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Everything Made For God

Does Proverbs 16:4, "The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." Speak of predestination (and or Calvinism).

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 ---mima on 3/28/11
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Yes, God would rather men turn and live. However we dont have the POWER to change our ways. That is why we call (by our will) upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for HIS power and forgiveness. He has the power to forgive sins. HE has been given all power in heaven and earth.

He died to replace the old testament laws of sacrifice (Hebrews). He fulfilled every sacrifice by his death. The passover, the sin offering, the peace offering, all of it.

His resurrection ensures us that the price of sin has been paid and His power to change is available to all who call upon his name.

All who receive Him as Lord and Savior are given the POWER to become the sons of God, just as scripture declares.
---Jasheradan on 4/8/11


"Christan, you conveniently left part of the verse out...He would rather them TURN FROM THEIR WAY AND LIVE! Which means God is willing to forgive IF they turn back to Him!" Jasheradan

Okay, let's go with what you say. God commanded the wicked to "turn from their way and live!", are you saying that man has the ability to fulfill this command of God? If yes, then Christ's death at Calvary was a total waste of His time.

What did He die for since you say that man can "turn from their way and live!" If you are right, there's no need to believe in Jesus Christ, right? Just believe in yourself since you can turn from your own wicked ways. So you really think you believe in Christ?
---christan on 4/8/11


Allan part 2: Theologians call this saving grace as the manifestation of God's love and mercy toward sinful men, (2 Cor. 8:9) who are already heading to hell by the fall of Adam. God's essential nature includes both love (1 John 4:16), manifested in mercy and grace, and holiness (1 John 1:5), manifested in righteous judgment of sin. God cannot display His love until sin has been judged. God is able to freely save lost men (Rom. 3:24). Grace functions totally apart from human merit or works, it rest completely in Christ (Eph. 2:8,9). Divine Grace provides not only salvation but security. This is accomplished by the continuation of the divine work of grace despite the believers imperfections.
---Mark_V. on 4/8/11


The Great and Terrible Day of The Lord's Jericho 1-7 Trumpets as written in Revelation for the days are evil.

When was the Lord going to love 'enemies' who were divided concerning something to find who would stand in the vyings for The Reward?

To the third and forth generation: 1/3(1/4)x = .08333... x

8% the first Day and all things are His, so, 8%(1/5) = .01666... : 1% = 10%x10%x1

1/1x(1/2)x(1/3)x(1/4)x(1/5)x(1/6)x(1/7)x(1/7)returning double to the iota = 1/35,280... = .0000283446712
---johannes_davished on 4/8/11


Mark, that entire passage is about Israel.

1) I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2)God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

3)Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars, and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

4)But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

5)Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
---Jasheradan on 4/8/11




Mark V: Part 1:

The first part of the verse contained the clue as to the meaning of the text quoted. "Even so then..." could equally be written as: In the same as before. In light of that, the verse is not describing ultimate salvation, but it is making comparison between the larger Jewish groups who were already chosen or elected, and a remnant, within the tribes, who remain faithful by the grace of God.

You and I would accept that the Absolutely Holy God cannot have fellowship with sinful man, regardless of mans efforts to make himself acceptable.
---Allan on 4/8/11


God did not make anybody evil, people choose to be evil rather than choose good. lit.Hb: "Yhwh has made all things for himself: yes, even the day of evil for the wicked." Proverbs 16:4.
---Eloy on 4/8/11


The Great and Terrible Day of The Lord's Jericho 1-7 Trumpets as written in Revelation for the days are evil.

When was the Lord going to love 'enemies' who were divided concerning something to find who would stand in the vyings for The Reward?

To the third and forth generation: 1/3(1/4)x = .08333... x

8% the first Day and all things are His, so, 8%(1/5) = .01666... : 1% = 10%x10%x1
---johannes_davished on 4/8/11


Allan, as to your questions, lets define grace first with Scripture.
"Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace" We first learn that right now, there is a remnant. And that remnant is according to the election of Grace. "And if by grace, then it is no longer of works" No works we "the remnant" does merit the grace of God. "Otherwise grace is no longer grace" If it took man's works to be saved, then you could not call it Grace.
God did not choose this remnant because of its foreseen faith, or good works, or spiritual worthiness, or racial descent, "but solely because of His grace (Deut. 7:7,8, Eph. 2:8,9, 2 Tim. 1:9).
---Mark_V. on 4/8/11


The Great and Terrible Day of The Lord's Jericho 1-7 Trumpets as written in Revelation for the days are evil.

When was the Lord going to love 'enemies' who were divided concerning something to find who would stand in the vyings for The Reward?
---johannes_davished on 4/8/11




Christan, you conveniently left part of the verse out...He would rather them TURN FROM THEIR WAY AND LIVE! Which means God is willing to forgive IF they turn back to Him!

You cant compare the death of Jesus Christ to the death of sinners. The death of sinners does NOT save anyone from hell. It serves no purpose since Jesus died for all men! His death did serve a purpose! Apples and oranges.

YES, the Father took pleasure in the death of the Son! And the Son was happy to do the will of the Father! It was an act of love towards all mankind! It was Gods pleasure to take our sin upon himself and purchase eternal life for us!
---Jasheradan on 4/8/11


Jasheradan, many times I've been corrected. I accept correction. If I'm wrong on something, I do want someone to correct me. I'm not here for me, but to speak for the Truth whom I know. You don't have to agree on the Truth. I know how it is when someone speaks about the Truth, people walk out or get angry. It has happen to me many times when I bring Christ into the conversation. Christ is the Truth. I have no quarrels with you yet you answer for Allan. You said,

"If you expect others to respect your opinion based on the scripture you give"
I don't expect others to respect my opinion, they should love me already, I do expect others to respect the Word of God if they are saved. Otherwise I assume they don't really care.
---Mark_V. on 4/7/11


Jasheradan, you have a problem understanding the difference between purpose and tempt. Indeed, God does not take pleasure (only a sadist does and God is not a sadist) in the destruction of the wicked but make no mistake, He has purposed them to eternal death to demonstrate His Holy justice. Did He take pleasure in the death of Christ? And yet, we are told in Isaiah 53:10, "Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him, he hath put him to grief", He purposed it so that His people will have eternal life in Christ.

"The wages of sin is death" and Christ fulfilled this Holy judgement on behalf of His people and not for everyone outside of election.
---christan on 4/7/11


"It was only a correction"

Maybe you need the correction. What says that you arent wrong? Scripture? Others here have given scripture as well.

Only Jesus Christ had the right to claim everything He taught was absolute Truth. He understood the scriptures perfectly. He was God. He wrote them.

If you expect others to respect your opinion based on the scripture you give, you might try offering that same respect to them when they give scripture.

People come here to give their opinion based on what they have read in scripture, not to be "corrected" by people who foolishly believe they have nothing else to learn.
---Jasheradan on 4/7/11


Allan, first of all, I answered your answer with respect to you. Jasheradan thinks that it was without respect, but I respect both of you. It was only a correction. And debating matters of faith is very important so long as those discussing matters of faith don't take it personal. Any one point in Scripture taken wrong can lead to many more Scriptures taken wrong. You do not have to believe what I write, it is only for your information and others who are looking for the Truth. I will answer you questions later today.
---Mark_V. on 4/7/11


Mark V:

Perhaps, we should define the words that we use. For example, what is the Bible's definition for Grace.

And it seems that you agree that the Bible teaches that Adam's disobedience imputes sin to all members of the human race. If we agree on that then what did the obedience of Jesus Christ do for the human race? Further, since no man is righteous and no man comes to Jesus except the Father draws him, how does anyone come to Christ? Through the Grace of God.

For the Bible says that God's Grace is much more potent than any and all sins. (Romans 5:20)

And Romans 5:8 makes it clear that Christ paid for the sins of all men before any man would called on God.
---Allan on 4/6/11


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That was written to Mark
---Jasheradan on 4/6/11


Jasheradan:

There is no intent to make you or anyone else feel less about anything. And I have no desire to created debate for debate sake. I am hoping that we can have an honest, rational and open discussion about matters that are clearly important to all people of the world.
---Allan on 4/6/11


//Allan, you were doing real good until you misinterpreted the passages when you said//

I'm sorry but do you believe you are Allan's tutor?

There is also no need to act as though I dont know of man's condition because of Adam. You act as though everyone else is an idiot because they dont agree with you. That will produce a hostile response.

And yes if all men are lost and the gospel teaches men of God's love and desire to have a relationship with them and you turn around and tell them Christ didnt die for everyone, you cause them to doubt Gods love for them. That is leading people away from Christ. You know good and well it is. Are you a wolf or a sheep?
---Jasheradan on 4/6/11


Allan, you were doing real good until you misinterpreted the passages when you said:

"Righteousness is imputed to all men."

God never imputed righteousness to all men. If He had everyone would be righteous before God and no one would be going to hell. The passages in Romans 5:17-21, cannot possibly refer to every single individual since Scripture tells us that "Salvation is only for those who exercise faith in Jesus Christ" (Rom. 1:16,17, 3:22,28, 4:5,13).
There's only one way into the kingdom of God. Rather like the word "many" in v. 15, Paul is using "all" with two different meanings for the sake of parallelism, a common practice in the Hebrew O.T.
---Mark_V. on 4/6/11


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True, mankind is utterly unable to do anything about its sinfulness. However, the Grace of God dealt with that situation perfectly. So by the disobedience of Adam, the entire human race was plunged into sin and death. So that a man is a sinner, before he actually commits a sin. However, by the obedience of Jesus, Righteousness is imputed to all men. So that where sin abounded, Grace did much more abound. (Romans 5:17-20) Therefore, God did the most for us while we were at our worst place spiritually. (Romans 5:8) And the goodness of God is never dependent on us or in response to us. That is, God is not good because He does 'good' things. God is good because He is God! That makes all the difference in the world.
---Allan on 4/5/11


Jasheradan, there is no body leading anyone away from Christ. They are all already heading to hell for they are descendants of Adam. We don't know who is in the lead, but they are all already heading that way unless God does a supernatural act in their lives. None have power within themselves to change their own hearts, or give themselves sight to see, ears to hear. They have all been condemned already.
---Mark_V. on 4/5/11


My apologies. I've never met a man named Christan before so I assumed you were female.

If a completely sovereign god desires that a man be evil and go to hell, when that man is tempted into sin (by whatever vessel) it is still God's hand behind it! That is blasphemy.

You are essentially accusing God of making men evil and burning them in eternal fire for his own pleasure. Apparently the message in Ezekiel didnt sink in. He WILL do what He wants to do, but He will not violate his own nature. Who are you to say He doesnt offer salvation to the repentant when He has done so for 1000s of years?

God would rather men repent and be saved. He has said so. If you teach men otherwise you are leading them away from Christ.
---Jasheradan on 4/4/11


Jasheradan, how does saying God purposed Pharaoh to reject and rebel against Him to do with what James taught in his epistle. Are you saying that purposed and being tempted has the same meaning?

When Israel went into slavery, this is precisely what Isaiah declared, "For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?" Isaiah 14:27

Is Isaiah also blaspheming God and blind? You do not know me personally or even met me, so don't assume that my gender is a ma'am. You give me an impression that you're a sexist.
---christan on 4/4/11


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//God purposed that Pharaoh will reject and rebel against Him if you understand Isaiah.//Christan

Ma'am you speak blasphemy according to scripture. That is why you are blind.

James 1

13)Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

14)But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away OF HIS OWN LUST, and enticed.

15)Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

16)DO NOT ERR, my beloved brethren.

17)Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
---Jasheradan on 4/2/11


Boasting in Gods sovereignty is wonderful, Christan, IF you know his heart and the things He says he WILL do and WILL NOT do!

If you dont know that you worship him in vain.
---Jasheradan on 4/2/11


//I believe that God only work this promise in His elect and no one else//

What man is elected to a position that he doesn't even want?

If you offer a drunk in an alley a well-paying job OR a bottle of whiskey, which one will he take? Depends on the drunk, doesnt it? The one who wants a way out of his hell will take the job (salvation). The one who is happy right where he is will take the whiskey (death).

Think about it.
---Jasheradan on 4/2/11


Jasheradan, I boast in God's Sovereignty? If giving praise and glory to God in His Sovereignty is call boasting, so be it. At least I know I'm in good company with the prophets and apostles who wrote the Holy Bible.

I have no problem in the "power and promises of Christ to give you a new heart and make you acceptable to God", but that's where our believe comes to a halt. Why? You reject election, though it's Scriptural. I believe that God only work this promise in His elect and no one else.

And calling God Almighty and rejecting that He's a magician is not childish, it's a conviction of the Truth.
---christan on 4/2/11


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CraigA, you show me Scriptures like many do but the god you to describe is not the God of the Bible. Scripture declares, "And I am sure that the king of Egypt will not let you go, no, not by a mighty hand." Exodus 3:19, and you conclude that God "foreknew"? You are saying that God looked into the future and saw that Pharaoh was going to disobey, which Scripture will contradict you.

God does not look into the future, He purposed "the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass, I have purposed it, I will also do it." Isaiah 46:11. God purposed that Pharaoh will reject and rebel against Him if you understand Isaiah.
---christan on 4/2/11


//"God could work a little magic to show everyone", so you finally admit that your god is a magician, like Pharaoh's.//Christan

That was simply childish.

It doesnt do you any good to boast of Gods sovereignty if you don't believe what He tells you his sovereign will is.

Our God says he has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that they turn from their way and live. He even asks them why they would rather die!!! (Ezekiel 33:11-)

You say He does take pleasure in it and in fact preplans to send people there for his glory.

Who is the liar? God or Christan?

You dont even know his heart. How can you boast of his sovereignty?
---Jasheradan on 4/2/11


It should NOT cause a person to doubt their salvation to let go of the lie that God wants some people to go to hell.

Thats a sign your faith is in the wrong place. It should be in the power and promises of Christ to give you a new heart and make you acceptable to God. Not in an election.
---Jasheradan on 4/2/11


Jasheradan, the apostle Paul expounded that the love of Jacob and the hate for Esau was unconditional, which Malachi never taught. But that does not mean Malachi was in contrary to Paul's teaching in Romans 9, which is what you are saying. God revealed more of His plan to Paul, that's why he wrote the Epistles to teach us in detail. Your cross-referencing never taught you anything.

"God could work a little magic to show everyone", so you finally admit that your god is a magician, like Pharaoh's. My God is not a magician but "he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?"
---christan on 4/1/11


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"Nana,Ive already shown Christan in scripture where God foreknew pharaoh wouldnt let them go before he even decreed to "harden" him further. It made no difference."
---CraigA on 3/31/11
I am well aware of that and have seen it myself.
---Nana on 4/1/11


Interestingly enough, when Israel sinned " The Golden Calf" etc, God was going to destroy them. Moses reminded God of His Promise to Abraham. God turned away His wrath. Then Balaan was hired to curse them, and God put a stop to that.

MERCY is an attribute of God towards those who belong to Him. He deals with our disobedience in other ways. Israel belonged to God/and still does. and will yet have Mercy on Jacob AKA Israel, and bring them back to the Land, and all Israel will be saved...Isaiah 14... Coming to a theater in the Middle East soon! Stay tooned!

This is the whole point of Romans 9-11.
---kathr4453 on 4/1/11


Knowing something ahead of time doesnt mean you predestined it to happen.

God obviously doesnt exist within our limits of time and space. The Bible is pretty clear on that matter.

Nana,Ive already shown Christan in scripture where God foreknew pharaoh wouldnt let them go before he even decreed to "harden" him further. It made no difference.
---CraigA on 3/31/11


--"...Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee..." Romans 9:17
--

This is what happens when people DONT cross reference the scriptures. Calvinists typically make the same error by not reading Malachi concerning Gods "love for Jacob and hate for Esau".

Pharaoh was "raised up" to a position OVER the children of Israel so that when pharaoh refused to let the children of Israel go - God already knew pharaoh wouldnt (Exodus 3:19)- God could work a little magic to show everyone just how powerful He is. Those plagues hardened pharaoh even further because his heart was rebellious against God.

God eventually broke him...
---Jasheradan on 3/31/11


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christan, a paradox, indeed, as does many things in the bible, but how can a worldly person understand spiritual matters?
---Steveng on 3/31/11


In the above passage, the phrase, "things for Himself" takes us back to the Hebrew word maaneh, which to answer to, or to give a reply to. What is being said in the first part of this verse is, "The Lord hath made all things to answer or give an account unto Him." With that said, we could accurately read Proverbs 16:4 like this:

The LORD hath made all things to give account unto Him: yea, even the wicked, who think they are off His hook, have to give an account unto Him on the day of judgment.

Putting verses 2-5 read all together you can see this is what is meant.
---kathr4453 on 3/31/11


"God surely knows the beginning and the end, but it doesn't mean it's predestined." Steveng

You sure are confusing. First you say "God surely knows" and then throw cold water in the very next words saying "it doesn't mean it's predestined". It's either your god is a fortune teller or He is all-knowing and Almighty.

The God of the Bible did not know the beginning and end because He looked into the future. He wrote and purposed everything from the beginning to the end. He declared this in Isaiah 46:10

"Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure"
---christan on 3/31/11


God surely knows the beginning and the end, but it doesn't mean it's predestined. People choose between being for God or being against God. This is our choice. God knows what our choices are. God chooses people to become apostles and prophets and teachers and preachers depending upon their faith. God also choses evil people who he knows in advance who they are to achieve a certain goal. God will never choose our destination, we do. He will use both christians and nonchristians to achieve his ultimate goal. He already knows which are christians and which are evil and will use them accordingly. He doesn't want anyone to go to hell.
---Steveng on 3/30/11


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Exodus 9:34 "And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased,
he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants."

Who hardened those hearts and made them sin?

James 1:13_15: "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: ..., neither tempteth he any man:
..., when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed."
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Luke 11:34 "The light of the body is the eye: therefore when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light,
but when thine eye is evil, thy body also is full of darkness."
---Nana on 3/30/11


"Does God create evil, just so He can show His power by punishing it?" alan8566_of_uk

Yes. One such life was Pharaoh. That's precisely what Scripture says or do you not understand the very words in Romans 9?

"For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth." Romans 9:17

Didn't God destroy Pharaoh and his people? And that's precisely what "the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction" were created for. It's Scriptural and yet you try and twist in and out of this truth taught by Paul, basically calling God a liar.
---christan on 3/30/11


"No - it doesnt. God has already declared He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked in the book of Ezekiel." Jasheradan

Yes, God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but make no mistake that He has willed and purpose that they will die. For just as God, I'm sure took no pleasure in the death of His Son Jesus Christ at Calvary, didn't He purpose it to happen for a Holy purpose?

"Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him, he hath put him to grief" Isaiah 53:10

It's either you're predestined for life or death. And this is all of God's will as taught in the Scripture. So don't cling on to something as useless as your free-will. Only God has a free-will to do as He pleases.
---christan on 3/30/11


God - Abba - Daddy wants all of his children to return to him. The story of the prodical son, lost coin, etc. The idea that God would create a soul just to sent it to hell is totally bogus. He knows some will go to hell but loves anyway.
---Scott on 3/29/11


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No - it doesnt. God has already declared He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked in the book of Ezekiel.

My question is this:

Why do some Christians need to believe in DOUBLE predestination just to feel secure in Jesus Christ?

If a person has to believe God wanted certain people to burn in order to feel secure in their own salvation then they are looking in the wrong place for assurance.
---Jasheradan on 3/29/11


Christan ... You should ahve been here long enough to know that the person creating a question does not give the title.

The moderators do that, and on many occasions the title in no way reflects the question.

And in this case, even you should be able to see that the title given does not reflect the question that Mima poses.

And it is a genuine question, which follows on from other blogs ... & I would put it stronger ... Does God create evil, just so He can show His power by punishing it?"
---alan8566_of_uk on 3/28/11


If all of Scripture was just that verse, perhaps Mima, but that is not the case.
What is purposed for us Mima?
Well, Proverbs 16:2_3 "All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes, but the LORD weigheth the spirits.
Commit thy works unto the LORD, and thy thoughts shall be established."

Why are the spirits weighed if they were given with purpose and measure? Why the admonition to "Commit"?
Proverbs 16:7 "When a man's ways please the LORD, he maketh even his enemies to be at peace with him."
Proverbs 16:17 "The highway of the upright is to depart from evil: he that keepeth his way preserveth his soul."
---Nana on 3/28/11


John.usa: "When the Proverbs were written, there was no sense that anyone survived the grave or was judged after death."

What was taught in the NT was taught since the beginning.
---Steveng on 3/28/11


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Mima, You don't know what's predestination, this verse confirms predestination.

Let's start with your title, "Everything made for God". Made for God? Who made everything for God? Your title merely demonstrate your ignorance and foolishness of what Proverbs 16:4 declares, "The LORD hath made all things for Himself", which clearly means it was God who made everything "for Himself", not for you or I.

And included in His creation are "the wicked for the day of evil", created vessels of dishonor for the purpose that is fitted for destruction only (Romans 9:22). You are merely doing what God has purposed for you to do, mock His predestination. This was predestined.
---christan on 3/28/11


There is no description here of what the Day of Evil was. It could just mean eventual punishment for crimes judicially. When the Proverbs were written, there was no sense that anyone survived the grave or was judged after death.
---John.usa on 3/28/11


No, because there's no such thing as either.
---Cluny on 3/28/11


I think this scripture can show that God has more control, than we in our egos want to admit. So, it is for letting us know to be humble, plus how much we need to depend on God and submit to Him for His guiding, even every moment. And why would we not want to share with God and submit to His leading, in every single thing and every married thing (c: So, predestination means more intimately sharing with God, instead of depending on our own wills (Philippians 2:13, also, Mima (c: )
---Bill_willa6989 on 3/28/11


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