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Loose Eternal Salvation

Do you believe that if you are eternally saved one day you can loose your eternal salvation the next day?

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 ---trey on 3/23/11
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Christan, if you can look your children in the eye and tell them that Jesus Christ may not have died for them because God wants them to burn in hell forever then you have a cold dead heart.

May God have mercy on your soul,
---Jasheradan on 3/27/11


//Unfortunately some Christians want to believe they are the author of their own salvation.

Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Author = creator, originator, inventor, source

Kathr - is it not wonderful you can believe the truth and not even be a Calvinist?
---leej on 3/27/11


Christian

Your interpretation is out of touch with the overall point of scriptures.

Christ said If I be lifted up I WILL DRAW ALL MEN UNTO MYSELF not a few men.

And He CHOSE us all from the foundation of the earth.

Those in Hades are their due to rebellion and unbelief.

God Bless,Paul
---paul on 3/27/11


Paul, first of all, yes, I believe that Christ did not die for all of mankind "but for them which thou hast given me, for they are thine." John 17:9. For if Christ died for everyone, you're going to have a hard time explaining to those who are in Hades that His death couldn't save them. And that's impossible as taught by in Romans 8:35-39.

Granted that His prayer in John 17 was referring to His disciples. What did Christ tell them in John 15:16, "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you", and if Christ was to have chosen His disciples for salvation, doesn't this then confirm the doctrine of sovereign election? Therfore, Christ died for His elect only and not for all mankind.
---christan on 3/26/11


Jasheradan, I do have children and what makes you think I do not teach them the doctrine of election and predestination? By the grace of God, I do not sugar-coat the Scripture one bit. He tells us that He loves only Jacob and hated Esau, and they were twin brothers. So much for your doctrine of God loves "everyone". You bear false witness of His Word.

Quoting Isaiah 42:1, 65:9 and Matthew 12:17-18 simply confirms Paul's teaching in Romans 9 of unconditional election by God in salvation. And foolishly, you reject what I believe and show me verses that confirms what I believe in Romans 9. Thank you very much.
---christan on 3/26/11




Elder, you define rightly what is "elect" up to the point when you demonstrate "elect" in the game of golf. Be assured that the game of golf is nothing compared to the seriousness of salvation.

The choosing of which club to use in the game of golf is not the same as when God elected Jacob for salvation before the foundation of the world. Many cannot believe that in the lives of Jacob and Esau, God demonstrates His unconditional love and hate. That He has the right to create from the same lump of clay, a vessel of honor (love) and a vessel of dishonor (hate).

Your analogy of golf to election to salvation is out-of-bounds. No mulligan for you.
---christan on 3/26/11


Paul, when I answer you I do not make comments to you that are personal. That is why I enjoyed answering you. Now you come with,
"
I give them to you constantly and you wag your nose at them and insist on continuing on your way."

I don't know why you have to resort to getting personal. It seems to me that most of you cannot answer a question concerning Scripture without having to throw garbage at the person you are answering. I bet you never do that to a brother in person when you speak to him. I thought you were different, but it's all the same thing. Tell you what, just forget what I said. It was meaningless to you anyway.
---Mark_V. on 3/27/11


"Why is it so difficult for people to reason the scriptures just as they are?" Paul

So do you take it as it says when the Scripture declares,

"As it is written, Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated." Romans 9:13, "just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world" Ephesians 1:4, "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:44, "You did not choose Me, but I chose you" John 15:16

And with these verses shown that there is no such thing as man's free-will to choose salvation?
---christan on 3/27/11


ISAIAH 51:6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens,And look on the earth beneath,For the heaven will vanish away like smoke, And those who dwell in it will die in like manner,But my salvation will be forever, And my righteousness will not be abolished
---RICHARDC on 3/27/11


//Unfortunately christan fails to understand in Romans 9, Israel was already God's chosen people, long before ever going into Egypt to begin with, before even Joseph was sold into slavery.


the Christian is one of Gods chosen people.

Romans 9:6-8 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but Through Isaac shall your offspring be named. This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

Unfortunately some Christians want to believe they are the author of their own salvation.
---leej on 3/27/11




Why is it so difficult for people to reason the scriptures just as they are?
Here Paul is teaching that God the Father and God the Son made man in their image and that was set into motion before man came to be.

29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called, whom He called, these He also justified, and whom He justified, these He also glorified.


Ge 1:26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness,

Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy
Paul
---paul on 3/26/11


Mark

I'm sorry friend but you don't agree with scriptures.

I give them to you constantly and you wag your nose at them and insist on continuing on your way.

So in actuality you agree with the scriptures that agree with you not considering the countless others that complete the point but disprove your theory.

God Bless, Paul
---paul on 3/26/11


Christan, I reject your arrogant recommendation to stick to Romans 9. I dont live in one chapter of the Bible.
---Jasheradan on 3/26/11

Unfortunately christan fails to understand that in Romans 9, Israel was already God's chosen people, long before ever going into Egypt to begin with, long before even Joseph was sold into slavery there.

Romans 9 is based on the promise God gave Araham concerning God's chosen People, I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you...

Having nothing to do with God picking and choosing who He wants out of His good Humor.

God also promised Abraham, IN THEE will all falilies of the earth be blessed. Pharoah 1, in Josephs time was blessed through Joseph.
---kathr4453 on 3/26/11


Kathr, I would agree with you in part but there are still numerous verses that give a hint that its possible to have taken away from you what God has given you. In the parable, the man who did nothing with the talent his master gave him had it taken from him and was cast into outer darkness where there was gnashing of teeth.

The word also says that God will not be mocked. We will reap what we sow.

Its not a matter of once saved always saved to me, but whether or not a man was truely repentant when he asked the Lord Jesus Christ to be his personal savior.

Jesus is not a get-out-of-hell free card so we no longer have to feel guilty about the daily sins that we have no intention of turning from.
---Jasheradan on 3/26/11


donna, You never ASK question, and if you do, it's scrambled with an accusation mixed with sarcasm.



WHOSOEVER will vs Calvin election "no whosoever will". There is no half way between that. Not even close. and arminian has nothing to do with the half way mark.

Losing your salvation has nothing to do with whosoever, vs no whosoever. You donna seem to state here over and over you do not believe in whosoever will, that its God who gives faith.

Losing your salvation vs eternal secutity...there is no half way betwen that either..

Either it's secure or it'sot.

Either it's whosoever or a secret few...no half way there either.
---kathr4453 on 3/26/11


Do you have any children? So which side are you really on?
---Jasheradan on 3/25/11

Here's the analogy. Have a Wife,children..and inheritance for "them". My covenant vows are with "them". My honoring "me" family.
Would/will reward you and yours in faithfulness to me and mine. A place of blessing having plenty.
Arrogantly though....you want what was covenanted to "My Family". Mr Jasgenerous, that won't give your family's inheritance to whoever walks through the door.
Deut32:9the LORD's portion is his people,Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.
Psalm 33:12Blessed is the nation whose God is LORD, the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance.
---Trav on 3/26/11


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Paul, I agree with part 1. But disagree with part 2. I don't have to think about it Paul. I have to believe what is written in Scripture.
1. Dan. 4:35, "He doeth according to His will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay His hand"
2. Prov. 19:21, "there are many devices in a man's heart, nevertheless the counsel of the Lord, that shall stand"
There is no future event which is only a mere possibility, that is, something which may or may not come to pass,
3. Acts 15:18, "Known unto God are all His works from the beginning"
Whatever God has decreed is inexorably certain, for He is without variableness, or shadow of turning, James 1:17.
---Mark_V. on 3/26/11


The only "Third position" I can see would be not to believe in God at all! If GOD didn't choose YOU and YOU didn't Choose GOD...where does that leave you?
---Donna66 on 3/25/11

A way to ask the question would be, WHAT is the third position? If you've made up your mind that the third would be not to believe in God at all, then there was no question, but a statement based on your statement.

1.)If God didn't chose you, and 2.)you didn't chose God...

Was that a trick question then?

If God didn't chose you, and you didn't chose God you're simply lost.

That is not a compromising doctrine between Calvin and Arminian most christians lean towards in the first place..
---kathr4453 on 3/26/11


---Jasheradan on 3/25/11
"Do you have any children? Next time you look in their eyes, tell them that God may not love them and He might want them to burn in hell forever because He takes pleasure in that. Yeah, I didnt think so. "

Right on.

God Bless, Paul
---paul on 3/26/11


Paul part 2:
God's word reveals to us so much of the future of
4. Rev. 1:1, "Things which must shortly come to pass"
So God's knowledge does not arise from things because they are or will be, but because He has ordained them to be.
5. Prov. 15:3, "The eyes of the lord are in every place, beholding the evil and the good"
6. Job 23:13, "But He is in one mind, and who can turn Him? and what His soul desireth, even that He doeth"
7. Rom. 11:36, "For of Him, and through Him, and to Him, are all things: to whom be glory forever Amen"
---Mark_V. on 3/26/11


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The Greek word elect is used only 13 times in the NT and 4 in the OT. It means "to select, make choice, choose out, pick out, to choose for oneself." It does not imply rejection.
If I "choose" a 3 iron playing Golf that does not mean the 9 iron is not a golf club.
If I "elect" to use a pinch hitter that does not mean others are not on my team.
Consider that the elect in Matt 24 is the 144,000 in Rev 7 & 14.
Rom 10:9-13 is valid.
Those like "Christian" think some are chosen to go to hell but are never one of them. They are always "chosen" to be "saved."
Simply the elect are those chosen out of the saved to do a certain task. It has to do with Gods foreknowledge.
---Elder on 3/26/11


Christan, I reject your arrogant recommendation to stick to Romans 9. I dont live in one chapter of the Bible.

Isaiah 65:9
And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and MINE ELECT shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there

Isaiah 42:1
Behold my servant, whom I uphold, MINE ELECT, in whom my soul delighteth, I have put my spirit upon HIM: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

Matt 12:17,18
That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
Behold my servant, WHOM I HAVE CHOSEN, my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.
---Jasheradan on 3/26/11


My belief in eternal security has nothing to do with Calvinism either! (I'm not a "Calvinist") I simply believe in it because my salvation came from GOD. And I believe He is able to keep me and continue the good work He has begun in me.

I'm not going to ask you any more questions because like the "suffering with Christ blog" you think I'm stating something... instead of asking! Nor will I respond to any more of your posts containing the "C" word. It sets you off like a filly looking at a new gate. (Horsemen will understand.)
---Donna66 on 3/25/11


//You simply hate that God has elected some to salvation and others to damnation//Christan

Do you have any children? Next time you look in their eyes, tell them that God may not love them and He might want them to burn in hell forever because He takes pleasure in that. Yeah, I didnt think so.

It should fill every man's heart with joy to know that Christ died for everyone. Yet strangely it doesnt for some. It angers them because then they wont be envied for being the only ones Christ died for.

You wanna know who is working mightily in us to present EVERY MAN perfect in Jesus Christ? GOD is. (Colossians 1:28,29)

So which side are you really on?
---Jasheradan on 3/25/11


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kathr4453-- I don't know who
Abram Cooper is. I do know of Watchman Nee and Charles Stanley. The latter two actually do have beliefs about this, but they don't label them "Calvinism" or "Arminianism" as you do!

I'm not a theologian nor a church historian. It's the principle, I'm interested in, not the labels.
---Donna66 on 3/25/11


Part2
Mark

I desire no credit or I would list my accomplishments as I see others doing here.

As for God pre-ordaining what we will do, think and say.

If that is the true gospel then why does Gods Word teach us how to conduct our vessels unto honor if Gods causing us to DO?
Why are we taught to bring every thought under subjection if God is giving us our thoughts?

Why will we give an account for every idle word we speak if God is giving us All our words to say.

Just dont add up.
God Bless, Paul
---paul on 3/25/11


donna again you are wrong because this is what your limited understanding believes.

Both calvin and arminian came out of teh reformation. Before teh reformation, no one was either.

AND donna I am neither, Abrams Cooper is neither..I could name a long list of those who believe neither. Willian R Newell, Lewis Sperry Chafer,Watchamn Nee, Charles Stanley...need I go on??

I believe in eternal securty, not because of any Calvin belief system, also states I not arminiam.

---kathr4453 on 3/25/11


Kathr4453-- Most believers are neither exclusively Calvinist (believing God chooses them) nor Arminian (believing they choose God). Believers all fall somewhere along this continuum. Some will say "God chooses, but"... or "I chose, but.." You are close to one end of the scale.

The only "Third position" I can see would be not to believe in God at all! If GOD didn't choose YOU and YOU didn't Choose GOD...where does that leave you?
---Donna66 on 3/25/11


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Ezekiel 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, [and] doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked [man] doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die
---francis on 3/25/11


Christian

God sent His son into the WORLD that through Him the world might be saved.

His prayer in John 17:9 was for His disciples, as you will note He lost none (disciples) except the son of perdition.
Joh 17:12

I don't promote denominational dogma in that since of doctrine, I teach the Word of Truth in Gods
Church.

Are you saying Christ did not die for all?

God Bless, Paul
---paul on 3/25/11


John 17:18-21 "As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word,
That they all may be one, as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us:
that the world may believe that thou hast sent me."
---Nana on 3/25/11


Part 1
Mark

I understand why you feel the way you do, but let me also say I disagree with you.

My desire is to give God ALL the credit in all I am, I once was a dead beat drug addict who cared about no one or nothing.

God delivered me from that and has caused great favor on me over the years and has lifted me up to places I never though possible.

I stand on stage often and declare Gods works in my life secure in the knowledge that I of myself can do nothing, but if God can do it He can do it through me.

But I feel people have accountability to God therefore representing responsibility to God.
---paul on 3/25/11


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Jasheradan, what is your understanding of the "elect"? And I recommend you not try to define it other than what is written in Romans 9:11. There's no need for a sign at the narrow gate. Why? Because the elect Shepperd will be leading them through that gate.

"To him the porter openeth, and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice." John 10:3,4
---christan on 3/25/11


Paul, when you read John 3:16 in context to the whole chapter, Christ was revealing to Nicodemus that not only the Jews are receiving salvation but also the gentiles. Using John 3:16 to claim that God loves everybody He created, you'll be immediately contradicted that your doctrine is a lie, when Christ prayed to the Father in John 17:9,

"I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me, for they are thine."

Now try and reconciled yourself and your doctrine in John 3:16 and John 17:9. It'll be interesting to hear your reply.
---christan on 3/25/11


No. Not unless something I DID "earned" my salvation. But it didn't. I was a sinner and lost as lost can be. Salvation was a free gift.

Jesus didn't save me because I was good. How will He abandon me now, if I am somehow less than good?

Our goal should be to live in a manner that pleases God, not just to stay out of hell. If we fail, He will chastise us, not ban us from His family.
---Donna66 on 3/25/11


"Jesus Christ IS the Elect of God. If we enter thru the door which is Christ, we are elect/chosen as well because we are "hidden with Christ in God"." Jasheradan

You're very cunning and deceiving in your doctrines. You simply hate that God has elected some to salvation and others to damnation and you brew your poison with such a remark above of explaining the true meaning of an elect. You say what you say is because you simply want to cling on to your love of the free-will, which is what your statement smells of.

Jesus Christ is God! The Father does not need to "elect" His own Son. Remember, both He and the Father are One. Amazing!
---christan on 3/25/11


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Kathr, I suppose you did not read what I said because you said,

"To say you were already IN CHRIST and He in you before the foundation of the world, would be teaching we too are incarnates, taking on flesh."

If you read what I said, "no where did I say" we were in Christ and He in us before the foundation of the World. We were elected to salvation before the foundation of the world. Hello? That from eternity He chose a peculiar group of people to be His own. They were born just like everyone else due to the curse, but in time the Holy Spirit brought them to faith and salvation. We know He is Omnipotent and didn't choose everyone, or else everyone would be save.
---Mark_V. on 3/25/11


Eph 1:4 Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world

//The person going through the door does not become "elect" What it proves is that he was one of the elect. //

The sign on the outside doesn't read "Only the elect may enter"
---Jasheradan on 3/25/11


If God has committed Himself to keeping us for all eternity, He will not fail (Philippians 1:6). He already knows who He will succeed at keeping, in spite of us.

"But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17) If He has joined us to Himself, truly, we have been super-glued to Him in His own power almighty, and our being "one spirit with" God has already changed us to become obedient by nature so we do not choose to disobey and leave Him > "saved" means safe!!! If we could lose real salvation, we would not be safe. But salvation includes becoming holy > Hebrews 12:14 > because of being "one spirit with Him."
---Bill_willa6989 on 3/25/11


Our ETERNAL life is in the eternal one Jesus Christ.

Yes it is Christ, who was for-ordained, the Chief Corner stone, ELECT and precious. We are built up with HIM and are build upon that ROCK, hidden with God in Chrst. To say you were already IN CHRIST and He in you before the foundation of the world, would be teaching we too are incarnates, taking on flesh. That leads to a whole other can of worms. Mormons also believe they existed prior as angels, taking on flesh. Mormons got this belief from Calvinists false doctrine of preexistance.

When I join the NY Yankees, I become a member of the ELETE NY Yankee team. Once inside, I am owen by the NY Yankees. I am not THE NY Yankees, but a member of the Body.
---kathr4453 on 3/25/11


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Jasheradan, your analogy has holes. The person going through the door does not become "elect" What it proves is that he was one of the elect.
Another story is:

"All of the elect are chosen by God from the foundation of the world, and when they are born they are born lost, because all descendants of Adam are born lost. When he is made alive to Christ, by grace, and given faith, and walks through the door, he gives evidence that he was one of the elect from the foundation of the world."

That is a true story check
1. Eph. 1:4 Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world"
2. Eph. 2:5 "even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ"
---Mark_V. on 3/25/11


Do you believe that if you are eternally saved one day you can loose your eternal salvation the next day?

We will eternally be saved when jesus returns and we are changed to be as he is:

Romans 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our SALVATION NEARER than when we believed.

If you salvationis NEARER it means you do not have it yet.
We claim it BY FAITH that someday we will have it BUT:

1 Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
---francis on 3/25/11


---Jasheradan on 3/24/11 your analogy is very very good.

---mima on 3/25/11


Paul, first, let me say that I love you, and you have a right to your opinions, but you see things, the way you quoted, because you give no credit to Christ who lives in the lives of believers. You see them as been along, on their own. As if God saved them, and abandoned them to the wolves so they can be lost. The world thinks like that, not any genuine believer.
Second, the doctrines of Predestination did not come from the messengers that teach them, they come from Scripture. Everyone wants to blame those who teach the doctrines as if they invented them. They are written all over the Word of God, only those who oppose them, go right past them as if they were never there because they don't reconcile to their believes.
---Mark_V. on 3/25/11


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Paul part 2: concerning responsibility, you too are responsible for rejecting what is written in the Word of God. What you do, what you think, what you will say and do in the future has already been ordained by God. There is nothing He does not know already. People try to strip God of His attributes but no matter how much they try, it will be as God has ordained it to be. Many don't like that, they want independence from God. They don't want Him to be Ruler on the Throne, they want their freedom. That is a natural instinct for sinful man. It is when the lost come to Christ that he is depended upon God for all things. Why? Because the Spirit lives within him. That doesn't stop his responsibility, but the Spirit helps him in making right choices.
---Mark_V. on 3/25/11


If a person understands this scripture, Romans 8:1,
" There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." They'll understand that they cannot lose their salvation if they are saved. Really it is very simple. No condemnation means nothing can come against you. Nothing(nor no one) can condem you!!!!
---mima on 3/25/11


Trey, My answer to your question is no, i do not. Jesus saves, and as He has said "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand." "Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them."
---josef on 3/25/11


Ive always loved this analogy:

A man stops before an open door. Above the doorway a sign reads "Whosoever will may come!". So he enters the doorway and as he turns around to look where he came from he once again notices a sign above that side of the door which reads "Chosen in Him before the foundation of the world".

Jesus Christ IS the Elect of God. If we enter thru the door which is Christ, we are elect/chosen as well because we are "hidden with Christ in God".
---Jasheradan on 3/24/11


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i believe there are many who bank on their own understanding of salvation, who are not yet delivered.
---aka on 3/25/11


It is assumed by most that being "good" is part of the demand for eternal life. But Romans 4:4-5

"Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness."

works intermingled with faith is empty for eternal salvation.

Also, INHERITING the kingdom is not the same as ENTERING the kingdom. An inheritance is a POSSESSION. Those believers who live ungodly will not OWN anything in the kingdom.

Lest you think that offers a license to sin, Paul was accused of the same (Rom 3:8)
---James_L on 3/25/11


We won't know if we're really eternally saved until we are in the eternal Kingdom.

In the meantime, we are BEING saved.
---Cluny on 3/24/11

Good Point!!
---David on 3/25/11


I feel (IMHO) that a lot of these doctrines that are being defended here reek of zero accountability on mans part.

Once saved always saved:
God alone in responsible for salvation with no maintaining ones self.

Salvation through faith alone:
You play no part in your salvation through your actions.

Predestination:
Your already hand selected by God before you were created to go to Heaven or hell.

No free will:
God has ordained everything to happen so just set back and enjoy the ride or spend eternity in hell at Gods hand.

Honestly guys, where is mans responsibility in all of this?

Or accountability for that matter?

God Bless, Paul
---paul on 3/25/11


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Jasheradan, I want to correct you for your statement when you said:

" What sends a man to hell is rejecting that truth."

That is not what sends man to hell, all descendants of Adam are heading to hell already, by the curse. They have been condemned already. Receiving Christ as their Savior saves them from that condemnation. It takes a supernatural act of God to stop them from heading to hell.
---Mark_V. on 3/25/11


But it seems to me, the majority of Christians cluster somewhere near the middle on this.
They usually don't join the argument, here. (they may fear being attacked from both sides!).
---Donna66 on 3/24/11


Interestingly, many christians are neither calvin or arninian, meaning that teh middle of this argument is not teh middle at all.

There is a third explaination.

The third explaination is not that of the middle. And THAT is what does need to be proclaimed...not avoided....by either side who want to bash. That's called the TRUE Gospel of Grace, based on correct Covenants, and knowing those covenants.
---kathr4453 on 3/25/11


You know I really don't know the correct answer, but can I just say what about Saul? Wasn't he saved and didn't God allow an evil spirit to come upon him? What about Judas? Or did Judas just never really know Jesus? What about Solomon? What about Absolem, David's son? I think it takes alot to lose your salvation, like turning your heart completely away from the Lord God Almighty and getting into deep sin and never repenting. Isn't there a scripture that says to those who know the right thing to do and don't do it, that is sin? This is a great question to search out in the scriptures.
---Donna5535 on 3/25/11


// Hyper-calvinists change the nature of God making him a sadist and Armenians claim the work of Jesus Christ on their behalf simply isnt good enough.//

Jasheradan---Thank you for your crystal-clear and reasonable explanation! On these blogs, the subject has produced much frothing at the mouth by some who use every excuse to reopen the controversy.
Both extremes want to say that they are right... the other is wrong and there can be no meeting in the middle.

But it seems to me, the majority of Christians cluster somewhere near the middle on this.
They usually don't join the argument, here. (they may fear being attacked from both sides!).
---Donna66 on 3/24/11


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//Really? Are you blind?// Christan

And if you think you can see, christan, be careful.

Jesus said, "Because you say, 'I see,' your sin remains."
---Cluny on 3/24/11


//Really? Are you blind?// Christan

Now was that really necessary?

Romans 9 is one of the most controverial chapters in the Bible. Are you really prepared to ignore all the other scriptures showing Gods good will for man and paint him a sadist just so you can have eternal security? The fact that the Father draws men to Jesus by the Holy Spirit doesnt save them. They must put their trust in Him. The Bible never says "The just shall live by faith... in the election". Its in Christ.

Its clearly written in numerous scriptures that Christ paid the penalty for the sins of all men. What sends a man to hell is rejecting that truth.
---Jasheradan on 3/24/11


\\Im not necessarily siding with the Armenians.\\

Please. We've been over this before.

The word you are looking for is ARMINIAN (no E), from the name Jacob Arminius.

Armenian (with an E) is a person from the country of Armenia--whose traditional Church does not agree with Arminianism.
---Cluny on 3/24/11


Jim

I dont know why people insist on reflecting human dispositions onto Christ.

God cannot lie.

Men lie in the name of Jesus all to often though.

Lets reason together.
Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

God does LOVE the WHOLE WORLD.
He did send His only Son.
Now is our responsibility, to believe
If one believes and then falls into unbelief what does that make him?
And eternal life is everlasting so where is the question of Gods part and mans part?

Ro 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar,
God Bless, Paul
---paul on 3/24/11


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"What the Bible does NOT say is that some are PREdestined to eternal damnation." Jasheradan

Really? Are you blind?

Romans 9:17 "For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth."

20,21 "Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction"

Jacob was predestined for eternal salvation. Esau, Pharaoh predestined to eternal damnation.
---christan on 3/24/11


Not all Calvinists are off the mark, Samuel. Just the ones who believe in what is known as DOUBLE-predestination.

The Bible clearly says that believers are foreknown, predestined, called, justified, sanctified and soon to be glorified. It is supposed to give us assurance of our salvation, but some take it a little farther and use it in an evil way, to exalt themselves above the rest of man. A doctrine of arrogance and biggotry.

What the Bible does NOT say is that some are PREdestined to eternal damnation. God clearly states in Ezek 33:11 he has no pleasure in death.
---Jasheradan on 3/24/11


Im not necessarily siding with the Armenians. The reason why Calvinists and Armenians have fought for over 400 years is because they are both wrong to an extent.

The truth lies in the middle. They are neither both completely right nor both completely wrong.

Hyper-calvinists change the nature of God making him a sadist and Armenians claim the work of Jesus Christ on their behalf simply isnt good enough.
---Jasheradan on 3/24/11


Samuel, you use a verse from Scripture to justify that God loves everyone, do yourself a favor and try to confirm it with another Scripture. Using 2 Peter 3:9 to justify universal atonement is a lie, because "but that all should come to repentance" merely are those "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." John 6:37

Did the Father give Jacob to Jesus? Yes. Did the Father give Esau to Christ? No. In this two lives your universal atonement is contradicted. God chose to save Jacob and not Esau. What more the multitudes that He created. This isn't Calvin's theology but the very teaching of God clearly taught in Romans 9.
---christan on 3/24/11


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\\Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
These words sound like future to me//
His wrath is future, right after the catching away of the Church(1Thess.4)
---michael_e on 3/24/11


Calvanist believe that GOD chooses who will be saved and lost. That he forces some to be saved and lets other be lost because he only loves some. He hates most people.

They Teach Total depravity, Unconditional election, Limited atonement, Irrestiable grace and Perserverence of the Saint. Those who believe Once saved always saved adopt the last point but often reject the other four. I reject all because GOD loves everyone.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
---Samuel on 3/24/11


our Justification = past
our Sanctification = now
our Glorification = future

All things are kept by the power of God. He who has begun a good work in you will perform it unto the day of Jesus Christ.
---Jasheradan on 3/24/11


\\Romans 5:9
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.\\

These words sound like future to me.
---Cluny on 3/24/11


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Paul...if you can loose your salvation then Jesus lied in John 3:16.
Eternal life is life without end, never to cease. If you can loose your salvation then it was never everlasting.
---JIM on 3/24/11


//Those look like past tense words to me.
---Jasheradan on 3/24/11//
Amen
Col.1: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Phil. 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven, from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
---michael_e on 3/24/11


In Galatians 3:2, Paul is addressing such as those who had received the "Spirit"...
Galatians 5:16 "This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh."

So then, receiving the Spirit does not automatically equals or guarantees "Walking in the Spirit".

Not walking in the Spirit equals the fulfilment of "the lust of the flesh".

Galatians 5:19-21 ends with a warning, "... that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."

Do the math.
---Nana on 3/24/11


God chose who would and who would not be among the Elect prior to the creation process Billions of years ago. God had total fore knowledge of every action a and inaction you would ever take. If there was any question that you would fall away from God he would have never selected you to start with. God never ever throws someone out of his family. No one can ever be saved now as your salvation was predetermined when God chose the Elect God gives his Grace to the Elect at an appropriate time in their lives and it is irrespirable. So if you are in you are in and if you are out your are out. You can't change anything.
---Blogger9211 on 3/24/11


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Cluny wrote,"We won't know if we're really eternally saved until we are in the eternal Kingdom.

In the meantime, we are BEING saved."

However the Bible in first John 5:13 says the following,

"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God, that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
---mima on 3/24/11


Eph 2

5)Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved,)

6)And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Those look like past tense words to me.
---Jasheradan on 3/24/11

Mark 16:16 Jesus says whoever believes and is baptized will be saved.

Acts 15:11 - we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus.

Rom. 5:9-10 - since we are justified by His blood, we shall be saved.

Those look like future events to me.
---Ruben on 3/24/11


Eph 2

5)Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved,)

6)And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Those look like past tense words to me.
---Jasheradan on 3/24/11


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