosmic chess game. You are absolutely free to make whatever moves you choose. But since God is smarter than you are, he will always win the match. :-)
---John.usa on 3/11/11


Bill

I agree that Gods judgment is far different than ours.

Most people don't know the difference between fair and just.


But my main thought is this, Ive heard people say that God wills everything in our lives and we as His children have no say towards what happens.

Heres the breakdown in my mind
If God is controlling every aspect of ones life as to the outcome, operations and events then what reason is their for a just God to punish people for what He has done in their lives.

I understand my perception of it which is we are given talents to tend to, knowing the Fathers will ,as we should, we will give an account of our stewardship.

Its the other mind set that is lost to me.
God Bless, Paul
---paul on 3/11/11


Your free will exist in your mind. The thoughts you have give you a chance to make a choice. Will I accept that thought and let it become part of me or do I reject it and let it disappear. This is the way God created us and it is the gift of freewill.
---Greg on 3/11/11


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How our free will fits in with God's sovereignty is a mystery (or paradox) we will never unravel this side of heaven.

And there, will we need to?

For now, this is one of the things implied by "We walk by faith and not by sight," for in heaven, we shall see "face to face."
---Cluny on 3/11/11


We have a choice: "And the woman said to the serpent, Of the fruit of the trees in the garden we may eat: But of the fruit of the tree, that in the middle of the garden, said God, see that you eat not, and see that you touch it not, else you die. And the woman saw, that it a good tree to eat of and a desire to the eyes and a desirous tree for to make one wise, and took of the fruit of it and ate, then brought to her husband also nearby her, and he ate. Be you all holy, for I Yhwh your God holy. I have set in front of you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both you and your seed may live. Choose you this day whom you will serve." Gn.3:2,3,6+ Lv.11:44,45+ 19:2+ Lv.20:7,26+ I Pt.1:16+ Dt.30:19+ Jos.24:15.
---Eloy on 3/11/11


Well, if you make a clay cup but it is cracked when it comes out of the kiln, you are going to judge it to be not fit for being used for drinking at a party, aren't you?

We ourselves, even, judge the things that we ourselves have made.

But I hope you can see that you are not just a clay something, but you have personal feelings and you do make choices. And I hope you do judge yourself and your choices.

I can assure you that God is evaluating by much better standards than you are. His judging is good and better than what we think is "fair".
---Bill_willa6989 on 3/11/11


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