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Colossians 2:16-17. Please explain using context, verses, Greek, or verb usage. Should people not let others judge them for keeping food, drink, festivals, new moons, or sabbaths, or is it that Christians should not to pay attention to food and special days?

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 ---Rod4Him on 4/7/11
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Isaiah 1:11What are your multiplied sacrifices to Me?...
And I take no pleasure in the blood of bulls, lambs or goats.
...Who requires of you this trampling of My courts?
[13]Bring your worthless offerings no longer,
Incense is an abomination to Me.
New moon and sabbath, the calling of assemblies
I cannot endure iniquity and the solemn assembly.
[14]I hate your new moon festivals and your appointed feasts,
They have become a burden to Me,
I am weary of bearing them. ...
[16]Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean,
Remove the evil of your deeds from My sight.
Cease to do evil,
[17]Learn to do good,
Seek justice,
Reprove the ruthless,
Defend the orphan,
Plead for the widow.
---Rod4Him on 4/16/11


LAW OF MOSES is so called because Moses teaches it DIRECTLY to israel and writes it in a book
Deuteronomy 31:24 And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished,

Book was on the SIDE of the ARk, Deuteronomy 31:25 That Moses commanded the Levites, Take this book of the law, and put it IN THE SIDE of the ark

LAW OF GOD is so called because God commands it DIRECTLY to israel and writes it with his own finger on stone
Deuteronomy 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, [even] ten commandments, and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.
LAW OF GOD IN the ark:
Deuteronomy 10:2..and thou shalt put them in the ark.
---Francis on 4/16/11


10 COMMANDMENTS is the LAW OF LIBERTY
James 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being NOT A FORGETFUL HEARER BUT A DOER of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
James 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be JUDGED BY THE LAW OF LIBERTY.

Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be JUDGED BY THE LAW,

Romans 2:13 (For not the HEARERS OF THE LAW [are] just before God, but theDOERS OF THE LAW shall be justified.
---Francis on 4/16/11


Right in front of your face francis, and you still can't see. Typed by your own fingers, yet you still don't understand.
The covenant of God with Israel followed by commands for them.
The restrictive laws of sin rather than the unbound laws of love and liberty.
I will say again, but you will not understand until God opens your eyes, The ten commandments can be fulfilled by doing nothing(passivity), but the Royal laws of Love require action.
Indifference can fulfill the ten commandments, but not the 2 laws of love.
Just ask the rich man who kept the laws but turned away from Jesus.
---micha9344 on 4/15/11


LAW OF MOSES Malachi 4:4 Remember ye the LAW OF MOSES my servant, which I commanded unto HIM in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
Deuteronomy 4:14 And the LORD commanded me (MOSES)at that time to TEACH you( ISRAEL)..

LAW OF GOD Jeremiah 7:22 For I(GOD) SPAKE NOT unto your fathers, nor commanded ..concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices: But this thing commanded (GOD)I them( ISRAEL), saying, Obey my voice,
Deuteronomy 4:12 And the LORD spake unto you(ISRAEL) out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice, And he(GOD) DECLARED unto you(ISRAE) his covenant, which he(GOD) COMMANDED you (ISRAEL)to perform, [even] TEN COMMANDMENTS, and he( GOD) wrote them upon two tables of stone.
---Francis on 4/15/11




\\Then adds: 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. \\

The separation of the law into several categories, even giving the Decalogue a special prominence is a tradition and precept of men.

The Bible knows only ONE law: The Law, of which to offend in one point (such as wearing blended fabrics or lighting fires on the Sabbath) is to make one guilty of breaking them all.
---Cluny on 4/15/11


Sin can be more than disobedience to the 10 commandments.

In the listing of sins - Mk 7:21f, Romans 1:29, Gal. 5:19f, & 2 Tim. 3:1f - we find that
pride,reckless folly,
quarrelsome,spitefulness,
indecency, insolence,
backbiting, lack of pity,
strifefulness,hard drinking,
lack of self-control, being unforgiving,
lack of natural affection,
reviling,
creating factions, being profane,
being treacherousness, being headstrong,
lovers of money, irreligious,
intrigues, outburst of passion,
thanklessness, lovers of pleasuremake-believe pity,
haughtiness are also viewed as sins.

MISSING is breaking the OT Sabbath probably because it was not part of the New Covenant.


---leonia on 4/15/11


---StrongAxe on 4/15/11
Fair question. A list would bemore than 125 words

In this context, paul speaking of the Law references one of the commandments
Romans 7:7 I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Then adds: 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

So we know that he is speaking about the ten commandments. It is the law in which we find the commandment: Thu shall not covet.

Peter links adultery and coveteousness with the holy commandments
2 Peter 2:14 Having eyes full of adultery,..with covetous practices,
2 Peter 2:21 turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

So we know that the ten commandments are Holy
---Francis on 4/15/11


\\Because from what I can tell, the Old Testament intermingles all kinds of commandments together without distinguishing what "type" they are.\\

A good example of this intermingling is Deut. 19.
---Cluny on 4/15/11


---StrongAxe on 4/15/11
Fair question list of carnal would be more than 125 words.

Hebrews 9:1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
Hebrews 9:10 Which stoodonly in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and CARNAL ORDINANCES, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

The carnal ordinances performed here are those which are performed in the earthly sanctuary by man

Those ordinances were imposed until the time of reformation ( christ death) So those ordinances we know must pass away as the bible says.

Examples 2 Chronicles 35:11 And they killed the passover, and the priests sprinkled the blood
2 Chronicles 35:13 according to the ORDINANCE
---francis on 4/15/11




The only types of law mentioned in a Bible dictionary are as follows:

1. The Law of Nature is the will of God as to human conduct, founded on the moral difference of things, and discoverable by natural light #Ro 1:20 2:14,15
2. The Ceremonial Law prescribes under the Old Testament the rites and ceremonies of worship, obligatory only until the time of Christ.
3. The Judicial Law, the law which directed the civil policy of the Hebrew nation.
4.The Moral Law is the revealed will of God as to human conduct, binding on all men to the end of time.

You will not find any reference to 'sanctuary law' anyplace in the Bible.
---leonia on 4/15/11


Galatians 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Look how many times this precept appears in the NT:

Colossians 2:16 Let no man judge you in meat, drink, an holyday, the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a SHADOW of things to come, but the body is of Christ.

Hebrews 8:5 Who serve unto the EXAMPLE and SHADOW of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished..to make the TABANACLE:
Hebrews 10:1 the LAW HAVING A SHADOW of good things to come,.sacrifices

Hebrews 9:2 a tabernacle which is called the sanctuary.
Hebrews 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, UNTIL THE TIME OF REFORMATION

SURELY NOT TEN COMMANDMENTS
---Francis on 4/15/11


And if the Saturday sabbath and not teaching pork are part of the law--and you insist they are--why were THESE not the schoolmaster that we no longer need?

Please explain, francis.
---Cluny

A tutor teaches you how to read. When you graduate school are you supposed to forget how to read since you are no longer under a tutor?

The law does not and cannot save. That is not it's job. It tells us right and wrong. Some laws explain how to live healthier. like wash your hands before you eat, use sanitation do not eat what is bad for you. Is it wrong to listen to GOD who designed us and follow his directions?
---Samuel on 4/15/11


Can you show a list of just which Old Testament commandments are spiritual (and eternal) and which ones are carnal (and temporal)? Or, absent a list, how we can tell which is which? Because from what I can tell, the Old Testament intermingles all kinds of commandments together without distinguishing what "type" they are. StrongAxe

Good point it does. The Ten commandments are main list. But in the OT love of GOD was always number one and love neighbor Two. Those laws that deal with love of GOD and neighbor are in effect. Example do not sleep with animals. Do not sleep with your Father's wife. Most recognize theses as still being in effect. I do not have room here to go into more detail.
---Samuel on 4/15/11


purpose of this verse was to TEACH The Colossians who were NEW followers in Christ that people around them were going to JUDGE them because they were no longer doing as they ONCE did - INSTEAD the new Collossian followers in Christ were doing as Christ and Apostles did - keeping the Sabbath and observing the dietary requirements for good health

instead these wicked false ministers twisted the truth to their LIE so their followers would believe THEM and not seek understanding from Holy Scripture

Imagine Colossians NEW Followers in Christ still DOING all things they once did supposedly taught not to let anyone judge them in continuing to do as they always did "in a Christ" - as wicked false ministers teach today! absurd
---Rhonda on 4/15/11


Gal. 4:23f But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

The verse says the law was our schoolmaster, it does not say the sanctuary law was our schoolmaster as francis wants to say.
---leonia on 4/15/11


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\\The bible lists some commandmentsas CARNAL, and sme commandments as SPIRITUAL\\

No, it doesn't.

You're grasping at straws.

And if what animal flesh to eat is not carnal, what is?
---Cluny on 4/15/11


Francis:

Can you show a list of just which Old Testament commandments are spiritual (and eternal) and which ones are carnal (and temporal)? Or, absent a list, how we can tell which is which? Because from what I can tell, the Old Testament intermingles all kinds of commandments together without distinguishing what "type" they are.
---StrongAxe on 4/15/11


Cluny Here they are:
EARTHLY HIGH PRIEST..Hebrews 3:1 High Priest, Christ Jesus,
EARTHLY SANCTUARY..Hebrews 8:2 the sanctuary which the Lord pitched, and not man.
LIGHT..John 9:5 I am the light of the world.
PASSOVER..1 Corinthians 5:7 Christ our passover
SHEWBREAD..John 6:35 I am the bread
BLOOD OF ANIMALS..Hebrews 9:12.. His own blood
WATER..John 4:14 a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

FEASTS: Passover, pentecost, and unleaven bread have all been fulfiled in time with christ. Day of atonement is NOW.Hebrews 9:26

Everything that was in the EARTHLY SANCTUARY WAS A SCHOOLMASTER pointing to what Jesus would do for our salvation That is in habrews 8 and 9 and 10
---Francis on 4/15/11


The bible lists some commandmentsas CARNAL, and sme commandments as SPIRITUAL. Because those are two opposites, they cannot be the same commandments.

Romans 7:12 Wherefore the law [is] holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual:

Hebrews 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.



That which is holy and spiritual will last forver, That which is carnal is temporal

Ten commandments: HOLY
Sabbath: Holy
Animal sacrifice: CARNAL
---Francis on 4/15/11


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\\Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Galatians 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
\\

And if the Saturday sabbath and not teaching pork are part of the law--and you insist they are--why were THESE not the schoolmaster that we no longer need?

Please explain, francis.
---Cluny on 4/14/11


must the believer achieve sinlessness in order to be saved? leonia

No. The believer cannot live in unrepented sin either. Read First John.

If you reject circumcision ... then why not the OT sabbath - another law not even hinted as a command in the New Covenant? leonia

We are Justified by faith alone. But you ignore Romans 3:31 and 7. Which tell us the law is established by Grace.

The Sabbath is mentioned many times in the NT. It is talked about and spoken of as how to be kept in the Gospels and letters. But they are the main places where all the Ten commandments are mentioned. The Second Commandment is not repeated verbatim in the NT. The Sabbath is mentioned in Hebrews 4 as pointing towards heaven.
---Samuel on 4/14/11


You can't hide behind this verse when it's convenient for you, and yet expect others to observe the Saturday Sabbath and OT dietary restrictions, just because you choose to do so.
Cluny


I choose to keep the Sabbath because JESUS did so as an example and it is one of the Ten Commandments. It is mentioned in Hebrews as pointing to our life in Heaven. There is no verse in the New Testament that says not to keep Sabbath and many examples of where it is kept.
The Dietary laws are health regulations that help me live a longer healthier life. I suggest them to people just like I say you should wash your hands before you eat and to not destroy your body with drugs.
---Samuel on 4/14/11


It appears that some would say that not keeping the Sabbath is a sin. However, what does that mean, it is a sin? How does one keep the Sabbath? When does it start, and when does it finish...?
What can one do on the Sabbath? What can they not do on the Sabbath? And who decides what keeping the Sabbath means?

Does keeping food, drink, festivals, new moons or sabbaths add any justification, righteousness, or merit to a person?
---Rod4Him

No they don't. Eating propler food helps to live a good long life but that is it.

Now the rules on sabbath you ask about are good questions. There are some guidlines in the Bible but a lot is up to you. The goal is to spend a whole day with GOD in a way that when you work you cannot.
---Samuel on 4/14/11


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what does that mean, it is a sin? How does one keep the Sabbath?-Rod4Him 4/14/11

1 John 3:4 for sin is the transgression of the law.
Romans 3:20 for by the law is the knowledge of sin
Romans 7:7 I had not known sin, but by the law: Thou shalt not covet.
See James 2:10-11

Leviticus 23:32 from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath.

Exodus 20:10 But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work,

Ezekiel 46:3 the people of the land shall worship..gate before the LORD in the sabbaths.

Matthew 12:12 do well on the sabbath days.

Acts 13:44 sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

See Isaiah 58:13
---FRANCS on 4/14/11


leonia and cluny

You BOTH obey these 9 commandments:

1. Do not worship other gods.
2. Do not worship idols.
3. Do not misuse God's name.
4.
5. Honor your father & mother.
6. Do not murder.
7. Do not commit adultery.
8. Do not steal.
9. Do not lie.
10. Do not covet.

So then if you keep these nine, are you both also circumcised?

Cluny are you not picking and choosing which to observe? 9/10 in you are catholic 8/10

This is your lack of knowledge question:: "and if you do not keep the law, can one be justified?"

BIBLE ANSWER:
Romans 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
---francis on 4/14/11


It appears that some would say that not keeping the Sabbath is a sin. However, what does that mean, it is a sin? How does one keep the Sabbath? When does it start, and when does it finish, at three stars in the evening?
What can one do on the Sabbath? What can they not do on the Sabbath? And who decides what keeping the Sabbath means?

Does keeping food, drink, festivals, new moons or sabbaths add any justification, righteousness, or merit to a person?
---Rod4Him on 4/14/11


---Mark_Eaton on 4/13/11
I guess you think that because I obey the law that I see the Law as a means to salvation.

You are wrong
My ONLY means to salvation is GRACE through Jesus.

So why do I keep the law of God?

Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey, whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
---francis on 4/13/11


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francis - cluny is correct in that if you say we must keep the law, then one law is physical circumcision.

If you reject circumcision - a law nullified in the New Covenant, then why not the OT sabbath - another law not even hinted as a command in the New Covenant?

Romans 1:17 Ro 1:17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, The righteous shall live by faith.

Ro 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

Ga 3:11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for The righteous shall live by faith.

Francis - if you do not keep the law, can one be justified?
---leonia on 4/13/11


\\I am not sure why, but I expect better from you\\

What you're saying, francis, is that you pick and choose which of God's commandments you observe.

\\And christ is the fulfillment of them.

Hebrews 10:1 For the law having a SHADOW of good things to come, [and] not the very image of the things,\\

francis, you can't have it both ways.

You can't hide behind this verse when it's convenient for you, and yet expect others to observe the Saturday sabbath and OT dietary restrictions, just because you choose to do so.

And if you say, "It's not me. It's GOD" or words to that effect, you are simply fooling yourself.
---Cluny on 4/13/11


Rom 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

francis & Jerry - can one have the free gift of God and still sin on occasion or does the Christian become sinless upon regeneration?

Or to put it another way, must the believer achieve sinlessness in order to be saved eternally?
---leonia on 4/13/11


francis:

Exodus 12:49 is staying that strangers living in Israel (i.e. under the jurisdiction of Jewish law) should be subject to the same laws as the Jews. Our laws in America (and probably all other countries) are no different.

However, WE are not living in pre-Christian Palestine, so those laws do not apply to us. You yourself just quoted Galatians 3:25 and Hebrews 10:1 that point out that we are not bound by those laws. Yet in some cases, you insist that we ARE bound by some of those laws. So which is it? Are we bound by them, or are we not? And if the answer is "sometimes yes, and sometimes no", could you please clarify what justification you have for feeling that we are bound by some and not others?
---StrongAxe on 4/13/11


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Let me ask a question:
You obey these nine commandments
THE TEN COMMANDMENTS
1. Do not worship other gods.
2. Do not worship idols.
3. Do not misuse God's name.
4.
5. Honor your father & mother.
6. Do not murder.
7. Do not commit adultery.
8. Do not steal.
9. Do not lie.
10. Do not covet.

And a few others not in the ten commandments, do you do it for salvation? No. So why do you assume that one who obeys all ten commandments do it for salvation?

Again: is 9/10 the seperation between grace and legalism? NO. If you are not keeping the whole law, you are living in sin.(james 2:10) If you say you have not sinned you deceive yourself. If you confess your sin, God is willing to forgive.
---francis on 4/13/11


And if YOU observe it, are you circumcised? If not, you are breaking God's law.
---Cluny on 4/12/11
I am not sure why, but I expect better from you.
Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Galatians 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

The passover taught us of christ who would be sacrificed for us.
Circumcision taught us about having faith and removing the "flesh"

And christ is the fulfillment of them.

Hebrews 10:1 For the law having a SHADOW of good things to come, [and] not the very image of the things,

I must lower my expectation of you
---francis on 4/13/11


\\If all had had given was one verse, you may say out of context, but three verses allowing non jews to participate fully in the law and feasts of God canot be out of context.\\

francis, three verses out of context are still three verses out of context.

And I noticed you did not actually answer my question.

Why?
---Cluny on 4/13/11


To place a difference between the Sabbaths set up to remeber feasts that pointed to JESUS and teach us about his ministry and the one in the Ten Commandments that points back to creation and of which we are reminded of in Revelation. That is not just picking a Sabbath. But acknowledging that the Ten Commandments are for all Christians.

Tell me is it a sin for pagans to worship other gods?
---Samuel on 4/13/11


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*When we read the bible, there is a tradition by the jews who returned from captivity to keep at arms length those who were not jewish. This is not scriptural.
One blogger insisted that Gentile Christians were to go to the local synagogues and learn the law so they could follow it. However, if it was true that Gentiles and Jew did not mix well, that would have been impractical. The fact is that the church had it own meeting places - usually homes, and had its own ruling elders who were responsible for teaching new converts, and all that apart from the Jewish institutions.
---leonia on 4/13/11


The choice is OURS:

Romans 6:16 whether of SIN unto DEATH, or of OBEDIENCE unto RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Romans 6:15 shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace?

SOME OF US, RATHER THAN CONFESSING OUR SIN, ARE DENYING OUR SIN
---francis on 4/12/11

Same Book and Chapter:

Rom 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord"

Does this verse say eternal life by keeping the Law? Does it say eternal life by being obedient? Does it say eternal life by anything other than Jesus?
---Mark_Eaton on 4/13/11


Interlinear Greek - English NT on Colossians 2:16.

Not 'therefore' anyone you let judge in eating and in drinking or in respect of a feast or of a new moon or of sabbaths, which things is(are) a shadow of things coming but the body [is]- of Christ.

the 'therefore' refers back to verses 13-15 where it mentions 'He forgive us all our sins, having canceled the written code with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us, he took it away, nailing it to the cross. ...'

Since the old written code (includes the Levitical food laws) was cancelled, the Christian is no longer subject to them and should not be judged by them from others.
---leonia on 4/13/11


--Cluny on 4/12/11

If all had had given was one verse, you may say out of context, but three verses allowing non jews to participate fully in the law and feasts of God canot be out of context.

Maybe a better question from you is why do they need to be circumcised before eating the passover and not what ever you said.

unless of course you are suggesting that only jews are allowed to participate in the things of God?
---francis on 4/13/11


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\\Exodus 12:49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the STRANGER that sojourneth among you. \\

You keep on ripping this verse from out of its context, francis.

It's talking about who may eat the Passover meal. And it says that only the men who are circumcised are permitted to eat of it.

BTW, this is one of those days that is called a Sabbath. Do you observe Pesach, or do you pick and choose which of the Sabbaths you observe?

And if YOU observe it, are you circumcised? If not, you are breaking God's law.
---Cluny on 4/12/11


When we read the bible, there is a tradition by the jews who returned from captivity to keep at arms length those who were not jewish. This is not scriptural. They would not allow non-jews to worship or even enter the temple. Although this is mentioned in the bible, the act itself is not of God or biblical.

Mark 11:17 And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer?
Isaiah 56:7 for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

Some of the things which I have read here truely have no bases in scripture, but rather traditions made by men. It is easy to see how over time, none biblical traditions can be doctrine.
---Francis on 4/12/11


Exodus 12:49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the STRANGER that sojourneth among you.

Isaiah 56:6 the sons of the STRANGER, that join themselves to the LORD, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant,

Isaiah 56:7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices [shall be] accepted upon mine altar, for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for ALL PEOPLE.

Most people think that the Laws of God were for Jews only, and that the temple was for Jews only. But the word of God says different. They base their beliefs on behavior of the Jews toward none jews rather than scripture
---Francis on 4/12/11


One of the problems that develops is that the Ten Commandments are compared by some people to all the other laws.

The Ten Commandments were given in a different manner and were written on stone by GOD himself. This is different than how the rest was delivered. One famous Rabbi says the other 600 laws are comments on the Ten. This is somewhat true.

Some of the other laws dealt with government, health, and moral questions. Those that dealt with moral questions like do not sleep with your Father's ex-wife are in a moral setting. The Seventh day Sabbath is set in a Moral law setting. Many church Fathers have all stated the Sabbath is a moral commandment.
---Samuel on 4/12/11


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they are good rememberances of what God did, but they are shadows of the substance of Christ, and people shouldn't be judged if they keep them or don't keep them, remembering that they were given specifically for the Jews.
---Rod4Him on 4/12/11
AGREED
---francis on 4/12/11


francis, and I value your personal consistency. I just don't think the list in Colossians is a "have to," although I appreciate the meanings.

I personally went out to the Jordan Valley to look for Aviv and then the new moon to confirm the Biblical New Year. It was too cloudy to see the new moon in Jerusalem this year, but I will experience Passover and unleaven bread "in the land." However, I emphasize that they are good rememberances of what God did, but they are shadows of the substance of Christ, and people shouldn't be judged if they keep them or don't keep them, remembering that they were given specifically for the Jews.
---Rod4Him on 4/12/11


Rod4Him, although SDA churches do not follow the feast, and sabbath days. i wish they would. There is much value in seeing the christ which is behind these feasts. Talking about the christ of passover, or the spirit of penticost, the value of day of atonement, or feast of trumpets can only enhance our understanding of the plan of redeemption and enhance our appriciating of the gift of salvation. Understanding the vaue of the new moon in light of the tree of life can only enhance our understanding of God
---francis on 4/12/11


Excellent theme francis...let's preach and focus on that without getting side tracked.
---Rod4Him on 4/11/11


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Here's a short story behind this question. I have friends who interpret the verse that Christians should keep festivals, new moons, and sabbaths. It seems to start with keeping the sabbath with the others to follow, at least they are consistent.

However, in rethinking the verse, it says not to judge, and following the theme of Colossians would confirm that those are shadows of Christ, and need not be followed because the substance is Christ.

Next, my observance is that once they go down that road (religious legalism), they have to become their own rabbi to interpret how to observe those occasions, developing their own oral law, going so far as to say Paul was wrong in Romans and Galatians.
---Rod4Him on 4/11/11


francis, do you own your own residence?

Will you be returning it to the original owner after 7 years, as the Bible commands?

I admit there are other passages that suggest 49 or 50 years.

But my point--is this one of the commandments that you choose not to obey, like not wearing blended fabrics?
---Cluny on 4/11/11


What is the theme of Colossians?
---Rod4Him on 4/10/11

The theme of Colossians is the supremacy, and suffiency of Christ in all thngs. Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Colossians 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Colossians 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
---francis on 4/11/11


BTW, I was asking for an explanation of the passage, not an exercise in Bible gymnastics, coming up with a statement of faith of a denomination. Just a simple, "what does it say?"
---Rod4Him on 4/11/11
You question was:
Colossians 2:16-17. Please explain using CONTEXT, VERSES, Greek, or verb usage..

I gave you CONTEXT, references verses and MORE so why the complaint?
---francis on 4/11/11


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Apparently, francis' explanation is that Paul was wrong, or these passages need ripped out of the Bible.
---Rod4Him on 4/11/11
Where do you see that in my posts?
I gave as good an explaination as could be given in a 125 word blog, i went back to the original reference text ( Levi 23) and showed how every feast was fulfiled in Jesus, I gave a listing of the shadows that were fulfilled by christ with NT text, and then added that we are not obligated to observe these feast or make drink and meat offerings, which is the full explaination of Colossians 2:16-17. Then I posted where paul himself said that we MUST judge those who are in the church. So I am very disappointed in your post to say what I have NEVER said.
---francis on 4/11/11


Speaking of Judging:
Ezekiel 3:18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die, and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life, the same wicked [man] shall die in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at thine hand.

Are we not obligated to tell people that they are not living according to the will of God?

1 Corinthians 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

Are we not even more obligated to help our brothers and sisters when we see them going astray?
---francis on 4/11/11


//Speaking of Judging://

Which is the topic of Colossian 2:16-17.

Are you disagreeing with Paul? It sounds like francis is saying Paul was wrong and that people are to judge people for the list in Colossians.

Paul goes on to say in 2:20-21 "...why...do you submit yourself to degrees, such as, Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!"

Apparently, francis' explanation is that Paul was wrong, or these passages need ripped out of the Bible.

BTW, I was asking for an explanation of the passage, not an exercise in Bible gymnastics, coming up with a statement of faith of a denomination. Just a simple, "what does it say?"
---Rod4Him on 4/11/11


What is the theme of Colossians?
---Rod4Him on 4/10/11


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Speaking of Judging:
Ezekiel 3:18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die, and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life, the same wicked [man] shall die in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at thine hand.

Are we not obligated to tell people that they are not living according to the will of God?

1 Corinthians 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

Are we not even more obligated to help our brothers and sisters when we see them going astray?
---Francis on 4/10/11


Number 5 is incorrect because we MUST follow GOD's dietary laws
Isaiah 66:17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one [tree] in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.

All the rest are incorrect because they include both sabbaths ( of the ten commandments) and dietary laws.

I just posted Gods warning against violating the dietary laws, and we all know God's warning against violating the TEN ( not 9/10) but the whole law
James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.

What would the laws against eating swine be a shadow of?
---Francis on 4/10/11


Which of the following statements sound correct?

(1) If a person choses to follow Torah's dietary laws, festivals, new moons, or sabbaths, people should not judge them for that.

(2) If a person choses not to follow Torah's dietary laws, festivals, new moons, or sabbaths, people should not judge them for that.

(3) People should follow Torah's dietary laws, festivals, new moons, or sabbaths.

(4) People should not follow Torah's dietary laws, festivals, new moons, or sabbaths.

(5) People should only keep the sabbath?
---Rod4Him on 4/10/11


Colossians 2:17 Which are a SHADOW of things to come,

Here they are:
EARTHLY HIGH PRIEST..Hebrews 3:1 High Priest, Christ Jesus,
EARTHLY SANCTUARY..Hebrews 8:2 the sanctuary which the Lord pitched, and not man.
LIGHT..John 9:5 I am the light of the world.
PASSOVER..1 Corinthians 5:7 Christ our passover
SHEWBREAD..John 6:35 I am the bread
BLOOD OF ANIMALS..Hebrews 9:12.. His own blood
WATER..John 4:14 a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

FEASTS: Passover, pentecost, and unleaven bread have all been fulfiled in time with christ. Day of atonement is NOW..
Hebrews 9:26 ..NOW once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
---Francis on 4/9/11


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Afflicting the soul" was not allowed on the weekly sabbath.
---Cluny on 4/8/11
i AM NOT SURE WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO SAY HERE, nor do i know how it fits with what we are talking about.
What i am showing is that God gave many feasts, every feast had a sabbath with it, yet God seperated the weekly sabbath from the feast sabbath.

Leviticus 23:37 These [are] the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim [to be] holy convocations, to offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD, a burnt offering, and a meat offering, a sacrifice, and drink offerings, every thing upon his day:
Leviticus 23:38 BESIDE the sabbaths of the LORD,

tHIS IS THE ot REFERENCE TEXT FOR COLOSIANS 2 16-18
---FRANCIS on 4/8/11


Try again, francis.

Leviticus 19:30
Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD.

Leviticus 23
Read this whole chapter carefully, francis. It's not talking about the weekly sabbath, as can bee seen in these verses:

Leviticus 23:24
Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation.

Leviticus 23:32
It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath.

"Afflicting the soul" was not allowed on the weekly sabbath.

And so it goes.
---Cluny on 4/8/11


The Seventh day Sabbath points to GOD as our creator. Genesis 2. In Hebrews 4 it points to our life in the New Earth. It is important to our health and well being. Both physical and Spiritual. Taking a day to spend with GOD is very important.

It always amazes me that people who want to spend eternity with GOD do not want to spend a whole day with Him now.

I see many peopole judging those of us who by avoiding those foods that GOD says are bad for us and who want to spend time with GOD are lost. In effect they judge us for listening to GOD. That does not seem right.
---Samuel on 4/8/11


---Rod4Him on 4/8/11 I like that question.

Genesis 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night, and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Psalms 104:19 He appointed the moon for seasons: the sun knoweth his going down.

The relationships: Earth and the earth (rotation) one day
The moon and the earth( revolution) one month
The sun and earth(revolution) one year

Revelation 22:2 tree of life, which.. yielded her fruit every month:
Isaiah 66:22 the new heavens and the new earth,..from one new moon to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me,
---francis on 4/8/11


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This is a distinction the Bible itself does not make, because ALL the feasts of Old Israel are called "sabbaths".
---Cluny on 4/8/11

Well, here it is:

Leviticus 23:37 These [are] the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim [to be] holy convocations, to offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD, a burnt offering, and a meat offering, a sacrifice, and drink offerings, every thing upon his day:

Leviticus 23:38 BESIDE THE SABBATHS OF THE LORD, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the LORD.
---francis on 4/8/11


//The sabbath dayS, different from sabbathS, are days on which a feast like passover would fall, each feat day had a sabbath or several sabbath days.//

This is a distinction the Bible itself does not make, because ALL the feasts of Old Israel are called "sabbaths".

Which brought up a question I was going to ask you, francis: Do you pick and choose which of God's sabbaths you observe?
---Cluny on 4/8/11


//HoThe new moon points to a time in the new jerusalem when we will all eat from the tree of life. It give it's fruit every month. New moon is new month.//

Please explain where this is found.

My understanding is that the new month is used in the Hebrew calendar, which indicates when their feasts should be held. For example, if the barley is ripe (Abib), and a new moon happens at the same time, then passover is 14 days later.

//The sabbath dayS, different from sabbathS, are days on which a feast like passover would fall, each feat day had a sabbath or several sabbath days.//

Sounds right, however, where is this described in Scripture?
---Rod4Him on 4/8/11


HoThe new moon points to a time in the new jerusalem when we will all eat from the tree of life. It give it's fruit every month. New moon is new month.

The sabbath dayS, different from sabbathS, are days on which a feast like passover would fall, each feat day had a sabbath or several sabbath days.

God ofcourse in given the laws of feasts, new moon, drink offering, meat offering made a distinction between the weekly sabbaths, and the sabbath days.

Leviticus 23:38 Beside the sabbaths of the LORD,..

Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, Isaiah 66:23 from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD
---francis on 4/7/11


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So as a believer in the risen Lord, I am not compelled to keep any of the feasts which are shadows for christ is the fulfilment

1 Corinthians 5:7 Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
Christ taking away my sin is my feast of unleavened bread:
1 Corinthians 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast,.with the unleavened [bread] of sincerity and truth.
The holy spirit has come in pentcost:
Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost,
My day of atonement is taken care of by Jesus:
Hebrews 9:26 now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
And i do not have to make any drink or meat offerings.

KEY: Leviticus 23:38 Beside the sabbaths of the LORD..
---Francis on 4/7/11


You can have your shadow, francis, with your preoccupation with new moons, sabbaths, and feasts, together with your adherence to the false gospel of "Touch not, taste not, handle not."

I'll take the substance, which is Christ.
---Cluny on 4/7/11


the part of this verse that is often overlook is:Colossians 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come, but the body is of Christ.

NOW WHAT DOES NT SAY:
Hebrews 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come..

Hebrews 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come

1: WHO: Hebrews 9:11 CHRIST as HIGH PRIEST.
2: WHERE: Hebrews 9:11 a greater and more perfect tabernacle, verse 24: into heaven itself,
3: HOW: Hebrews 9:12 by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place
4: WHY: Hebrews 9:14 purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God
5: WHEN Hebrews 9:24 NOW to appear in the presence of God for us:
6: WHAT: Hebrews 9:27 the judgment
---francis on 4/7/11


Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath Which are a SHADOW of things to come,
OT REFERENCE:
Leviticus 23:4-38 These are the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, to offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD, a burnt offering, and a meat offering, a sacrifice, and drink offerings, every thing upon his day:
OTHER NT reference:
Hebrews 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

Meat and drink refers only to MEAT OFFERING AND DRINK OFFERINGS of the OT sanctuary which were a SHADOW of Christ body and blood
---Francis on 4/7/11


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I think the refernce is mainly about judging.

I talked once with a Jewish Christian and many people judged him for keeping all the sabbath of the Old Testament. He explained to me that he knew most were symbols of JESUS.

I reassured him that I did not judge him.

Unfortunatly way to much judgeing goes on.
---Samuel on 4/7/11


I think it's that no CHRISTIAN should pay attention to anyone judging him about what he eats or what days he keeps holy, like someone here I need not name.
---Cluny on 4/7/11


If you do, God bless you, if you dont' he'll bless you again.
---andy3996 on 4/7/11


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