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Wages Of Sin Death or Torture

Is the wages of sin really DEATH or is it an eternal LIFE of torture?

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 ---jerry6593 on 3/18/11
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1st Cliff, what do you think is going to happen when a person goes to Hell? Scripture says "And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." Revelation 20:10. The last I checked dictionary defines torment as "to afflict with great bodily or mental suffering, pain".

The earthly body is destroyed by God, the spiritual body is not destroyed but tormented eternally. You call yourself a believer of God and yet you deny who He is. Jesus taught us,

"But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell, yes, I say to you, fear Him!" Luke 12:5. Who's the One who will cast the wicked to Hell? God. So is Jesus fear mongering too?
---christan on 3/28/11

ECCLESIASTES 9,5 For the living know that they will die, But the dead know nothing, And have have no more reward,For the memory of them is forgotten.
---RICHARDC on 3/28/11

He destroyed Egypt, the Amorites, Hitites in His wrath?

KEY WORD is destroyed

The Father in Heaven destroys wicked NOTHING IMPLIES He tortured them - one must ADD that idea to Holy Scripture to make it FIT Dante's Inferno

Hitlers regime tortured millions ...torture is what one human does to another is through torture that rcc gained CONTROL over many during its years of making hell on earth

The Father in Heaven the Divine Creator of ALL will one day destroy the wicked ...he will not torture them in some "spiritual" non-alive but dead way ...amazing the analogies conceived to deny Holy Word of God with endless contradictions and support a MORTAL man named Dante and his idea of "hell"
---Rhonda on 3/28/11

If hell does not last without end, then neither does heaven, because the same words are used in the Bible to describe the duration of both.
---Cluny on 3/28/11
The RESULTS will last forever.
Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of ETERNAL FIRE.

Is the fire still burning in Sodom today? NO
Is the result of the fire is Sodom eternal? Yes
---francis on 3/28/11

Cluny, If you end up in the grave (sheol/hell)eternally doesn't it last forever?
What's the problem??
---1st_cliff on 3/28/11

No Christan,mine is the "loving God" he did not torture the Egyptians,Amorites or Hittites,He "destroyed" them (your words)
Destruction of the wicked is not fiendish, torture is!(regardless of the crime).
If you believe it is "just" punishment then you would have no objection to the Dept. of Justice bringing back the "rack" ,cat-o-nine-tails, thumb screws,dunking withches etc..huh?
What kind of punishment would you suggest is OK for
---1st_cliff on 3/28/11

If hell does not last without end, then neither does heaven, because the same words are used in the Bible to describe the duration of both.
---Cluny on 3/28/11

I am others who do not believe in eternal torture are Seventh day Adventists. We read the Bible and read of the resurrection from the dead. We see in the Bible where the dead are called asleep. In Isiah 66 which JESUS quotes part of. We read dead bodies being burnt up.

The Bible says there will be two resurrections. One to eternal life and one to the Second death. Tell me in your doctrine what does this mean? REV. 2 and 20.

Why do you believe the wicked are taken out of hell judged then put back where they came from?

Why is the word soul now translated as living being in many modern translations?

Why do you not use Bible verses to state we have an eternal soul?
---Samuel on 3/28/11

The wages of sin is DEATH:
meaning NO more life, this is NOT spiritual death.

Spiritual death is a RESULT of sin, just as violence, and crime is the result of sin and not the wages of sin.

Eternal life in a lake of fire is NOT DEATH, it is tortue. You may be on fire, but you are not DEAD
---francis on 3/27/11

1st Cliff, spare yourself from being a hypocrite by saying "I have no axe to grind with you." And after saying this, you start your accusations of "a fiendish god if that's your style", "draws people with LOVE not fright", "You "imagine" Holy Spirit is guiding you but HS does not guide with whips and chains." And you have no axe to grind with me? How about a guillotine?

Your "guide with whips and chains" are your own words. The Holy Spirit guides me with the tender love of God to the mystery of His Words. And "fiendish god"? Is that what you call Him when He destroyed Egypt, the Amorites, Hitites in His wrath?
---christan on 3/26/11

Micha, Just sort out the figurative dead from the literal dead and, voila you have it!
Is it literal "bread" that comes down from heaven? Literal and figurative in the same sentence?
---1st_cliff on 3/27/11

ROMANS 6,23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of GOD is enternal life in CHRIST JESUS our LORD.
---RICHARDC on 3/27/11

Micha you seem to have dismissed basic scripture which is why many are easily snared into the trap of religious reasoning of MORTAL MEN

Holy Scriptures state men die it does not speak of a spiritual death because we are NOT Spirit

as physical MORTAL beings WE SHALL surely die per Holy Scripture it does not claim we live instantaneously AT death or else the resurrection chapter would be a lie ...this chapter also CLEARLY states we BECOME Spirit at the resurrection it is a mystery to those who subscribe to mens fables ABOUT the Holy Word

death is NOT overcome UNTIL Christ returns and after the resurrection of all in Him 1Corin 15:54

Amen Jerry & Cliff
---Rhonda on 3/27/11

Rhonda: I see you haven't lost your touch. The BIG LIE to which you refer is the first lie ever told - the very one that Satan told in Eden. Paraphrasing, God said "if you eat from that tree, you'll die." Satan said "don't believe him, you'll live forever." Who ya gonna believe?

Even worse are the predestinationalists who believe that God is such a cruel monster that He creates the majority of his children for the sole purpose of perpetual torture.
---jerry6593 on 3/26/11

Luk 9:60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.
-The dead don't seem to be dead, but He said they were dead, but they can't be dead, they bury dead, whom Jesus also said were dead... hhmmm
John 6:50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
-and yet all die, has not anyone ate of the bread? He said we shall not die, yet we do.
-Does not the first death mean death?, especially since Jesus said we shall not die?
Does the second death mean death if the first death did not mean death?
Are many here confused between physical death and spiritual death?
---micha9344 on 3/25/11

Christian, I have no axe to grind with you. Continue to preach the "scare tactics" of a literal fiery hell and a fiendish god if that's your style.
Our God (YHVH) draws people with LOVE not fright!
You "imagine" Holy Spirit is guiding you but HS does not guide with whips and chains!
Satan is an acomplished con-artist, look how he influenced Eve!
The "broad road" is well populated! Not the narrow path!
---1st_cliff on 3/25/11

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it is sad how religion brainwashes people with absurd fears where they believe MORTAL men's versions of Holy Word of God

RATHER THAN actually reading scripture

there is nothing in scripture that implies death as life

there is nothing in scripture that implies eternal torture

a simple twist of words and the hell-fire sermons FALSE ministers preach from Dante's Inferno

follow mortal men who preach the BIG LIE of a "god" who tortures for eternity if you choose

or follow TRUTH from Holy Word of God that states hell is the grave
---Rhonda on 3/25/11

1st Cliff, when one is cornered by the Truth of the Bible, he will try to escape by all means. You saying "Are you aware that the bible was not first written in English?", is an escape route to start with. So are you to tell me that unless we are able to read Greek, we cannot trust the English translated version?

You put too much trust in the language and man's ability. I trust and believe that when one is born of the Holy Spirit, "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself, but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." John 16:13 - regardless of Greek, Jewish or any other language.
---christan on 3/25/11

Samuel, believing in half-a-god is no God at all. As the blog dictates the number of words we write, read from Genesis to Revelation and you will realize that God reveals Himself as who He is and what He does. In Him is love and hate, both rooted in His Holiness.

As for both you and 1st Cliff, you both seem to completely and clearly reject eternal death. I know of two groups that believe in this, one is the JW and the other, the Saddecees of the Scripture. Once again, eternal death is real. Though you say "Hell will exist long enough to destroy the wicked." When Hell is established, it is eternal, no beginning and no ending, forever and forever.
---christan on 3/25/11

Samuel, There is many ways that hell is describe by Jesus and others, mostly by Jesus, and no where is going to hell describe as you say:

"Hell will exist long enough to destroy the wicked. What is false is an eternal torture."

The Bible clearly teaches that the punishment is eternal. The same word is used for both eternal life and eternal death. Punishment implies pain. Mere annihilation, which some lobbied for, involves no pain. In fact, "Wicked men will hereafter earnestly wish to be turned to nothing and forever cease to be that they may escape the wrath of God"
The person will be prepared with a body and there will be no escape from hell through either repentance or annihilation.
---Mark_V. on 3/25/11

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First the word translated as hell has various meanings. Do not take my word for it. Go to any Bible dictionary or Bible web site and look up the meaning.

Second I do not say there is no hell. Hell will exist long enough to destroy the wicked. What is false is an eternal torture.
---Samuel on 3/25/11

1Cliff, no matter how much you try to convince yourself there is no hell, and how you turn the word hell around of its meaning, there will still be a hell for those who have rebelled against God because most of the teaching about hell comes from the lips of Jesus. It is this doctrine that most try to escape from, but only in their own mind. You and those who have put it in your minds do so by trying to minimize hell in an effort to try to sidestep or soften Jesus own teachings. Hell is described in many ways by Jesus, but the sinner would prefer a place of only separation from God, but it will be hell that will not stop.
---Mark_V. on 3/25/11

And predestination is God's perfect and Holy will, whether you like it or not.

I love GOD's HOLY Will. I do not love the false image of GOD painted by Calvin. I will probably meet him and you in heaven. Where we can discuss this. But I cannot reconcile your doctrine with the statments of GOD loving all people. Yes GOD can predict the future. Does that mean he forces people to do only certain things or does it mean he knows what our choices will be?

They are not the same thing.

The wages of sin is death. That is what JESUS said and I believe Him.
---Samuel on 3/24/11

Christan, Scripture cited does not match Job 16.6. but "naked" hell (sheol) just means the grave is "open"
Are you aware that the bible was not first written in English?
Gehenna is Greek term used for the valley of Hinom!
Deut.32.22 it's God's "anger" that's on fire not hell(sheol)"shall..SET ON FIRE" (future)the foundations of the mountains.

Psl.9.17 Hell (sheol)the grave ,no fire here!
Sheol,Hades,Gehenna and Tarteros 4 Hebrew and Greek words all TRANSLATED "hell" ,3 different meanings,no wonder you're confused!
---1st_cliff on 3/24/11

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1st Cliff, where does it in Scripture even mention Gehenna? You're just trying to confuse many here by squeezing the Jewish name Gehenna into God's Word. The Word of God simply declares the place of torment (eternal death) as hell. Here's your warning from God

"For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains." Deuteronomy 32:22

"Hell is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering." Job 16:6

"The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God." Psalm 9:17

If I'm shortsighted, you must be blind.
---christan on 3/24/11

Christan, Sorry about miss spelling your name ,thanks Nana. I try not to make spelling errors but it happens!
---1st_cliff on 3/24/11

"Christian, Your short sightedness is manifest in your blog!"
---1st_cliff on 3/23/11

You made a typo mistake in addressing this fellow. He is not a Christian but a christan
---Nana on 3/24/11

Christian, Your short sightedness is manifest in your blog!
Cite one scripture ,Genesis to Malachi, where God warned "His people" of the dangers of Gehenna!the spiritual resting place of the wicked?(3'500 years)
Or that heaven is the spiritual resting place for God's people!
Psl.115.16 The highest heavens belong to the Lord but the earth He has given to man! (See also vs.17 the dead go down into "SILENCE")
---1st_cliff on 3/23/11

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"Tell me how you figure the the "hell" cited at Mat.28 is a literal fire?" 1st Cliff

Adding words into someone else's comment is not going to help your foolish theology. Just as the kingdom of heaven is going to be spiritual resting place for God's people, the lake of fire is also a spiritual place with no rest for the wicked. Gehenna, call it what you want, it's not the earthly place you seem to think it is.

My argument does not hold water is because it holds God's eternal fire and water is what you will be pleading for when you're in Hades and then Gehenna, just like the rich man in Luke 16:19-31.
---christan on 3/23/11

Samuel, for your information, Calvin is not the teacher of predestination. God is. You only have to read Isaiah 53 (not to mention that the coming Messiah was already spoken of from as early as Genesis 3:15) and acknowledge that Christ was prophesied in detail as to how He was coming and going to die. And He came and died according to the prophesy. Redemption accomplished.

Peter even declared, "He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you" 1 Peter 1:20 - this is predestination.

And predestination is God's perfect and Holy will, whether you like it or not.
---christan on 3/23/11

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Matthew 10:28

God is indeed love but He only love those whom He has elected in His Son Jesus Christ. And is everyone elected? Scripture says no.

Well the verse says that GOD will destroy the wicked. Not keep them alive torturing them.

Now you follow Calvin in predestination. But that is another topic.
---Samuel on 3/23/11

Christian, Let me answer for you, hell at Mat 10.28. is from the word "Gehenna" .
Gehenna is/was a geographic location, just outside Jerusalem (the Valley of Hinom).
To take this "literally" would indicate that that's the actual location of "hell" . Are the fires still burning there ?? Are thousands being thrown in there every day??
If not then what scripture says it was moved and to where??
Your argument doesn't hold water!
---1st_cliff on 3/23/11

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//The wages of sin is death. Why add to scripture?
---duane on 3/22/11//

I agree! But most Christians think that the wages of sin is eternal life (albeit in an uncomfortable environment).
---jerry6593 on 3/23/11

Christian, Your mind has been poisoned by pagan influence...example of what I've said many times about "study" not just read!
Tell me how you figure the the "hell" cited at Mat.28 is a literal fire?
How can fire burn a non entity with no central nervous system?
I believe you are the one who ought to worry ,defaming the creator with this "torture" nonsense!
If your "pet" became vicious and bit people would you feel it "justice" to torture it with a blow torch only to the point of death??
---1st_cliff on 3/23/11

1st Cliff and Samuel,

You may think that by you saying that God is a loving God and does not desire to kill or throw someone to hell will gain you favor in His sight. But I assure you that by saying He loves everyone He created, you have already bear false witness to His Word. Who do you think is the One to throw a soul to hell? Read the very words of Christ,

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Matthew 10:28

God is indeed love but He only love those whom He has elected in His Son Jesus Christ. And is everyone elected? Scripture says no.
---christan on 3/22/11

The wages of sin is death. Why add to scripture?
---duane on 3/22/11

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It upsets me that people want to see other tortured. They rejoice and say how great it is that GOD is mistaken in saying the wages of sin is death. They seem to want to enjoy the torture of the wicked.

I do not understand this. It was a joy to me to find the truth that what JESUS said is actually true. The wages of sin is death.

Where is scripture is an eternal indestructable body that GOD cannot destroy mentioned?
---Samuel on 3/22/11

No Christian, man "IS" a soul(read the verse correctly) spirit keeps him alive!
Your vivid description of the tortures of hell are the epitome of vicious cruelty that Mark V says God is incapable of being!
If you believe that our loving God is that kind of fiend then you must believe that Hitler was a saint because, at least he gassed his victims before burning them!
BTW I have no teeth (just dentures)but when I'm cremated I won't even have any gumms!What will I gnash??
---1st_cliff on 3/22/11

I believe that those who wish that hell is only a symbol for separation from God, are trying to find relief from the real wrath of God, since the ungodly want nothing more than to be separated from God. There problem with hell will not be separation from God, it will be the presence of God that will torment them. In hell, God will be present in the fullness of His divine wrath. He will be there to exercise His just punishment of the damned. They will know Him as an all consuming fire. One thing is for sure, God is not cruel. It is impossible for God to be cruel. God is incapable of inflicting an unjust punishment. The Judge of all the earth will surely do what is right. The Bible teaches that the punishment is eternal. Punishment implies pain.
---Mark_V. on 3/22/11

To all that believe God tortures humans in a fire after death consider this--
Believing that God waited 4,000 years before warning people of the dangers of spending eternity in a literal blazing inferno is absolutely incomprehensible!
Do you really "study" the scriptures....hello!
That's why Judaism does not teach "hell fire"
---1st_cliff on 3/21/11

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"You think God stuck a "spirit-man" in Adam's nostrils?" 1st Cliff

"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul." Genesis 2:7, The man is made up of "body, soul, spirit" says 1 Thes 5:23.

You're basically ignoramus', making light of God's Word and spewing your own foolish doctrines. The Lake of Fire is Hell, call it what you want. Be assured that the earthly fire we see and experience will be nothing compared to the eternal Fire of damnation. The earthly body simply returns to dust but the eternal body you will receive from God for eternal death will make you weep and gnash forever.
---christan on 3/21/11

1st Cliff, I did some minimal digging with my on-line dictionary, and you are right.

Hell, Hoelle, and hole are all descended from an Indo-European root meaning "to cover or hide".

A tip of the hat to you! :-)
---Cluny on 3/21/11

-- Jerry :

Brother, The wage of sin is death, and along as you're temporal you'll suffer for well doing or for evil doing, that the Will of God be so (1 Peter 3:17)
---Shawn.M.T on 3/21/11

Revelation 20:13-15 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

If the net of going into the lake of fire is "death", How could there be death if there is no life to die?
---Nana on 3/21/11

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Cluny, There's no "Gehenna" in the OT in fact no "fire" in Sheol or hell of the OT.
Jesus used Gehenna as a metaphor!
Christian, Rev. defines "lake of fire" as "this MEANS the 2nd death".If it is literal would it need defining? An invisible spirit/soul has teeth?
Fundamentalists use death symbolically as separation from God!
Paul, The spirit "in" man is the breath God gives to breathe and live,what happens to it when you lives on??
You think God stuck a "spirit-man" in Adam's nostrils?
---1st_cliff on 3/21/11

Paul: "Jerry
Is it possible that the scripture [you] are alluding to separation from the source such as the prodigal son was considered dead until his awakening?"

Not likely. In context, the scriptures in Eze concern the punishment for sins by fathers and sons. In this, they are in complete harmony with the NT concept that the "wages of sin is death" (Rom 6:23).
---jerry6593 on 3/21/11

\\"Hell" is 65 times in the OT (Sheol) 31 times translated as "grave" 31 times as hell plus pit, and death! English "hell" comes from the German hoelle meaning just that "hole" where you bury people!

I don't know if the English word "hell" is a cognate of "hole," but it is certainly similar to the Germanic word Hela, the queen of the dead.

This is one reason why in my liturgical translations (a task not unlike translating the Bible), I prefer using the ultimately Hebraic forms GEHENNA for the place of punishment and SHEOL for the general abode of the dead.

"Hell" and "Hades" have become confused and even trivialized in modern speech.
---Cluny on 3/20/11

Is it possible that the scripture are alluding to separation from the source such as the prodigal son was considered dead until his awakening?

Lu 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again, he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
---paul on 3/20/11

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---1st_cliff on 3/20/11

Well, as Born again Christians God puts HIS SPITIT in you. That spirit will never die will it, unless God dies. That's why we must be BORN AGAIN, Born of HIS SPIRIT! And that's what makes us His Children....who are eternal beings NOW through Christ. His begotten sons through Christ will not die. Our flesh will, just as Jesus died in the flesh...Jesus spirit did not die on calvary.

God is not a beverage, or an attitude.
---kathr4453 on 3/20/11

1st Cliff, is death and torment spoken of in the Scripture supposed to be symbolic? Is weeping and gnashing of the teeth symbolic? Is the lake of fire symbolic? Symbolic of what?

Do not deviate from the subject of eternal punishment, because that's what the Scripture tells us that's reserved for the vessels of dishonor, prepared for destruction. And that's not symbolic.
---christan on 3/20/11

Cluny, In religious history you excel, but in other aspects of theology ,I wonder! "Hell" is 65 times in the OT (Sheol) 31 times translated as "grave" 31 times as hell plus pit, and death! English "hell" comes from the German hoelle meaning just that "hole" where you bury people!
---1st_cliff on 3/20/11

DEUTERONOMY 25:2 Then it shall be, if the wicked man deserves to be beaten,that the judge will cause him to lie down and beaten in his presence, according to his guilt, with a certain number of blows. Forty blows he may give him and no more, lest he should exceed this and beat him with many blows above these, and your brother be humiliated in your sight.

( What this verse tells us is God puts a limit on punishment. Now saying God will Torture people in hell for enternity seems goes against this.)

EZEKIEL 18:21 But if the wicked man turns from his sins which he has committed, keeps all my statues, and does what is lawful and right, he shall live, he shall not die.
---RICHARDC on 3/20/11

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I have posted several scriptures that indicate the immortality of the inner man or spirit man or the spirit in a man.
Job 32:8 But there is a spirit in man, And the breath of the Almighty gives him understanding.

I understand all the variations and derivatives of the word spirit, but I am referring to the spirit in a man.

This is enough to convince me that their is a part of man the will live forever.

If you choose not to believe this it is certainly your right to do so.

God Bless, Paul
---paul on 3/20/11

\\Immortal worms?? Ever see total "darkness" in a fire??\\

The worm and fire of hell are non-earthly.

Jesus was clearly using a metaphor to describe a reality beyond the mere physical (and merely physical is what SDA says hell is).

Those who are really anxious to know the reality of hell will find out, I'm sure.

By Christ's mercy and grace, may the rest of us not have first-hand knowledge of it.
---Cluny on 3/20/11

Paul: "What scripture can show that a spirit does not live forever?"

Eze 18:4 ... the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
---jerry6593 on 3/20/11

Paul, Thanks for your response.
Jesus, God and Angels are "spirit beings"(we are humans, a little lower than angels)Heb.2.9
To be in "good spirits" is a state of mind.
The Christmas spirit or the spirit of '76 is a collective attitude.
Alcohol,varsol turpentine are also called "spirits."
I don't see any scripture that says man's spirit lives forever.IMHO
In Greek spirit is "pneuma" as in pneumatic (air driven machinery) or pneumonia (lung problem)
---1st_cliff on 3/20/11

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1st cliff

I like you, I really do, I just disagree with your interpretation of the scriptures.

A spirit is a sum part of man that will live forever.

If you read on in your Vines Dictionary you will find it relates Spirit to wind and breath to denote its invisibility and power.

God is a spirit ( John 4:24 ) which is more than breath or wind, Jesus demonstrated this to Nicodemus in (John 3:8) to illustrate the make up of the Spirit in mans understand of relatable resources.

What scripture can show that a spirit does not live forever?

God Bless, Paul
---paul on 3/19/11

Christian, Before you say "this is the definition" you need to separate the literal from the symbolic!
IE- It's 100F in the shade, some one dips the "tip" of the finger in water for you..that's going to cool you??? give me a break!
Immortal worms?? Ever see total "darkness" in a fire??
What teeth will this soul gnash when his teeth (or dentures) are left in the casket??
Eternal death is called "perish" Jn.3.16.
---1st_cliff on 3/19/11

it is an eternal separation from a share in the Father's inheritance, which is worse than what those sacrificed felt in the valley of Gehenna.
---aka on 3/19/11

"Death" or being "dead" does not always mean the same thing. We have, for example, "But she who lives in pleasure is dead while she lives." (1 Timothy 5:6) So, a person can be "dead" while living, meaning dead as far as God's love life is concerned, but alive in tune with pleasures. Likewise, hell is a place of such death, of being dead to God, but alive to suffering once the pleasures are gone. So, the word "death" does not have to mean total nonexistence, then.

We have "died to sin" but we live in love (Romans 6:2), though we "died". We were "baptized into His death", yet we live (Romans 6:3).
---Bill_willa6989 on 3/19/11

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This is the definition of eternal death according to the Scripture.

"and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." Rev 20:10, "And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue, for I am tormented in this flame." Luke 16:24

"Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." Luke 9:44, "But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Matthew 8:12
---christan on 3/19/11

Paul, If you look at the definition of "spirit" you'll find that it's air, breath, wind etc.. When your breath (spirit) leaves your body does it exist forever?, perhaps but it has no personality!
When God breathed into Adam the "breath of life",it left him at death.(went back to God who gave it).
If you are deserving of death is it not everlasting "punishment?"shame and contempt?
When they execute a criminal is his punishment not eternal?
---1st_cliff on 3/19/11

1st cliff

Your right, I should have said the spirit never dies, but the point is the same.
Way to many indicators to dismiss the FACT that there is a part of man that will live forever regardless.

Ec 12:7 Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.

Da 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 Those who are wise shall shine Like the brightness of the firmament, And those who turn many to righteousness Like the stars forever and ever.

Mt 25:46 "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

God Bless, Paul
---paul on 3/19/11

//Well, YOU believe that the wages of sin is for God to resurrect the wicked only to burn them up alive. Which is worse?

I got this SDA factoid from the SDA REVELATION SEMINARS.
---Cluny on 3/18/11//

Gee, you could've got it straight from the Bible. Do you have one?

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
---jerry6593 on 3/19/11

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Paul, **for a soul can't die**
I will repent in sack cloth and ashes on the city hall steps if you can show me one scripture that says "the soul cant die"" "immortal soul" deathless or never dieing soul!!!
---1st_cliff on 3/18/11

\\Most churches teach that the wicked go straight to hell and burn there for all eternity. They do not ever seem to mention a resurrectionat all.\\

I don't know where you got that idea.

The Nicene Creed, used by all the Pre-Reformation Churches, is very specific. "I look for the Resurrection of the dead..."

And the Apostle's Creed, used by the Roman Catholic Church and all historical confessional Protestant churches says, "I the Resurrection of the body..."

So it looks to me like you're either indulging in a straw-man argument, or think American evangelicalism is the world standard.
---Cluny on 3/18/11


Let me try to answer you questions: 1 & 3 What is death? Death is separation, our soul separates from our body, physical death, Soul separated from God, spiritual death.

4. Many are confused about the truth in scripture, this site proves it.

5.There are several resurrections in the bible but we will only mention 4. 1. Many people after Christs resurrection, or first fruits. 2. Resurrection of the church 3. Resurrection of Old testament saints and tribulation saints. 4. Then the unbelievers after the 1000 yr reign.

6. All Christians get a glorified body?
---Pastor_Herb on 3/18/11

So, the first death isn't really death?
And the dead can't really bury their dead even though Jesus said to let them?
So, when is the Bible talking about spiritual death and when is it talking about physical death?
Can some be confused not discerning the truth in scripture?
Does everyone get resurrected?
Do we all get resurrected into a glorified body?
It all must tie together to reconcile the truth of all scripture.
---micha9344 on 3/18/11

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I do not understand the point of this Blog.

Rev. 20:14 is clear.

Rev 20:14 "Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire This is the second death, the lake of fire".

Second Death. Not eternal life of torture.
---Mark_Eaton on 3/18/11

Cluny you asked which is worse. But you only showed one alternative. As a Seventh day Adventist I believe the wicked are resurrected to show the glory of GOD. They confess that GOD is GOD. Then they are killed by fire. So that is one side.

Most churches teach that the wicked go straight to hell and burn there for all eternity. They do not ever seem to mention a resurrectionat all.

So I think burning in hell for all eternity is worse. What do you think?
---Samuel on 3/18/11

all are ignoring the rich man and lazarus story,yes there vis eternal torture,described in this story,and a request to abraham to let his family know about it.SO YES THERE IS ETERNAL TORTURE AND PUNISHMENT.
---tom2 on 3/18/11

You will live eternally somewhere, Heaven or Hell, for a soul cant die.
The wages of sin are death, eternal death from God being separated from or dead to Him.
Remember this my son who was dead and is alive again, but never died but was perceived as such.
Lets not look to any man for answers, lets look to Gods Word.

Heb 10:28 Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
What punishment is worse than death?


---paul on 3/18/11

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The correct answer is:
Ro6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
If our sins were not covered by Jesus Christ then:
Mt25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Whether or not the Lord destroys them or tortures them for all eternity matters not. What matters is that they are not with the Father.
Do we not have more to be thankful for than we can ever imagine. Our God is full of grace and mercy to his elect!
---trey on 3/18/11

Jerry, Let's go by God's "track record" has He ever subjected any human to "torture?"
He has "killed" many whom He deemed was not worthy of life,by drowning, fire, earth swallowing up, etc but never sentenced anyone to endless torture, that's not His style!
mercy,compassion, justice, forgiveness but never ever torture!
We are made in His image...when was the last time you tortured any one (or animal for that matter)and
if you did, you're a candidate for mental health issues!
---1st_cliff on 3/18/11

The wages of sin is, and has always been, death. Rom 6:23>Rom 5:12>Gen 2:17>Eze 18:4>Eze 18:20>Jam 1:15
Yet, "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. Jhn 3:16
A Life that is given to "those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality, Rom 2:7
"He who believes in the Son has everlasting life, and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."Jhn 3:36
---josef on 3/18/11

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