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Works Grace Or Faith Save

Is eternal salvation by works, grace, or faith?

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 ---trey on 3/23/11
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Begging for Grace AKA Mercy is NOT a work, but a heartfilled prayer. Pray is also not a work (just in case you're thinking about that). Work is performed only having genuine love for others - and helping them. When you offer a dring to a thirsty person you are alos helping Jesus by showing love - genuine and sincere love (as in the verb form).
---Steveng on 3/29/11


Could someone please answer the opposing scripture instead of simply hurling another scripture at it.

By doing so it makes it seems as if Gods Word is contradictory, which it is not, as opposed to explaining why it is misinterpreted.

God Bless, Paul
---paul on 3/29/11


Mark V,

"But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness." (Romans 4:5)

"Who Does Not Work."

But you admit that it would be a work to cry out to God, or beg, or whatever you want to call it.

"Who Justifies The Ungodly"

You believe God regenerates a man, and then faith comes, and then justification.

If that is the case, then God wouldn't be justifying the ungodly. Instead, He would be justifying the godly, being already born again before faith.

Right??
---James_L on 3/29/11


Kathr, read what Samuel just said, at least follow what he says for now. Your arguments are foolish.
You said,

"
Yes MarkV and begging for Grace AKA Mercy is a work!


Begging for mercy from Christ for forgiveness is a work that comes because of Grace. A person that has been given grace will beg for mercy not realizing God has already changed his heart. A person that has not been given grace, doesn't care about God or His mercy. They love darkness rather then the light.
---Mark_V. on 3/29/11


Mark, how can you criticize someone for not listening to Calvin's teachings when you havent done it yourself?

You believe in limited atonement and yet Calvin didnt. In The Institutes he writes the following concerning 1 John 2:2:

"Christ suffered for the sins of the whole world, and in the goodness of God is offered unto all men without distinction, His blood being shed, not for a part of the world openly, but for the whole human race..."
---Jasheradan on 3/29/11




Christian

I never said we are not justified by faith or that were not saved by Grace.

What I said is that faith without works is dead therefore works must be mingled with faith.

Some almost make it seem that works are optional for salvation but that is not what scriptures teach.

Paul
---paul on 3/29/11


David Faith results in works or it is not true faith.

The thief on the cross was not able to do any work. However most people cannot make death bed conversions.

All who live after coming to know JESUS will do works. But the works are the result of Love and being saved. The example is why do apple tree's produce apples?
---Samuel on 3/29/11


David, the obvious example of one who didn't "work", Would be the thief on the cross.

But works follow faith. Because someone believes and then performs good works, as is to be expected, does that mean that the works are responsible for his salvation?

What if he didn't really believe in his heart, just decided to do great things to earn God's Favor. Would that be salvation?
---Donna66 on 3/29/11


If by grace, you mean a sort of "militant" compassion that drags some to heaven, surely NOT. As for works, it needn't be taken to mean any kind of work done "more" than what Jesus has already done (coz nothing we do can outdo his). But a holy life doesn't come easy. So work is OK. Faith, without it there is no appropriation of grace or power to do the work God requires. All 3 needed for mankind to not only be saved but also judged.
---hop on 3/29/11


"And if by grace, then it is no longer of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace, otherwise work is no longer work" (Rom. 11:6).
This grace Paul is talking about is not only for Israel, but for the Gentiles as verses 13 indicate.
---Mark_V. on 3/29/11

Yes MarkV and begging for Grace AKA Mercy is a work!

And where did I ever say Grace for gentiles is different than Grace for Jews.

GRACE is CHRIST CRUCIFIED...

God's Riches at Christ's Expense...can not be something we do, or work to achieve, or have to beg for.

---kathr4453 on 3/29/11




Kathr, you should have listened to Calvin. You would know that he taught right from the Word of God. It is you who tries to find a way of changing the meaning God wanted to convey to all of us no matter if you are from Israel or a Gentile. The Grace Scripture speaks of comes from God. Those whom He chooses are the remnant according to Grace.
"And if by grace, then it is no longer of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace, otherwise work is no longer work" (Rom. 11:6).
This grace Paul is talking about is not only for Israel, but for the Gentiles as verses 13 indicate.
---Mark_V. on 3/29/11


Faith is accepting the word of GOD above what we want to do. Accepting that He saves us. ---Samuel on 3/28/11

Samuel
Faith is acting on the word of God, because we believe what God tells us.
This is the way in which Faith is defined in my Bible.

Noah believed God... and he did what God told him to do.
Abraham believed God... and he did what God told him to do.
Etc..etc...etc in (Hebrews 11)
(James 2:21)
"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?"


Can one of you who believes that saving Grace is the "Unmerited favor of God", give one Biblical example of Faith without works?
---David on 3/29/11


Paul, no I did not miss your point because that's what I precisely thought you were saying. I just wanted to confirm if I was right.

I would suggest you read carefully Hebrews 11. You will notice that there's no difference between OT and NT as far as the faith God gives His people is concerned. Because if there was, the writer of Hebrews would have separated this and not teach us what is taught in Hebrews 11, the OT saints who were functioning with faith from God.

And Paul clearly teaches Justification by Faith in Romans and Galations 3 & 4, confirming Hebrews 11. Basically revealing to us what was hidden till the Epistles were written.
---christan on 3/28/11


I remember the first time I saw a pickle barrel.
took me sometime to pick one, because they all looked the same.
Well at lease to me. But never once did I care about what the pickles thought.
I know they were all taken.

For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

I know God can do anything!
---TheSeg on 3/28/11


kathr4453
But isnt he saying exactly that?
I will have mercy on whom i will have mercy?


---TheSeg on 3/27/11
no TheSeg, that is not what scripture teaches about salvation. God does not just randomly pick and chose who He wants to saved based on some bogus sovereign mercy we need to beg for...(markv says we need to beg for mercy)


The MERCY God extended upon a WHOLE NATION , that is Israel, had nothing to do with being Born Again in the first place.

So to use that as the Mercy that we are regenerated by the Holy Spirit( Born Again) and washed is the confusion here.

God had Mercy on Hagar and Ishmael.
---kathr4453 on 3/28/11


We are saved by Grace alone. The OT saints as Paul points out about Abrahan was saved by Grace alone. Only one person has every lived who was good enough through works to be saved. That was JESUS the CHRIST. So if you teach that in the OT they had to be saved by works. Then you are saying they are all lost.

Faith is accpting the word of GOD above what we want to do. Accepting that He saves us.

When we are born again. We are love GOD and love our fellow human beings. Love works to help others and to follow the will of GOD.

In a marriage if each party say they love each other but only act selfishly for what they alone want. Do they love each other?
---Samuel on 3/28/11


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Yes I believe there is a difference between works in the OT and in the NT
Donna66 on 3/25/11/

You missed my point?

God Bless, Paul
---paul on 3/27/11


Paul, you say "Old testament works were the works of the Mosaic law...". Am I to understand that from Moses (who received the Ten Commandments) people were saved because of their obedience of the Mosaic Law? That they attained righteousness from obeying God's Law? Because that's what I understand from your reply.

And you seem to draw a broad black line of salvation between the OT and the NT saints. Please correct me if I erred.
---christan on 3/27/11


kathr4453
But isnt he saying exactly that?
I will have mercy on whom i will have mercy?

I truly believe god through Christ saved everyone.
But I also believe its not everyone who can accept this.
But is it their fault? If God doesnt open a man eyes, can a man open his own eye?
So, is a man at fault for being blind? The man is not at fault. But God isnt at fault either.

Seem to me, the ones who says they see and understand God. But are blind to God are at fault!
For saying they understand and teaching it as so. But not understanding the will of God.
Therefore, has not submitted to God and has not repented of his ways.
---TheSeg on 3/27/11


Is God so impressed with our new faith that he thinks we "deserve" eternal life with Him.? Donna66

1Ti 1:13 -16
16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.

Believe on or have faith in, and no one deserves eternal life, but God is pretty satisfied when we desire it from Him through our Faith.

God Bless, Paul
---paul on 3/27/11


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Kath, thanks for the clarification.
---Warwick on 3/28/11


Warwick, it's Calvin's twisted definition of Grace that gives a twisted definition of unmerited.

Unmerited means I cannot die for my sin or shed my own blood for my sin. I cannot work my way to heaven through teh law or Good works.

THEIR definition of Grace and unmerited favor means God simply picked out who he wanted based on His sovereignty. That is a LIE.

Grace is Christ alone and HIS finished workk upon the cross. I receive by faith that work included not only my sin but the sin of the whole world..and God saying WHOSOEVER will believe and receives the works Of Christ.

Those who REPENT and turn to Christ are in Favor with God.
---kathr4453 on 3/27/11


Christin, I couldn't be fooled by a statement so general...I missed his point anyway. .
I'm not saying that God doesn't reward His children for their obedience. He does.

But what act of man is so worthy that it would impel Jesus to lay down his life and suffer the agony of the cross? He saved us sinners, not because we were good, but because we were lost! To gain salvation, all God asks of us is to have faith (without which it is impossible to please Him.. Heb 11:6). Does that take a lot? Is God so impressed with our new faith that he thinks we "deserve" eternal life with Him.?
Thus "unmerited favor". We live to please Him out of love, not merely obligation. 1Jo 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.
---Donna66 on 3/27/11


Christian

Old testament works were the works of the Mosaic law Galatians 2:16 which were purposed towards righteousness in God which no man could attain. That is why mens righteousness were as filth rags in the OT. Is 64:6

New testament works are the furtherance of Christs covenantal works which He was sent by the Father to accomplish, which subsequently was handed to us in Christs stead.

He was the light of the world while He was here, John 9:5, now that He is gone we are the light of the world, Eph 5:8, not that Christ is not the light source for we are a mere reflection of the light.

We now are no longer as filthy rags, we are the righteousness of God. 2Co 5:21

God Bless, Paul
---paul on 3/27/11


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Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth,
nor of him that runneth,
but of God that sheweth mercy.

Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh,
Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up,
that I might shew my power in thee,
and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy,
and whom he will he hardeneth.
---TheSeg on 3/27/11


Donna66, don't be fooled by "You realize there is a difference between OT works and NT works and the implementation of them." Scripture is complete and Hebrews 11:6 enlighten us that "without faith it is impossible to please him". And we know that "For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God".

Mankind can do all the good works in the world and boast about them, but without "the gift of faith from God", they are like "filthy rags." With "faith from God", good works will follow but we are not to boast. That's what James teaches. That's why God was please with Abel, Noah, Abraham, Moses, etc.
---christan on 3/26/11


Donna
Why do men define Grace as the Unmerited favor of God?
It's because Grace is a gift from God, and they don't believe they need to do anything to receive a gift.

Not entirely true!
Some gifts are received, because we are in the favor of the gift giver.
At Christmas time, don't you give the best gifts to those in your favor?
Why are they... in your favor?
Didn't they do something to be in your favor?

Jesus tells us in (John 14:21) how to gain the favor of God.
In (John 14:23) Jesus tells us of the gift received because of this favor.
---David on 3/26/11


Kath, regarding unmerited favour did we merit the forgiveness available to us because the Creator took upon Himself human flesh and died and rose again, paying the price of our sin?

Maybe I have missed your point but I cannot see how human merit is in any way involved.
---Warwick on 3/26/11


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Does this not plainly tell us that works matter?

So is the same with Christ if we say we believe He's coming to get us, but we don't prepare ourselves.

Imagine telling this person to go be fed and warmed for we have all faith it will happen, and then turn them hungry back into the cold night.

Jas 2:14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food,
16 and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?
17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

---paul on 3/27/11


God is able to make all grace abound toward you, that you, always having all sufficiency in all things, may have an abundance for every good work. 2 Corinthians 9:8
---Kimbe7395 on 3/27/11


"for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls" Romans 9:11

This verse alone defines that salvation is by grace (unmerited) and was covenanted by God (hence the Covenant of Grace).

God did not save Nineveh because of their repentance but rather God has already chosen them (like Jacob) before the foundations of the world to save them. And when God makes a covenant, He is faithful to fulfill His covenant. He fulfills it by giving them His special gift call faith.

If God saved Nineveh because they repented, then God has saved them by their works and not grace.
---christan on 3/27/11


FAITH is a work -

1 THESSALONIANS 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, labor of love, and patience of hope in our LORD JESUS CHRIST in sight of our GOD and FATHER.
---RICHARDC on 3/27/11


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There is no such thing as UNMERITED FAVOR in scripture.

Even Nineveh received mercy/favor not being destroyed out of their repentance. Able RECEIVED FAVOR out of his obedience of a blood sacrifice offered to God. Cain refused a blood sacrifice and did not receive God's favor.

Salvation by Grace is not God's good humor, but based on THOSE who place their faith in Jesus Christ and HIS SHED Blood for the forgivness of sin.
---kathr4453 on 3/26/11


//Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
I think this puts it plainly.
Grace is unmerited favor.
Saving faith does not come from yourself (obviously not if you are a sinner) Salvation is a GIFT.
A "gift" is something you are not required to work for.
---Donna66 on 3/24/11//
Donna, very good, worth repeating
---michael_e on 3/26/11


Let's be perfectly clear here. Paul explains the Abrahamic covenant to the Gentiles in Galatia, and the New Covenant was never mentioned. Therefore salvation for Gentiles is based solely on the Abrahamic Covenant. Now here's the question.

WHERE in the Abrahamic Covenant did God ever tell Abraham that God would pick and choose Certain Gentiles to salvation and choose other Gentiles to Hell?

Where did God ever say to Abrahan, I will null and void yours and make a new one based on my good humor based on a covenant of Grace allowing me to do so?
But the one I swore by My Word to you must be nill and voided first before I can do that?


---kathr4453 on 3/26/11


Donna66, what covenant was Abel under when his sacrifice found FAVOR in God's eyes? Was it not Abels' works of faith that found favor?

What covenant was Abraham under when Righteousness was imputed to him? Neither being under the Law of Moses.

Was the Covenant God made with Abraham done away too?

YOU donna are under the everlasting covenant that was given to Abraham. The Abrahamic Covenant was NEVER done away when the New Covenant came in.
---kathr4453 on 3/26/11


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The ark could have capsized or sprung a leak...had God's hand not been upon it.
---Donna66 on 3/25/11

Donna
For this to happen, wouldn't God have broken his promise to Noah, to save him, if he built the Ark?

Noah is the perfect example, used in the Bible, of someone who was saved by Grace through Faith, his faith was shown by his works.
Noah build the Ark, because he believed God when God told him that he was going to flood the Earth.
This is not my teaching, but is clearly taught in (Hebrews 11:7).

Question:
Would God have saved Noah, if he hadn't built the ark, as God commanded?
If your answer is No, then clearly Noah was saved by Faith, through his works.
---David on 3/26/11


it is the belief in christ that saves,aka faith, john 3-16 for God so loved the world that he gave his only son ,that whosoever would believe shall not perish ,but have everlasting life.
---tom2 on 3/26/11


Donna Part 1

In I Cor 3:13 Paul is teaching immature followers of Christ about committing good works unto God for a reward to come post-judgment. You know lay up treasures in Heaven.

This speaks more to what kind of works to work not to whether works are optional or not concerning salvation.

Lack of works in a Christians life is rebellion against God which God will not stand for.

The reason I appreciate mans accountability to God so much is that I see Christians often doing their own thing with hardly any consideration to God and what He is trying to do through them.
---paul on 3/26/11


Kathr4453-- I don't think you understand the "Covenant of Grace" at all. It is in opposition to the "Covenent of the Law" Grace=NT Law=OT

In the OT men were made righteous by the law.
In the NT men are made righteous by Grace, not by following the law.

I don't care where the terms come from. They are biblical Hbr 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. They express a sound concept
---Donna66 on 3/25/11

Donna Noah, OT found Grace..you said it.

The New Covenant is not the Covenant of Grace.There is NO COVENANT CALLED The Covenant of Grace.
---kathr4453 on 3/26/11


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Paul, I didn't deduce that James said that (he didn't!) I apparently transposed the two words where he says "faith without works is dead".

Perhaps I didn't catch my mistake because I DO believe that works without faith don't really count for much. I quoted this earlier: 1Cr 3:13-15 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire, and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

Yes I believe there is a difference between works in the OT and in the NT.
---Donna66 on 3/25/11



Donna

How exactly do you deduce that the second chapter of James teaches that works are dead?

Jas 2:24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

God Bless, Paul
---paul on 3/25/11


Donna

You realize their is a difference between OT works and NT works and the implementation of them.

Paul
---paul on 3/25/11


agree with your last post Trav.
It seems like no matter what doctrine people follow, there are names of men needed to prop up the teachings of Jesus Christ.
---David on 3/24/11

We could sit,eat and sup David.
I've looked thoroughly at SDA. Many attributes...men find worthy,perhaps GOD. Let us meet/pray/eat without.."Labels"...and with "GOD".
I leave all men teachings...for one Teacher....One GOD. He has multiple unified witness in scripture....men seldom do.

I've found my freedom from ALL, organized,by men...institutions.
Galatians 5:1
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
---Trav on 3/25/11


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(1) Faith is our loving and trusting union with God in His Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 6:17). Paul speaks of "faith working through love" (in Galatians 5:6).
(2) In this union of faith, God's love works to effect us to become "as He is . . . in this world," "that we may have boldness in the day of judgment" (in 1 John 4:17). This action of God's love in us is grace.
(3) The works of this love are essential, then, because in love's works we exercise to become stronger in this love which makes us right with God ("justified") the way His love is so right > "You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only." (James 2:24)
---Bill_willa6989 on 3/25/11


//If works are a product of faith as opposed to an ingredient in faith then why does James 2:20 teach us that faith without works are dead.//
What I said was: works are a "product" of salvation,not an "ingredient" in salvation. (i.e. You don't need works in order to be saved)


James explains:
Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. In other words it's IMPOSSIBLE to prove faith just by claiming you have it. But your life,your works, are the ONLY proof of your faith. Works alone show nothing (they are "dead"). And a "christian" without works, is likely not even Christian.
---Donna66 on 3/25/11


David, how does one receive grace through faith? That's not what Ephesians 2:8 is saying. "For by grace are ye saved" Grace means God's work (mercy) in you that you are saved. "through faith" and His work will be accompanied by faith, which is His gift. For without this "faith", "no one can please God". If God does not work in you, there will be no faith given. Salvation from start to finish is all God's work, that's what grace is, period.

Noah, just as it was with Jacob, the same is said of all the saints received salvation by the grace of God. No one can earn salvation.
---christan on 3/25/11


David, I somewhat disagree that Grace is always received by faith. If you are alive and breathing, you are evidence of God's Grace (You don't think you are "entitled" do you?) An OT verse says "it is by the mercies of the Lord we are not consumed" (or words to that effect).

Salvation is similar, it's there for the taking. We do nothing to deserve it. But we can reach reach out and accept it.

Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. It wasn't the ark Noah built that saved him and his family. It was the Lord. The ark could have capsized or sprung a leak...had God's hand not been upon it.
---Donna66 on 3/25/11


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Kathr4453-- I don't think you understand the "Covenant of Grace" at all. It is in opposition to the "Covenent of the Law" Grace=NT Law=OT

In the OT men were made righteous by the law.
In the NT men are made righteous by Grace, not by following the law.

I don't care where the terms come from. They are biblical Hbr 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. They express a sound concept
---Donna66 on 3/25/11


Kath4453 -- Grace is...GRACE. Unmerited favor. Freely bestowed on those who have faith. Most Christians see this (even, gasp, "Calvinists"). Why add embellishments to the simple concept. If something else besides Grace is needed...Grace is no longer Grace. No need to even UNDERSTAND:

//Identification with Christ in death and resurrection, also Hebrews 10, through the veil, that is to say His Flesh, and the fellwoship of His sufferings that accompany THIS GRACE//
---Donna66 on 3/25/11


To understand the false teaching of calvinism is to understand the true meaning of Grace ( or vice versa)...Galatians 2:20-21 says nothing about God graceously picking who He wants. Yet, Calvins definition of Grace is just that. They have made up what is called the Covenant of Grace...and their meaning of that is God Graceously chooses who He sants to save.

Not only is there NO SUCH thing as "the Covenant of Grace"...(a strictly Calvin invention,) but a Grace that totally deny's the truth of our access into this Grace RE: Identification with Christ in death and resurrection, also Hebrews 10, through the veil, that is to say His Flesh, and the fellwoship of His sufferings that accompany THIS GRACE we have access into.
---kathr4453 on 3/25/11


spend your time on Cnet quoting verses that pertain, and you may get to the right answer.

spend time on Cnet never acting on what you know, and you will definitely get to the right answer on the wrong side.
---aka on 3/24/11


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Donna 66 speaks the truth, Scripture clearly declares in Ephesians 2:8
"For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"
---christan on 3/24/11

Christan and Donna
Can we receive Grace without Faith?
If we could, then I would agree with the premise that Saving Grace is the Unmerited favor of God, but that's not what the verse says.
It says that Grace comes Through Faith.
Therefore, Faith becomes the requirement to receive Gods saving Grace.
If there is a requirement, then it can not be Unmerited.

We are given the example in the New Testament of Noah, as one who received Gods Saving Grace.
Was it Unmerited Grace which saved Noah?
---David on 3/25/11


Donna

If works are a product of faith as opposed to an ingredient in faith then why does James 2:20 teach us that faith without works are dead.

Just as the body without breath is dead, that means the body needs and ingredient to sustain life.

Arrogant prideful works are of the flesh and earthly, our works are to be spiritual and Heavenly.

Continuing the WORKS that Christ has started.

God Bless, Paul
---paul on 3/25/11


Our faith is in Jesus Christ, by which we have access into this grace. Grace is Christ in you.

So faith gives us access into this Grace of Christ in you, and you in Him, who He alone produces the Works that were there to manifest through us, God Had already stated these works would be HIS WORKMANSHIP He forordained from before the foundation of the world, conforming us to the Image of Jesus Christ.
---kathr4453 on 3/25/11


-- Trey :

Brother, YES !!!!!!
---ShawnM.T. on 3/24/11


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Faith, then grace, then works in that order.

There is only one word that will get you into heaven or eternal life - love (as in the verb form). It is the ultimate commandment spoken of by Jesus. It's this love that we need to show deeply for love covers a multitude of sins. Christians need to offer genuine love when serving others. Attending to the needs of others is doing it for Jesus. True freedom is serving one another in love.
---Steveng on 3/24/11


//But the fact that we are called to good works is not a coincidental to salvation.//
I agree. Good works are expected to follow salvation. However, they are a "product" of salvation, not an "ingredient" in salvation. Salvation changes a person on the inside. If it does not, it is something else besides Salvation...a spiritual "high" maybe, or an emotional reaction without faith.

OR if the "good works" do not come from the heart, (but are done for prideful reasons) they are not of God..1Cr 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: , because it shall be revealed by fire, and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
---Donna66 on 3/24/11


The Father of creation has done many "works" for humanity including creation, salvation, blessings and spiritual education from His "spirit" (these are all the "works of God").

These works were all done graciously (expecting nothing in return).

These works were not done IMPERIALISTICALLY (they are a FREE gift).

"all flesh shall see the salvation of God." (Luke 3:6).

The works that His Son did on the cross (the glorification of Jesus was also when God's spirit was given to us) are the only works that are required for the salvation of ALL flesh.

John 7:39

"for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified".
---more_excellent_way on 3/24/11


The O.T. means of purification needed to be repeated continuously, but now we have the FINAL purification in Jesus.

Hebrews 1:3
"made purification for sins...".

Even though salvation is for "ALL", we must still EACH "accept" personally (personal relationship).

We must believe (have faith) that the "works" that Jesus did while on earth (the cross and the giving of His spirit) are completely sufficient for the purification of our souls (those works were done GRACIOUSLY, not IMPERIALISTICALLY). If we really are comfortable trusting that God's works are sufficient for our salvation, the attitudes of a peaceful spirit will show and be revealed in our lives ("manifest in" us).
---more_excellent_way on 3/24/11


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For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth,)

through the grace given unto me!
as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
not of works, but of him that calleth

So your work, is to have faith, in the grace of God given to us!
Funny how even your work, is given to you.
---TheSeg on 3/24/11


I agree that we are not justified by our works for the Blood of Christ is our justification.
JUST-IF-Y just -if- I -never sinned

But the fact that we are called to good works is not a coincidental to salvation.

We are commanded to good works, so lack thereof is rebellion against God which will land you on the wrong side of judgment.
Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Re 2:5 is illustrating works are a prerequisite to maintaining Gods presence in us.

If faith is required ( Heb 11:6) then so are works to exhibit the faith. Jas 2:20

Paul
---paul on 3/24/11


Gasp!

Where in the Bible does it say God "saves a man first thEn applies faith". That is salvation before faith in Jesus Christ. Talk about heresy.

Gods adds to our faith. That much is indeed scriptural. That is why you only need faith as small as a mustard seed.
---Jasheradan on 3/24/11


Grace-God did not have to do this, but we can not. We deserve death, but the grace of God gives us life through His Son. This is a vertical flow down to us.
Faith-We can only be granted life if we accepted this gift of grace and believe on Him whom He has sent. This is a vertical flow up to Him.
Works-Through the grace of God, our faith in His promises, and the confirming Holy Spirit, we produced good works pleasing to Him. This is the evidence that those around you see, witnessing to unbelievers and edifying believers. This is a horizontal flow throughout the brotherhood of saints and overflowing into the carnal world. You will have springs of living water flowing and overflowing through you.
---micha9344 on 3/24/11


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Donna 66 speaks the truth, Scripture clearly declares in Ephesians 2:

8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"
It's God's grace (For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Philippians 2:13) that saves the man first. He than applies faith, that enables the sinner to repent to God (the sinner then becomes justified by faith) and believe in Christ. And all this is a gift.

9 "Not of works, lest any man should boast."
Salvation cannot be earned by doing good works. Clearly taught in Romans 3 & 4.
---christan on 3/24/11


Samuel: I'll second that

Faith and grace are all we need, but we show then though our works of love
---Peter on 3/24/11


We are saved by Grace alone. Through faith alone. But it is shown by love of GOD and love of our fellow humans.

Love has to act or it is not love. Those acts are works of love to others.
---Samuel on 3/24/11


more_excellent_way* JESUS'S blood shed on the cross is what saved us, NOT any of our efforts/deeds. JESUS did all the "works" (the "works of God")...

Then why do so many believe, that you have to accept Jesus Christ as your personnel Saviour in order to be save? If he did all this for us!

more_excellent_way* cross is what saved us, NOT any of our efforts/deeds.

But then you write *(they must "manifest" a change in our behavior/attitudes).*
---Ruben on 3/24/11


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Salvation is by grace alone. "... that he gave his son to die on cross that none should perish". Paul says all of his works are rubbish to knowing Christ.
---Scott on 3/24/11


Salvation by the Grace of God Acts 2 v 38, you must have faith to start. Works has it's place, for he & she, Matt. 24 v 13 Is works also.
---Lawrence on 3/24/11


We are not saved by/through any effort OF OUR OWN (VERY IMPORTANT TO LEARN).

JESUS'S blood shed on the cross is what saved us, NOT any of our efforts/deeds. JESUS did all the "works" (the "works of God")...

"Then they said to him, "What must we do, to be doing the works of God?" (John 6:28).

The "works" performed by Jesus must show a CHANGE in how we behave and think (they must "manifest" a change in our behavior/attitudes).

John 9:3
"that the works of God might be made manifest".

The Lord is now "shaking" His church.

Hebrews 12:27
"in order that what cannot be shaken may remain".

Have faith in HIS WORKS.
---more_excellent_way on 3/24/11


Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

I think this puts it plainly.
Grace is unmerited favor.
Saving faith does not come from yourself (obviously not if you are a sinner) Salvation is a GIFT.
A "gift" is something you are not required to work for.

(I caused at one person to rail at me last time I called Grace "unmerited favor". But that very language is used to define Grace in much of protestantism as well as by Merriam Webster.)
---Donna66 on 3/24/11


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eternal life is Gods gift to us through faith in Jesus Christ.
---JIM on 3/24/11


As I just answered a similar question elsewhere, who said that these three were incompatible?

This is really a non-question.

St. Paul already answered it in 1 Cor 13: "Now there abides faith, hope, and love, these three. But the greatest is love."
---Cluny on 3/24/11


Why cant it be a combination?

The Grace God shed upon us, the faith to believe it and our works to bare much fruit.

God Bless, Paul
---paul on 3/24/11


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