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Are There Sinless People

Are there sinless people walking among us? How did they get to be sinless? Please give Scripture.

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 ---Mark_V. on 3/15/11
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No.
God exposes darkness with His light.1Jn1(all)
7But[If]we walk in the light,as he is in the light,we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves,and the truth is not in us.

We were formed to function as He does.Gen 1:26
And--[IF] we believe HIS WORD and Follow--we Walk in agreement-with Him and HIS Word--In Spirit.

The Only Exact Expressed Image of God is-His Word-In Flesh.Col 1(all) 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

We are formed to function like Him--but-transformed pure--only By HIM-through HIM-In Spirit.[Repentance unto remission]

Holy Spirit-1Cor 2(all)
---char on 3/20/11


kathr
Its unfortunate you justify aggressiveness as boldness. And your post to me suggests a motivation of concern that your belief will be scrutinized.
But it is ok to explain your belief and if others do not agree then agree to disagree.

You said:
"Those who are Christ's have CRUCIFIED the Flesh"

Yes, the old man was crucified Rom6:6. Gal 2:20
We've "been made conformable to his death" Phil 3:10
"And if Christ be in you the body is dead.."Rom8:10
"As many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ" Gal 3:27.

I believe we have this NOW, by faith.


---Haz27 on 3/20/11


donna66, when I read the account of Paul at Mars Hill, witnessing to the Greeks, I see nothing about the Law of Moses mentioned. However I do see, according to the Gospel, Paul proclaiming the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

The one who left, having faith in Paul message, did not have to be tutored in the law of Moses first. Nor did Abraham.

Abraham was 400 years before the Law. Can you explain?

Paul in Romans 7 begin with JEWS. Romans 7..the Jews had to understand they were divorced from the law to be married to Christ. Gentiles never had to be divorced from the Law. And this is Paul's experience AFTER he got saved, not before. Before his conversion he considered himself blameless in ALL the law...Phil 3
---kathr4453 on 3/20/11


Haz27, I re-read my very first question here on this blog to you. I find nothing aggressive about it. I simply asked you a question.

I am offended you accuse me.

When you read Philippians 3, paul stated...he as not attained perfection but presses on.

Perfection here would mean sinlessness. We continue to press on until the Lord returns. As we continue to press on, we continue to suffer, being conformed to His image. Obviously many believe they are already totally conformed and have nothing to press on to or for.

Anyone who thinks their turkey timer has already popped out is deceived.

God isn't fiished with me yet...and here you are, perfect.

James 1...suffering leads to PERFECTION!!!
---kathr4453 on 3/20/11


markv, I disagree with your comment, "by their own prejudice". I believe we will see in Acts, Gentiles were forbidden to enter the temple, unless first circumcised. Before Christ death and resurrection, Jews were forbidden to even eat with Gentiles. Peter had a problem going to Cornelius, and so on. The reference kathr made was not after the death and resurrection of Christ Jesus, but before.

I too showed you in Ephesians Gentiles were without hope, aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and her covenants, but are now brought near by the blood of Christ. Gentiles were never under the Law of Moses, then or now.


I am pleased though you have changed your view to: ALL who believe, and not just a chosen few.
---James on 3/20/11




Craig, I do love everyone. Even you. I don't miss represent you in any way. I've never called you a liar, a deceiver, a heretic. Not once, yet, you are able to take aim at me when you can. I speak to you about the doctrines, never about you. I do that because I love you and want you to know the Truth. The gospel of your salvation. Why? Because if you have the wrong gospel, you have no gospel at all. Now, I give it to you, your reject it, and I am ok with that. You have a choice, but your will is not free, your answer will be made by your desire whether to listen or not. Since you think this bad about me, chances are you will not listen. But maybe one day you will from someone else.
---Mark_V. on 3/20/11


For God's moral laws (as summarized in the Ten Commandments and written on the hearts of all men, Rom. 2:15, was not abolished but subsumed in the New Covenant.
---Mark_V. on 3/20/11

MarkV: SO...the 4th commandment was from the beginning.

The sabbath was never abolished from the very beginning of time, but subsumed in the New Covenant. Really?

Did the New Covenant replaced the Covenant given to Abraham known as the everlasting covenant? Or did the New Covenant replace the Mosaec Covenant? Or both. Which one was done away in Christ? The Abrahamic Covenant, Eternal/Everlasting covenant, or the Mosaec Covenant???

Is the moral conscience within a covenant? Was that ever done away, even IN CHRIST???
---kathr4453 on 3/20/11


Kathr4453--

//Those who suffer WITH HIM....not just those who suffer.//

You have not yet explained what it means to "suffer with him".
And just because you write in CAPS, doesn't make it any more understandable. We are not deaf.
Are you saying that somehow the death to self that Christians must undergo, is comparable to Jesus sufferings? Or that when we die to self we understand His sufferings any better?

Dying to self is something Jesus never had to do. And though it is difficult for us, it's no where near the agony He suffered. Furthermore it is suffering we have brought upon ourselves. How does it help us identify with Christ? Jesus willingly suffered what He in no way deserved!
---Donna66 on 3/20/11


Wow, I can only wonder what you will think.
But it really does not matter. What you think.
Talk about being vague!

Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.


that every mouth may be stopped
and all the world may become guilty before God.

Can there be any finer rested then this?

I know! Go forth and preach the gospel.
And many believe this is what their doing.
---TheSeg on 3/19/11


Kath4453-- We don't need to be "tutored" in the law. The Bible says the law is our tutor! And Paul explains why. Rom 7:7.... Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. Most people in Western society ,not just Jews, are already aware of the 10 commandments...at least some of them... enough to recognize that according to that law, they are sinners. The Galation Christians already knew they had sinned before the judeizers came along. (Otherwise they would not have been Christians). The judeizers would have forced them conform to all Jewish traditions.
---Donna66 on 3/20/11




Haz27, maybe the word I believe I am is BOLD and not aggressive.


If by asking you a question, you refuse to answer over and over, because you don't have the answer yourself, I am asked to give you the answer in detail???

You need to ask God what scripture teaches, and if you are manifesting all that God says should be manifest in and through us. If this were being manifest through you, then you wouldn't be asking me to detail that truth. You would know that truth. and you would know through that truth you are not sinless!

I believe you are hoping to take that truth and explain it away, because you believe you are sinless.

I'm not going there!
---kathr4453 on 3/20/11


All humans suffer. But for the Christian, Rom 8:18...the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
---Donna66 on 3/18/11

donna66, Are unsaved people (who certainly suffer) experiencing the SUFFERINGS OF CHRIST? Are their sufferings caused by their identification with Christ unto death?

Are many professing christianity saying I am rich and in need of nothing, all the while blind and naked.

Those who suffer WITH HIM....not just those who suffer. And the unsaved world who also suffer, will not share in the Glory that is to follow.

Those who are Christ's have CRUCIFIED the Flesh... Gal 5...OUCH!
---kathr4453 on 3/20/11


James, the middle wall of separation, alludes to a wall in the temple that partitioned off the Court of the Gentiles from the areas accessible only to Jews. Paul referred to that wall as symbolic of the social, religious, and spiritual separation that kept Jews and Gentile apart. This was by their own prejudice. When Jesus "abolished in His flesh the enmity" through His death they became "one" the Church. For God's moral laws (as summarized in the Ten Commandments and written on the hearts of all men, Rom. 2:15, was not abolished but subsumed in the New Covenant. That's the wall referred to. God's grace for salvation has been for all people from the very beginning, for anyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
---Mark_V. on 3/20/11


Kath4453--- Why do you shout:YES DONNA66, MANY PROFESSING CHRISTIANITY ARE REBUKED IN REV 3). I never said anything contrary to that...in fact, I can't think of anything I said that even relates to that. Again, I don't understand the point you are trying to make.
---Donna66 on 3/19/11


kathr
Well, having re-read you posts here I still struggle to understand your beliefs about "suffering of Christ" we are sharing in.

Either you have an abrasive impatient style of communicating or its a tactic of aggressive bluff, but either way it doesn't work. By the way "truth" is not aggressive so if you claim your belief is truth, please share it patiently.

Can you calmly explain in detail, including chapter AND verse, your belief on the sufferings of Christ that we share in?



---Haz27 on 3/19/11


In his letter to the Ephesians, Paul, employing graphic imagery, indicated that the Mosaic law constituted a middle wall of partition that separated the Jews from the Gentiles (Eph. 2:14). The figure suggests a barrier that creates a distinction between two parties. Clearly, that vivid symbolism underscored the fact that the Hebrews and the Gentiles were not under identical religious systems.

Ephesians also state that Gentiles were aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, having no hope. Now will I be told I don't use scripture because I stated "in Ephesians"? Or am I assuming you have read Ephesians, know God's word, and know exactly what verse I am referring to? Stop playing games. Grow up.
---James on 3/19/11


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Mark, anyone who has been on Christianet for even a few months knows your approach. You lie about the things bloggers have said by constantly twisting their words to make them look less credible. You must be a defense lawyer.

If you LOVE everyone here the way you say you do, then listen to their words and stop painting them to be someone they arent.
---CraigA on 3/19/11


The same with the Covenant given to Moses, she says it was only for Israel, of course it was, all gentiles were condemned already by the curse of Adam's sin, just like Israel was. ---Mark_V. on 3/18/11


Let's revisit your comment MarkV...OF COARSE IT WAS. What are you saying, of coarse it was given to Israel only including the sabath rest, or also given to Gentiles, including the sabbath rest?

WOW that should open a can of worms.

Were Gentiles under the 7th day sabath rest too? A covenant given to Israel, along with circumcision? So God telling Israel to separate themselves from gentiles was for what reason????

NOW YOU SHOW SCRIPTURE SIR! Prove it!
---kathr4453 on 3/19/11


James, I don't know where you came from, but I will answer your question, When Kathr says, Galatians, she does not give the passages. Galatians speaks of many things. Context is important. When I answered about the Covenant given to Israel, I did not say, it was only for Israel because it was also for the Gentiles. Romans 15:5-12. Which does show that Paul was saying that God's plan has always been to bring Jew and Gentile alike into His kingdom by quoting from Deut, 32:43, Ps. 117:1, and Is. 11:10. A careful study with Scripture will show the correct teachings.

I don't hate Kathr, in fact I love her and to this day, she is the worst person to answer anyone. You agree with her, the reason you don't get her wrath from time to time.
---Mark_V. on 3/19/11


1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Joh 8:11 .... go, and sin no more.
---jerry6593 on 3/19/11


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Then you give 1 Peter 4:1 does not say what you think it says. The perfect tense of the verb emphasizes a permanent eternal condition from sin. Suffering unjustly to death as Christ and Peter did. Death means the complete and final end of all sin.
---Mark_V. on 3/19/11


MarkV, you believe 1 Peter 4 WRONG!
It's about NOW, not later. You may want to start in chapter 3 and continue reading THROUGH 4 to get a better understanding.

Our suffering HERE AND NOW is worth more than Gold, as we are tried by FIRE,(also reference Rev 3...(buy of me gold tried in the fire)((YES DONNA66, MANY PROFESSING CHRISTIANITY ARE REBUKED IN REV 3) and those who are suffering NOW, the Glory of Christ rest upon them.
---kathr4453 on 3/19/11


Haz27, Paul said in Galatians..the law was OUR TUTOR...meaning the JEWS. Galatians is writen AFTER christian jews went in and tried to put Gentiles under the law. Was the Law a tutor that brought Abraham to Christ? NO! Can anyone come to Christ without being Tutored in the Law first...gee I hope so.

Faith is instant...however the Law would take months even years to first be tutored in, before anyone could be brought to Christ.

And no Donna66, no one is sinless as Haz27 wants to teach. The fact we ARE suffering proves that fact. Haz27 found that truth aggressive. Hummm.

That was my point no one seemed to grasp. We certainly won't be suffering in heaven after we are Glorified.
---kathr4453 on 3/19/11


markv, In reading your latest comments to haz27, you said kathr gives no scripture to support suffering. I see numerous references to scripture. You also said the same with the covenant given to Moses. That covenent given to Israel, and then agree it was in fact given only to Israel.

Markv, when you lie, you lose credibility with others. We all know you hate kathr and will slander her at every opportunity. Why would you do that and make yourself look schitz at the same time.

You aren't hurting her, but yourself. Please stop this back stabbing. Make your point without bringing non-essential comments along with them.

We are all getting tired of your approach. Grow up.
---james on 3/19/11


Haz, you finally admitted only Christ was sinless. At least that is a start. Then you give Rom. 3:19, suggesting because you are not under the law, the sin you commit is not call sin anymore. Sin is still sin. You are not under that condemnation of the law, but it does not suggest you don't sin, Christ died for you in keeping the law, and you will never be condemned for breaking the law but you will still commit sin, no matter what you call yourself. Then you give 1 Peter 4:1 does not say what you think it says. The perfect tense of the verb emphasizes a permanent eternal condition from sin. Suffering unjustly to death as Christ and Peter did. Death means the complete and final end of all sin.
---Mark_V. on 3/19/11


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Kath4453 //Are you saying only a FEW christians experience this???//

No, I thought maybe you were!

Got the scripture references. But what do you mean by "GRACE and our life under Grace is suffering,for ALL saved by Grace"?. WITHOUT Grace my life had hopelessness and suffering-- and I was headed for even more. God's Grace brought only GOOD to me!
I've given up some things I thought were important to me...only to find they were worth nothing. I've "suffered" rejection by some...but my relationship with Jesus MORE than compensated. All humans suffer. But for the Christian, Rom 8:18...the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
---Donna66 on 3/18/11


kathr
You should know from your experience on CN how easy it is for discussion to escalate into aggression. We can all fall into this trap sometimes if not careful.

So far your, at times, aggressive posts, your boasts of secret knowledge of 1Pet4:1 whereas others merely have "head knowledge" is not helpful in understanding each other. Please consider an open and diplomatic approach.

Re your point about Galatians and law Gal 3:23 speaks of the law being our tutor to bring us to Christ. Are you saying the law was not our tutor bringing us to Christ?
---Haz27 on 3/18/11


Mark_Eaton
I see James4 differently. For example verse 4 clearly speaks to those in spiritual adultery.
Verse 7 onwards we see an evangelical message calling upon them to submit to God.

Verse 17 if sin is taken as "transgression of the law" this would be contrary to the gospel of grace.
But to do good is to believe on Jesus which is the sin that the world will be convicted of as John16:9 tells us.

Re 1John1:9,10 I see this speaking of sin of unbelief. Reading this chapter from beginning shows again an evangelical context declaring eternal life to those in darkness.

I am curious how you view 1John3:6-9 which contradicts your view of 1John1.
---Haz27 on 3/18/11


Mark_V
Thanks for your updated list on sin but I prefer God's definitions. God defined sin as transgression of the law, and we've been set free from it through Jesus's ONE OFFERING Heb 10.
What the law says it says to those UNDER IT Rom 3:19. So being judged in transgression of the law (sin) and its wages of death do not apply anymore as our old man was crucified.

But, I agree only Jesus was without sin. So I thank God that my old man is dead and my life is now hid with Christ.

1Pet4:1 "suffering in the flesh" speaks of when our old man is crucified with Christ. Then we have ceased from sin.
---Haz27 on 3/18/11


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Kathr never shows scripture to support the topic she is talking about, like suffering. Everyone suffers, the difference, suffering for Christ. She does not make that distinction. So it goes back and forth. The same with the Covenant given to Moses, she says it was only for Israel, of course it was, all gentiles were condemned already by the curse of Adam's sin, just like Israel was. They were sinners already without the written law to tell them they were, yet. "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against "all" ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them."
---Mark_V. on 3/18/11


Ro3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God,
1Jo1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
My answer is: No!
The Apostle Paul stated:
1Ti1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.
NOTE: He didn't say, "I used to be the chief."
---trey on 3/18/11


You make it sound as if you have great spiritual "maturity" because you are one of few who "know him and the fellowship of His sufferings"...but you never explain any further.
---Donna66 on 3/18/11


donna66,read allPhil 3, . Well, start chapter 2, where it says...keeping this mind in you that was also in Christ...

then read three..then read Gal 3 Paul asking those who went back under law...Have you SUFFERED so much in vain.

GRACE and our life under Grace is suffering,for ALL saved by Grace.

Are you saying only a FEW christians experience this???

PAUL SAID I die daily..ALWAYS CARRYING ABOUT IN OUR BODY THE DYING OF CHRIST SO THAT THE LIFE OF CHIRAT IS MANIFEST.
---kathr4453 on 3/18/11


Kathr4453 -- Was hoping for a little bit more specificity in answer to my question about suffering.

That I may KNOW Him and the fellowship of HIS SUFFERINGS ...Phil 3. You quote this verse often. But what IS the fellowship of HIS Sufferings? Are we to suffer WHAT He suffered? Are we to suffer to the EXTENT that he suffered? As often as He suffered? Accept suffering as He did?

You make it sound as if you have great spiritual "maturity" because you are one of few who "know him and the fellowship of His sufferings"...but you never explain any further.
---Donna66 on 3/18/11


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In fact, I don't know any normal non-Christian adults who claim never to have suffered! What kind and how much "suffering" qualifies one to be called a "Christian"?
---Donna66 on 3/18/11


donna66, what is a normal non christian? Those who suffer WITH HIM will be glorified together with Him. Romans 8....

That I may KNOW Him and the fellowship of HIS SUFFERINGS ...Phil 3

Don't have time to list all ,so it isn't the AMOUNT but the Fact that we do.
There are different kinds of suffering,even out of disobedience. So discern your suffering.

The whole world suffers of coarse,but not everyone is in the FELLOWSHIP of HIS SUGGERINGS, being conformed to His Image.
---kathr4453 on 3/18/11


donna66, How many christians do you talk to about suffering? Everyone you have come in contact with? And from that you say every person you have talked to that is a christian says they are in teh fellowship of His Sufferings???

Many WOF people will tell christians if they suffer is's because of sin, or if they are sick it's because of sin. etc....

So, with some doctrines, to suffer mean you are in sin...WRONG!
---kathr4453 on 3/18/11


kathr4453 //many who call themselves christians state they've never suffered.//

Really ? I've never met any that say this! (unless you ask them to compare their sufferings to those who were tortured or martyred). In fact, I don't know any normal non-Christian adults who claim never to have suffered! What kind and how much "suffering" qualifies one to be called a "Christian"?
---Donna66 on 3/18/11


Haz, you mentioned 1 Peter 4:1 thinking it means new believers becomes sinless with that passage. Read the context:
We should have the same mind, or way of thinking as Christ. That the believer can be triumphant in suffering even the suffering to death.
"he ceases from sin" here the perfect tense of the verb emphasizes a permanent eternal condition from sin. The worst that can happen to a believer suffering unjustly is death, and that is the best that can happen because death means the complete and final end of all sins. If the Christian is armed with the goal of being delivered from sin, and that goal is achieved through his death, the threat and experience of death is precious (Rom. 7:5, 18, 1 Cor. 1:21, 15:42,49 ).
---Mark_V. on 3/18/11


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If you read James 4 from the beginning you might see the context differs from how you interpreted sin in verse 17.
---Haz27 on 3/17/11

Brother, I have studied the entire book of James verse by verse using Greek word study and this verse means exactly as it reads. The immediate context of the verse is an answer to the question posed by James 4:1,

James 4:1 "What is the source of quarrels and conflicts among you? Is not the source your pleasures that wage war in your members?"

The source of their/our pleasures is sin, and everyone who knows to do right and does not do it, it is also sin because it is disobedience to the knowledge of God.
---Mark_Eaton on 3/18/11


Bro. Haz, I did not expect you to believe what sin really means. You see, if you did, then it would show the sin within you. The more you understand God's word the more you see sin in your life. Because every time you learn a new revelation from studying, you see something that you never realize you were doing.
If you had a chance to help someone and did not, you've sinned. If a lustful though came into your mind, Jesus said, you have committed adultery already in your heart, it is sin. If you slander someone it is sin. I did not even finish what the definitions of sin is and let me say, no one, other then Jesus, has reached that goal.
---Mark_V. on 3/18/11


Haz27, I see you still want to evade the question, accusing me of being aggressive. I will be even more aggressive here Haz27..

Gentiles were NEVER under the Law of Moses to die to the law to begin with. SO, with that, your theology needs a little tweeking.

Are you suggesting Paul in Galatia FIRST put Gentiles under law??? before he taught them Grace?
---kathr4453 on 3/18/11


Now believe God when He says your old man was crucified, your life is now hid with Christ. Henceforth regard no man according to the flesh 2Cor5:16
---Haz27 on 3/17/11

Why does this statement conflict with this verse?

Luke 9:23 "And He was saying to them all, 'If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross daily and follow Me'.

Because you are not reading the verses with discernment. Our old man or flesh is not crucified, if it were we would not see verses like this, Romans 12:2, and 1 John 1:9-10.

You quote 2 Cor 5, but did you miss this verse?

2 Cor 5:2 "For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven"
---Mark_Eaton on 3/18/11


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kathr
Clearly you are taking an aggressive stance in this discussion which is inappropriate.
You accuse me of evading your question BUT you leave us guessing what your actually on about.
This is not helpful, especially with the word limitations we have to share our understandings.

I have explained 1Pet4:1.
Rom 12:1 confirms it. Yes, I am talking about position and also to henceforth regard no man according to flesh. So there is no sin.

It seems you differ and believe it is a process. Can you gently tell us what your on about in 1Pet4:1? With scripture.
---Haz27 on 3/18/11


Mark_V
The definitions of sin you offered sounded like they were taken from a Bible commentary. Apart from the "transgression of the law" definition, no scriptural support was given for the others.

I still disagree with most of the definitions you gave. They are too ambiguous.
What do you have against the definitions of sin God gave us in the Bible?
---Haz27 on 3/18/11


Haz27, Two times now you have evaded the question. I asked you a question. Please don't answer with more questions. It was a simple question.

How LONG did it take you to cease from sin? Yu claim to be sinless, correct? How long did it take you to become sinless or cease from sin?

Are you saying 1 Peter 4 doesn't apply to this area of SIN you claim comes from a list of known sins? If this list is so obvious, Why does Romans 12:1-2 tell us we must present ourselves a living sacrifice to God to even KNOW His Will, and 1 peter 4,is actually DOING God's will VS SIN!!!

No one has to present themselves a living sacrifice to know what the 10 commandments are. That's clearly stated in scripture.
Please answer.
---kathr4453 on 3/18/11


(John 1:12)
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.


What is the Power mentioned in this verse?
What Power must we have to become the sons of God?


When you read (John 8:34-35) it says that sinners do not have Eternal Life, they are not permanent members of the Family of God.
So, This power that makes one a son Of God, must be a power, that enables us to overcome sin.
That power, is the Holy Spirit that lives in you.
If you are led by the Holy Spirit, does he lead you into sin?
---David on 3/18/11


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Now believe God when He says your old man was crucified, your life is now hid with Christ. Henceforth regard no man according to the flesh 2Cor5:16
---Haz27 on 3/17/11


Again Haz27, you are talking about our POSITION. We are now to reckon, yield and know this and daily act upon that truth.

Donna66, many who call themselves christians state they've never suffered. You don't suffer trying to keep the law. We suffer wen we die to self. It's impossible to die to self...self cannot cast out self ( no power there). Christ in you ALONE mortifies the flesh through the Holy Spirit. Romans 8:11-13.

Coveting, as Paul found, is a sin of the heart.

No 10commandment as well tells me to put others before myself.
---kathr4453 on 3/18/11


The biblical term of sin in Scripture is "missing the Mark" the mark that is missed is not a target, it is the mark or "Norm" of God's law. God's law expresses His own righteousness and is the ultimate standard for our behavior. "For all sin and come short of the glory of God" Rom. 3:23.
Sin is a lack or want of conformity, it is nonconformity to the law of God. Sin of "omission" is a failure to do what God commands. If God commands us to love our neighbor and we fail to do so, we sin. Failure to help those in need, is sin. Second, sin is defined as a transgression of the law. We walk where we are not permitted to walk. That is a sin of "commission."
---Mark_V. on 3/18/11


kathr
I have explained 1Pet4:1 several times but you have only given us hints of what you are alluding to in this scripture. Also your posts to me show you are misunderstanding my points. My advice is that it's better to ask questions first before making wrong assumptions.

Please tell us your understanding of the "suffering" you refer to so that we can discuss it. Also please give scripture to support your view.
---Haz27 on 3/17/11


Matthew 5:19: "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
Mattew 11:1: "And it came to pass, when Jesus had made an end of commanding his twelve disciples, he departed thence to teach and to preach in their cities."
There is our Lord, demonstrating the value and necessity of teaching. Even Paul does so, demonstrated by starting each man according to their abilities, even with "milk"!
Romans 6:17 "But God be thanked,... , but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you."
---Nana on 3/17/11


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Kathr4453-- You speak often about "suffering in the flesh".
Could you please clarify? What Christian doesn't suffer in the flesh?
---Donna66 on 3/17/11


Haz27, continuing from the other closed blog.


Have you suffered in the flesh as is told us in 1st Peter 4? ONLY THOSE who have suffered in the flesh have ceased from sin. WHAT sin is Peter talking about?

And why does it say Christ suffered in the flesh..arm yourseves likewise for he that has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin.



How long did you suffer before you ceased from sinning?

a minute, a day, week, month year, years, still suffering?

Or did you bypass that? If so, why were you allowed to bypass that?

If not...why are you judging others that they must measure up to your growth rate?
---kathr4453 on 3/17/11


Mark_V and Christan
Our different understanding is from the different definitions of sin we use. Your definition (missing the mark) is ambiguous whereas I use God's specific definitions.

Mark_V your view on 1John3:9 has changed as you used to explain this away as "Habitual sin". It's good that you now understand it is the inner man.

Now believe God when He says your old man was crucified, your life is now hid with Christ. Henceforth regard no man according to the flesh 2Cor5:16
---Haz27 on 3/17/11


Christan, you ought to be ashamed of yourself. You know better than to twist my words into something I didn't say. If you can't put it in quotes, don't accuse me of saying or meaning something. I don't take too kindly to that sort of drivel.

Also, I agree wholeheartedly with Mark V. Our spirit is born of God and sinless (1John 3:9), but our flesh falls into all sorts of mischief and sin (Romans 7:18).

Paul said "I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me" (Rom 7:20)
---James_L on 3/17/11


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The law that God gave to man is impossible for man to obey. Father Adam demonstrated this and earned for mankind, death. Created sinless, he failed miserably. We are born of Adam and inherited his sin/fallen nature. God does not need to test man anymore simply because He was not going to glorify the flesh. Which simply means, man cannot work out his own salvation outside of the grace of God.

And to prove this, Matthew 19:25,26 "When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

And man has "freewill" to save himself? Yeah, right...
---christan on 3/17/11


Mark_Eaton
Why did you only give one definition of sin when God gave several? And of the various definitions of sin in the Bible they all point to unbelief in Jesus as sin.

If you read James 4 from the beginning you might see the context differs from how you interpreted sin in verse 17.
---Haz27 on 3/17/11


Haz, you say "Yes, we WERE sinners and have repented after Jesus's call to us." WERE? Do you even know which part of the man is declared sinless when he has been justified by God? The flesh? Soul or spirit?

JamesL, though you address Donna saying "just disagreeing that we are sinless because of imputed righteousness." So obviously you do not acknowledge that the doctrine of imputation is biblical and Paul expounded it clearly in Romans 4. If righteousness is not imputed to a Christian by the Holy Spirit, you are never a Christian before God to begin with though you may think and call yourself one. It is because of Adam's sin that mankind were imputed with his sin nature.
---christan on 3/17/11


Totally agree with Mark and mima.
---CraigA on 3/17/11


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"Being sinless is only possible for God."
---Mark_Eaton on 3/17/11


Albeit..., it is that very thing which we are commanded to do and to teach.
But sadly, that is not taught much. For the way to not sinning according
to Jesus and to Paul is to be mindful of God and the things of God always
and at all times, to keep watch. There is so much false humility which boasts,
'we are weak and can't do nothing right..., and all that we are commanded ado
is impossible...'

Until one rubs them the wrong way and they become quite CAPABLE to try
and squash the one and the other and all and anyone who disagrees with their nonsense!!!.
---Nana on 3/17/11


---Mark_V. is correct!
---mima on 3/17/11


It is said,


Christians are born of God and cannot sin 1John3:9"


The answer is "Christians are "spiritually born of God," for the new creation in them cannot sin, for God does not give believers anything imperfect. But the old flesh, the physical part of man, can and does sin. Because it is not born of God, it has not been redeemed. It's still sinful and will die because of sin."
---Mark_V. on 3/17/11


"Be you all holy, for I Yhwh your God holy. For you an holy people to Yhwh your God." Lv.19:2+ 20:26+ Dt.14:2+ 28:9+ I Pt.1:16."Enough that the disciple the person be as one's Master, and the servant as one's Lord. If they called the Lord of the house beelzebub, how much more them of his household?" Mt.10:25."The temple of God is holy, which you all are." I Cor.3:17+ I Pt.2:5,9."Little children, let no person deceive you: whoever that does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin, for his seed remains in that one and that one cannot sin, because that one is born of God. As he is, so are we in this world." I Jn.3:7,9+ 4:17.
---Eloy on 3/17/11


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You claim that Christians still sin, contrary to scriptures. I am curious what definition you apply for sin.
---Haz27 on 3/17/11

I can define this for you.

James 4:17 "Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin"

How many of us know that the right thing to do is to put others before ourselves? How many of us know the right thing to do is not show favoritism? How many us know the right thing to do is to be angry and not sin? How many of us know the right thing to do is to turn the other cheek and not seek vengence?

Being sinless is only possible for God.
---Mark_Eaton on 3/17/11


""""Nana: Though your [5] comments are good, they do not automatically mean we do not sin any more:""""

At no time did I say that any is totally free from sin and that perhaps will not ever sin again. i myself rather sit at the back
perhaps that I might be called forth...

What I say is that man can overcome sin. If he does not, and when he does not, it is because he dropped his guard
and was minding that which he should not when he failed.

"watch and pray"
"a house divided"
James 1:8 "A double minded man is unstable in all his ways."
---Nana on 3/17/11


Peter
You claim that Christians still sin, contrary to scriptures. I am curious what definition you apply for sin.

Also you said that not all Christians are holy. Is there a supporting reason for this claim?
---Haz27 on 3/17/11


Hi!
Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming,
And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken,
The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.


Mar 4:13
---TheSeg on 3/17/11


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Nana: Though your [5] comments are good, they do not automatically mean we do not sin any more:

Heb 12:14: We are TOLD to be holy it does not mean that all o fARE

1 Thes 4:5: This is (as I can read it) simply a requirement for married people not to commit any sexual immorality, not a statement that married do not sin

1 Cor 15:34: The same as Hebrews

Luke 15:10: Describes repentance, not whether one who repents will never sin again

John 5:14: Another order, not a statement

There are orders of what we do 'if a brother sins against us', which implies this is at least likely to happen!
---Peter on 3/17/11


Why are so many bent on denying that a man can overcome sin, when both Paul and Christ disagree with them?


Heb.12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

1Thes.4:5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:

1Cor.15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not, for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

Luke.15:10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.

John.5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.
---Nana on 3/16/11


No. Until you die of this flesh(earthly bodies) you ARE still sinnful. At the ressurection we become the new creatures & no longer sinful.
---candice on 3/16/11


Donna.
I think you are right that we probably don't disagree.

I wasn't trying to say I disgree with your position overall, just disagreeing that we are sinless because of imputed righteousness.

We are sinless because we are a new creation. That absolutely came about because of Jesus shedding His blood and dying.

Only in His righteousness can we have confidence.

Christan,
if we are not sinless, how is it that to be absent form the body is to present with the Lord? He is in heaven, which means that's where we go when we die.

If we are still sinless, then we could not enter heaven. All that's necessary to enter heaven is to shed this sinful body.
---James_L on 3/16/11


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christan
You said "If there are sinless people walking among us, then Christ never died for them and they are on their way to the broad gate."

Are you truly comfortable making such dangerous claims?

Jesus did say: "I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."
Yes, we WERE sinners and have repented after Jesus's call to us.

Now thanks to Jesus we are:
SET FREE from sin John8:36
CEASED from sin 1Pet4:1
CANNOT sin 1John3:9
DO NOT sin 1John3:6
DEAD to sin Rom 6:2
FREED from sin Rom6:7

Jesus truly is "The Lamb of God who TAKES AWAY the sin of the world!" John 1:29.

Believe on Jesus.












---Haz27 on 3/16/11


James L-- Not sure we truly disagree. True, unless one is born again, He cannot enter the Kingdom of God. But when we are born again, how is our sinfulness done away with, why are we fit for the kingdom? Is it not by Christ's blood shed for us? The righteous dying for the unrighteous?

The flesh does not change, nor do the intents and purposes of the heart suddenly change. How can we be "sinless" as soon as we are born again? We are ready for heaven only because Christ, the Righteous One, is able to present us righteous before the Father.
Phl 3:9 ...And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
---Donna66 on 3/16/11


If there are sinless people walking among us, then Christ never died for them and they are on their way to the broad gate.

"But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." Matthew 5:12,13
---christan on 3/16/11


"For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do." Romans 7:20

Many here sound like they are more perfect and excellent than Paul, because he admitted the struggles of the flesh man and the spirit man. If you claim to be a Christian, do you not struggle like Paul did? Amazing how some can claim to be able to walk sinless in the flesh when they become a Christian when the apostle Paul couldn't.
---christan on 3/16/11


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If we are sinless, then why does First John say (to Christians) "IF you confess your sins, He is faithful and Righteous to forgive and cleanse you from all unrighteousness." We are NOT sinless at all. GOd made provision through Jesus Christ for us to be forgiven of our sins IF we confess them. That means if you commit a sin today, you confess it and you're forgiven and cleansed by the blood of Jesus...if you don't confess it, then you've got unconfessed sin in your life. Our flesh is always going to sin. It's our spirit that is perfect, not our soul (mind, will and emotions) and the flesh will sin.
---Donna5535 on 3/16/11


He said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?
He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?
And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.

And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.
And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see, and that they which see might be made blind.

And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?

Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see, therefore your sin remaineth.
---TheSeg on 3/16/11


I agree with Donna66 saying "Christians who are "sinless" are that way ONLY because The Righteousness of Christ has been imputed to them..."

Christians are born of God and cannot sin 1John3:9
---Haz27 on 3/16/11


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