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Explain 1 Thessalonians 4:13

What does I Thessalonians 4:13-17 mean?

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 ---Pastor_Herb on 3/13/11
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There are two distinct days in scripture. The Day of the Lord, also meaning the Day of His WRATH, and the Day of Christ, I believe means the rapture. I'm not waiting for the Day of the Lord...His wrath, however I am looking for the Day of Christ.

Paul was assuring the Thesselonians that THAT DAY, His WRATH was not yet, although they were suffering. They thought their suffering was His WRATH, and not the fellowship of His sufferings, that all Christians partake of.
---kathr4453 on 3/21/11


John if you are so concerned tell us what is keeping that man of sin from taking over now? Bet ya can't tell us.
Who is He John? Tell us oh learned one, lol.
---Elder
MICHAEL THE ARCHANGEL!

Daniel tells us(Daniel 12:1, 2) that Michael, the protector of Gods people, will arise to take his stand. Michaels call to action comes during the Great Tribulation, which is the time the Antichrist is revealed. Since we already know that the Antichrist will be revealed when Satan is unrestrained, so something takes place between Michael and Satan..
(Revelation 12:7-9).
And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon,
(hit125words)
SO NEXT READ Revelation 12:13-17).
---John on 3/21/11


Part 2:
who will rise up outside Christianity after the rapture. Yet the definite trend of the Bible's literal "Antichrist" passages clearly points to thing that are here now and which genuine Christians must face and overcome. Why then would other prophecies suddenly reverse this trend and apply to things which Christians will not face because they have been raptured? How about 2 Thess. 2:1-3, Paul says,
".....for that Day will not come (the Second Coming of Christ) unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition"
---Mark_V. on 3/21/11


Colossians 1:24-27. CLEARLY tell us by exact words what the Mystery is...

The MYSTERY IS CHRIST IN YOU...of which Gentiles are now partakers. It was never a mystery or hidden or kept secret that Gentiles would be saved. That was clearly told to Abraham, "In thee, all families of the earth will be blessed".

With that, I have always wonderred about Rev 10:7...teh Mystery of God is Complete...and in Colossians 2..teh same words, The Mystery of God...which is the Church. Judgement is one thing WRATH is another.

We are spared from wrath, but JUDGEMENT begins in the House of the Lord.

Rev 10:7 could very well allude to the rapture. I said COULD. And the Lord showed me this as well.





---kathr4453 on 3/21/11


It's the CHURCH, made up of both Jew and Gentile being ONE NEW MAN In Christ that was kept secret. The Mystery of God. Colossians 2 and three continue to say WE are no longer part of this world system, Hidden with God in Christ and when Christ WHO IS OUR LIFE appears we will appear with Him in Glory. does not contradict Thessalonians.

The 144,000 witneses on earth are Jews, not the Church. The reason they take over is because we are removed. Their message is the Gospel of the KINGDOM.

Rev 11, is a perfect place to begin preaching that Gospel. There cannot be two different gospels on earth at the same time.I lean towards mid-trib for those reasons.

Both sides have a good case. Let's be open and not dogmatic.
---kathr4453 on 3/21/11




The words "Antichrist" or "Antichrists" are all found only in two books. 1 John and 2 John. That is it. When we read the passages we find out that after an objective look, we do find out that nothing is mention about a Mr. Sin who shows up after we're gone. The Word of God describes not just one, but many antichrist. And according to 1 John 2:19, these many antichrist "went out from us" which means out from inside of the Christian Church. God's word does reveal other prophecies about the emergence of an evil "little horn" (Dan. 7:8), a dreadful "beast" (Rev. 13:1), and "the man of sin" (2 Thess. 2:3). These passages are given to support the idea of a future Mr. Abominable
---Mark_V. on 3/21/11


Rom.16:25...according to the revelation of the mystery, which was KEPT SECRET since the world began,
---michael_e on 3/20/11

WHICH HAS NOTHING TO DO PRE-TRIB. NOTE HOW HERETICS ALWAYS PULL SCRIPTURE OUT OF CONTEXT.

Paul did NOT play games, but revealed the mystery. WHICH WAS THAT THE GENTILES WOULD ALSO RECIEVE SALVATION.

DAH!!!

HERE'S THE REST OF THE PASSAGE YOU OMITTED...

ROM16:26
"BUT NOW REVEALED and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all the Gentiles might come to salvation that comes from faith".
---John on 3/20/11


"For that day will NOT come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in Gods temple, proclaiming himself to be God."
John
John if you are so concerned tell us what is keeping that man of sin from taking over now? Bet ya can't tell us.
(hint: He that letteth will let until He be taken out of the way. II Thess 2:3-7.) Who is He John? Tell us oh learned one, lol.
---Elder on 3/20/11


//What does I Thessalonians 4:13-17 mean?//
This is that
Rom.16:25...according to the revelation of the mystery, which was KEPT SECRET since the world began, 26But NOW is made manifest..
So you can't find it in the OT or Matt-Jn
Acts 3:21... which God hath SPOKEN by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
---michael_e on 3/20/11


kathr4453, I had not noticed markv's post. It is apparent that he is confused about the 70 week prophecy, and the use of the word "week, day, hour" and so forth.
These issues are not something that someone can just sit and get from "someone's" book. I have read the Revelation over 200 times, studied and taught it scores of times and completed word meanings/studies even more.
It takes hard work to understand some of these things.
If anyone would understand the prophecy of Dan 12:9-13 they would see 2625 days that equal 7 years. Be sure to study Dan 9:24-27. Jesus was crucified in the 62nd week of this prophecy, v26. Verse 27 refers to anti-christ and the one week to the 70th week/Tribulation.
---Elder on 3/20/11




2 Thessalonians 2

"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ AND OUR BEING GATHERED TO HIM, we ask you, brothers and sisters, not to become easily DECEIVED...

DON'T LET ANYONE DECIEVE YOU IN ANY WAY (i.e Elder/Herb)! For that day will NOT come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in Gods temple, proclaiming himself to be God."

---John on 3/20/11


The Church will go through the tribulation,

REVELATION 7:13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come From?
REVELATION 7:14 And I said to him Sir, you know.
So he said to me, These are the ones WHO COME OUT of the Great Tribulation,And washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb.

Now the May 21 people got the Great tribulation Going 23 years, From 1988 to 2011 - you can go on line and get the info on how they mathematically came up with that.
---RICHARDC on 3/20/11


\\On 3/19 he wrote about Rev 7:3 trying to make you think the church will go through the Tribulation.\\

If he was trying to say that, he was right for a change.

The church WILL go through the Tribulation.

There's no such thing as a pre-trib rapture.
---Cluny on 3/20/11


Bro. Herb, if you look for the seven year tribulation anywhere in Scripture you will not find it. The truth is, from Gen. to Rev. there is no exact passage that specifically mentions a seven-year period of tribulation at all. The entire theory is really based on a rather speculative interpretation of two little words, in one single verse, the text in Daniel 9:27 and the two words are "one week"
Here is the verse:
"And he shall confirm "the covenant" with many for "one week," and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease.. Daniel 9:27. A lot has been made from this verse.

---Mark_V. on 3/19/11

Elder, Is markV's comment as destructive as John's?
---kathr4453 on 3/20/11


Elder, the reason I ask is I believe in fair and balanced calling out of false doctrine ( having no respect of persons here), I see you have never addressed MarkV's belief that there is no such thing as the 7 years to begin with. THAT Elder I find more deceiptful and deceiving than anything John has said.

Is it because you both believe in eternal securiity that you wll never rebuke MarkV on this subject, he has posted and stated many times here on line.

And I too wonder why MarkV never attacks you or your comments that are contrary to his, as he does with everyone else.

---kathr4453 on 3/20/11


Herb and other readers, do you see what John is doing? He is spreading false hoods and trying to use parts of Scripture to do it.
On 3/19 he wrote about Rev 7:3 trying to make you think the church will go through the Tribulation.
Read Rev 7:4 to see who these people are that he spoke about.
They are the 144,000!! They get saved during the Tribulation!
The 1st seal is broken in 6:1. The 144,00 don't come into play until after the 6th seal is broken. This is proof that the Tribulation has started by 7:3-4.
The Bible teaches the church age saints are already sealed until the day of redemption by the Holy Spirit Eph 4:30.
John is pushing the typical JW damnable doctrine.
Don't fall for his continued deception.
---Elder on 3/19/11


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This passage speaks of the rapture. lit.Gk: "For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we which remain alive up to the coming of the Lord will not precede them which are dead. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, and with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first: then we which are remaining alive will be raptured up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so will we always be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words." I Thes.4:15-18.
---Eloy on 3/19/11


Alan and Bob you both are WRONG! and its not your views that count but what God says in his word, and as to being judgmental Bob isn't that like the kettle calling the pot black? Folks read the Bible and don't listen to most you hear on here, cause for the most part it is like a soap opera with a little of the word thrown in here and there.
---Lea on 3/19/11


If WRATH is only for the wicked, Then How can Christians be on earth when God poures out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth? (REV 16:1)
---Pastor_Herb on 3/19/11

HERE'S YOUR ANSWER...

Referred to as "The Mid-Tribulation Interlude" or pause.

Rev7:3-17
(125Ltd, so read the rest)

Verse3..
"Do not harm the Earth or the Sea or the Trees until we have SEALED the bond servants of our G-d on their foreheads".

After REV 7 it gets UGLY, and VERY DEADLY until the old Earth and Heavens along with ALL the Wicked(Dead/Alive) are burned!
---John on 3/19/11


Lea ... Bob is quite right.

There are lots of people who know they are right, and yet they hold different views, sometimes mildly disagreeing, and sometimes in total opposition.

So they need to be allowed to state their views, and hopefully learn form the discussion.

Of course that does not apply to me, because I know that I am always 100% right!!
---alan8566_of_uk on 3/19/11


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Lea, please don't be judgmental. There is enough of that going on already. Discussing Scripture with other brothers and sisters should be encouraged. Some can learn from others.
I see too much throwing of dirt at each other already. If you have something that can edify someone use it. Help everyone
---Bob on 3/19/11


Matthew 7:6
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Elder and Pastor Herb there are some here that argue even when they know you are right. They need to pray for wisdom but first some need the infilling of the Holy Spirit. Don't waste your time on this, its drama that makes them feel powerful.
---Lea on 3/19/11


WHY???
Because tribulation is for believers ONLY!

WRATH is for the wicked and in the second coming of Christ he will gather up his elect (Dead/Alive) then burn the earth and its remaining inhabitants(Dead/Alive) in Wrath.

We will be "spared that hour" and that Wrath if indeed you are a Christian.
---John on 3/19/11

Please show me where in the bible that tribulation is for believers only.

If WRATH is only for the wicked, Then How can Christians be on earth when God poures out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth? (REV 16:1)
---Pastor_Herb on 3/19/11


So when God judges the earth this time why wouldn't He take out his bride?
---Pastor_Herb

HE ABSOLUTELY WILL! In the second coming/resurrection.

The problem is you confuse Tribulation with Wrath.

Tribulation comes from the word Tribul. It's a sled with rocks that separates the Wheat from the Chaff. Thus the symbolism.

All believers throughout history have gone through tribulation.

WHY???
Because tribulation is for believers ONLY!

WRATH is for the wicked and in the second coming of Christ he will gather up his elect (Dead/Alive) then burn the earth and its remaining inhabitants(Dead/Alive) in Wrath.

We will be "spared that hour" and that Wrath if indeed you are a Christian.
---John on 3/19/11


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Bro. Herb, if you look for the seven year tribulation anywhere in Scripture you will not find it. The truth is, from Gen. to Rev. there is no exact passage that specifically mentions a seven-year period of tribulation at all. The entire theory is really based on a rather speculative interpretation of two little words, in one single verse, the text in Daniel 9:27 and the two words are "one week"
Here is the verse:
"And he shall confirm "the covenant" with many for "one week," and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease.. Daniel 9:27. A lot has been made from this verse.
---Mark_V. on 3/19/11


Herb 2: Hal Lindsy in the book "the late Great Planet Earth" says "the Antichrist breaks his covenant with the Jewish people, causes the Jewish temple worship, according to the law of Moses, to cease."
Rapture teachers say, Dan. 9:27 to mean'
1. The "he" in that verse is the Antichrist.
2. The "he" shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease. In the middle of the seven year tribulation, the Antichrist will break the covenant, turn against Israel, and stop animal sacrifices.
3. The phrase, "he shall cause the sacrifice ..to cease" is viewed as proof that a Jewish temple must be rebuilt on the Temple Mount.
All this by two words "one week."
---Mark_V. on 3/19/11


1Cor 15:21...by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22... in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 BUT EVERY MAN IN HIS OWN ORDER: Christ the firstfruits,( Matt 27:52 And the graves were opened, and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,53 and came out of the graves after HIS RESURRECTION, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.)
afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.(1 Thess 4:13-17 the resurrection of the body of Christ)
---michael_e on 3/18/11


The clearest picture in scripture and the plainest of words spoken concerning the resurrection of the dead is found in I Thessalonians 4:13-17, and Romans chapter 15. These verses speak of Christ coming back at the end of time to take his ransomed people home.
Christ himself spoke of "the" resurrection, not plural.
---trey on 3/18/11


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\\You again have shown that you know very little about the Ministry of the Holy Spirit.\\

You actually think that you do?
---Cluny on 3/18/11


I think the real point is wheather or not the church will have to go through the Great tribulation. When God Judged the earth with the flood, He spared Noah and his family from the Judgement. When God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, He removed Lot's family to safety. So when God judges the earth this time why wouldn't He take out his bride?
---Pastor_Herb on 3/18/11


John thank you for proving my point so elegantly. You again have shown that you know very little about the Ministry of the Holy Spirit. (PS you learn about Him from studying the Word of God.)
Trying to be intellectual in side-stepping is another downfall for you. It doesn't work. Ya ain't got the gas to "git" there! (LOL)
---Elder on 3/18/11


Pastor Herb, I really respect what you have to say. But in this topic I believe too much is made of one statement. Dan. 9:27. So much is debated because of this one passage and two words "one week" according to many Daniel 9:27 is applied to a future antichrist, a future peace treaty made with Israel, a future seven year tribulation, and a future rebuild Jewish Temple inside Jerusalem. And all this will supposedly start with the Rapture. I believe there is a lot to interpret from that one passage, don't you think? Especially when Daniel 9:27 says absolutely nothing about any seven-year tribulation, Antichrist, or rebuilding Jewish Temple. This is where all of this begin, don't you think?
---Mark_V. on 3/18/11


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Actually it was ALF.

However, the same ludicrous thinking that has applications in both the UFO/Alien arena also does in the Pre-Trib arena.

A notion you continue to attempt to prove without a single verse in scripture to back you up. By rather using vaguelarities concerning the Holy Spirit since you lost the factual argument. Then you pretend to be HS inspire by some pseudo mystery/s that other lesser beings of course cannot apprehend.

HOGWASH!

Generally when Heretics are confronted with the truth and are exposed. They use numerous Holy Spirit vague mysteries overtones of the Self Anointed Phony.

This you have posted in order to avoid the facts of your losing argument
---John on 3/18/11


I don't believe it is right for some to accuse others of not having the Holy Spirit. But I do believe the passage in I Peter 4:17 is not speaking of the Judgment Day but the purging, chastening, and purifying of the church by the loving hand of God. And many times it is very painful. For it is far better and more important to kingdom work to endure suffering as the Lord purges and strengthens the church, than to the endure the eternal suffering of the unbeliever in the lake of fire. And if God so strongly and painfully judges His church which He loves, what will be His fury and wrath on the ungodly?
---Mark_V. on 3/18/11


"Tell me Elder was ELF a real alien? I think he was too. John on 3/17/11
Watch it John everyone is seeing your spirituality.
Notice I didn't say any of those things. But, I really do think you believe
what you said above.
I am sorry it normally takes me longer to expose people like you. (But.... you are easy.... Thanks)
I notice you really did side-step my questions. Just like I figured you would.
Be honest now... don't ya just love me? (You can answer that question. I aint scared.)
---Elder on 3/17/11


Opps!! My mistake, it was the UN and not the White House apointing an alien ambassador.

If an alien ever says take me to your leader, where would you take them?

Pretty soon the answer will be a Malaysian astrophysicist named Mazlan Othman, who's expected to be appointed as the United Nations space ambassador for extraterrestrial contact affairs. That gives her the right to make the first official response to any travelling aliens.Story
Written by Mark Brown
Edited by Duncan Geere
---Pastor_Herb on 3/17/11


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John we ignore you a lot because like now it is apparent that you understand very little about the Holy Spirit
(Elder/Herb)

You're right! It's very difficult to argue with INTELLIGENT statements such as...

"They were abducted by aliens. The white house has appointed an alien ambassador to greet aliens from outer space."

SO LET'S DISCUSS AT YOUR LEVEL...

In Mork and Mindy. Mork was a real alien disguise as Robyn Williams ( It's a Government cover up!)

Tell me Elder was ELF a real alien? I think he was too. They're just not telling us! I believe the stuff ELF toys are real aliens and are taking over our childrens minds for the final Pre-Trib conquest of humans.

How about that Barney! Hmmm???
---John on 3/17/11


1) We are to witness until the coming of Christ?

OR>>>

2) We are to witness until 7-years before the coming of Christ.

ALSO>>>

If The Holy Spirit is removed after the "Secret Rapture" of 865 Million People that nobody will notice.

How do people get saved?
---John on 3/16/11


ANSWER:
1 and 2. We are the witness till the tribulation after that the 144 thousand plus 2.

3. They will get saved like they did in old testament times still by faith. People will notice people missing, but God will send a strong delusion that they will believe a lie. They were abducted by aliens. The white house has appointed an alien ambassador to greet aliens from outer space. So you tell me.
---Pastor_Herb on 3/17/11


John we ignore you a lot because like now it is apparent that you understand very little about the ministry of the Holy Spirit. Is the ministry of the Holy Spirit the same as it was in the Old Testament as it is in the New or the Tribulation? (Hint: The answer is no.)
Then do people who have died and gone on still adhere to the Great commission? (Hint: The answer is no again.)
It is the Holy Spirit that convicts of sin. He always has and always will. Do you understand how?
Do you yet see your lack? When our work on earth is done it is done!
It is God who provides the witness not man.
Now you answer some of my questions... or side-step like you normally do.
---Elder on 3/17/11


//James L Do you think Old Testament saints won't be resurrected? That seems to be what you're saying//
In their time.
//I am in Matthew 28:19:
"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations"//
Then you must be in Matt. 28:16.
---michael_e on 3/17/11


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\\1 Thess 4:13-17 was spoken by Paul by revelation from the ascended Christ to the Church the body of Christ\\
---michael_e on 3/16/11

Do you think Old Testament saints won't be resurrected? That seems to be what you're saying.

\\I am not in these verses are you?
Matt. 10:5...Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
Matt.15:24...I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.\\

NO, I am not in those verses, but I am in Matthew 28:19:
"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations"

Jesus was sent only to Israel. He kept His disciples from Gentiles until after His resurrection. And even then, Jews first, then Gentiles (Rom 1:16)
---James_L on 3/16/11


michael e,
Acts 10:34-43 (Peter):
God is not one to show partiality...in every nation the man...is welcome to Him...the word which He sent to the sons of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ...they put Him to death...God raised Him up on the third day...He ordered us to preach to the people...everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins

Acts 13:46 (Paul):
It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you (Jews) first...now we are turning to the Gentiles

Acts 11:17 (by Peter)
If God gave them (Gentiles) The Same Gift as He gave us Jews) after believing in the Lord

15:11 (by Peter)
we believe we (Jews) are saved...In The Same Way they (Gentiles) also are
---James_L on 3/16/11


Still waiting on your answer for the Great Commision Elder? (or Herb could try)

IS IT...

1) We are to witness until the coming of Christ?

OR>>>

2) We are to witness until 7-years before the coming of Christ.

ALSO>>>

If The Holy Spirit is removed after the "Secret Rapture" of 865 Million People that nobody will notice.

How do people get saved?
---John on 3/16/11


"(1Pe 4:17) "For the time is come that JUDGMENT MUST BEGIN at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?""
Lutherist
Please sir. This verse is not about the Tribulation, Rapture or 2nd Coming.
It is about the christian life style in a wicked world v1-19. Read v4-,7-11, 14-16.
This is about a christian living godly in spite of everthing else.
You might want to consider that this whole book is about sanctification and obedience. Christians should judge/correct themselves so they won't be judged.
---Elder on 3/16/11


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only those of us that truly belong to God and are filled with his Holy Spirit understand the Bible. And i agree with you Herb and i always have since i became a Christian 21 yrs ago, but ignorance is bliss and many shall be here on earth for the great tribulation because they believe what they have been taught by mankind, me i'm led by God and i have heard many Pastors say the same thing that we will go through the tribulation. We all shall see and soon very soon !
---Lea on 3/16/11


James L //Those things were not written to you. Where is your name in there?//
Rom. 11:13, 12:5 Eph 3:1-6 just to name a few.

I am not in these verses are you?
Matt. 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
Matt.15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Rom 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
---michael_e on 3/16/11


I Thess 4:13-17 can't be found in prophecy.
Matt 24 was spoken by the Lord Himself to the 12 as representatives of Israel, that are to sit on the twelve thrones.
1 Thess 4:13-17 was spoken by Paul by revelation from the ascended Christ to the Church the body of Christ
---michael_e on 3/16/11


PRE-TRIB RAPTURE IS A HERESY!!!

It was started (19th century) by a Witch named Margaret McDonald(Google it)passed to John Darby then to John Scoffield who brought it to America.

TRIBULATION IS FOR BELIEVERS! WRATH IS FOR THE WICKED! All believers have gone through tribulation. Why would G-d give "YOU" a pass??? It comes from the word Tribul. A sled use to seperate the Wheat from the Chaff. A testing of faith.

NOW HEAR WHAT JESUS SAID...

MATT 24:29-31.."AFTER the tribulation"
JOHN 17:15 "Do NOT take them out of the world..
JOHN 6:39-40,44,54 "On the LAST day"
JOHN 11:24 "on the LAST day"
JOHN 12:48 "on the LAST day"
DAN 12:1-3

CASE CLOSED!!!
---John on 3/16/11


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Pastor Herb:

Rather a HARSH statement for someone who calls himself a PASTOR. Thank God my salvation is based on my faith in Christ... NOT on whether or not I agree with you!.

By the way... If you believe that you are a member of the Philadelphian church... you better get to TURKEY. That's where it was.
---Lutherist on 3/16/11


\\ as for me I am going in the rapture. \\

If you think that, Pastor Herb, you will be among the first to fall down and worship Antichrist.

I know what you're thinking.

"I've said the sinner's prayer. Once saved, always saved, and I'm going up in the rapture. I'm fixed for time and eternity. I've got peace and safety."

But God's word says that when you say "Peace and safety," sudden destruction will come upon you, and you will NOT escape!

1 Thessalonians 5:3
---Cluny on 3/16/11


\\Rom 16:25...

\\Eph 2:1...

\\Col.1:13...

\\1Thess 4 14...\\
---michael_e on 3/16/11

michael,
Romans was written to people who live in Rome.

Ephesians was written to people who live in Ephesus

Colossians was written to people who live in Colossae

1Thessalonians was written to people who live in Thessalonica

Why look for doctrine in things which were written to people in Rome, Ephesus, Colossae, Corinth, Philippi, etc.

Those things were not written to you. Where is your name in there?

Remember - that's your rule, not mine.

Only those things written to you specifically have any bearing on you for faith and practice
---James_L on 3/16/11


\\One of the many objections to the pre-rapture taking place is the belief, shared by most people, that they must pay for their sins. \\

It is true that we cannot pay for our sins. That's why there's Jesus.

However, this is NOT why Christians will go through the Tribulation.

Read the parable of the Wheat and Tares in Matthew 13. The wheat is not gathered up 7 days (or 1007 days) before the Harvest, is it?

No, the TARES are gathered up first.

And consider the parable of the Dragnet in the same chapter.

It's the BAD fish that go sailing through the air, not the good fish.
---Cluny on 3/16/11


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Lutherist

The verse you used has nothing to do with the judgement of the tribulation.

However you make your preperations to stay here if you want, as for me I am going in the rapture. Sorry God's judgement will be poured out on you and the rest of the sinful world.

I shall pray for you.

Rev 3:10 tells me I won't have to go through the great tribulation.
---Pastor_Herb on 3/16/11


//Unless you live in Corinth, please stop hanging on something that was clearly not written to you.
---James_L on 3/15/11/
law and grace don't mix
(2Tim 2:15 rightly divide)
You do of course know Paul writes to the believer, the body of Christ?
Just a few references
Rom 16:25Now to him that is of power to stablish YOU according to my gospel,
Eph 2:1 And YOU hath he quickened...
Col.1:13 Who hath delivered US from the power of darkness, and hath translated US into the kingdom of his dear Son:

1Thess 4 14 For if WE believe that Jesus died and rose again 15 ... that WE which are alive and remain ..
17Then WE which are alive ..
---michael_e on 3/16/11


\\James L, who was Jesus speaking to?\\
---michael_e on 3/15/11

michael e,
I was simply trying to show that in Matt 25 the meaning of the word "apantesis" is shown clearly in the text itself. That is, after all, the word used in 1Thess 4.

But, since you insist on dicing up every instance of someone specific being spoken to, I have to ask you:

Do you live in Corinth? You keep quoting Paul's gospel in chapter 15, but as far as I can tell, it doesn't apply to you because he clearly mentioned who he was writing to in 1:2

"to the church of God which is at Corinth"

Unless you live in Corinth, please stop hanging on something that was clearly not written to you.
---James_L on 3/15/11


Pastor Herb:

You keep stating the same thing, as if you had actual scriptural proof...

You continue to declare that Christians will not go through the great tribulation or God's judgment. Perhaps you should give the Apostle Paul a call... Because, he says that God's Judgment will actually BEGIN with the House of God.

(1Pe 4:17) "For the time is come that JUDGMENT MUST BEGIN at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?"
---Lutherist on 3/16/11


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One of the many objections to the pre-rapture taking place is the belief, shared by most people, that they must pay for their sins. You know sins committed since they received the Lord Jesus Christ. But for the Christian it is an impossibility that he will be judged are punished for any of his sins. The reason for this being that Jesus Christ has already been judged and punished for the Christian sins. So consider these facts.
---mima on 3/16/11


The rapture happens before the Great Tribulation and Jesus will not return to the earth till after the great tribulation. As Elder has said before, "will they meet Jesus in the air, get there horses and come right back to the earth" something like that.

When God judged the earth in the days of Noah, He took Noah out of the judgement waters. When He judged Sodom and Gomorrah He remove Lot. Lot did not go through the judgement fires. What makes you think the Church will go through the tribulation?
---Pastor_Herb on 3/15/11


James L, who was Jesus speaking to?

Matt24 1And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and HIS DISCIPLES(The 12) came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple

//Matt. 25:6 "Behold, the bridegroom, come out to "meeting" (apantesin) him"//

Matt 26 1And it came to pass, when Jesus had finished all these sayings, he said unto HIS DISCIPLES(The 12),
---michael_e on 3/15/11


(1 Thes 4:13-17) Is describing our BODILY resurection and rapture.

"Asleep" is a Christian metaphore of being "Dead". While that persons's body remains in the grave, his spirit has immediately gone on to be with the Lord. "My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better."(Phil 1:23)

"Behold, I speak a mystery to you, we shall not all FALL ASLEEP, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in a glance of an eye, at the last trumpet. For a trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall all be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."(1 Cor 15:51-53)
---Lutherist on 3/14/11


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Rod4Him:

Noticed your name here...

The answer to your question as to (Daniel 12:12) is...

The significance of "How blessed is he who keeps waiting and attains to the 1335 days" is that Nebuchadnezzar destroyed the Temple and put an end to the regual sacrifice in 600 BC.

Add 1290 years to that and it is 690 AD, the year that the Dome of the Rock was finished (Establishing that the Dome of the Rock is the Abomination of Desolation standing in the holy place).

Add 1335 years to 600 BC, and that is 735 AD. The Mohammedian army was finally defeated at the battle of Tours in France in 735 AD. Those Christians who lived to see Islam's defeat were indeed blessed!
---Lutherist on 3/14/11


Saul wrote these letters to the Thessalonians to address a rumor that had been spread by heretics saying Jesus had already returned and had taken up the believers in Jerusalem. The Thessolonians had received letter as well stating that the Christians in Jerusalem had been "raptured" and that they were "left behind" (sounds familar?)

Saul wrote both of his letters to reassure them that this was pure heresy and he use scripture to prove and show the true sequence of events and how that and when the 2nd coming would occur.

The Thessalonians were relieved to find that the Second Coming would NOT occur until AFTER the man of Perdition and the tribulation have passed. (2nd Thess)

SIMPLE LETTERS FOLKS!
---John on 3/14/11


Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Who are these saints and why are they on Earth after the resurrection?
---micha9344 on 3/14/11


micael e,
I just told you where.

1Thess 4:16-17. It says we will "meet" (apantesis) Him in the air. Apantesis meant a caravan, so to speak, going out to meet someone to escort him into their city. The english word "meet" just doesn't quite get to what is being conveyed.

Matthew 25:6 "Behold, the bridegroom, come out to "meeting" (apantesin) him"

v10 "went in with him to the wedding feast"

The virgins came out to meet him, and escorted him in.

That's what will happen at His Coming (parousia). We will go out to meet him, and usher Him in.

It's just not properly conveyed in english
---James_L on 3/14/11


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\\---James_L on 3/14/11
can you find any scripture that says the body of Christ will meet Christ in the air to escort Him back to earth?
---michael_e on 3/14/11\\

1 Thess. 4:13-17.
---Cluny on 3/14/11


---James_L on 3/14/11
can you find any scripture that says the body of Christ will meet Christ in the air to escort Him back to earth?
---michael_e on 3/14/11


*BCV PLEASE
---michael_e on 3/14/11*

1Cor 15:23
The resurrection will be at His "coming" (parousia)

1Thess 4:16-17 He will descend with a trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first, then we will be caught up in the clouds to "meet" (apantesis) Him.

"parousia" was when someone of royalty came into a city. Apantesis was used of a party of the city's most prominent going out to usher in said royalty.

Revelation 20:4-5 "I saw the souls of those beheaded...and those who did not worship the beast...they reigned for a thousand years...this is the first resurrection"

The first resurrection includes those in the tribulation. They are raised before we meet Him in the clouds
---James_L on 3/14/11


After the scripture you have quoted, we have the next verse which says, "Therefore comfort one another with these words." (1 Thessalonians 4:18) So, this scripture means that God wants us to comfort one another about those Christians who have died . . . to comfort one another that they are not gone from us forever, but "God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus." So, they will be brought with Jesus. They have not gone forever with no hope of us being with them whom we have so loved. So, the main meaning is this love meaning, not just some doctrinal thing for divisions.
---Bill_willa6989 on 3/14/11


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It means that Jesus will return at the end of the Tribulation to gather His elect, both living and dead.

We meet Him in clouds to escort Him back to heaven and sit with his as judges for 1000 years.

AT the end of the 1000 years then we come down with jesus and the New jerusalem to live forever on earth.
---francis on 3/14/11


//We meet Him in clouds to escort Him back down to earth as He comes to judge.//

BCV PLEASE
---michael_e on 3/14/11


Yes the meeting in the air is the rapture. It is also the Second coming for it is the return of JESUS.

Remeber Matthew 25 where it talks about seeing JESUS as Lighting. All the wicked will look up and see him and wish to hide. All those who love him will go to be with JESUS.
---Samuel on 3/14/11


The Scripture does not mention or even teach "the rapture". However, Scripture specifically mentions that Christ will come the second time and that's when the world will end, Jesus prophesied it and Peter calls it the Day of the Lord (see Matthew 24:27-51 and 2 Peter 3:7-18).

So 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 speaks about God's elect who are alive then and those asleep will being taken to heaven (see Matthew 13:36-43) and the rest of mankind alive and dead will be judged and thrown into the Lake of Fire.

Christ clearly declared "My kingdom is not of this world." John 18:36 and you believe He's coming to rule for another thousand years on earth?
---christan on 3/14/11


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When the rapture occurs Jesus does not come down to earth. He comes in the clouds and we are lifted up (more quickly than it takes me to say this) to meet him in the air. Now after the tribulation and when Jerusalem is half lost to the enemy Jesus returns(and we who were raptured out before come with him) and touches down on Earth and wins the battle of Armageddon and defeats the Antichrist and begins his millennial rule.
---mima on 3/14/11


It means that believers should not sorrow at the death of a believing loved one as people would if they did not have any hope in Jesus Christ.
---Rod4Him on 3/14/11


It means that Jesus will return at the end of the Tribulation to gather His elect, both living and departed.

We meet Him in clouds to escort Him back down to earth as He comes to judge.

It doesn't mean He does a U-turn in mid-air. That's NOT what "descend" means.
---Cluny on 3/14/11


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