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Importance Of Jerusalem Council

What exactly were the decisions made at Jerusalem council in Acts 15 regarding Gentile converts?

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 ---leonia on 4/5/11
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f you truely know the scriptures, what is wrong ( or right) with using this verse:

2Co 3:14-16

TO CONTRADICT THESE VERSES

Acts 28:23 he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them CONCERNING JESUS, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets,

John 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he ( MOSES) wrote of me (JESUS).

Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself( JESUS).
---francis on 4/10/11


**Leonia,there you go quoting from Ronald Numbers again.

The book Prophetess of Health is worth the reading since it gives a totally new viewpoint of Ellen White and where she got many of her viewpoints.

Ellen White, according to Numbers - and he is probably correct - "by her adult years she had developed a full-fledged somatization disorder and a histrionic personality style." p. 282.

While true that most Adventists are not vegetarians, Ellen gave it a try proclaiming that it was a command from God, but had to give it up when it just would not work.

I am beginning to think the way to handle the hardshelled Adventists, is simply to ignore their arguments and go ahead with what you believe is right.
---leonia on 4/10/11


2Co 3:14-16 But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away.....
---leonia on 4/9/11

Verse is in regard to 1/12th of Israel "Judah" not accepting.
The divorced House of Israel party names other than Judah is/has/will continue to accept Christ.
Connect these witnesses with Corinthian's: Heb 8:10/Jer 31:33. Laws in heart to Israel....Divorced House...not Judah.
2 Cor3: 2-3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God, not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
---Trav on 4/10/11


Sabbath observance is one of the ten commandments and we have never been told we can disobey them have we.

We aren't saved by them but can we reject them?
---Warwick on 4/9/11

Ur "unmentionables", Israel doesn't reject them.
Judah or the "other Sheep".
For bonafide Judahites,laws are in Stone.
For largest part of Israel they are written in their heart.
For actual "heathen" or others...they learn,adopt and "live" by through and because of.
Heb 8:10
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their mind, write them in their hearts: I will be to them a God, they shall be to me a people:
---Trav on 4/10/11


Interestingly there are many Christians here who hold the writings of evolutionists to be above Scripture. Do you condemn them as well?
---Warwick on 4/9/11

We shouldn't do any condemning. That is GOD's department.

Evolution is not scriptural. But, ones who believe it are not getting enough "truth" from their scripturally starved preacher/pastor/teacher/wolves to discern difference.
There is far more emphasis by Christ and GOD to watch out for these "false", "weak" but proudly arrogant,"wolf" preachers than evolutionist who are not mentioned.
Jer 23:1
Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD.
2 Peter 2:3 through covetousness...
---Trav on 4/10/11




Gal. chapter one and two answers the question very well.
---michael_e on 4/10/11


\\IS there anyone in here who understand the scriptures?\\

Do you actually think that YOU do, francis?

I know I do, and I know you don't.
---Cluny on 4/10/11


They preached Moses because:
Acts 28:23 he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them CONCERNING JESUS, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets,

2Co 3:14-16 But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away. Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts.But when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed.
---leonia on 4/9/11

IS there anyone in here who understand the scriptures?
If so tell us what is wrong with the above comparism of these two verses.
---francis on 4/9/11


They preached Moses because:
Acts 28:23 he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them CONCERNING JESUS, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets,

2Co 3:14-16 But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away. Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts.But when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed.
---leonia on 4/9/11


They said "Moses" (acts 15:21) is preached on the Sabbath. They did not say Jesus is preached. ---Bill_willa6989 on 4/9/11

It is not possible to teach on the sabbath without preching Jesus. After all, the sabbath is a sign that Jesus created all things. Our creater is also our redeemer.

They preached Moses because:
Acts 28:23 he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them CONCERNING JESUS, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets,

John 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he ( MOSES) wrote of me (JESUS).

Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself( JESUS).
---francis on 4/9/11




1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

God has already told noah that some things were CLEAN and some UNCLEAN. So Noah like the rest of us understood that ALL MOVING THINGS which are good for food were the clean things.

He only had TWO of all unclean animals, eat just ONE and the entire species would be gone, but he had 7 MAYBE 14 of each clean eat one, and the species still goes on.

Genesis 7:2 Of every CLEAN BEAST thou shalt take to thee by SEVENS, the male and his female: and of beasts that are NOT CLEAN by TWO, the male and his female.
---francis on 4/9/11


Mark in my experience with Adventists both lay and minister I have never heard anyone say Sabbath observance is necessary for salvation. Some may believe this but I have not met them, and it is not official SDA Doctrine.

I have had Adventists tell me how important it is but they have never judged me regarding this. If I have understood correctly they see it as a post-salvation good work and I would agree.

There are many blogers here, from numerous denominations, some promoting heresies however they are not necessarily promoting their denominations official line.

Sabbath observance is one of the ten commandments and we have never been told we can disobey them have we. We aren't saved by them but can we reject them?
---Warwick on 4/9/11


Leonia,there you go quoting from Ronald Numbers again.

Despite what Ellen White wrote two centuries previously Adventists are not commanded to be vegetarian. In fact a survey showed only c40% are vegetarian. And as I have pointed out Pacific Islander Adventists in Australia (and I imagine in the Pacific Islands) are definitely not vegetarian. And they have official SDA support.

I have met Adventists who hold Ellen White is very high esteem, maybe giving her too much respect. But they are not the majority from my experience. Her writings on the same level as Scripture? Don't think so.

Interestingly there are many Christians here who hold the writings of evolutionists to be above Scripture. Do you condemn them as well?
---Warwick on 4/9/11


To answer your blog question, the Jerusalem council upheld the Old Testament dietary laws concerning eating "things strangled and blood".
---jerry6593 on 4/9/11


They "gave no such commandment" that the Gentiles get circumcised and keep the law of Moses . . . even though God said to Abraham, that every male in Abraham's house must be circumcised, and that any uncircumcised male "shall be cut off from his people, he has broken My covenant." > Genesis 17:7-14. So, the Council considered Abraham's circumcision covenant commands to be no longer in effect, and this circumcision requirement was given *before* the law came.

They said "Moses" (acts 15:21) is preached on the Sabbath. They did not say Jesus is preached. Ones preach the Sabbath with more passion and *attention*, than they give to preaching Jesus!!!
Examples of this may be found below v v v v v
---Bill_willa6989 on 4/9/11


Peter R. Kraemer, Catholic Church Extension Society (1975),Chicago, Illinois.

1.That Protestants, who accept the Bible as the only rule of faith and religion, should by all means go back to the observance of the Sabbath.

2.We Catholics do not accept the Bible as the only rule of faith.

D. L. Moody, Weighed and Wanting (Fleming H. Revell Co.: New York), pp. 47, 48.

The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. This fourth commandment begins with the word 'remember,' showing that the Sabbath already existed when God Wrote the law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?"
---francis on 4/9/11


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Jerry **To answer your blog question, the Jerusalem council upheld the Old Testament dietary laws concerning eating "things strangled and blood".

This would mean that I can eat oysters (a favorite dish of Ellen White), pork chops since we could cut the hogs throat and let him bled to death, or shrimp, clams, etc. Think of it! kosher pig!

Poor Jesus really did not know what He was talking about when He stated what goes into the stomach does not matter but what comes out of the heart. Of course, He only had the Holy Spirit to guide Him and not the Great Ellen White!
---leonia on 4/9/11


What do you make of this scripture?

Gen 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed, to you it shall be for meat. [P.S., Ellen White didn't write this.]

What do you make of this scripture?

Genesis 9:3 Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. And as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything.

Do you suppose that those who wrote the Bible changed it from its original?

Who is Lee?
---leonia on 4/9/11


warwick **The point you keep missing is that vegetarianism is not a church doctrine.

The problem here is that the Adventist church holds the writings of Ellen White as being on the same level as scripture.

What she said about health foods, was from her visions from God.

[In her essay "Health" which reads in places like L. B Coles, she recited the established principles of health reform, attributing them to her recent visions.] p 134 Prophetess of Health, by Ronald Numbers.

What you are missing is that fact that Adventists recognize the writings of Ellen White as being visions from God.
---leonia on 4/9/11


Warwick, I have followed what you have said many times and respect your views and some others, but it is the Adventist who are judgmental to all others who do not follow the teachings of the Adventist. Francis had the nerve to ask me who was my god? That is the attitude that comes only from Adventist. Not all, but so many. Where in Scripture are we told that the Saturday Sabbath is a prerequisite for salvation? No where. Yet he had the guts to question my salvation. No one questioned his. Everyone who answers against the Adventist is because of their judgmental attitudes. As if they are without sin, and perfect in the sight of God. Legalistic to the core.
---Mark_V. on 4/9/11


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leonia: Come clean! You really are Lee , aren't you?

What do you make of this scripture?

Gen 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed, to you it shall be for meat. [P.S., Ellen White didn't write this.]

To answer your blog question, the Jerusalem council upheld the Old Testament dietary laws concerning eating "things strangled and blood".
---jerry6593 on 4/9/11


Leonia, I have met with Ronald Numbers and he is a pleasant man but I wouldn't take much notice of what he writes.

The point you keep missing is that vegetarianism is not a church doctrine. Therefore Adventists are not commanded to be vegetarian. They teach, but do not command, that a vegetarian diet is more healthy. This is not a Scrpture-based command. Do you follow?

BTW the Levitical food laws did not forbid meat-eating.

In all the Adventist churches I have visited I have never been 'judged' because I do not hold the Saturday Sabbath. If this were so I and other non Adventist associates would not be invited to preach there. Adventists hold to the sanctity of the Sabbath, as God-honouring, but not to gain salvation.
---Warwick on 4/8/11


warwick - I am not in the least against someone becoming a vegaterian - that is a personal health thing.

My contention with the Adventists is their view that the Levitical food laws are applicable to the Christians whereas it is plain from Scripture and the very words of Jesus, that there is no restrictions on what we eat.

They have no right to judge others on what day we should or should not keep, what foods we may or may not eat, etc. Much of that teachings comes from the old sick head Ellen White.

If you wish to know more, consider reading Prophetess of Health, A study of Ellen White by Dr. Ronald Numbers.
---leonia on 4/8/11


Leonia you are basing your SDA vegetarianism beliefs on something written in 1864? Get real girl, that was 48 years before the Titanic sank, before WW1 so ancient history. I think you are just antiAdventist for some undisclosed reason.

You wrote "..all too many of the Adventism doctrines have little or no support either from the Bible or early church history."

Specifically what doctrines do you refer to?

BTW Ellen White may have a good point regarding meat. Health authorities say excess meat consumption is bad for your health. Deadly, in fact, and don't many people make pigs of themselves by excess meat consumption.

As you know I am neither an Adventist or vegetarian.
---Warwick on 4/8/11


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warwick - **Can you show me from church doctrine where Adventists are commanded to be vegetarian, on religious grounds? You know you can't.

Ellen White at one time did command her followers to be vegetarians but over time changed her viewpoint.

"Flesh-meats is not necessary for health or strength. If used it is because a depraved appetite craves it, Its use excites the animal propensities to increased activity and strengthens the animal passions. When the animal propensities are increased, the intellectual and moral powers are decreased. The use of the flesh of animals tends to cause a grossness of body, and benumbs the fine sensibilities of the mind.

EGW, An Appeal to Mothers SDA publishing Assn, 1864.
---leonia on 4/8/11


Leonia you wrote "..all too many of the Adventism doctrines have little or no support either from the Bible or early church history." Specifically what doctrines do you refer to?

You don't seem to get the point of the difference between health advice and Church doctrine. Can you show me from church doctrine where Adventists are commanded to be vegetarian, on religious grounds? You know you can't.

Many denominations have changed beliefs over the years. For example it wasn't that long ago some churches forbade dancing. Therefore why do you raise it as a criticism that the Adventists have changed some beliefs? I note you don't specifiy what beliefs have changed.
---Warwick on 4/8/11


Joshua 24:15 choose you this day whom ye will serve

Daniel 7:23 The fourth beast,(ROME) shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth Daniel 7:25 And he (ROME) shall.. think to change times and laws:

OR

Matthew 5:17 Think NOT that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
---francis on 4/8/11


**OK I have showed sabbath throughout the BIBLE
SHow me ONE command to keep SUNDAY HOLY.

Show me at least ONE hint of a command that Christians must observe the Sabbath.

There is none commanded at the Jerusalem council Acts 15 nor anywhere in the NT.

It is VERY VERY PLAIN in Romans 14:5-6 that one may esteem one day over others or none at all.

And while you are at it, explain why the church by the end of the first century no longer observed the OT sabbath except among Jewish believers.

If the OT Sabbath was to be observed, you would see something about it as a command in the NT but you do not. Nor do we see it as a teaching among the Apostles or their immediates successors.
---leonia on 4/8/11


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the Sabbath IS part of the law of Moses.

Law of Moses (Ungers Bible Dictionary) = signifies the WHOLE body of Mosaic legislation (I kings 2:3, 2 Kings 23:25, Ezra 3:2)...

Easton's Bible dictionary =Is the whole body of the Mosaic legislation #1Ki 2:3 2Ki 23:25 #Ezr 3:2 It is called by way of eminence simply "the Law" (Heb. Torah,) #De 1:5 4:8,44 17:18,19 27:3,8 As a written code it is called the "book of the law of Moses" #2Ki 14:6 Isa 8:20 the "book of the law of God" #Jos 24:26 The great leading principle of the Mosaic law is that it is essentially theocratic, i.e., it refers at once to the commandment of God as the foundation of all human duty.
---leonia on 4/8/11


**Why must these gentiles come NEXT sabbath?

The Jews continued to observe the synagogue worship service on the Sabbath, however, it provided a forum for Paul to present the gospel that Jesus was the promised Messiah.

And yes, there were Gentiles converts among the Jews, but that does not even indicate that Paul upheld the observance of the Sabbath, nor did he preach physical circumicision - the entrance rite into the Jewish religion.

Paul taught that the law only pointed out ones need for a savior as all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23) but all who believed became "justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:..."
---leonia on 4/8/11


Samuel **The Ten Commandments were not given by Moses. Most people agree nine are still in effect.

The point many reject or overlook is the FACT that love of neighbor fulfills the law.

Romans 13:9-10 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, not kill, not steal, not bear false witness, not covet, and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself Love does no wrong to a neighbor, therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

So if you love you neighbor but do not observe the OT sabbath, they do you fulfill the law? Please answer!
---leonia on 4/8/11


francis, show me ONE verse that says we may be UNholy on Sunday.

Leviticus 23

39Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the LORD seven days: on the first day shall be a sabbath, and on the eighth day shall be a sabbath.

Either this is showing that not EVERY Sabbath fell on a Saturday.....

Or it's showing how the FIRST day--Sunday--is a Sabbath.

Or both.
---Cluny on 4/8/11


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OK I have showed sabbath throughout the BIBLE
SHow me ONE command to keep SUNDAY HOLY
---francis on 4/8/11


---leonia
SABBATH IS not lAW OF MOSES

The Law of Moses is: Malachi 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
Deuteronomy 4:14 the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments,

The Law of God is:
Deuteronomy 4:12 the LORD spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude, Deuteronomy 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even TEN COMMANDMENTS and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

Moses did NOT teach the ten commandments nor did he write them GOD DID THAT!!

Noses taught EARTHLY sanctuary
---francis on 4/8/11


---Cluny on 4/8/11
Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

What difference does it make to a gentile if the word of od is taught every sabbath and they are not there to listen?

Acts 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

Acts 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Why must these gentiles come NEXT sabbath?
If there was a church teaching on first day do you not think the apostles would have said NEXT DAY, or Moses of old have them that preach him every FIRST DAY?
---francis on 4/8/11


Samuel **The Ten Commandments were not given by Moses. ... Why put a law to be done away with in the Middle of all other laws that are to stay in effect?

Because the Sabbath was the SIGN OF THE COVENANT GOD MADE only WITH ISRAEL. It is much like a seal on a legal deed.

Exodus 31:17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in 6 days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the 7th day he rested, and was refreshed.

it is only logical to believe if the observance of the OT sabbath - unique only to the Jewish race - were of any importance we would see it clearely taught in the New Testament, but we do not.

What we do see is Hebrews 4 where believers enter into that rest typified by the Sabbath.
---leonia on 4/8/11


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Deuteronomy 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.
---francis on 4/8/11


warwick - Adventists have changed many of their views over the years.

"If it is the duty of the church to abstain from swine's flesh," Ellen wrote to a couple..."God will discover it to more than 2 or 3."

Later she answered that "if it your husband's wish to use swine's flesh, you should be perfectly free to use it."

And to make sure the point got across, James write wrote on the back of the envelope, "that you may know how we stand on this question, I would say that we have just put down a 200 pound porker.'

Prophetess of Health, by Ronald Numbers, page 90 as quoted from H.E. Carver Mrs. E.G. White Claim to Divine Inspiration, Advent & Sabbath Advocate, pp. 19-20
---leonia on 4/8/11


We need to remeber that Paul changed what Circumcision was. Rom 2:29 But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly, and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter, whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.

The heart condition is where the Spirit sits. When we follow with our heart set toward GOD.

The Ten Commandments were not given by Moses. Most people agree nine are still in effect. Why was put a law that is to be done away with in the Middle of all these other laws that are to stay in effect?
---Samuel on 4/8/11


\\5: Learn more every sabbath\\

You LIE, francis.

There's NOTHING in the letter from the Apostolic Council enjoining the Sabbath on Gentiles:

27We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.

28For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things,

29That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

The entire letter that was actually sent out (vv 23-28) says NOTHING about observing the Sabbath!
---Cluny on 4/8/11


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Acts 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

These verses were written when both Jewish and Gentile Christians worshipped together but that would have been impossible if Gentiles did not honor laws that were senitive to Jewish believers.

There is nothing in the text concerning the Levitical food laws nor did they mandate observance of the OT sabbath to Gentiles.
---leonia on 4/8/11


warwick **Statistics show only c40% of Adventists are vegetarian...

It is a well known and published FACT that olde Ellen White had all sorts of health problems and joined with other health reformers in advocating refrain from certain foods.

But the Bible is VERY VERY CLEAR that "food will not commend us to God. We are no worse off if we do not eat, and no better off if we do." 1Co 8:8

And when jesus stated that what goes into the stomach does not defile one but what comes out of the heart. Adventists to get the scripture to fit their erroneous beliefs twist the scripture to get it to say something else.
---leonia on 4/8/11


Acts 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to CIRCUMCISE them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

Acts 15:6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.

The decision:

1: Did not need to be circumcised for salvation
2: Stop fornication
3: Must abstain from idolatry
4: Must obey dietary laws
5: Learn more every sabbath

Acts 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
---francis on 4/8/11


LAW OF GOD
Deuteronomy 4:12 the LORD SPAKE unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words,
And THE LORD declared unto you his covenant, which THE LORD commanded you to perform, even ten commandments, and THE LORD wrote them upon two tables of stone.
Jeremiah 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them..concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices: But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice,

LAW OF MOSES
Deuteronomy 4:14 And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land.

Malachi 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
---francis on 4/8/11


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francis - thank you for your feeble answer on the question of the decrees of the Jerusalem council. Howbeit it is very plain for those that have eyes to see, that Jewish laws - circumcision, sabbath keeping or the Levitical dietary laws were not imposed on the Gentile church.

15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Sorry that all too many of the Adventism doctrines have little or no support either from the Bible or early church history.
---leonia on 4/8/11


Was it simply a matter of circumcision or was it simply a matter that Gentiles need not observe laws that were strictly Jewish in nature?

Acts 15:2 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
---leonia on 4/8/11
Sorry, you do not believe the bible, and answering you is truely placing peals before...
---francis on 4/8/11


Leonia, from another blog: Statistics show only c40% of Adventists are vegetarian. Further to that Pacific Islander Adventists are not vegetarian and serve excellent baked chicken at church lunches. Of course along with healthy salads and fresh fruit.

In the many years I preached in Adventist churches and ate in their homes only one person told me I should be vegetarian and his reasoning was on health grounds.

Conversely in the US I have had pious legalistic Christians scold me for having a glass of wine. And they (falsely) say on Biblical grounds. All this while they stuffed their already swollen bellies with copious quantities of junk food. Ironic!

You really have it in for Adventists, don't you?
---Warwick on 4/8/11


\\Saturday was viewed as a workday in all parts of the Empire except among the Jews while Sunday was a day of rest.
---leonia on 4/8/11\\

Actually, leonia, Sunday was NEVER a pagan day of rest, as the pagans did not live according to a 7 day week. They had nothing corresponding to the Jewish weekly sabbath.

The Roman calendar organized time by the MONTH, which had three special days at unequal intervals: Calends (first), Nones (8th or 9th), and Ides (usually the 15th).
---Cluny on 4/8/11


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**NOW YOUR TURN show me FIRST DAY/ SUNDAY AS HOLY DAY

Both the Bible and church records reveal that Christians gathered on the first day of the week (Sunday) to break bread (Acts 20:7,1 Cor. 16:2).

Since the Sabbath was no longer observed by the end of the first century except among the Jews, it is clear the Apostles & their direct successors did not teach Sabbath observance.

The fact Paul presented the gospel to the Jews in their synagogues does not in the least indicate that the Sabbath was commanded.

Saturday was viewed as a workday in all parts of the Empire except among the Jews while Sunday was a day of rest.
---leonia on 4/8/11


Still waiting for you to tells us what decrees were made to Gentiles at the Jerusalem council.

Was it simply a matter of circumcision or was it simply a matter that Gentiles need not observe laws that were strictly Jewish in nature?

Acts 15:2 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
---leonia on 4/8/11


There is not a single verse in the Bible that states the Lord's day is anything but Sunday.
---leonia on 4/7/11
There is absolutly NO REASON to be that ignorant!

Isaiah 58:13 the sabbath, ..my holy day,.. the holy of the LORD, honourable,
Exodus 20:10 But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God:
Mark 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Exodus 16:23 And he said unto them, This [is that] which the LORD hath said, To morrow [is] the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD:

Exodus 16:25 And Moses said, Eat that to day, for to day [is] a sabbath unto the LORD

NOW YOUR TURN show me FIRST DAY/ SUNDAY AS HOLY DAY
---francis on 4/7/11


**The Bible says that John was in the Spirit on the KYRIAKE.
Ask any Greek what Kyriake means, and he will tell you, "Sunday."

There is not a single verse in the Bible that states the Lord's day is anything but Sunday.

Virtually ALL the early church writers spoke of the Lord's day as the first day of the week. And that is what nearly all the commentaries state.

In any case, was exactly was the decrees of the Jerusalem council? Did they mandate the Levitical food laws, the Sabbath and other strictly Jewish laws or customs to the Gentile churches?

This was the question that should be answered rather than trying to change the subject.
---leonia on 4/7/11


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The Lord's Day

Barnes notes: [if the Jewish Sabbath were intended to be designated, the word Sabbath would have been used.

The term was used generally by the early Christians to denote the first day of the week. It occurs twice in the Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians, (about A.D. 101,) who calls the Lords day "the queen and prince of all days." Chrysostom (on Psalms 119) says, "It was called the Lords day because the Lord rose from the dead on that day." ]

In light of the facts, Adventists are clearly wrong on this issue.
---leonia on 4/7/11


In the bible, only one day has been blessed and made holy. That is undisputable.

Exodus 20:11 the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

We can have holy convocation:
Leviticus 23:2 holy convocations
Gods people are a holy people
1 Peter 1:16 Be ye holy,
Some object are holy
1 Kings 8:4 holy vessels

No other day is holy. The TIME PERIOD from sunset friday to sunset saturday is HOLY.

Now as holy people we are called to live holy lives EVERY DAY, yet that does not make the day holy.

To make it simple:
You can call Sunday what ever you want, there is NO BLESSING, NO sanctification, no holiness on that TIME period, Only on the SABBATH DAY has God made HOLY.
---Francis on 4/7/11


//You're reading something into the passage that is not there.// ---Cluny on 4/6/11

your right...it is not there.

it is interesting how people come out when i speak, but are silent when there is more obvious suppositions not made by me.

i have my reasons for saying what i did.
---aka on 4/7/11


\\Show me ONE biblical reference that show first day as lord's day, blessed and hallowed.\\

Show me ONE day that we can keep in an unholy and profane manner.

Show me ONE day on which Jews do NOT worship.

And KYRIAKE still means Sunday. Had John meant Sabbath, he would have written Sabbato.
---Cluny on 4/7/11


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You don't actually think that YOU know, do you?
---Cluny on 4/7/11
lol, GOD'S WORD never CHANGES
In any book of the bible from genesis to revelation The lord's day is ALWAYS SABBATH.

And yes i do know. The word refers to that which is the lord's. Just because the RCC said that the lord's day os sunday does not make it so THE BIBLE SAYS SABBATH.

Isaiah 58:13 the sabbath, my holy day, sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable,

Deuteronomy 5:14 But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God:

Show me ONE biblical reference that show first day as lord's day, blessed and hallowed.
---francis on 4/7/11


\\Great I will leave it to the rest of the people on this blog who TRUELY want to know to do a search.

You don't actually think that YOU know, do you?

And as I've said before, the lexica in the back of Strong's (compiled by a Sunday keeper, btw) is a good tool for beginners, but useless for serious study.
---Cluny on 4/7/11


The Bible says that John was in the Spirit on the KYRIAKE.
Ask any Greek what Kyriake means, and he will tell you, "Sunday."
---Cluny on 4/7/11
Great I will leave it to the rest of the people on this blog who TRUELY want to know to do a search.

It does not mean or translate sunday
The Bible says that John was in the Spirit on the KYRIAKE.

from kurioV - kurios 2962, belonging to the Lord (Jehovah or Jesus):--Lord's.
---francis on 4/7/11


Yes any modern Greek person will. But how about a First Century Jew. Would a Jew tell you that Sunday is a holy day?
---Samuel on 4/7/11


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\\You ask this question so MANY times do you EVER look to see my answer?\\

Maybe because you've not given one.

**More than 40 years after the death of Jesus ( and the new covenant started) JOhn refers to the Sabbath as The lord's day. WHich showed that christians still kept the sabbath day as the lord's day.**

The Bible says that John was in the Spirit on the KYRIAKE.

Ask any Greek what Kyriake means, and he will tell you, "Sunday."
---Cluny on 4/7/11


Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day,

More than 40 years after the death of Jesus ( and the new covenant started) JOhn refers to the Sabbath as The lord's day. WHich showed that christians still kept the sabbath day as the lord's day.

Although many people will make an attempt to say that the Lord's day is Sunday ( the day he resurrected), theBible makes it 100% clear that the Lord's day is the sabbath.

Isaiah 58:13 the sabbath, [my holy day, the holy of the LORD, honourable,

Deuteronomy 5:14 But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God:

Mark 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
---francis on 4/7/11


Acts 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
Acts 13:43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious PROSLYTES followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

Acts 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Clearly there were several christians in that congregation on that sabbath, why did they need to come NEXT sabbath, why not meet with the Jews and religious proselytes NEXT DAY?

FACT IS: This sunday thing has no bases in scripture it is 100% satanic, a counterfiet of Gods holy day.
---francis on 4/7/11


//Why is Moses not taught every first day?//

The following is meant for information to keep in mind not for argument sake.

There were not many texts of the Torah around, they had to be hand scribed, therefore, they were kept in the synagogues. Remeber, Paul asked someone to bring the "parchment." The Torah and former/later prophets and writings were written on parchments and not papyrus.

The jews were the first Christians and had habits of meeting on the sabbath. Try to break someone's habit overnight.
---Rod4Him on 4/7/11


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---Cluny on 4/6/11
Well, my advise to you is to look at ALL my answers to your question.
You ask this question so MANY times do you EVER look to see my answer?

i will not answer again, you will have to look at another time when you asked, to see what i answered.

Acts 15:21 So why do the apostles say that Moses can be heard EVERY sabbath day?
Acts 13:42 Acts 13:44 and why do the gentiles have to wait until NEXT SABBATH to hear the word of God, when clearly there are many christians among them?

If there are christiasn churches meeting every sunday, why not tell these gentiles hear Moses every First day?

Or why not invite the gentiles to hear the gospel NEXT DAY which would be first day?
---francis on 4/6/11


francis, do you keep the commandment about not wearing blended fabrics?

Answer yes or no.
---Cluny on 4/6/11


BOTTOM LINE:
1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
---francis on 4/6/11


Well they were instructed to be present every sabbath day to hear the word of God (Moses), they would learn other things such as:
Exodus 23:19 Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.
Leviticus 19:28 Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you:
Leviticus 19:27 Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, francis

People should listen to not cutting themselves up and tattooing themselves. Paul and the Apostles stressed about no ceremonial laws, that they had a spiritual meaning.
Rom 2:29 and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter,

I have never cooked a kid in milk. That was apparently a pagan ceremony.
---Samuel on 4/6/11


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Reason,
Acts 15:1 "And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses,
ye cannot be saved."

Event:
Acts 15:5 "But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to
command them to keep the law of Moses.
"

Issues with francis,
"Stop", as if all were fornicating
"obey dietary laws", exageration (shell fish not mentioned, hamburger with cheese...)
"Learn more every sabbath", ??? Nowhere in the text!!!

15:21
Needs no explanation. We even have his written records in our Bibles.
---Nana on 4/6/11


Act 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

What difference does it make to a christian al be it a gentile convert if moses is taught every sabath day?
How does that benefit him?
Why is Moses not taught every first day?
---francis on 4/6/11


Act 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

I want to ask why are these words here and what do they mean?
---Samuel on 4/6/11
The instructions given to the gentile converts about fornication, idolary was not enough, how are these gentile to learn more:

Well they were instructed to be present every sabbath day to hear the word of God ( Moses), they would learn other things such as:
Exodus 23:19 Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.
Leviticus 19:28 Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you:
Leviticus 19:27 Ye shall not round the corners of your heads,
---francis on 4/6/11


Now we need to read the verse following the statement about what not to do.

Act 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

I want to ask why are these words here and what do they mean?

In History the Jews changed their services beacause so many Christians attended Sabbath services. Just a History fact.
---Samuel on 4/6/11


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Acts 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to CIRCUMCISE them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

Acts 15:6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.

The decision:

1: Did not need to be circumcised for salvation
2: Stop fornication
3: Must abstain from idolatry
4: Must obey dietary laws
5: Learn more every sabbath

Acts 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
---francis on 4/6/11


Christianity was spreading to places other than people of Jewish background. Some people wanted gentiles to become jewish first then become christian and practice the 600 laws plus the 6000 man made laws derived from the 600 God given laws. What the council did was make it simple. The rules are no sexual immorality, no food sacrificed to idols, and no strangled animals, blood. This abolished the laws of circumsion, kosher food vs "dirty food", sacrificing animals, on sabbath only going a certain number of steps from home etc.
---Scott on 4/6/11


"to warn them of hidden (secret) practices which are an abomination to God."
---aka on 4/6/11

Where did you get that from? ?What abominations?
---Nana on 4/6/11


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