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Scared To Teach The Bible

I accepted Christ 39 years ago. Why do many Churches refuse to teach/preach the following passages of Scripture? 2 Timothy 2:14-19, Acts 17:11, 2 Peter Chapter Two, and 2 Corinthians Chapter Eleven.

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 ---Rob on 4/15/11
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trav,

My point is, (wither they are certainly from God or not,since there is debate) the scripture we all use is plenty to suffice us in this life. It is really not beneficial to anyone to argue over wither they are or not. If you do, then good. If you don't, be careful about condemning something that is not certain.
---willa5568 on 4/26/11


Ignatius, you are correct. However if you look at my post of 22/04/11 you will see I wrote "That Jesus and the apostles quoted from or alluded to all the OT books is clear evidence that they considered these books inspired." And "Jesus and the apostles quoted from or alluded to just the first 11 chapters of Genesis 107 times!"

If you are content within the Orthodox fold then so be it. Its darkness, and its turgid liturgy is not for me.

---Warwick on 4/26/11


Ignatius,

... , it really has no significance on our learning of God and Christ.

---willa5568 on 4/26/11

Curious to see if world traveler would state the obvious. Obviously not.

We have a hard time applying the context value of the who begat who books having NCovenant testimony.
But they do. Is a diary of Israels relationship, with & without GOD, her husband. The marriage and divorce,death & remarriage. Fact that Apostles refer to "Prophets"....and these books mentioned qualify would be logic enough for acceptance.
Book of Books is written by,to and for the people that GOD was with. Some,ignoring them think they have usurped them and making the mistake Judah has and does.
---Trav on 4/26/11


Ignatius,

I do not reject them, I only believe wither they are or not accepted, it really has no significance on our learning of God and Christ.

I also did some research on these books and thought it would be posted, but apparently not. I admit I was wrong in what I said because I did not research for myself about the history of them. I would encourage anyone that has not to do so before you reject them completely!
---willa5568 on 4/26/11


Warwick,

I said quotations, not allusions. My point still stands. If willa5568 and others wants to reject books such as Tobit, Judith, Sirach, etc, (Scriptures to most Christians) because Christ or the Apostles never quoted them, then they must also reject Judges, 1 Chronicles, Nahum, Zephaniah, Obadiah, Esther, Ruth, Ezra, Nehemiah, Ecclesiastes, Lamentations, and the Song of Songs based on the same reasoning.

FWIW., the Divine Liturgies, icons, incenses, etc, with not mean on thing without a firm conviction on the Risen Jesus.

In matter of fact, the worship/spirituality of Orthodoxy was want really led me to convert to Orthodoxy. Is the worship/spirituality of the Bible and the Ancient Fathers.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 4/26/11




"The ex Member, looking at the array of religious statues posed the question to Maria: if someone from a totally different world walked in here who would they believe these people worship? Mary, Peter, who? All of them?" (Warwick)

Well, if the individual stay long enough to hear the Divine Liturgy, he or she will know who we worship.

On this note, if I walked into a house filled with pictures (icons) of loved ones hanging on the walls, on tables, statues of cute dogs/cats, etc, am I correct to assumed that the owner [s] of the house worshiped those pictures/statues as their gods?

"Many of us prefer the unadorned truth."

Many of us prefer the whole Truth found in Orthodoxy.

In IC.XC.,
---IGnatius on 4/26/11


Ignatius and Cluny, I did a little research and found allusions to Judges, 1 Chronicles, Nahum, Zephaniah, and Lamentations, in the NT. More research would expose others.

Further I found cross-references to some of the books you mentioned, within the OT. For example one source says Psalm 137:7, Isaiah 21:11,12, 34:1-7, 63: 1-16, are cross references to Obadiah. Akin to the NT where Peter writes of Pauls writings. I am sure there are many other cross-references.

However Christianity is a walk of faith and I am confident God is able, and has given us His word. When I attend protestant churches I see people attempting to follow His word. Not glorying in the empty religious traditions I have experienced in other churches.
---Warwick on 4/25/11


Further, Cluny and Ignatius, in so much of orthodoxy faith in the risen Christ seems almost secondary to, and hidden by forms of worship, icons, incense, gongs, and bongs. Repetitious meaningless ritual, rather than unadorned living faith. Somewhere in there is Christian faith.

In 2009 I stood in such a church with an ex member of that religion, Bruno, accompanied by a relative brought up in that religion, Maria. The ex Member, looking at the array of religious statues posed the question to Maria: if someone from a totally different world walked in here who would they believe these people worship? Mary, Peter, who? All of them?

Many of us prefer the unadorned truth.
---Warwick on 4/25/11


Jesus condemned "traditions of men", not Holy Tradition (as He even followed Tradition's doctrine of the Festival of Dedication, now called Hanakah, in John 10:22 and Moses Seat in Matthew 23:1-3). But what were these traditions? Extra Biblical? Nay. They involved extraneous interpretations and faulty applications of the OT, which were never the original teachings and practices of the Prophets in their Holy Tradition (Jesus and the Apostles gave the true interpretations of the OT). They were new interpretations and practices of the OT.

Some NT doctrines came from extra biblical Jewish Tradition: Life after death, Abraham's Bosom, Moses's Seat, the names of the magicians in Exodus 7:11,22, etc.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 4/24/11


Mark V:

I am talking about those traditions which was kept in the Church by the Holy Apostles, and pass along by their successors, the Early God-Bearing Fathers, and expressed chiefly in the first Seven Holy Ecumenical Synods. Orthodoxy have kept all of them.

"Even Jesus rebuke the traditions man"

Of course, but He also upheld several traditions not found in the OT, but were part of the Oral Torah. He and His Apostles made a distinction between Holy Tradition found in Scriptures, Oral Torah, and those which the Apostles spoke about and those that were traditions of men.

Even Saint Jude quoted two non-canonical books which a ancient Jewish tradition resided.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 4/24/11




Ignatius,

That is the very thing I am saying. Jesus and the Apostles used scripture to refute what the scribes and Pharisees tradition taught. In the same way Martin Luther, though he still retained some church traditions, said what he did for the same reason, to refute the traditions of the Catholic Church and the control they had over the people. If you believe those in scripture who were prophets of God, Jesus, his apostles, Moses and all of those who were truly of God, are what we build our faith on (which I believe you do), that was the intention of Sola Scriptura, to build our faith on Gods word, not the traditions of men.
---willa5568 on 4/24/11


Warwick, please tell me where anyone in the NT quotes from either Obadiah or Esther. ---Cluny on 4/22/11

Warwick,
I challenge you to provide direct quotation from any NT author to the following books: Judges, 1 Chronicles, Nahum, Zephaniah, Obadiah, Esther, Ruth, Ezra, Nehemiah, Ecclesiastes, Lamentations, and the Song of Songs.
---Ignatius on 4/22/11

Duck season. You'll never long enough to get an answer.
You broke seminary debate rules fellows: He who asks the question controls. Cemetary rule 2: Few sheep ask for confirming witness scriptures.
Job 42:3
Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not, things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.
---Trav on 4/25/11


" is that not what the Apostles and Jesus himself use as there foundation?
---willa5568 on 4/23/11

No. As I had pointed before in these blogs, both Jesus Christ and His Apostles used extra biblical traditions, and only oppose those traditions (i.e., the legalistic traditions of the Pharisees, etc) that can not be supported neither in the Written Scriptures or the Oral Traditions passed along by the Holy Prophets, but was corrupted by the Pharisees, etc.

For example, St. Paul mentions Janncs and Jambres as having " withstood Moses," (2 Timothy 3:8-9) according to the Exodus account. However, that teaching is not based on the Scriptures, but rather was a long accepted Jewish Oral Tradition.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 4/23/11


alan8566_of_uk: "Some lack of logicality there!"

It is you who lack "logicality". You surely have worldly knowledge, but lack spiritual knowledge. God knows the beginning and the end. He knew of the bible and all of its interpretations that are published during the end times. Which bible is published most, but used less?
---Steveng on 4/23/11


Cluny

Christos Anesti!

Christ is Risen!

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 4/23/11


Igantius, you keep saying Holy Traditions, but what you really mean the traditions of your church. The Holy Traditions are those imposed by God and are found in Scripture. They are Holy because they are the Word of God. The traditions of the man in your church are not Holy. When we say "Sola Scriptura" it means that by the Word of God alone. That the Word of God is final Authority. You say, the traditions of man are also final authority, but they originate from sinful man. In which all you have to do is read history to know how sinful these man were. Even Jesus rebuke the traditions man impose on others.
---Mark_V. on 4/24/11


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Come on, Cluny, ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

What part of "ALL" do you not understand?
---Steveng on 4/22/11

Who here have denied this, Steveng? Not I nor Cluny.

In IC.XC.,
---IGNatius on 4/22/11


Sola Scriptura was first said by Martin Luther. He was refuting many of the Catholic teaching that are not biblical. All it means is scripture alone is what we base our doctrine on. How can you call this a doctrine of men, is that not what the Apostles and Jesus himself use as there foundation?
---willa5568 on 4/23/11


Steveng But how do you determine which writings qualify as scripture?

I wonder why, when certain books are said to be unscriptural because they were not quoted by Jesus, others are said to be scriptural even though they were never quoted by Jesus.

Some lack of logicality there!
---alan8566_of_uk on 4/23/11


2Tim3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

- Scripture is inspired of God, man's writings are not.

- With the word of God, a man is throughly furnished (doesn't need anything else) he has what he needs.
---trey on 4/23/11


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Mark V,

I oppose the principle of Sola Scriptura because, like you said, the teaching can not be found in the Bible, but rest on traditions of men.

The Biblical authors themselves did not follow this principle, but rather use extra biblical sources/traditions that were the word of God, and taught that Holy Tradition has a written and oral form. They only oppose traditions that can not be found in either form.

If you attack me for not believing your tradition, then you also attack the very authors of the Bible who were inspired by the Holy Spirit to write.

You keep sidestepping the issue. Sola Scriptura can not be found in the Bible, and it is extra biblical doctrine/principle of men. End of Story.

In IC.XC.,
---IGnatius on 4/22/11


Warwick,

I challenge you to provide direct quotation from any NT author to the following books: Judges, 1 Chronicles, Nahum, Zephaniah, Obadiah, Esther, Ruth, Ezra, Nehemiah, Ecclesiastes, Lamentations, and the Song of Songs.

"I think your logic is faulty."

How? All I said was that that a lack of quotation to a any specific book does not mean the author (authors) consider it uninspired. On the other token, a direct quotation to any writing does not necessary mean that the author (or authors) consider the work (or works) canonical or divinely inspired, unless otherwise noted.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 4/22/11


Cluny: "Warwick, please tell me where anyone in the NT quotes from either Obadiah or Esther. Give the appropriate scriptural references."

Come on, Cluny, ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

What part of "ALL" do you not understand?
---Steveng on 4/22/11


Warwick, please tell me where anyone in the NT quotes from either Obadiah or Esther.

Give the appropriate scriptural references.
---Cluny on 4/22/11


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Ignatius, I think your logic is faulty. That Jesus and the apostles quoted from or alluded to all the OT books is clear evidence that they considered these books inspired.

Jude alone quoted from the apocryphal book of Enoch to warn false teachers not to stray from the true faith.

Jesus and the apostles quoted from or alluded to just the first 11 chapters of Genesis 107 times! And from every other OT book. This is overwhelming proof they all considered these books to be an integral part of Gods inspired revelation.

In comparison Judes quotes from Enoch are underwhelming evidence.

This is not to say Enoch's writings have no value, but that the are not part of God's word.
---Warwick on 4/22/11


willa5568-

This is debatable, as one can certainty see many allusions to these books in the New Testament. In any case, Jesus Christ and his Apostles did not quote or alluded to several Old Testament books (that you now consider canonical, such as the Songs of Solomon), and Saint Jude quoted from two non-canonical books.

On this note, the absence of a quote in the New Testament does not suggest that a book is not inspired.

Your rejection of these books based on non-quotations is silly.

I challenge you to provide direct quotation from any NT author to the following books: Judges, 1 Chronicles, Nahum, Zephaniah, Obadiah, Esther, Ruth, Ezra, Nehemiah, Ecclesiastes, Lamentations, and the Song of Songs.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 4/22/11


\\The reason they are not consider Gods word is as I said, neither Jesus, John the Baptist, the Pharisees or the Apostles use anything said these books, which as, I said existed during there time.\\

But they WERE considered God's Word and translated as part of it two centuries BEFORE the time of Christ.

They were not rejected by the Jews until SIXTY YEARS after the Church was started.

Following your criteria, since Obadiah (for example) was not quoted by Jesus, the Apostles, or John the Baptist, it should not be in the Bible, either.

You can have a Bible with a great big hole in it, if you like. I'll take the WHOLE Bible.
---Cluny on 4/22/11


Cluny,

I said they existed and if the orthodox read or not it is irrelevant. The reason they are not consider Gods word is as I said, neither Jesus, John the Baptist, the Pharisees or the Apostles use anything said these books, which as, I said existed during there time.
---willa5568 on 4/22/11


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\\Cluny, did I say your church was molesting children? I said the visible church is not infallible, none of them are. They are guided by man who are sinful.\\

But the denominational churches were NOT founded by Christ. So of course they teach error.

And if you believe your visible church teaches error, why do you go to it?

According to Jesus, the Church that teaches 100% truth is out there SOMEWHERE, and can be found.

To deny this is to say that the gates of hell prevailed against the Church after all.
---Cluny on 4/22/11


Cluny, did I say your church was molesting children? I said the visible church is not infallible, none of them are. They are guided by man who are sinful. To say they are without error is not scriptural. For all come short of the glory of God for all sin. And as long as sin is in the world they will continue to sin. Only God is infallible. The visible church will always for short, because it consist of human beings who sin. And not all of them are saved to begin with. Most of the early church fathers who converted were philosophers bringing in their ideas into the Church. Just because they converted to the Roman Catholic Church did not make them saved. The reason the credit goes to God for bringing us the Bible.
---Mark_V. on 4/22/11


\\I am speaking of the first and second book of Esdras, Tobit, Judith, The rest of the chapters of Esther, the wisdom of Solomon,Ecclesiasticus of Jesus son of Sirach, Baruch, A letter of Jeremiah, the prayer of Azariah and the song of the three, Daniel and Susanna, Daniel, Bek, and the Snake,the prayer of Manasseh, the first and second book of Maccabees.
---willa5568 on 4/21/1\\

They existed, willa.

There are also a Maccabees 3 and 4.

FWIW, the Prayer of Manasseh is read at Great Compline in the Orthodox Church.
---Cluny on 4/22/11


Cluny: "But the Orthodox Church IS true and infallible in what she teaches."

Would you still hae faith if your orthodox church did not exist? Your church, like all the other denominational churches, is nothing more than rituals, traditions, teaches a certain way of living, and have their own interpretations of the bible all within a worldly building costing what? How much money does your worldly church spend on salaries and maintenance of these buildings? How much more can be accomplished if you got rid of all the worldly goods and used the money for God's purpose? And, by the way, your church is also controlled by the government.
---Steveng on 4/22/11


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\\"The visible church is not infallible," if it was they wouldn't have murdered millions, are molested children, or worship idols, they would not bring their false traditions and teach they came from God\\

Please tell me HOW many millions the Orthodox Church has murdered.....

HOW many children she has molested (as if this doesn't happen among Protestants)

WHAT are the False Traditions of Orthodoxy?

Nobody said that individuals are infallible, or even impeccable (words of different meanings).

But the Orthodox Church IS true and infallible in what she teaches.
---Cluny on 4/21/11


Igantius, you said:

"Agree, and he use His Church to deliver His heavenly mysteries. The two are inseparable. The Church is infallible because the Holy Sprint guides her."

"The visible church is not infallible," if it was they wouldn't have murdered millions, are molested children, or worship idols, they would not bring their false traditions and teach they came from God. For many in the visible church do not believe in the Truth. Man, is not infallible, so no visible church is infallible. Only the Spiritual church of Christ believes in the Truth. They are spiritually baptized into one body.
You oppose the principle Sola Scritura because it exposes the false traditions not found in Scripture.
---Mark_V. on 4/21/11


alan8566_of_uk: "Steveng ... You ignored the fact that each diffrent house group will form its own individual and differening beliefs ..."

Then tell me, alan, who does preach/teach the truth? It is man who complicates christianity. Just reading many of the posts on christian blogs attest to that fact. One must apply the simple instructions Jesus preached and by having a small group of people be accountable to one another so they don't stray from the path toward the kingdom of God builds a strong foundation. Living the life of a christian is a 24/7 lifestyle. And, especially during these end times, we need to strongly support one another. What better way than a small intimate group?
---Steveng on 4/21/11


Ignatius,

I am speaking of the first and second book of Esdras, Tobit, Judith, The rest of the chapters of Esther, the wisdom of Solomon,Ecclesiasticus of Jesus son of Sirach, Baruch, A letter of Jeremiah, the prayer of Azariah and the song of the three, Daniel and Susanna, Daniel, Bek, and the Snake,the prayer of Manasseh, the first and second book of Maccabees.
---willa5568 on 4/21/11


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will5568-

Saint Paul told Saint Timothy: "And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also." (2 Timothy 2:2).

"[...]these books which did exist at that time."

It is quite clear that you know nothing about what you speak.

Which "books" are you talking about? Name them and tell us who/when they were written.

The Deutercanonical books were written prior to Christ' birth and was included in the Greek Translations of the Old Testament (LXX) which were translated between the 3rd and 2nd century BCE in Alexandria.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 4/21/11


"The Holy Spirit guiding them to the Truth". (Mark V)

Agreed. He used the Ancient Fathers to tell the Christians which books were Scriptures and which were not, and He used them to crush satanic heresies.

"It is not a doctrine found in the Bible, it is a principle use to interpret Scripture. "

If the doctrine/principle can not be found in the Bible, then why do you believe it? Do you not realize that even the Biblical authors themselves did not follow this "principle"?

"God alone is infallible"

Agree, and he use His Church to deliver His heavenly mysteries. The two are inseparable. The Church is infallible because the Holy Sprint guides her.

In IC.XC.,
---IGnatius on 4/21/11


\\You give the credit to man for giving us the Bible. Completely ignore that nothing could come to us without the Spirit.\\

Is it your contention that the Bible dropped down out of heaven already written?
---Cluny on 4/21/11


I am very aware of the early church fathers believes, but they are not the first century followers of Christ. You will find no where that Jesus or any of his disciples quote anything from these books which did exist at that time.
---willa5568 on 4/21/11


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Igantius, here is where you are wrong. You give the credit to man for giving us the Bible. Completely ignore that nothing could come to us without the Spirit. And I understand why, it is because you want to give credit to the man in your church for the Word of God. This way, Scripture is true and also the traditions of those man what they say is truth. But Such a God cannot be found out by the searching of man, He can be known only as He is revealed to the heart by the Holy Spirit and through the Word.
---Mark_V. on 4/21/11


wlla5568-

The Early Church Fathers/Ancient Church documents, and the canons of local church councils (i.e., Council of Rome, Council of Carthage, etc), etc, either quoted or mention one or more of the extra books found in the Greek Translation of the OT (the LXX) as Scriptures. The Seventh Ecumenical Council (canon 6) quoted from Sirach as Scripture.

This can be verified by many Church Historians/Scholars/Theologians (such as J.N.D Kelly, Philip Schaff, Thomas C. Oden, etc).

Furthermore, for easy access, Anglican Priest David W. Bercot in his "A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs" referenced at least 300 quotations from the Fathers to these books as Scriptures.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 4/21/11


Steveng ... You ignored the fact that each diffrent house group will form its own individual and differening beliefs ... like the denominations you despise and condemn.

And I suppose, when someone joins that group, and can't afford their own Bible, or when you contribute to a shared meal, or costs of travel, you will treat that as income of the group, and pay tax on it? If you don't you will be treating yuorr group as a non-profit organisation, but not doing it legally.
---alan8566_of_uk on 4/21/11


Igantius, you said:

". You have to relied on extra biblical sources to tell you which books should be in the Bible."

What extra biblical sources are needed? There is only one source, The Holy Spirit guiding them to the Truth. If they received the Truth, it is only because of the Spirit.

Then you said: "Why do you believe in a doctrine that can not be found in the Bible (that go against your dogma)?"

It is not a doctrine found in the Bible, it is a principle use to interpret Scripture. Because only God's word can interpret God's Word. None of the authorities in the church are deemed absolute, because all of them are capable of error. God alone is infallible,
---Mark_V. on 4/21/11


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alan8566_of_uk: "Now your "small group of christians studying the bible at a home"... and lo and behold, you will have your own non-denominational church, or cult as you call it."

Yes, it will be a cult, but a cult led by Jesus and not by man. If one learns from only the bible (without the need for concordances, christian reference books and novels) and does not stray from its teachings like most, if not all, denominational churches, then is it a denomination? A denomination is recognized by a government and performs only to government rules (a non-profit organization must obey the rules of government to stay a non-profit). Read Colossians 2:8-10. Also learn about the great delusion.
---Steveng on 4/20/11


Ignatius,

there is no evidence the first generation believed them to be the Word of God. And if they were do you not think somewhere they would quote from them?
---willa5568 on 4/20/11


"the church does not make the Word of God....The church also cannot give a book more authority or dependability than it has of itself. " (Mark V)

I agree. When I have say otherwise? On this note, God used the Ancient Fathers to instruct Christians on which books should be included in the Bible, and which should not. You have to relied on extra biblical sources to tell you which books should be in the Bible.

The better question is: Why do you believe in a doctrine that can not be found in the Bible (that go against your dogma)? Sola Scriptura is a extra biblical, and anti-biblical tradition. In Fact, the Biblical authors went against your dogma many times, and appealed to extra biblical traditions.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 4/20/11


".....the practice of sola Scriptura [is] not found in Scripture" (Mark V)

Thank-you Mark! You finally admitted that your precious doctrine can not be found in word of God and rest on traditions of men!

If the basic principle of Sola Scriptura (at least the version in these blogs) can not be found in the Bible (i.e., of not believing any doctrine/practice that can not be verified in the Scriptures) then that is enough to discredit the doctrine itself.

It's just nonsensical. You can't believe in Sola Scriptura if the Bible itself does not teach such a doctrine (especially when the Biblical authors did not follow that principle).

Sola Scriptura can't not even verified itself in Scriptures.

In IC.XC.,
---IGnatius on 4/20/11


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Igantius, you make it sound as if the Eastern Orthodox gave us the Bible.
Your wrong, God gave us the Bible, because the church does not make the Word of God, but is made by the Word. The church also cannot give a book more authority or dependability than it has of itself.
Then you say,
"When someone say to me that if something can't be found in Scriptures, then it is false, I simply point out their fallacy logic."
Of course you would say that because your church has introduced traditions of man not found in Scripture as if they were the Word of God. And use the excuse of the practice of sola Scriptura not found in Scripture, so that your traditions cannot be refuted.
---Mark_V. on 4/20/11


"the question is not are they useful but do they agree with the Old Testament and teachings of Christ and the Apostles
---willa5566

And the first generation of Christians thought of them as as the word of God, and when the Ancient Church canonized the NT, they also considered them to be Scriptures. In fact, the Ancient African Jews accepted them as Scriptures (and still do).

The Majority of Christians do not have a 66 book Bible. Having a 66 book "Bible" is a extra biblical tradition of Protestantism. Nothing more.

Do you reject them? Fine, but that itself is a extra biblical man-made tradition. See? All Protestants (and Rob too) accept traditions that can not be found in the Bible.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 4/20/11


Steveng ... "All denominational churches, even your non-denominational, each having their own traditions, rituals, ways of living, and interpretations of the bible are nothing more than cults"

Now your "small group of christians studying the bible at a home" will produce it's own individual interpretations of Biblical truths ... and lo and behold, you will have your own non-denominational church, or cult as you call it.
---alan8566_of_uk on 4/20/11


Ignatius,

The Apocrypha was in most if not all Bibles I know of until the late or mid 1800's. The question is not are they useful but do they agree with the Old Testament and teachings of Christ and the Apostles, if not then they are not to be considered GODS WORD. The other so called "books" (the gospel of Peter etc.) are without a question Gnostic, I have read most of them, so there is a good reason they are not included.
---willa5568 on 4/20/11


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(Rob)

1) The Ancient Church decided which books (of the hundreds floating around) were God-inspired, which were not, and which were worthy to be read (by the guidance of the Holy Spirit). Or do you think the Bible fell from the sky all intact?
Check any non-orthodox church historical book.
2) When someone say to me that if something can't be found in Scriptures, then it is false, I simply point out their fallacy logic. Sola Scriptura can't be found in the Bible. Yet you believe it. Proves my point.

3) It's "liturgies" (worship services) and "Catechumen" (one who is being instructed in the Christian Faith), and I don't see your point.

Sola Scriptura is your man-made tradition.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 4/19/11


Ignatius, many times I have pointed out the man made and PAGAN TRADITIONS of the Orthodox Church.

I "CHALLENGE YOU" to show where I follow man made traditions and not what is written in Scripture.
---Rob on 4/19/11


Ignatius, many times you have written we received the Bible from some Orthodox Council of Men.

Yet at the same time you call the Bible Sola Scriptura, which you don't follow,

Whenever someone shares scripture with you, you tell them you don't have to play their game of follow their rules.

A perfect example of this is when I asked you about the practice of cathemen and ligurgies which the Orthodox Church practices.
---Rob on 4/19/11


"Also do not listen to Ignatius. Stay far away from Orthodox Churches. They do not teach the Bible, but man made doctrine..
---Rob on 4/19/11

Actually, we teach the WHOLE Bible, and in fact, we have the WHOLE Bible, not the limited edition found in Protestantism.

Of course, Rob is just upset that Orthodox Christians do not follow in his ways of thinking, and interpretation of Scriptures. Rob has demonstrated in the past that He does indeed follow many man-made traditions.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 4/19/11


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If good churches are so hard to find, why not start your own "church." I'm not talking about denominational/government churches but just having a small group of christians studying the bible at a home, singing hymms, and praying on a daily basis as commanded in the bible. As we approach the end, christians in the West will need to go underground as those in muslim and communist countries. You think it can't happen in the United States?
---Steveng on 4/19/11


Rob, your right, it's hard to find a good church this days, but it is possible. It took me four months going to many churches before I found one that teaches Scripture verse per verse. And not afraid to speak on any topic. The best way to learn is to go at it by yourself or with someone who also has the same interest. I belong to a bible study group who goes verse per verse. Many times people miss a lot when they go right through. We discuss, each verse, why, to whom the passage is talking to, or whether the passage applies for us today or those in the past. Just take the verse in John 1:9-13. If you go through it fast, you miss that the ones who received Christ were already born of God. Something so important when you answer other passages.
---Mark_V. on 4/19/11


Donna, I will be honest in saying I attended thar church for so many years, because like so many people I had been dupped.

It is also true and very sad it is hard to find a true Bible Church.

Also do not listen to Ignatius. Stay far away from Orthodox Churches. They do not teach the Bible, but man made doctrine..
---Rob on 4/19/11


"The latter is very rare. I'd like to attend one like that myself.
---Donna66 on 4/18/11"

Cluny and I are in one. It's called the Orthodox Church. You should visit one in your area.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 4/18/11


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Rob-- Why did you stay 22 years if that denomination wasn't teaching what you wanted?
Do you want a church to teach the particular scriptures you mentioned... or one that goes through the Bible book by book, chapter by chapter, and verse by verse?

The first is easy. The latter is very rare. I'd like to attend one like that myself.
---Donna66 on 4/18/11


Donna, I was a member of a church denomination for 22 years. Only once did they ever mention what is written what is written in 2 Timothy 2:15, along with saying we were to only study what we were told to study. They never taught the other scriptures I presented.

When I moved to the city where I currently live, and I was searching for a church home, it took over 3 years to find a Church which goes through the Bible book by book, chapter by chapter, and verse by verse.
---Rob on 4/18/11


Read Luke 21:8 and 2Timothy 4:3-4. Remember the people asked Jesus to show them a sign, is that not what many who call themselves Christians seek. All of these scriptures speak of knowing the truth so you can recognize what is false. The truth of Christs teaching are not pleasant or easy to accept, it takes us out of what we find comfortable. I encourage you my friend to do as Paul says in 2Timothy 4:2. We cannot change what people hear but we can let them hear it.
---willa5568 on 4/18/11


All denominational churches, even your non-denominational, each having their own traditions, rituals, ways of living, and interpretations of the bible are nothing more than cults. Christians are instructed in the bible to go out into the world and make disciples. D. churches, on the other hand, shackle their congregation to the pews. This is where people are taught feeling good stories and are thus are bonded to the church for life. If the church trained up disciples, the church wouldn't have their hundreds of millions of dollars to support the buildings and pastors. This is where the great delusion of the end times come in where people call themselves christians, but are not.
---Steveng on 4/17/11


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Rob, I couldn't agree with you more, but you left out some, Rom-Philemon.

A big reason is, most think what God is doing today can be found in the OT. including the four gospels.
When today He is dealing with the body of Christ as the Apostle Paul teaches.
---michael_e on 4/17/11


I have realized all of my life that is, not just POSSIBLE, but EASY for anyone and everyone to OPPOSE anything I say or write...using excuses, explanations, and intellectual rhetoric...while deliberately avoiding the real answer.

If you went to Sudan or a country where slavery is legal, would YOU (as a modern civilized person), have a SLAVE (if not, then what I said about 2000 year old culture is true).

The bottom line is that we are talking about YOUR modern GODLY devotion to truth and peace (holiness WITHOUT SLAVES)...right here, now, on this planet earth, in this reality.
---more_excellent_way on 4/17/11


The scriptures inform us of EVENTS that are important for ALL OF HUMANITY (scripture was not given to any certain GROUP, but to ALL HUMANITY) and were ALL DONE BY JESUS (self-effort is mockery).

God informs us of these events in THE GOSPEL (the first four books of the N.T. identify the savior and tell us that Jesus and the Spirit are ONE/integral, NOT SEPARATE John 7:39).

It is not only because of our VAIN pride (excessive pride) that we have not received 'pure teaching', but also because of the deceit/confusion from the god of confusion.

Mankind still seeks to honor God using MAMMON (money and human effort). That method is not just a mistake on the part of the worshipper, it is a deception caused by SATAN'S MONEYCHANGERS.
---more_excellent_way on 4/16/11


Rob -- I wasn't aware that many churches "refuse" to teach these passages.Have you asked them, and had them say they wouldn't? It sounds as if there are some specific truths here that you want to be taught more often.
I've heard several sermons from one or more of these references.
What point do you want teachers/preachers to make?
---Donna66 on 4/16/11


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more_excellent_way:
"Everything that believers think is right FOR TODAY (all BEHAVIOR and ATTITUDES) is based on what was said to UNCIVILIZED PAGAN cultures 2000 years ago."

The attitudes and behavior of men and women are the same today as they were in the beginning. As mankind aged so has the tools he built. Everthing man has built today came from the accumulation of past knowledge and experience. Ninty percent of all scholars and scientists from all of earth's history were born within the last 100 years thereby proving an end time prophesy. But man's attitudes and behavior have never changed. We all love and hate, laugh and cry, give and take, etc. and etc.
---Steveng on 4/16/11


\\Everything that believers think is right FOR TODAY (all BEHAVIOR and ATTITUDES) is based on what was said to UNCIVILIZED PAGAN cultures 2000 years ago.\\

People, even the pagans, were hardly uncivilized 2000 years ago.

Any culture that can produce such art, architecture, and literature (not only the Bible), as the Roman empire did is NOT uncivilized.
---Cluny on 4/16/11


The answer to "why aren't we more interested in what God is doing and saying now?"

....is simply that WE WERE TAUGHT NOT TO CARE.

.....that is the sad truth.

SCRIPTURE (the words "bible" and "Christianity" are not in scripture, neither was Paul a "Christian", Acts 11:26) contains many conversations/statements that happened 2000 years ago and were spoken to OTHER PEOPLE/societies/cultures that had the habit of keeping indentured servants (slaves) and IDOLS (for the harvest crops, etc.).

Everything that believers think is right FOR TODAY (all BEHAVIOR and ATTITUDES) is based on what was said to UNCIVILIZED PAGAN cultures 2000 years ago.
---more_excellent_way on 4/16/11


If we all read our bibles we would not have need of questions like this. The bible is fulfilling itself. These things will have to happen.We are living in the last days and we will see many things that are not of God.People are accepting all manner of things these days.God's Word will stand and never pass away. We do need to know God's Word and the truth for ourselves.
---Robyn on 4/16/11


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\\I think the better question is why aren't we more interested in what God is doing and saying now...\\

The best way to make sure what God is doing and saying now is to compare such claims with what we know He said and did in the past.

If it conflicts, then these are false reports.
---Cluny on 4/16/11


What exactly are you getting at, Rob? Can you elaborate?

Jesus Himself did not "preach scripture".
---Cluny on 4/16/11


I love questions like this your essentially saying why don't they teach it the way i think they should.

I say it doesn't matter, all I've ever heard from pulpits is rehash on what the Spirit has instructed anyway, people learn best by experience, it's a fact.

I think the better question is why aren't we more interested in what God is doing and saying now...why is Christianity become a stroll through a museum?
---blah_blah on 4/16/11


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