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Imputed Righteousness Christ

What does having the imputed righteousness of Christ entail?

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 ---mima on 4/25/11
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David NO ONE is saved by saying "the sinners prayer".
It is repentance and faith that saves them. And these are not "works".
---Donna66 on 5/8/11


David---Call it Grace, call it Mercy, call it Love...call it whatever you want. It comes from God even BEFORE we have done anything worthy. Fortunate for us, Jesus didn't "label" it, or we could nit pick the whole idea to death. He showed it in the way He dealt with the woman taken in adultery, the man born blind and many others.

Samuel is right. Without God working in us and through us, we could not perform the works that please Him.
Phl 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
---Donna66 on 5/8/11


Works are not necessary (or possible) for salvation. But they are important. They are the evidence (though not the source) of our salvation. We may be guided by God in our works, or work mightily in our own strength.
1Cr 3:13-15 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire, and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.
---Donna66 on 5/8/11


Works are the result of GOD in us. They do not save us.
---Samuel on 5/8/11

Samuel
I have never said we are saved by our works.
People who disagree with me, keep making this charge, without any evidence.
Strangely, those of you who accuse me with this teaching, are the very teachers who teach it.

Proof?
There are those that teach that one is saved when they say the Sinner's Prayer.
If they are saved, didn't they save themselves, by what they did?
---David on 5/8/11


The Father showed grace but the son admitted unto righteousness with, " And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!"(Luke 15:17).
and:
"I will arise and go to my father", "Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son."

For Christ said: Luke 14:11 "For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased, and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted."
A man must do his part without imputation, period.

Matthew 4:17 "From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
---Nana on 5/8/11




No one in the New Testament teaches faith by works. I see all teach faith that works.

Luk 17:10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

Works are the result of GOD in us. They do not save us. They are simply our love responce to GOD.
---Samuel on 5/8/11


Jesus taught MUCH about Grace.---Donna66

Donna
I agree... partially.
But if Jesus was a teacher of Grace, wouldn't you think he would have used the word?

Jesus taught that we needed to be in the favor of God, to be in Gods Grace.
You believe Grace is the unmerited favor of God, when Grace, is God with us.
Grace is a word that is very easy to misunderstand, this word has flummoxed many Bible translators, thereby flummoxing the Bible reader.

Jesus confirms what I say in, (John 14:21-23).
Notice that God is not with you before you keep the Lords commands in vs.23, but after you keep them.
If we are able to overcome Satan, it is because God is with us.
If God is with us, who can stand against us?
---David on 5/8/11


David-- Jesus taught MUCH about Grace. What was the parable of the prodigal son, if not a picture of Grace? Even while the son was blowing his inheritance, his father was watching and waiting for him to return home. Upon his return, the wayward son was willing to be as one of his father's hired servants. But instead, the father put a ring on his finger and announced a feast. He could have forgiven his son on the condition that... But he didn't. Just like OUR Father.

Do you have an alternate interpretation?
---Donna66 on 5/7/11


David: "...why do 70-85% of people, who say the sinner's prayer, turn their backs on God and the church?"
I'm curious, where did you get this information?
---christina on 5/6/11

Christina
I got this information from a Southern Baptist preacher.
He claimed to have gotten the information from a survey done by a Barna survey some 5-8 yrs ago.
---David on 5/7/11


It is Christ that taught the GRACE concept which is very difficult for Your understanding.
---mima on 5/6/11

Mima
By your answer, I can see that you researched my claim.
You saw that all the examples the New Testament teachers use in the New Testament, are examples of Faith by works, proving me to be correct.
But instead of saying that, or thanking me for showing you this fact, you once again choose to insult me.

Now you make the claim that Jesus taught Grace.
Can you show us one single verse in the Gospels of Christ, where Jesus taught Grace?
If you can't, I hope this time, you call your faith into question, and not my intelligence.

Mima,
This is not a contest.
---David on 5/7/11




David: "...why do 70-85% of people, who say the sinner's prayer, turn their backs on God and the church?"
I'm curious, where did you get this information?
---christina on 5/6/11


---David the greatest teacher of the New Testament is the Lord Jesus Christ. It is Christ that taught the GRACE concept which is very difficult for Your understanding.
JESUS CAME NOT TO CONDEMN THE WORLD
"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through him might be saved." John 3:17

Those who believe in works believe Jesus came to condemn the world. Else why would works be kept track of and counted toward their salvation?
Meditate on this verse," And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work." Romans 11:6
---mima on 5/6/11


The old 'switcharoo' trick (also called Two Faced, Stone Faced and Talking Out of Both Sides of the Mouth):
switch sides to the opponents point of view and pretend they were there all along?

The next thing, they act surprised and ask, "I do not know what they are fighting about?"
---Nana on 5/6/11


We are saved by Grace alone. But grace is never alone. The New Testament over and over again calls humans to holiness and commandment keeping. Read first John.

JESUS let us know what following him resulted in.

Mar 8:34 And when he had called the people [unto him] with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

We are saved then we take up our cross and follow. Read Matthew 13 works are just doing what we are suppoed to be doing.
---Samuel on 5/6/11


David--the reasons so many who say the sinners prayer later turn away from God and the church, are:
1. They are not taught what Christ's sacrifice for them really means
2. They are not discipled, not taught scripture, not nourished as new Christians,
not taught how to devlop their relationship with the Lord.

It's not enough to count them as harvest, if all they ever do is walk the aisle and say the "sinners prayer"

They are like the sower's seed of Luk 8:13 that fell on rocky soil. They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy, and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
---Donna66 on 5/6/11


What a ridiculous scenario!!---mima on 5/5/11
Ridiculous?(lol)
If you hold what I say, against many protestant beliefs, it is as you say, "Ridiculous", but if you compare it to New Testament examples, it's the Truth.

Mima, Prove me wrong.
Give one example of faith, that was given by a New Testament teacher, that was not an example of Faith by works, as James taught.
If you can not do this, you must re-examine your faith.

YES. At least we will WANT to please HIM, because we have passed from darkness into light. ---Donna66 on 5/5/11
Donna
If what you believe is true, why do 70-85% of people, who say the sinner's prayer, turn their backs on God and the church?
Does this please God?
---David on 5/6/11


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Nana, you took a passage out of context in Luke 12: 41-48 to argue the point against believers when the parable is talking about both, believers (v 42,43) and unbeliever (45-48). It compares the unbeliever and the believers conduct. The unbeliever begins to beat the male and female servants, and even gets drunk. The master appoints him his portion with the unbelievers (v 46). Verse (47 is about those who knew to do well and didn't, while (v.48) is the unbeliever who is ignorant. There is degrees of punishment taught in ( Matt. 10:15, 11:22,24, Mark 6:11, and Heb. 10:29).
---Mark_V. on 5/6/11


Nana 2: Again in the passage of John 4:36 you again did not read the context. This passages are talking about Christ witnessing to the disciples about evangelizing. And uses the events of the Harvest. Jesus used the fact that they were surrounded by crops growing in the field and waiting to be harvested as an object lesson to illustrate His urgency about reaching the lost which the "harvest symbolized' Jesus points out the Samaritan woman and people of Sychar ( lift up your eyes) who were at that moment coming upon the scene (v. 30) looking like a ripened "harvest" that urgently need to be "gathered" evangelized.
---Mark_V. on 5/6/11


Nana: Do we make a doctrine of devils which say that it does not matter what and if we do anything for the kingdom of God?
of course it matters what we do, however our works do not save us. if saved, we have the love of God in our hearts and will want to obey and do good works, but not of ourself either, but led by the Spirit. The glory then belongs to the Lord.
also, there are rewards in heaven for what we do...
---Christina on 5/6/11


John 4:36 "And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together."

A short life left had the thief on the cross. He basically came into the master's vineyard at almost day's end (Matthew 20:1-16). Do we make a doctrine of devils which say that it does not matter what and if we do anything for the kingdom of God? We who have been given a long life, a lot will be the more required of us:

Luke 12:48 "But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."
---Nana on 5/5/11


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Amen Donna! Great post.
---christina on 5/5/11


mima-- Amen. The Gospel is "good news"! Our human tendency is to "pay" for everything we receive. The idea of eternal life being a "gift", ALREADY FULLY paid for, is unacceptibe to some. To them it's like some expensive gift our parents gave us for Christmas, with the caveat, "you'd better take good care of that or I'll take it away".

NOTHING we can do will make us worthy of Christs sacrifice! No good works will merit His love toward us. He didn't die with the expectation that sinful men would some day deserve what He has done. He knew we wouldn't... and couldn't... but because of Divine love, He gave His all...without reservation.
Our spontaneous response should be praise and obedience.
---Donna66 on 5/5/11


GRACE is too good to be true for many people.
You've been to the grocery store and you had to pay did you not?
Now we come to God's free grace, how can it be, I just can't believe it, I'm going to help God, I'm going to pay and by doing so I will establish my own righteousness before God. ---What a ridiculous scenario!!---
---mima on 5/5/11


David--//we are not saved by living in obedience to God, but if we do not live in obedience to God, we will not be saved.//
Sorry, this statement seems internally contradictory.

Generally,
works are EVIDENCE of faith. But faith can exist without evidence. Hbr 11:6.. "without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him" and... and.. does works to prove it! Wait! those last few words are not there. This sounds like FAITH is what pleases God.. not necessarily the works that follow.
The thief on the cross is the classic example (as is every death bed covert) of being saved without having "works".
---Donna66 on 5/5/11


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David, you whole arguments lack Jesus Christ, and the Spirit. Everything you say is concerning man. As if he wasn't endwelled by the Spirit. As if he is along trying to work as hard as he can on his own. That is how you look at believers in Christ, and the reason you go on about works. How hard does he have to work? Is there a limit to his works? What is acceptable before God? Who has ever enter heaven by his works? Answer, no one. No amount of man's own works will save him.
---Mark_V. on 5/5/11


1Timothy 1:13 "Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief."
1 Peter 1:14 "As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:"

Matthew 9:35-36 "And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people. But when he saw the multitudes, he was moved with compassion on them, because they fainted, and were scattered abroad, as sheep having no shepherd."

WANTED:
TEACHERS-PREACHERS-HEALERS
The Lord is taking applications,
(Apply within!)
---Nana on 5/4/11


David-- Your question was,//So you are saying that if we do as Paul wrote in (Romans 10:9) we are Saved, and then after we are saved, we will do as God commands us to do because we love him//

YES. At least we will WANT to please HIM, because we have passed from darkness into light. 1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. We have become a "new creature" 2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away, behold, all things are become new.. This doesn't make us perfect, but the HS now convicts us of sin. We no longer live without concern for God's will.
---Donna66 on 5/5/11


Donna
I use Noah as an example, of one who was saved by Faith.
Most church teachings have no biblical examples.

I was trying to get you to see that Noah would not have been saved, if he had not built the Ark.
In doing so, you would have seen Noah worked out his own Salvation.

He did not save himself by building the Ark, but if he had not, he would not have been saved,
as we are not saved by living in obedience to God, but if we do not live in obedience to God, we will not be saved.

Also, Since Noah would not have been saved if he had not built the ark, his Faith was shown as Faith with works in (Hebrews 11:7).
Can you show me an example of anyone that was saved by faith without works?
---David on 5/5/11


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David-- What do you mean "no reason for Noah to build the ark"? How could I believe that when the Bible tells us the purpose of the ark? AND It wasn't ALL about Noah!
Gen6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.... EVEN BEFORE the ark.
Gen 6:18-19 But with thee will I establish my covenant, and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee. And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee, they shall be male and female.
The future of life on earth was at stake.
---Donna66 on 5/4/11


Francis, you said,

"Can God, or will God save anyone who does not wish to be saved?"

No one who is lost, at enmity against God, wants to be saved. Not a one.
When Scripture tells us,
"God has told (US) who have faith what to do.
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.In addition"


Only those who have faith already will respond with the heart already change. All others will not make the commitment, they have no faith, and no change heart.
---Mark_V. on 5/4/11


David --- You are certainly preoccupied with Noah! I don't know whether God "saved" Noah before the flood or after, but He did choose him as "ark-builder" for a reason. We don't know what that reason might have been. Maybe it was because he knew Noah had faith and would follow through... only God could say. But I'm sure Noah was NOT picked at random.
---Donna66 on 5/4/11


david-- God told Noah what to do. And Noah did as God told him.
God has told US what to do.
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
---Donna66 on 5/3/11

Donna
So you are saying that if we do as Paul wrote in (Romans 10:9) we are Saved, and then after we are saved, we will do as God commands us to do because we love him?

I have heard this answer before, but when you believe as you do, one can only conclude that you must also believe that God saved Noah before he built the ark, and that there was no reason for Noah to build the Ark.

Am I correct that this is what you believe?
---David on 5/4/11


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(2) I must add this addendum for the sake of those many who claim that Christians will try to take advantage if they truly have "liberty" in Christ. If we have been redeemed by Christ, we will want to .
Mar 12:30-31... love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength : .... Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself There is none other commandment greater than these

However, being obedient to these will not give us eternal life. We strive to follow these commands (imperfect as we may be in the flesh) out of love for the savior who gave His all for us!
---Donna66 on 5/3/11


(1)david-- God told Noah what to do. And Noah did as God told him.
God has told US what to do.
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.In addition, Rom 4:5-8 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
---Donna66 on 5/3/11


But if we have to "be on His good side" when He decides, doesn't that mean it is up to US whether we are saved? (instead of Him)
---Donna66 on 5/2/11

Can God, or will God save anyone who does not wish to be saved?
---francis on 5/3/11


But if we have to "be on His good side" when He decides, doesn't that mean it is up to US whether we are saved? (instead of Him)
---Donna66 on 5/2/11

Donna
The New Testament teachers, used many Old Testament examples of people who had a relationship with God.

These example reveal the Truth, because God never changes, therefore these examples are very relevant when teaching the New Covenant of Jesus Christ.(Matthew 13:52)
One of many of these examples is of Noah.

If Noah only believed God was going to save him, but he did not build the Ark, do you think God would have saved Noah?
If you will, Please answer Yes or No, with commentary as to explain how you came to your conclusion.
---David on 5/3/11


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Christina, joseph does write some very good answers. To this day, I have not disagreed with him once. I love the answers he puts out. Though you have been on line for a short time you also have great answers, so keep up the good work for the Lord.
---Mark_V. on 5/3/11


amen to this! :"What does having the imputed righteousness of Christ entail?"
"Being fully convinced that what He [has] promised He [is] also able to perform." Rom 4:21
Being "found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith," Phl 3:9
Which is the Gospel of Christ, "the power of God to salvation" and "in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith, as it is written, "The just shall live by faith." Rom 1: 16,17
"For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." 2Cr 5:21
---josef on 4/26/11
---christina on 5/2/11


Acts 3:26 "Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities."

That righteousness is not imputed but attained by service and allegiance:

Romans 6:19-21 "I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity, even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death."

It is that simple.
---Nana on 5/2/11


Mima, your passages on righteousness were very good, many want to earn their own righteousness or even believe they have the righteousness of God while lost. Romans 10:3,4 are good passages. What I believe is that many here who already believe in Christ do not know where they stand yet. First, they think they can earn their way into heaven with their own free will, then they feel since they earned it, it's possible to lose it by their works, so they argue for works of the Law. They want to earn their own righteousness by telling everyone about the Law. We already know what the Law was about. They don't realize we are in Christ, and have His righteousness, not because of our works, but because of His Works. And go to heaven because of His works.
---Mark_V. on 5/2/11


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David-- Your assumption is that God hasn't decided yet... that we are all sort of on "probation" until some day in the future when God will weigh us the balances to see if we are "wanting". At least, that how it sounds to me.

But if we have to "be on His good side" when He decides, doesn't that mean it is up to US whether we are saved? (instead of Him)
Didn't Christ's sacrificial death tip the scales in our favor? Or what was the purpose of the Cross? Did it buy forgiveness only until the day a person accepts Jesus as Savior?

OR could we be, perhaps, confusing justification with sanctification?
---Donna66 on 5/2/11


---Jasheradan on 5/1/11
Very good post and good point.

I would also add for those who are opposed to your post, that God choosen jacob did not prevent Esau from being saved, and god choosen israeldid not prevent any nation for being saved. Most of us are not choosen to be pastors or leaders and yet that doe snot prevent any of us from being saved.
God plan is for disciples to make disciples. He calls people to his service to call others, and those that come are free to call even more people.

Lets not forget other chosen people who were not of israel:
Melchizedek king of Salem
Jethro the priest of Midian: Nebuchadnezzar,
---francis on 5/2/11


Samuel, don't you think that you made some kind of mistake when you said that the church is one with Israel? ... And only those who receive Jesus Christ are saved. The Bible is clear. God will fulfill His Old Testament promises to those "in Isaac," that is, to any human being who follows Abraham's example and who becomes part of His Isreal in the Spirit through faith in the Messiah. Thus the issue is not race, bloodline, genealogy, or ethnicity, but personal faith-a faith available to all, see (Rom. 10:12).MarkV.

You are correct to a point.Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel: Romans 11 We are all part of Spiritual Israel.
---Samuel on 5/2/11


//He showed favoritism chosing Israel over other nations.//---Mark_V-4/30/11. GOD does not do favouritism or partiality. If any heart seeks HIM, that heart will find HIM Jer.29:13, Jn.6:37. (1) A CEO finds a heart is always disposed to the progress of the company, he/she promotes that person (2) A teacher finds a pupil highly disposed to learning & obeying instructions, he/she makes the person a prefect, that is no favouritism. God was not partial to Abraham but find him good for HIS purpose above all others.
---Adetunji on 5/2/11


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Jesheradan/K, your arguing a point that's useless to argue. You need to not only read the Old. T. and New T. You need guideness by the Holy Spirit. Because only a completely blind person would argue the point.
God chose Jacob over Isaau. And lets look at the life of a child. One is born to health, honor, wealth, of good and wise parents who train him up for infancy in the nurture and admonition of the Lord, and who afford him every opportunity of being taught the truth as it is in Scripture. Another is born to disease, shame, poverty, of dissipated and depraved parents who reject and ridicule and despise Christianity. In His mysterious providence God has placed persons under widely different influences, and the results are widely different.
---Mark_V. on 5/2/11


//He showed favoritism chosing Israel over other nations.// MarkV

You need to go back and read the old covenants and see how God INCLUDED men outside of Israel to participate in the feasts and covenants IF and only IF they circumsized themselves and became a part of Israel.

Gentiles weren't Gods chosen but they were accepted IF and only IF they followed Gods guidelines to become a part of his chosen people.

It is the same now with Christ. He is Gods chosen. He is Gods ELECT! If we follow Gods guidelines
to become his elect IN Christ.

Circumcision used to be done to the flesh... now it is done to the heart.
---Jasheradan on 5/1/11


Donna
I am not implying that we save ourselves, by our works.
It is Our obedience which cause us to be in the Gods favor.
It's Gods decision who will be saved and who will perish, and it would be a big help if you were in his favor, when he makes that decision.

The way you and many others believe, God doesn't make the decision who will be saved, does he?

---David on 5/1/11


David---God wants us to be righteous. It's a sign we are "working out" our own salvation. But even Abraham was justified by faith

Tts 3:5-8 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
---Donna66 on 4/30/11


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Jesheradan/K, I do not judge whether you are saved or not. That is not for me to know. I do disagree with much of what you say. You said,

"God is not partial in his judgements. He is does not show favoritism"

He showed favoritism chosing Israel over other nations. He shows favoritism to His children. The Spirit spoke to the disciples where to take the gospel, while others were deprave of it. The nation of Israel received all many of the gifts of God, while other nations did not. I would say that He showed a lot of favoritism. How about when Herod ordered the children to be killed, the Angel only warned Joseph and Mary and not any other, all the other children were slaughtered. I could go on and on.
---Mark_V. on 4/30/11


MarkV, I know the LORD. His Son is living within my heart. Things that am I unsure of I read his word to verify that I am not being deceived by another spirit. But there are things that in the 27 years as a child of God I KNOW to be true. God is not partial in his judgements. He is does not show favoritism. He does not WANT us to sin, but he allows it. He most certainly doesnt gloat over the fact that some men will suffer the fires of hell and he tell us also NOT to do the same. If the Holy Spirit isnt grieved at the beliefs you have about God because of some very poorly misinterpreted scripture then maybe instead of assuming other dont know Christ , you should consider the possibility that you don't have him within you.
---jasheradan on 4/29/11


Matthew 10:24-25 "The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord. It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?"
Acts 10:35 "But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."

Where do you get "Some feel" from? If it is witten and clearly, it is about knowledge, not 'feel'
Now, so you would not say I went off to another well, Phil 3:16-19. How do you walk?
Your "good works" at least should be better than the laundry list in Gal 5:19-21.
---Nana on 4/29/11


Some feel that righteousness is imputed only as Christians obey the commands of Christ. That would make it a reward.
---Donna66 on 4/28/11

(Ezekiel 14:20)
Though Noah, Daniel, and Job were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter, they shall but deliver, their own souls by their righteousness.


Donna
Just a reminder, "God never changes."
Noah is also used as an example for us in the New Covenant.
Why would God use an example of one who obtained his own righteousness, through his obedience to God?







---David on 4/29/11


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Jesheradan/K, God made this plan. And if God is not able to do what He wants in the affairs of heaven or on those who are in the earth then He is not God. He does as He desires.
But men would strip Deity of His Omniscience if they could which proves that "the carnal mind is enmity against God" Rom. 8:7. The wicked do as naturally hate this Divine perfection as much as they naturally compelled to acknowledge it. They wish there might be no Witness of their sins, no searcher of their hearts, or no Judge of their deeds. They want to banish such a God from their thoughts. God's knowledge of the future is as complete as His knowledge of the past and the present, and that, because the future depends entirely upon Himself.
---Mark_V. on 4/29/11


All who practice law and/or baptism, sacraments or other requirements for righteousness before God are guilty of the following verse Romans 10:3-4,"3-For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4-For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Receive The Lord Jesus Christ and you will have God's righteousness.
---mima on 4/29/11


Jesheradan/K, I claim I believe in the Word of God. If you knew God's nature, character and attributes you would know that,

"He doeth according to His will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay His hand" Dan 4:35.
But you say, man can do whatever he wants and if you don't like God's design, you will change it because you don't like it. But God says,
"There are many devices in a man's heart, Nevertheless the counsel of the Lord, that will stand" Prov. 19:21. And you say that is not true at all because you don't like it that way. So I say, you are in denial of the God of Scripture. He makes out of the same clay, a vessel for honor and a vessel for dishonor.
---Mark_V. on 4/29/11


Phl 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Christ's righteousness is credited to us through FAITH. We are accepted by God as if we were fully as righteous as Christ himself.

Some feel that righteousness is imputed only as Christians obey the commands of Christ. But that would seem to make it a reward for our OWN righteousness. I believe righteousness is imputed to us by FAITH because our own good works can never, at their best, equal the perfection that God demands.
---Donna66 on 4/28/11


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Mark, if God says in scripture "I DO NOT DO THIS!" and you say God does this very thing.... you are speaking EVIL of him and using his name in vain!

God says I DO NOT TEMPT MAN. I HAVE NO PLEASURE IN DEATH. I DO NOT LIE. And yet the core of your entire doctrine is based on denying these three declarations of God. Not only do you claim he planned for us to fall into sin, but that he takes pleasure in leaving most people in it so he can punish them and then lies in his holy scriptures by offering salvation anyone who believes the gospel... knowing full well that he wont ALLOW everyone to believe it!

You are either completely blind or a master manipulator and to be honest, I'm not sure which one yet.
---Jasheradan on 4/28/11


John 4:23-24 "But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."

The word is "seeketh such", not 'makes such' as the hyper-calvinist supposes.
---Nana on 4/28/11


Jesheradan/K. the blaspheme comes from your mind. He is not the author of sin. Curse, " And the Lord commanded man, saying,
"Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat, but of the tree of Knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die"


God gave that command knowing full well, since he is Omniscient that Adam would sin. We are told that Christ was
"foreknown indeed (as a sacrifice for sin) before the foundation of the world" 1 Peter 1:20. Paul speaks of "the eternal purpose" which was purposed in Jesus Christ our Lord, Eph. 3:11. The writer of Hebrews refers to "the blood of an eternal covenant" 13:20.
---Mark_V. on 4/28/11


WOW Mark!

Mans curse from God was to work all the days of his life to support himself and his family

Womans curse from God was to have pain in childbearing

Why do you continually blaspheme God by accusing him of being the author of our sinfulness? You are hurting your own soul, brother.
---Jasheradan on 4/27/11


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No David, the reason man became a slave to sin was because of God's curse.
---Mark_V. on 4/27/11

Mark
Supposition?
... Or can you show me a verse to support your claim that God cursed man with an Evil heart?
---David on 4/27/11


The imputed righteousness of Christ entails that when we accept JESUS we become as if we have never sinned. We are Born Again which must be shown by Baptism in obdience to GOD. We now have a new nature and are filled with the HOLY SPIRIT. Since are now buried with JESUS and raised to a new life we are to live for JESUS not ourselves.
---Samuel on 4/27/11


David, you said,

"The sin commited by Adam and Eve, infused the heart of man with evil, and because of this, man became a slave to sin."

No David, the reason man became a slave to sin was because of God's curse. If God had not put the curse and forgiven Adam, no curse would have been put on all his descendants. God could have put angels to guard the Tree, He could have not put the tree there, He could have stopped Adam from sinning, He could have not given the command to begin with, but He did none of them. He allowed or permitted Adam to sin. He did not force him to, but knew he would. God choice for doing something is always righteous, man's choices for doing something is many times unrighteous.
---Mark_V. on 4/27/11


I agree with your husband KarenD,
that is the way Jesus describe it in John 15 and what Paul signifies in Hebrews 10:
"Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith"
"Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering"
"let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works"

1John 2:24 "Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father."

I disagree with those who declare a righteousness without association, your usual OSAS crowd.
---Nana on 4/27/11


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So now we're left with either infused righteousness, or possibly Zero.
---Cluny on 4/26/11

Cluny
Did God create us for sin?
No, we were created for righteousness.
So why do we sin?
The sin commited by Adam and Eve, infused the heart of man with evil, and because of this, man became a slave to sin.

Now since it was a power greater than man (Satan) that infused the Heart of Man with Evil, it will take a Power,(John 1:12 KJV) greater than Satan, to remove this evil.
If the righteousness of Jesus Christ was imputed, there would be no need for this power, to "Become" the Sons of God.
---David on 4/27/11


Bill willa, that was a great answer you gave. "For all have sinned and falls short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" This is for all believers who come to Christ. The legal or forensic term comes from the Gr. word for "righteous" and means "to declare righteous." This verdict includes: Pardon from the guilt and penalty of sin, and the imputation of Christ righteousness to the believers account which provides for the positive righteousness man needs to be accepted by God. God declares a sinner righteous solely on the basis of the merits of Christ sacrificial death ( Isa. 53:45, 1 Peter 2:24).
---Mark_V. on 4/26/11


\\Cluny
If that is what Luther taught, Luther was wrong.
It is sin in sinful man that makes us that dung heap, and the Bible says that Jesus came to take away sin.(Romans 11:27)
If the sin is taken away, there is no more dung heap.\\

So now we're left with either infused righteousness, or possibly Zero.

Do I understand you right?

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 4/26/11


It's a package deal. First, God joins us spiritually to Him, imputing His righteousness to us, but still we are not perfectly how He is righteous. So, now that each of us "is one spirit with Him" (in 1 Corinthians 6:17), He starts to change us to become like Him, in this union. Hebrews 12:11 shows that God's correction of His children "yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it." And if we are not being corrected like this, "you are illegitimate and not sons." (Hebrews 12:8) Because our Father succeeds in correcting us, "as He is, so are we in this world." (in 1 John 4:17)
---Bill_willa6989 on 4/26/11


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The Law required perfection. It requires that we obey completely. None of us have, but christ having obeyed the law perfectly, gives to us his perfect record of obedience, that we may have a RIGHT STANDING before the father, however, Imputed righteous is only given to those with IMPARTED righteous

Romans 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
---francis on 4/25/11


While growing up, "life" figuratively 'kicked my butt'.

I will no longer allow myself to be convenient for anyone (I am now NOBODY'S DOORMAT). Nobody likes that, so I am regarded as NASTY.

I don't know about Luther's personality, but it probably was similar to SAUL the chief Pharisee who steadfastly guarded the purity of devotion.

Cluny said it well...God does not want hypocrites. If life has given you reason to be nasty (constant unjust torment, etc.), lay all your "nastiness" before The Lord, and IF/IF an attitude adjustment is necessary, He will inform you.

All the righteousness of God that was performed by Jesus is transferred/imputed to us.
---more_excellent_way on 4/25/11


"What does having the imputed righteousness of Christ entail?"
"Being fully convinced that what He [has] promised He [is] also able to perform." Rom 4:21
Being "found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith," Phl 3:9
Which is the Gospel of Christ, "the power of God to salvation" and "in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith, as it is written, "The just shall live by faith." Rom 1: 16,17
"For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." 2Cr 5:21
---josef on 4/26/11


Not according to Luther.
His rather nasty image was as pile of dung covered with snow.
Note that the dung still remains dung, according to him. ---Cluny on 4/25/11

Cluny
If that is what Luther taught, Luther was wrong.
It is sin in sinful man that makes us that dung heap, and the Bible says that Jesus came to take away sin.(Romans 11:27)
If the sin is taken away, there is no more dung heap.
---David on 4/26/11


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Short version: humility

It entails being joined with Christ spiritually 1 corinthians 6:17, For God to do that he has to make it so you've never sinned in his sight, your penalty has to be paid as you come to Christ in faith.

It's his work that all tongues would be silent before him. Better to learn that now. It's not about what you did, will do, but more that you admire and worship his Son and learn him.

The madness works perfectly, you can't know Christ backward and forward without knowing he was perfect, let all give praise to the one and only name under heaven by which men are saved.
---pharisee on 4/25/11


\\Cluny. Imputed righteousness means that our sinfulness has been dealt with in its entirety by the blood of Jesus Christ.\\

Not according to Luther.

His rather nasty image was as pile of dung covered with snow.

Note that the dung still remains dung, according to him.

Christ is risen.
---Cluny on 4/25/11


My husband says "It is abiding in Christ and Christ abiding in you and purifying you from all sin because of living in HIS righteousness."
---KarenD on 4/25/11


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