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Doctrines Only New Testament

Should all doctrines be from the New Testament alone as the NT reflects the New Covenant?

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 ---leonia on 3/31/11
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**Again there was no NT what do you think they search:

While the canon of the NT was being formed what the early church did have was the Apostles teaching under the influence of the Holy Spirit AND letters were written to the various churches.

By the end of the 1st century, the books that made up the New Testament were available and being read by the churches. (see the Canon of Scripture by FF Bruce & The text of the New Testament by Bruce Metzger).

What the Bereans did was to search the OT scripture to substantiate what Paul was teaching about Jesus being the promised Messiah.

Neither the OT Sabbath nor the Levitical food laws were observed by the Gentile churches by the end of the first century.
---leonia on 4/6/11


Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

At that time there ws no NT books, what do you think he was to study and then teach:

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Again there ws no NT what do you think they search:

In Both cases the answer is THE Books of the OLD TESTIMENT.

God NEVER divided his word into OT and NT,
God divides his words in LAW, prophets, psalms
Luke 24:44 the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me.
---Francis on 4/6/11


Many Pharisees joined the Christian church in the New Testament. The problem that many had was adding works to grace. Others had the problem of thinking they deserved salvation because they were so good. These are still problems in many denominations not just the Seventh day Adventist.

We teach that the Moral laws of the Old Testament which is firstly embodied in the Ten Commandments are still in effect today. A position that is stated as true by many denominations without one or two caveats.

All who have ever been saved are saved by Grace alone. As Paul points out Abraham was saved by Grace through faith.

Yes the OC is done away with because we live in the New. But the new still has all the moral laws of the old.
---Samuel on 4/6/11


--Eloy on 4/6/11

LEAVEN of OT?
What exactly is LEAVEN of OT?
---francis on 4/6/11


The expert or experienced may use the old testament for teaching, but knows the difference in covenants and how the leaven of the old testament will bring a curse, and the more virtuous Law of the New Testament will bring manifold blessings.
---Eloy on 4/6/11




aka on 4/6/11
nice explaination but consider:
Leviticus 19:18 thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.
Deuteronomy 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

So these OT verses are they LETTER or SPIRIT.
If you say spirit then the spirit of the Law did exist before the new covenant.
---FRANCIS on 4/6/11


As a teaching tool about the plan of redeemption, God gave to his people a sanctuary. It is a school master brining us to christ. Everything in this teaching tool pointed to Jesus:
earthly sanctuary to heavenly sanctuary, Blood of bulls and goats to blood of jesus, and so on.

Once Jesus came and died, the sanctuary lesson which was a shadow became real. So we do not have to follow the sanctuary on earth. We have the real thing in heaven. The sanctuary laws still exist, but now in heaven That is what Hebrews talks about.

So in the old covenant when you sinned you went to the high priest, new covenant, directly to Jesus.
But the new covenant does not change what SIN is, God will forever hate sin, look at what it did to his son.
---francis on 4/6/11


//explain to us how the christiasn lives by the spirit of the law when dealing with ANY of the ten commandments://

Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.*

Gal 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

*If we are in the Spirit, we obey the law not by our own power, but by the Spirit's. But, since we can't perfectly(in this bag of bones) and Jesus did, we are forgiven where we fail by God if we accept that His Son is the only one who did/does/will always do.
---aka on 4/6/11


leonia: "I am happy that you apparently agree with my statement that the Pharisees were the predecessors of the Adventists"

What makes you think that I agree with your fallacious statements? The Pharisees were the religious conservatives of their day. Jesus chided them for their MAN-MADE additions to the Law. Similarly, the Saducees were the LAWLESS liberals at the time, and Jesus rebuked their anti-scriptural heresies. It would seem that you are a curious mixture of both, as you refuse to obey Christ's Law, yet readily adhere to man's.
---jerry6593 on 4/6/11


francis - You say we sin if we disobey any of the OT laws that are no longer applicable?

Do we sin if we refuse to have ourselves or our male children circumcised?

Obviously NO, as the ruling of the Jerusalem council was Gentile converts need not be circumcised nor did they need to follow the laws of Moses.

Acts 15:5 But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, it is necessary to circumcise them AND to order them to keep the law of Moses.

Scripture is plain we may esteem one day over others or none at all (Romans 14:5-6), AND we may eat whatever we view as food (14:2,14).

Furthermore you are forbidden to judge others on the day they observe or what they eat (Col. 2:16).
---leonia on 4/6/11




**If this is true, that the doctrnes of Jesus is the same yesterday today and forever,the very idea that all doctrines be from the New Testament alone is HERASY, especially since some of you are trying to show a change in doctrine from OT to NT.


why did the writer of Hebrews declare the Old Covenant was becoming obsolete?

(8:13) In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

If Jesus was the same in His doctrine from the Old to the New Covenant, then the Jerusalem council was not in compliance with Jesus when they decided Gentile believers need not be circumcised and observe the laws of Moses.
---leonia on 4/6/11


Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines

If this is true, that the doctrnes of Jesus is the same yesterday today and forever,the very idea that all doctrines be from the New Testament alone is HERASY, especially since some of you are trying to show a change n doctrine from OT to NT.

Psalms 138:2 thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

This passage tells us that God has placed his WORD ( scripture / doctrine) above ALL his names so that God himself cannot change his doctrine.

Romans 3:4 yea, let God be true, but every man a liar,

especially those who teach that God has changed his doctrine.
---francis on 4/5/11


--kathr4453 on 4/5/11
---leonia on 4/5/11

1 John 3:4 for sin is the transgression of the law.

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in the transgression of the law, that grace may abound?

Romans 6:15 What then? shall we transgress the law, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

So by your doctrine, if I:
1. Do not worship other gods.
2. Do not worship idols.
3. Do not misuse God's name.
4. Keep the Sabbath holy.
5. Honor your father & mother.
6. Do not murder.
7. Do not commit adultery.
8. Do not steal.
9. Do not lie.
10. Do not covet.

Then i nulify grace?

I am still waiting for an answer
---francis on 4/5/11


The Christian does not live by the written letter of the law but by the Spirit.
---leonia on 4/5/11

I bet you have NO idea what that actually means.

Now explain to us how the christiasn lives by the spirit of the law when dealing with ANY of the ten commandments:
THE TEN COMMANDMENTS
1. Do not worship other gods.
2. Do not worship idols.
3. Do not misuse God's name.
4. Keep the Sabbath holy.
5. Honor your father & mother.
6. Do not murder.
7. Do not commit adultery.
8. Do not steal.
9. Do not lie.
10. Do not covet.

BOOK CHAPTER AND VERSE
---francis on 4/5/11


francis **Galatian deals with a group of people who believe that in order to be saved, they MUST be circumcised.

Not really true in its context!

Galatians deals with people that believed they could be more spiritual in their faith if they followed Jewish laws.

Ga 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

The Christian does not live by the written letter of the law but by the Spirit.

Ro 7:6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit.

And in living in the new life of the Spirit, he continues to put to death the deeds of the flesh.
---leonia on 4/5/11


Jerry **The word "predessor" should have been "predecessor" however, I am happy that you apparently agree with my statement that the Pharisees were the predecessors of the Adventists who through attempting to observe the Levitical dietary laws as well as the OT Sabbath, gained little in doing so.

Thanks for the correction.
---leonia on 4/5/11


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---kathr4453 on 4/5/11

Galation deals with a group of people who believe that in order to be saved, they MUST be circumcised.

Now while it is acceptable even preferable to be circumcised, no one does it for salvation, that is what galations is about.

It is not that doing it is wrong, it is that doing it for SALVATION is wrong

Preaching of the the messiah dying is not something that any jew would expect. How could the mesiah come and diue and lve israel under roman rule?

Acts 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, [Ye must] be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no [such] commandment:
---FRANCIS on 4/5/11


leonia: Are you really just another pseudonym for my old nemesis, Lee?

I'm still waiting for a definition of "predessors".
---jerry6593 on 4/5/11


francis, how I pray you will understand Galatians. Paul was persecuted for the preaching and teaching of the CROSS.

What do you think that means?
---kathr4453 on 4/5/11


Romans 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound?
By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?

While the Christian is called upon to walk by faith not by law, the law is no longer binding on ones walk.

Romans 1:17 For in it (i.e. the gospel) the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, The righteous shall live by faith.

Yes, kathr is right in that those who promote obedience to law are indeed Legalists, simply put they do not know the Lord.
---leonia on 4/5/11


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So, mixing the two as our daily walk is leaven! You can't miX LAW and GRACE, One is by FAITH, teh other by works. LEGALISM doesn't establish Grace, it nunilify's it. GAL 2:20-21.
---kathr4453 on 4/4/11

REALY.
1 John 3:4 for sin is the transgression of the law.

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in the transgression of the law, that grace may abound?

Romans 6:15 What then? shall we transgress the law, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

So by your doctrine, if I honour my father and mother, if I do not commit adultery, if I do not steal, If i do not lie, if i do not covet, then i nulify grace?
---francis on 4/4/11


Samuel,
The law and the gospel have different jobs. The problem comes when you give the law the gospels job (salvation) or when you give the gospel the laws job (condemnation). See Gal 3:17 which teaches that the law cannot put the gospel out of a job Gal 3:19 ... the law has its own job. The laws job is to "work wrath" Rom. 4:15. So, mixing the two as our daily walk is leaven! You can't miX LAW and GRACE, One is by FAITH, teh other by works. LEGALISM doesn't establish Grace, it nunilify's it. GAL 2:20-21.



THE law is established when its penalties are enforced.

The Lord Jesus Christ established the law by bearing its penalty.
---kathr4453 on 4/4/11


RICHARD this is true, however SCRIPTURE states

6But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held, that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Willl you let Scripture CORRECT your thinking?
---kathr4453

Of course I will always accept Scripture. How about Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Now does in newness of the Spirit mean not obey the letter or does it mean obey inside and outside?

Does it mean not try to reach heaven by works? Instead obey out of love?
---Samuel on 4/4/11


If Francis knew anything about the Bible he would have to acknowledge that Jesus is God in the flesh and that any angel such as Michael is subserviant to Him. Hebrews 1.

He should spend more time prayerfully reading the Bible with the guidance of God's Spirit, not olde Ellen White as she was a spiritualist - the medium for demons.
---leonia on 4/4/11


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Jude 1:9
Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

So Michael did not bring a railing accusation against the devil, but said THE LORD REBUKE thee.

JESUS CHRIST IS LORD
---kathr4453 on 4/4/11


Michael the arch angel means: the CHIEF messenger of God, who is ( like) God,
---francis on 4/4/11

Being LIKE God is not God. Jesus IS God in the flesh.

Hebrews 1 and 2 CLEARLY say angels were indeed messengers of God, but were not and will never be the ONLY begotten Son of God. Nor were any angels asked to Sit at God's right hand. Nor can angels die, or shed blood.

Do you also pray to michael?

Here is another issue, we have only ONE mediator between God and man, and that is the MAN Christ Jesus.

You believe Michael went back to being an angel correct?



So, infact you deny GOD was made flesh, so you deny the deity of Christ.
---kathr4453 on 4/4/11


Word of your god. a simple yes would have done.

Ellen White's record as a prophet and teacher speaks for itself.
---aka on 4/4/11


Joshua 5:15 And the captain of the LORD'S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot, for the place whereon thou standest [is] holy. And Joshua did so.

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon fought and his angels,

Revelation 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

SO who exactly is the leader ( captain ) of the armies of god, is it michael or jesus.

because they are one and the same, you will find that Michael is the names used for Jesus in his heavenly dties.

Michael the arch angel means: the CHIEF messenger of God, who is ( like) God,
---francis on 4/4/11


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I know of no one who eat rats and roaches. Infact most if not all would send food back in a restaurant of ther was a fly, or roach in it. I guess the idea that they could eat anything is not really true.

Also if asked most "christians" would say that the obey 9/10 or these:
THE TEN COMMANDMENTS
1. Do not worship other gods.
2. Do not worship idols.
3. Do not misuse God's name.
4. Keep the Sabbath holy.
5. Honor your father & mother.
6. Do not murder.
7. Do not commit adultery.
8. Do not steal.
9. Do not lie.
10. Do not covet.

they forgot what james said:
James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.
---Francis on 4/4/11


**francis, a few months ago, in a blog, you and a few others were trying to establish that Michael is the Christ and Jesus was Michael in the flesh. by slight of hand, you can say that Jesus, who is really Michael, is the Christ.

And the Jehovah's Witnesses believe Jesus was the archangel Michael prior to becoming Jesus in the flesh. Charles Taze Russell founder of the JWs had as his mentors, the Seventh Day Adventists.
---leej on 4/3/11


Is Michael the Christ as Ellen G. White proclaims?
---aka on 4/3/11

Not by White, but by THE WORD OF GOD.
John 5:28 for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

WHOSE VOICE shall raise the dead, the voice of Jesus as stated in John or the voice of the arch angel as stated by Paul?

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth and there shall be a time of trouble

Revelation 19:11-21

Is that Jesus or Michael standing up for his people?
---Francis on 4/3/11


leonia: What are "predessors"?
---jerry6593 on 4/4/11


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2 TIMOTHY 3,16 ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspriration of GOD,and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.
---RICHARDC on 4/3/11


RICHARD this is true, however SCRIPTURE states

6But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held, that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Willl you let Scripture CORRECT your thinking?
---kathr4453 on 4/4/11


francis, a few months ago, in a blog, you and a few others were trying to establish that Michael is the Christ and Jesus was Michael in the flesh. by slight of hand, you can say that Jesus, who is really Michael, is the Christ.

But, there are some who do not believe in that. Unfortunately, I do not have time to dig in the garbage heap.

Let us TRY to make this simple.

Is Michael the Christ as Ellen G. White proclaims?
---aka on 4/3/11


francis **Hebrews 8:1 Now of things which we have spoken [this is] THE SUM: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,

we can believe scripture however, Adventists doctrine teaches that Jesus left the side of the Father in 1844 and has entered into the most holy of holies to begin judgment of Christians to determine their worthiness of eternal life.

we recognize that such doctrine is part of that doctrine of demons spoken of in the Scripture as those in Christ will not be judged. John 5:24

It really astonishes us that any intelligence person would follow a silly brain damaged old woman who often spoke of her "accompanying angel"= spiritualism.
---leonia on 4/3/11


**: You seem intent on finding justification for breaking God's Law in the New Testament.

Not in the least! the fulfillment of the law is found in love of neighbor. Ever read Romans 13:9f? Probably not!

Remember the Pharisees (the predessors of the Adventists) were very strict about observance of law, they even observed the Levitical dietary laws as well as the most holy of all OT laws, the Sabbath. They even helped put Jesus on the Cross.

Christ often referred to them as a brood of vipers. Are you also a snake?

While you may obey the law in the hope of meriting eternal salvation, we Christians simply recognize that we are sinners saved by grace not by works of the law.
---leonia on 4/3/11


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Judaizing is nothing new. the only purpose is to deny Jesus as the Messiah of which you are engaged.
---aka on 4/2/11

Show ONE BLOG where i denied Jesus as Messiah or then appolagize for making such a malicious accusation!

Just because you and others CHOOSE not to believe the entire word of God does not make it untrue.

Romans 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar, as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
---FRANCIS on 4/3/11


2 TIMOTHY 3,16 ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspriration of GOD,and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.
---RICHARDC on 4/3/11


Read Hebrews, the details of the New Covenant, you will see that what ittalk about is the old testiment SANCTUARY services:

Hebrews 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken [this is] THE SUM: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,

Hebrews 8:2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon BETTER PROMISES ( the promises have already been kept since Christ died and serves as High priest)

Nothing in hebrews about not obeying the Laws of God.
---francis on 4/3/11


leonia: You seem intent on finding justification for breaking God's Law in the New Testament. Did Jesus state that HIS law was now null and void? For what reason? Did He not state that one jot or tittle should not pass from the Law while heaven and earth remain? Did He not uphold the Old Testament and ALL of it's precepts, even quoting from it often? Where in scripture did He state that only things repeated in the NT were binding? It didn't even exist at that time. Do you think that He is more pleased with disobedience than with obedience? You should check carefully what HE said about those who teach lawlessness!
---jerry6593 on 4/3/11


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Frances - you are tainting us by not quoting those verses in Jeremiah by not quoting the verse that tells us the New Covenant would be UNLIKE the old one, God made with Isreal when they left Egypt.

31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

Sorry but you are a waste to time as you really know neither the Lord or His Word.
Your mind is far too poluted with the occultist Ellen White for the truth to penetrate.
---leonia on 4/3/11


francis, i am not going to argue in circles with you.

Judaizing is nothing new. the only purpose is to deny Jesus as the Messiah of which you are engaged.
---aka on 4/2/11


There is only One book. There is no OT/NT that's manmade.

The NT is the fulfillment of and the final part of the OT. Jesus is Scripture being revealed in real life.

The rest of the NT are the fulfillment of many prophecies and the prophecies of the end.

There is only ONE BOOK!
---John on 4/3/11


---leonia on 4/2/11

Jeremiah 31:31 I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Jeremiah 31:33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts,

Hebrews 8:8 I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:


Hebrews 8:10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

STILL HAVE THE LAW OF GOD IN NEW COVENANT
---francis on 4/3/11


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Jesus fulfilled only his part of prophesy not all of prophesy which is to shortly come to pass.
---Steveng on 4/2/11


Jesus ushered in a New Covenant, not a rehash of the Old.

Lu 22:20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.

Gal. 4:4-5 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Hebrews 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Those like francis & Jerry that promote the Old Covenant are really promoting the tenets of a covenant that has been declared obsolete.
---leonia on 4/2/11


It takes time, and dligence to study the bible.
But even if you just sat and though about it: there was no new testement for many many years, all the apostles did was preach and write leters.
What source did they have for their teachings:

Luke 24:27 And beginning at MOSES AND ALL THE PROPHETS, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Acts 28:23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into [his] lodging, to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the LAW OF MOSES, and out of THE PROPHETS, from morning till evening.

The answer is simple, THE OLD TESTEMENTS BOOK were the only source of teaching
---Francis on 4/2/11


It was written, but I say...

It was written, but I say...

Words of Jesus...it is somewhere in the NT.
---aka on 4/1/11
Yep, and jesus teaching did NOT replace what was said, but expounded on the application more clearly.

Example: thou shal not commit adultery is OT, jesus makes t clear that we should not even entaintain thet hought...oopps sorry Job 31:1 I made a covenant with mine eyes, why then should I think upon a maid?
OT

also see the writings of Olomon

You have to want to know god to search his word.
---francis on 4/2/11


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I believe the New is partually the fulfillment of the Old. There is more to be fulfilled from Promises in the OT to Israel. That is important doctrine we must never forget, or think God did away with.

The New Testament also reflect the Everlasting Eternal Covenant announced to Adam & Eve...genesis 3:15, again reiterated to Abraham.

The New Covenant did not replace the Covenant made to Abraham. The New Covenant is a PARTIAL fulfllment of the Arahamic Covenant, and genesis 3:15.

Not until ALL is fulfilled at the Return of Christ, and the 1000 years too fulfilled will even the New Covenant for Israel be fulfilled.

---kathr4453 on 4/2/11


Mat.28 Jesus said "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations ...teaching them.."
At that time there was no such thing as a "New Testament!"
The OT "IS" the bible!
The Gospels are the biography of Jesus Christ.
Paul began a whole new "religion" with his letters! Laws regulations and churches! A Pharisee/Christian miss match!
---1st_cliff on 4/1/11


leonia: "Matthew 5,17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Despite what you want to beleive Jesus did accomplish His mission."

To fullfill does not mean to end. Not one law will end until all is fulfill. ALL has not been fulfilled as of yet because we are still living today. The end is after the thousand year rain of Jesus.
---Steveng on 4/1/11


//Sorry Jesus and ALL apostles taught from the OT//

It was written, but I say...

It was written, but I say...

Words of Jesus...it is somewhere in the NT.
---aka on 4/1/11


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Consider this:

The NT wasn't created until three hundred years after the resurrection of Jesus. So, what scriptures did the early christians learn from during those three hundred years?

As for the laws, LOVE (as in the verb form) is the ultimate commandment spoken of by Jesus. LOVE encompasses the two commandments - to love God and to love your neighbor. These two commandments encompasses the ten commandments (the first four commandments is to love God, the other six is to love your neighbor. And, if you try really hard, you can catagorize all of 613 laws of moses in each of the ten commandments.

Everything Jesus taught was taught from the beginning.
---Steveng on 4/1/11


leej: "You fail to understand that the Old Covenant became an obsolete Covenant and all you have is your silly junk religion much like that of the Sabbath keeping Pharisees..."

The new covenant is like a mortgage, the laws are the same, but the terms are different.

As for the Sabbath, why would God ordain the Sabbath (which, by the way, is not a mosaic law, but was ordained thousands of years before Abraham, on the sixth day), then discontinue it and then reinstall it in the new world? Christians need the Sabbath more today than anytime is history, but for selfish reasons they want to take it away because it interrups their worldly lifestyle.
---Steveng on 4/1/11


---leonia on 4/1/11
I think you need to be more careful in what you print, these blogs stay online forever. first, circumcision was not an issue because all jews and those converting to judism did it. An issue would be a point of contention or missunderstanding, or a failure to carry out a command. No such thing with circumcision is Jesus' day.

second, you are deceiving yourself if you think that christian doctrine cimes from NT, the word " scripture" in the NT when read by the earky church meant what we call OT. NT is a very late edition to the word of God, No disciple ever taught from NT

show me any NT doctrine and i will show it to you in OT
---francis on 4/1/11


**Circumcision was NEVER an issue for the Jews in Jesus days, so there was no need to preach to people on what they ALREADY PRACTICED.

You are truly ignorant of Judaism!

Circumcision was the rite of entrance into the Jewish faith. Without it, you could not become a proselyte and were in violation of the Covenant God made with the Jewish people.

Ge 17:10 This is my covenant, which you shall keep, between me and you and your offspring after you: Every male among you shall be circumcised.

It was also the main issue concerning Gentile converts. Acts 15:1

Did Jesus teach OT circumcision? Absolute NOT!

Suggest you spend more time reading your Bible if you have one.
---leonia on 4/1/11


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**To cut off the OT is like cutting off the blade of the sword.

Not the point in question.

While the OT is a very valuable source of understanding Christian doctrine, all doctrine of the church is derived from the New Testament.

I know of no doctrine that comes only from the Old Covenant. Such is the problem with the Adventist cult.
---leonia on 4/1/11


Paul stated all scripture is for doctrine. 2tim. The Old testament is JESUS concealed and yet to come. The New Testament is JESUS revealed and here.

To cut off the OT is like cutting off the blade of the sword. The handle is absolutly but the blade is the cutting edge. Many of the 600 laws are moral explaintions of the Ten Commandments. For instance a son should not sleep with his Father's wife. Do you believe that law is done away with?

Fulfill does not mean done away with. It means to make complete. The law is a tutor to tell us we are sinners and that we need a Saviour. Gal. If you say it does then you make JESUS say I come not to do away with the law but to do away with the law.
---Samuel on 4/1/11


---leonia on 4/1/11
THE CROSS, ATONEMENT AND GOSPEL:
Genesis 3:15 it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
The gospel:Genesis 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.


SPIRIT INDWELLING BELIEVERS:
Genesis 2:7 and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.
Job 27:3 All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils,

PRIESTHOOD OF ALL BELIEVERS: Exodus 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests,

BAPTISM: Exodus 40:7 And thou shalt set the laver between the tent of the congregation and the altar, and shalt put water therein.
---francis on 4/1/11


If Jesus taught solely from the OT, did He then teach physical circumcision?
---leej on 4/1/11
Circumcision was NEVER an issue for the jews in Jesus days, so there was no need to preach to people on what they ALREADY PRACTICED.

But he himself was a model for others:
John 7:22 Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision, (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers,) and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.

John 7:23 If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken, are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?
---francis on 4/1/11


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//Sorry Jesus and ALL apostles taught from the OT,
AND ALL Christian doctrines - the Trinity, the atonement, the Cross, ...

If Jesus taught solely from the OT, did He then teach physical circumcision?

And if Jesus taught from the Old Testament, did He impose the Mosaic law system onto the Gentiles?

In other words, was the Jerusalem council in err when they did not require Gentile beleivers to become circumcised, observe the OT sabbath as well as the dietary laws?

You fail to understand that the Old Covenant became an obsolete Covenant and all you have is your silly junk religion much like that of the Sabbath keeping Pharisees who killed "the Author of life, whom God raised from the dead". Acts 3:15
---leej on 4/1/11


**Sorry Jesus and ALL apostles taught from the OT,
AND ALL Christian doctrines - the Trinity, the atonement, the Cross, the gospel, baptism, ...

Wrong again! while there may be an allusion to some NT doctrine in the OT, there was no explicit development until the New Testament was written.

Also you probably do not realize this but there are over 600 laws in the OT, and many of them were fulfilled with the ministry of Christ.

Matthew 5,17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Despite what you want to beleive Jesus did accomplish His mission.

Read Gal. 4:4-5 if you can find it in your Bible.
---leonia on 4/1/11


So your contention that the New Covenant was merely an extension or rehash of the Old is invalid.
---leonia on 4/1/11

Leonia, think I know what you mean but, here is something interesting to consider. A searching start place for me....as both of testaments given were tied to covenants. Both described as a marriage. You know the first one below. The second differs.
1.The Old Testament laws.
2.The New Testament laws.

Hebrews 10:16
This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them,

Also Jer 31:33/Heb8:10.
---Trav on 4/1/11


The answer to this one is very simple. Their teacher was Jesus and they were taught from Him for some 3 years.

And the Holy Spirit used them as an instrument in penning the Scripture.

---leonia on 4/1/11
Sorry Jesus and ALL apostles taught from the OT,
AND ALL Christian doctrines - the Trinity, the atonement, the Cross, the gospel, baptism, of the Spirit indwelling believers, the priesthood of believers, and other specifics of the New Covenant are found in the OT.

EXAMPLE TRINITY:
Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let US make man in our image,
Genesis 1:2 And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Genesis 16:7 And the angel of the LORD
---francis on 4/1/11


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Jerry **A question for you, Leonia: Where did Jesus and the Apostles get their doctrine, if not from the Old Testament?

The answer to this one is very simple. Their teacher was Jesus and they were taught from Him for some 3 years.

And the Holy Spirit used them as an instrument in penning the Scripture.

There is little if anything in the OT about basic Christian doctrines - the Trinity, the atonement, the Cross, the gospel, baptism, of the Spirit indwelling believers, the priesthood of believers, and other specifics of the New Covenant.

So your contention that the New Covenant was merely an extension or rehash of the Old is invalid.
---leonia on 4/1/11


//...when the apostles had to correct and reproof, and instruct the churches [and synagogues], they simply quoted from the OT...Again the word scripture in this context refers ONLY to the OT// Agreed.

Act 17:11 Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica, they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.

These things? What things?

Act 17:2 And Paul went in, as was his custom, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures,
Act 17:3 explaining and proving that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead, and saying, "This Jesus, whom I proclaim to you, is the Christ."
---aka on 4/1/11


A question for you, Leonia:

Where did Jesus and the Apostles get their doctrine, if not from the Old Testament?

There was no New Testament at that time. Jesus quoted often from the Old Testament. Even Paul's statement about the New Covenant was a quote from the Old Testament.
---jerry6593 on 4/1/11


Doctrines comming from the N.T. only is WRONG doctrine. The N.T. did not come into existance until AFTER all the early Apostles had died - that means that the early Apostles (including Paul) went ONLY by the O.T. because it was the ONLY one that existed at the time. We MISS God completly and are NOT in line with the Bible when we go by N.T. only. There are still things in the O.T. that have yet to be fulfilled (in the future) - what do we do with this? The end is found in the beginning.
---Leslie on 4/1/11


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Cluny ... I think the question means "Can we accept doctrines based on the OT which are not specifically endorsed by the NT?"
---alan8566_of_uk on 4/1/11


I dont quite understand the question either.

I do know however that the New Covenant was NOT in place until Christ died. Men before the death of Christ were still in the Old Covenant (law of sacrifices).

Hebrews 9

15)And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

16)For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

17) For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
---Jasheradan on 4/1/11


What exactly does your question mean?

How can a doctrine from the NT reflect anything BUT the NT?
---Cluny on 3/31/11


The earlier scriptures need the New Testament understanding. All is useful.

"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." (2 Timothy 3:16-17)
---Bill_willa6989 on 3/31/11


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2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

In the scrictest form,the above verse refers to the OT since theer was no NT when it was written.

The apostles who wrote the NT did not come with any new doctrine. Those who study the NT will see that when the apostles had to correct and reproof, and instruct the churches, the simply quoted from the OT.

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Again the word scripture in this context refers ONLTY to the OT
---francis on 3/31/11


If you are referring to only studying the NT, then no. We should study both doctrines from the OT & NT. Jesus taught from the scrolls (OT) since the NT hasn't been formed yet, so we should study the same. The whole bible.
---candice on 3/31/11


The doctrines in the Old and New Testament are One. The OT were a shadow of the NT, meaning the Old Testament concealed the New Testament and the New Testament revealed the concealment of the Old Testament.
---christan on 3/31/11


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