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Gospel To The Elect

What is the difference between the Gospel to the Elect and the Gospel preached to the Lost. William Booth, Founder of the Salvation Army was asked to leave a Reformed Church (the Elect) for preaching to the Lost. Why?

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Mark,

I believe that is a different subject. But absolutely those who are of the seed of Abraham by faith are saved. My point though is that the elect spoken of is not the church, they are Israel. I do not think you can change what I have presented to you to mean anything else if you read it in it's entirety.
---willa5568 on 5/16/11


Sorry, there's no Amos 3:21. The elect of God are from Israel, and from the Church, (John 17:1-26) ( Romans 8:28-39) ( Eph. 1:4-6). "Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world," that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will" to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved"
This describes both a purpose and a result of God's choosing those who are to be saved. Unrighteous persons are declared righteous, unworthty sinners are declared worthy of salvation, all because they are chosen "in Him" Christ.
---Mark_V. on 5/16/11


steveng,

I'm quite sure Mark knows that. He is only pointing out that the seed Paul is speaking of is Christ, which in this case is singular.

I don't think it to be good calling him worldly because he may disagree with you. He seems to be one who desires to know the truth as I do and hopefully you as well. Lets present our understanding with one another with the mind set to be challenged and not try and win a debate or call out people in a disrespectful way.
---willa5568 on 5/15/11


The CHURCH is not a remnant. When scrpture speaks of the remnant, it always refers to Israel, the Nation also known as MY PEOPLE.

More false doctrines think THEY are the remnant of Israel or a replacement for Israel...

One robs her of her election and special place with the Father, THEY ARE Romans 11...BELOVED OF THE FATHER)the others rob her laws and apply to themselves.

Just a few:
Mormons
Calvinists
SDA's
Jehovah Witness...and all dominionists.




Amos 3:21Hear this word that the LORD hath spoken against you, O children of Israel, against the whole family which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying,
You only have I known of all the families of the earth: ....
---kathr4453 on 5/16/11


Willa, read Rom. 9 again with the context. Paul was saying "For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren (Jews, because he was a Jew ), My countrymen according to the flesh" According to the flesh, the Jews were his countrymen, to whom the Covenant was given the promises, but he mentions in (v.6) "But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel" Why? Because only those who are of the Spiritual Seed, are saved, those from the flesh are not. (v.8) says,
"That is, those who are the children of the flesh, this are not the children of God" Did you hear that?
---Mark_V. on 5/16/11




Mark V., you try your hardest to try to understand scripture using YOUR worldly knolwedge. The word "seed" can be singular and plural. For example, "he racked the seed into the ground." Do an online KJV bible search for "seed" Here are some verses:

Genesis 1:11
Genesis 13:15
Genesis 13:16
Genesis 15:5
Genesis 17:8
Genesis 46:6-7
Numbers 14:24
Numbers 18:19
Deuteronomy 11:9
Deuteronomy 28:38
1 Kings 2:33
1 Kings 18:32
1 Chronicles 16:13
Nehemiah 9:2
Esther 6:13
Job 5:25
Romans 4:16
2 Corinthians 11:22


These "seed" does not only indicate Jesus.
---Steveng on 5/15/11


Mark,


Romans 9:4 They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption... and the promises.5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ ... 6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel...11:1 I say then, Did God cast off HIS PEOPLE (Israel)? 11:2 God has not rejected his people ... For I also am an ISRAELITE, of the seed of Abraham...9:27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved...9:25 As indeed he says in Hosea, Those who WERE NOT my people I will call my people, and her who was not beloved I will call beloved.
---willa5568 on 5/15/11


Willa, You said,

"but God said He had a remnant as Paul said their was even to that day"

God has always had a remnant. Even today, He has one. But their believers who are saved by grace through faith. There will be no wicked entering heaven. They have rejected Christ. Only the Spiritual Israel of God will be saved. Both are the Church of Christ. The remnant from Israel and the remnant from the Gentiles. Have become One through Christ. The Israel of the flesh is not of God. "Now to Abraham and his "SEED" were the promises made." He does not say, "and to "seeds," as of many, but as of One. and to your "SEED" who is Christ" (Gal. 3:16).
---Mark_V. on 5/15/11


Trav,
My point is the ten tribes you speak of are not lost.

Acts 26:7 "...unto which promise our 12 TRIBES serving God day and night, hope to come"
---willa5568 on 5/14/11

They were at the time....and the one of 99 not found still are.
They were lost because of the "putting away". Christ did not fail his search mission nor did his Apostles.

These gentiles-nations/ethnos you speak of are these lost sheep.....Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved:...

25 .... that blindness in part is happened to Israel(Judah), until the fulness of the (nations)(ten put away) be come in.
---Trav on 5/15/11


Trav,

I do not deny there was a split between the tribe of Judah and Benjamin from the other 10. My point is the ten tribes you speak of are not lost. That is why I gave the scripture I did, specifically John 4:22 " ye worship ye know not what, we know what we worship for salvation is of the Jews". Jesus here considers himself a Jew although he is from the tribe of Judah. In the New Testament all 12 tribes are in need of salvation and are present.
Acts 26:7 "...unto which promise our 12 TRIBES serving God day and night, hope to come"
---willa5568 on 5/14/11




pleaded...against Israel"


but God said He had a remnant as Paul said their was even to that day

"if their fall, is the riches of the world, and their loss the riches of the Gentiles, how much more their fullness?"

"a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in,and so all Israel shall be saved: even as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob"

"but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers` sake. For the gifts and the calling of God are not repented of."

The "end times" is for this reason, that those left of Israel during this time will be saved.
---willa5568 on 5/14/11


Willa, thanks for your answer. When Paul said, "all Israel will be saved"( In Rom. 11:26) He didn't mean that at some point every Jewish person would find salvation, for in the same chapter he wrote, "If" by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh (Jewish) and save some of them" (v.14) and Paul also said, "And they (individual) Jewish people also, "If" they do not coninue in unbelief, will be grafted in " (v.23) There's that tiny word "If" again.
As we read in (Roman 9:6) "They are not all Israel who are of Israel" Why? There is an Israel after the flesh (1 Cor. 10:18) an and Israel of God, (Gal. 6:16).
---Mark_V. on 5/14/11


Again, only a remnant of Israel will survive God's wrath, solely because of His mercy.
---Mark_V. on 5/13/11


wELL, THAT'S ONLY PART truth. And they OVERCAME by the blood of the Lamb. They did not take the mark of the beast. Read the WHOLE thing.

Leviticus 16:14
And he shall take of the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it with his finger upon the mercy seat eastward, and before the mercy seat shall he sprinkle of the blood with his finger seven times.


You can't separate mercy from blood. God's Mercy is SOLELY in Christ's Blood.
---kathr4453 on 5/14/11


Trav,
Paul makes no distinction between the 10 tribes or Judah, he says Jews.

Matthew 15:24 "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of Israel"

There are far more to refute this teaching.
---willa5568 on 5/13/11

You'll never gather enough to refute OT prophets.
The whole story of the split is given in the Old Testament....and outlined in the New and seen today. Jesus came to his own "Judah" they would have him not. Foreknowledge of this is in the statement in Matt 15:24. The Lost Sheep were the Nth Kingdom. Judah was not lost. Paul was disobedient to Christ own directives?
Go against the prophets if you prefer. It's popular, there is plenty of company. It was always so.
---Trav on 5/14/11


Mark,

you are correct. But that will happen at the time when God deals solely with Israel, after the fullness of the Gentiles and all of Israel will be saved (Romans 11:25-27). Also the first Christians consisted of Jews only, no mention of Gentiles until Peters vision. The truth is only a remnant of mankind will be saved. I hope you will read Romans 11 because that is what the Lord says through Paul concerning the future of Israel. In chapter 9 you have to read the whole of it, and really chapters 9 to 12 to understand what is spoken about. The point of it is the Jews sought a righteousness by keeping the law and rejected Gods righteousness which comes through faith in the Messiah, Jesus.
---willa5568 on 5/13/11


Isaiah cries out to Israel,

"Though the number of the childern of Israel be as the sand of the sea, The remnant will be saved" For He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness, because the Lord will make a short work upon the earth' And as Isaiah said before,
"Unless the Lord of Sabaoth (Host) has left us "a Seed," we would have become like Sodom, and we would have been made like Gomorrah" Isa. 1:9. Again, only a remnant of Israel will survive God's wrath, solely because of His mercy.
---Mark_V. on 5/13/11


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Trav,

Paul makes no distinction between the 10 tribes or Judah, he says Jews. All are under sin Jews and Gentiles.

Acts 5:21 "...all the senate of the children of ISRAEL..."

Acts 26:7 "...unto which promise our 12 TRIBES serving God day and night, hope to come"

Matthew 15:24 "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of Israel"

John 4:22 " ye worship ye know not what, we know what we worship for salvation is of the Jews"

There are far more to refute this teaching.

research it for yourself from both angles to see which is right.
---willa5568 on 5/13/11


Who did Jesus say he came to preach to, the Jews. How are Gentiles saved?
---willa5568 on 5/13/11

What have you done with the rest of Israel....the 10 besides Judah? The Lost Sheep? Judah was not lost.
Same as Mark. He has lost them.
He assumes, Judah equals all Twelve of the Patriarchs family.

How is anyone else included? By attachment.
Isa 56:5
Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.
---Trav on 5/13/11


Mark,

I don't think you understand what I am saying. Paul tells us many times it was a secret that the Gentiles would also be saved through the Messiah. Who was the promise given to, the Jews. Who did Jesus say he came to preach to, the Jews. How are Gentiles saved? through faith in the promise given to the Jews. The promise was given to Israel. And though all did not believe, they were the ones commissioned to proclaim it. So we Gentiles have been included into the promise given to God's people, Israel.
---willa5568 on 5/13/11


Willa, again I say, we are not grafted "into natural Israel" At least not me... Natural Israel has rejected the Lord Jesus Christ.
... this mysterious wedding ceremony.
---Mark_V. on 5/13/11

It will always be mysterious to MrkV.
If he won't listen to Moses...and the prophets who will instruct/advise him?

His Christ failed in his mission. He didn't find the "Lost Sheep of the House of Israel". Matt 15:24.

Our Christ didn't fail. Lost Sheep were the Northern House who make up the bulk of Israel are found easily..by christ. The grafting. who readily accept a OT prophet.
Amos 9:9 Amos 9:9
For, lo, I will command, I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is ...
---Trav on 5/13/11


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Mark,

I agree we all who accept the gospel, Jew and Gentile alike, are the Israel of God. But my point is Israel are the ones Paul speaks about Romans 11 as the natural olive tree. We Gentiles though are not those who were the elect, but rather have by faith been grafted into the natural olive tree contrary to nature as we are a wild olive tree. Paul explains it much better than I do. Again, what I am saying is not what I think but what Paul writes in Romans 11 very plainly.

Also, to say "I" am wrong could be said to you also. But I would rather explain my position and listen to yours and then determine who is wrong.
---willa5568 on 5/13/11


Romans 11 saying the unbeliveing were broken off so that the believing could be grafted in. This points that the believing are Spiritual Israel while the unbelieving are physical Israel.

After all did not paul say not all Isarel is Israel?
---Samuel on 5/13/11


I balance what the prophets say by reading Scripture, God's word and no true prophet speaks of himself but what God wants them to say. Many of Israel's prophecies have been fulfilled already by Jesus and one day all things will be fulfill by Christ Jesus. God say's, there is only One Way, Christ Jesus. One Way, no matter who it is, Judah, devorced, married, 12 tribes, or just one tribe. There is no other way but through Christ.
---Mark_V. on 5/13/11


If you asked ten different christians from ten different denominations to interprete one verse, you will get ten different interpretations.
---Steveng on 5/12/11

There is no way to get different interpretations when the witnesses are present.
The Bereans went to the prophets to see if they had been fulfilled. They did not need chapter and number to understand Moses,David,Jeremiah,Isaiah and all the other prophets testimonys.
The Berean test is seldom used by modern churianity. The trusting, public think that a necktie and cemetary degree are creditials. The prophets negate them all.
---Trav on 5/13/11


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Willa, again I say, we are not grafted "into natural Israel" At least not me and many others. Natural Israel has rejected the Lord Jesus Christ. Why would we be grafted into a lost nation? Sorry, but you are wrong. We are grafted into "the Spiritual Israel who is Christ"
I'm speaking of Believing Jews and non-Jews, together, are "the people of God" "the elect of God" and "the Israel of God" (1 Peter 2:9,10, Col. 3:11,12, Gal. 6:16). The "two are one" and are "of the same body" (Eph. 2:14-16, 36). Through the Cross, the Messiah Himself has performed this mysterious wedding ceremony. What God has joined together, let no man separate.
---Mark_V. on 5/13/11


No matter how many passages are given from the Old Testament.
Not a one makes it into the Kingdom of Heaven without saving faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
---Mark_V. on 5/13/11

True. And a good point.
Matthew 24
4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you

1 Peter 3:15
But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

You could give your Old Testament to someone who will use it to verify with witnesses what is being said in the New.
---Trav on 5/13/11


Mark,

read Romans Chp.11. It explains what I am saying. We are grafted into the natural(Israel) though we are a wild olive branch. And yes the elect can and does often refer to the church but not in the same sense as Israel.
---willa5568 on 5/12/11


All the talke about whether Judah, or the devorced, or whether 12 tribes are just one tribe, every single individual has to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ by faith in His works on the cross and His resurrection, otherwise they continue just like the others did in the past going right to hell. All believers become one. One spiritual body where Christ is the Head of that body. No matter how many passages are given from the Old Testament. Not a one makes it into the Kingdom of Heaven without saving faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
---Mark_V. on 5/13/11


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Steveng--
You must not have understood my question. Of course it's possible to search the scriptures without chaper and verse numbers.

I'm talking about communicating to others ABOUT the Bible. I will repeat my question: How would you tell someone where to find a particular portion of scripture?
Without chaper and verse numbers, how would you tell someone where to find the "sermon on the mount" or signs of the "end times", the miracles ot pentecost or the Jewish dietary laws?
---Donna66 on 5/12/11


Donna66: "How would you tell anyone that the Bibles says a certain thing, if you could not tell them where to find it?"

How did the Bereans search the scriptures since chapter numbers didn't exist until three hundred years later? And verse numbers didn't exist until three hundred years ago?

How did the first christians search scriptures for the first three hundred years?

If you asked ten different christians from ten different denominations to interprete one verse, you will get ten different interpretations. But taken within the context the verse was written tells a completely different interpretation.
---Steveng on 5/12/11


Well my friend Trav. You are way off this time. Let me add this:
2 Corinthians 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Seems to me, that since Paul speaks of the Church being married to ONE husband which is Christ, that your case is void.
---francis on 5/12/11

Well the Bridegroom cometh.

He comes to who he made a 1st and 2nd covenant with...freed by death from 1st. By GOD's marriage law clean to remarry , a virgin. Released from 1st Covenant.
GOD is the Judge. I'm not pleading a court case.
The scriptural witnesses are GOD's not mine.
---Trav on 5/12/11


Trav,
(Rom.11:26),"as it is written". Where is it written, what other Scripture is it referencing?
---Nana on 5/12/11

Isa 59:20, & multiple more:Isa 45:17 But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.
Psalm 53:6 Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! When God bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.
Isa 9:8
The Lord sent a word into Jacob, and it hath lighted upon Israel.
Isa14:1
For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: the strangers shall be joined with them, they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.
---Trav on 5/12/11


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Widowed/released....through death of Christ. Both houses released by death of...

Rom 7:2
---Trav on 5/12/11

Well my friend Trav. You are way off this time. Let me add this:
2 Corinthians 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Seems to me, that since Paul speaks of the Church being married to ONE husband which is Christ, that your case is void. Peter is also speaking of the church (strangers scatters abroad in christ), Since a jew would not refer to another jew as stranger, and since the church is married to christ, it is very clear that peter is adressing Non-hebrews as strangers, and not hebrews
---francis on 5/12/11


Rom 7:2 and Isaiah 45:4---Trav on 5/12/11

cannot apply here
A: Loosed to marry to another..
1 Peter 1:2 sanctification of the Spirit
1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,

So who are they now married to?

B: The church is israel / jacob
Exodus 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation.
1 Peter 2:9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation,

sorry
---francis on 5/12/11


"What few see, some never is...
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:"
---Trav on 5/11/11

Trav,
That verse (Rom. 11:26), it says "as it is written". Where is it written, what other Scripture is it referencing?
---Nana on 5/12/11


Trav ...AHH but here is the thing:
the people who he is speaking to are not divirced, they are in christ. take a look
1 Peter 1:1 to the strangers scattered .. ELECT according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, ....
If these strangers and elect are divorced, then ....
---FRANCIS on 5/12/11

Widowed/released....through death of Christ. Both houses released by death of...

Rom 7:2
For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth, but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

Isaiah 45:4
For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
---Trav on 5/12/11


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---Trav on 5/12/11
AHH but here is the thing:
the people who he is speaking to are not divirced, they are in christ. take a look

1 Peter 1:1 to the strangers scattered .. ELECT according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. Blessed [be] the God and Father of OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1 Peter 1:5 Who are KEPT BY THE POWER OF GOD THROUGH FAITH unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

If these strangers and elect are divorced, then ....
---FRANCIS on 5/12/11


---Trav on
A jew would not call another Jew stranger.
---francis on 5/11/11

Logic seems right but, it's not a Judahite...calling another Judahite stranger. It's a Judahite calling a put-away/divorced member of Israel ...correctly...a stranger. The put away/divorced lose their married covenanted rights.
Another term describing the Nth House is,"far off".

13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were "far off" are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Eze 11:16Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD, Although I have cast them "far off" among the heathen,...
Micah 4:7
I will make her that halted a remnant, "her" that was cast "far off" a strong nation:...
---Trav on 5/12/11


---Trav on
No sorry, the key term here is STRANGER. It lets us know who he addressing. ---francis on 5/11/11

Used to think so myself....research who is scattered. 27 times it's explicit who is scattered in OT.
Typical strangers wouldn't be scattered.

1 Kings 22:17
And he said, I saw all Israel scattered upon the hills, as sheep that have not a shepherd:...
Jeremiah 50:17
Israel is a scattered sheep,..
Ezekiel 34:5
And they were scattered, because there is no shepherd:...
Ezekiel 34:6
My sheep wandered through all the mountains, and upon every high hill: yea, my flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth, and none did search or seek after them.

i will.
---Trav on 5/12/11


---Trav on
No sorry, the key term here is STRANGER. It lets us know who he addressing. A jew would not call another Jew stranger. Stranger is a biblical tern for non-jew
---francis on 5/11/11


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SO it is not just Israel, it is ALL who come to christ
---francis on 5/11/11

Old Covenant prophets are always the "undoctrinal", "unconfused" handpicked witnesses,by the GOD we worship. The safest witness choice for anything stated.
Scattered a key term. Who was scattered?
Psalm 60:1
O God, thou hast cast us off, thou hast scattered us, thou hast been displeased, O turn thyself to us again.
Jer 31:10
Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations,declare it in the isles afar off, say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.
James 1:1
James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
---Trav on 5/11/11


But the elect according to the scripture is Israel. ---willa5568 on 5/10/11

1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 1 Peter 1:2 Elect..

1 Peter 5:13 The [church that is] at Babylon, elected together with [you], saluteth you, and [so doth] Marcus my son.

SO it is not just Israel, it is ALL who come to christ
---francis on 5/11/11


But the elect according to the scripture is Israel. We gentiles were grafted into the people of the promise. God made a promise to Abraham, Issac and Jacob that their descendants would inhabit the land promised to them.
---willa5568 on 5/10/11

What few see, some never is that "Judah" does not eual all Israel.
The grafting is the (Lost Sheep 10)nations of Israel apart from Judah.
For good reason. They are the reason we have Scriptures in our hands. They are the reason that Christianity has circled the Globe.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
---Trav on 5/11/11


Willa, some of the elect do come from Israel, only those who believe by faith. But there is an election of the Church also. Those who believe by faith. It is important to reveal these truths in order to get a better understanding of Scripture. When Jesus prayed for His disciples He said: (v.20-21) of John 17:
"I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word, that they all may be one, as You, Father, are one in Me, and I in You, that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me..." John 17:1-26, Rom. 9:28-39, Eph. 1:4-6.
We are not grafted into the nation of Israel. They have rejected Christ. It is about "faith lineage"
---Mark_V. on 5/11/11


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I never intended to say Google was the source in understanding the bible, but suggested that if people wanted to know what the majority consider the elect, they can find information about predestination (Calvinism) on the internet. But the elect according to the scripture is Israel. We gentiles were grafted into the people of the promise. God made a promise to Abraham, Issac and Jacob that their descendants would inhabit the land promised to them. And Paul said once the fullness of the Gentiles comes, God will deal with His chosen people, Israel.
---willa5568 on 5/10/11


Steveng-- Chapter and verse numbers have a purpose (a purpose Satan would not approve of!)

How would you tell anyone that the Bibles says a certain thing, if you could not tell them where to find it?
(Well, let's see, it says so in the book of Hebrews, not quite half-way through...maybe the third or fourth page depending on which Edition you have, right after Paul finishes his discourse on the "rest" of God..but before he compares Jesus to Melchizedek),

Isn't it easier for everyone to just say Hebrew 4:12?
---Donna66 on 5/10/11


I believe that the verse and chapter numbers are a creation of Satan. It forces the reader to analyze each verse instead of the overall content it is written in.
---Steveng on 5/9/11

Well,meet the most doubting Thomas of them all. i have issues with the men that tampered with the scriptures. You have a point. One thing i've found is that what GOD wants revealed....no man/adversary/satan can hide.

The very thing that they put for a hindrance is a testimony/witness as proof and against them.
If one asks the only Teacher...he does not deny. If one seeks...he finds.
Fastest way to find two witnesses testifying is by these numbers,the witness is still viable.
Which some preachers grind their teeth over.
---Trav on 5/10/11


Donna66, I totally agree with you, and disagree with Steven whom I love. I answer with love.
I disagreed with him on that topic. He says:

"I believe that the verse and chapter numbers are a creation of Satan."

Imagine Satan adding numbers to help the reader? Numbers and chapters are great so we can remember where we saw another passage. Imagine reading a Bible with no chapters or numbers on verses? What He seems to forget is that God equips His elect through history to make sure we receive His Word, not only in many langauges but in a way that can be easier to understand by the Spirit. How about Exodus in between Romans and Acts? If Satan did that, it was because God permitted him to do it. God is in control.
---Mark_V. on 5/10/11


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I believe that the verse and chapter numbers are a creation of Satan. It forces the reader to analyze each verse instead of the overall content it is written in. When you write a letter to a family member or a friend, do you include verse numbers? Why not?
---Steveng on 5/9/11


steveng -- How many children do you know who read the Bible without regard to chaper and verse numbers? Have you heard any child reading scripture lately?
Children accept such divisions as literal stops and starts.

Adults can keep to the context more easily because they have a better sense of punctuation and continuity.
(In fact, those who are better "educated" are more skilled at this.)

However, because it takes concentration to mentally eliminate Chap/verse, many can still be thrown off.
But now many Bibles are written in paragraph form to remedy this very thing, with the verse numbers barely visible as superscripts. The scripture flows more naturally this way and probably is easier to understand.
---Donna66 on 5/9/11


...explain spiritual matter to a person wanting worldly expalination?

Children do not analyze every word they read as christians do using concordances, dictionaries ...
---Steveng on 5/8/11

Children, understand as children....when faced with an adult subjects. Topic concerns a "marriage". A "divorce". And a "remarriage".
Isa 62:4 Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken, neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzibah, thy land Beulah: for the LORD delighteth in thee, thy land shall be married.

5 For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.
---Trav on 5/9/11


Trav: "Out of Context? Don't stop.... explain the context then."

How can a person explain spiritual matter to a person wanting worldly expalination? Christians today read and study the bible using worldly understanding. They read every verse as though it has a meaning instead of reading it without the verse and chapter numbers. Today's christians are over educated when trying to understand the bible. If one would only read the bible through the eyes of a child, then a person can understand the spiritual meaning. Children do not analyze every word they read as christians do using concordances, dictionaries and other christian reference books (which are, by the way, all worldly).
---Steveng on 5/8/11


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Try a few of the verses in the new testament.
As for any verse, don't read just the verses, but the whole chapter because you are taking these verses out of context - a problem with today's christians.
---Steveng on 5/7/11

Out of Context? Don't stop.... explain the context then.
Below, GOD says Israel won't build just so another can inhabit.
Isaiah 65:22
They shall not build, and another inhabit, they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
Romans 9:4
Who are Israelites, to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises,
---Trav on 5/8/11


Trav: "The names of these "Online Prophets" that know GODs heart?" [Trav gave two verses from old testament]

Try a few of the verses in the new testament. As for any verse, don't read just the verses, but the whole chapter because you are taking these verses out of context - a problem with today's christians. For the first three hundred years after the ressurection, the christians search the entire scriptures and the letters and testaments of the apostles and christian elders. Verse numbers were the beginning of the downfall of christians.
---Steveng on 5/7/11


To learn who the elect are, do an online KJV bible search for the word "elect". The elect are already the believers.
---Steveng on 5/6/11

The names of these "Online Prophets" that know GODs heart?

Isaiah 45:4
For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

Isaiah 65:9
I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: mine elect shall inherit it, my servants shall dwell there.
---Trav on 5/7/11


Mark, if you could give up your life in Christ so that 10 others would be saved, would you do it?
---Jasheradan on 5/6/11


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To learn who the elect are, do an online KJV bible search for the word "elect". The elect are already the believers.
---Steveng on 5/6/11


There is no difference between the gospel to the Elect and the Gospel to the lost. When the gospel is preached to the Elect (which are still lost) they will respond with a changed heart, repentance, and faith to believe in the works of Christ on the cross at the time God decides to save them. Once they are saved, they are the Elect saved by grace through faith. All believers are of the Elect. Whether Jews, or Gentiles. All become one body in Christ.

Election is the sovereign right of God to choose who from among His created beings shall be granted a position of special favor. Scripture reveals two major elections. Israel's (Matt.24:1-25, Rom. 9:1-8, 11:1-36) and the Church of Christ (John 17:1-26, Rom. 8:28-39, Eph. 1:4-6).
---Mark_V. on 5/5/11


Trav
Just to let you know, My feet are not "set in stone" on this subject, because it was not taught to me in the Spirit.
But, if you have something that the spirit will confirm in me, to be the Truth, I am all ears.
---David on 5/4/11

Well said.
Myself i can only point. Its up to the individual to, ask, seek the only teacher our Lord.
Will point to a couple of starting places...concordance speeds things up.
Start in Kings where the division took place in Israel. Judah Sth house/ remainder Nth house.
Note Heb8:8/Jer31:31 that notes the division in covenant.
Note: Matt 10:6/15:24.
All the prophets, lay the groundwork. The New Testament verifys.
More later gotta go to work.
---Trav on 5/4/11


"The elect are not Gentiles, they are Jews"
This is what we've been taught above but, is technically not accurate.
---Trav on 5/2/11

Trav
Just to let you know, My feet are not "set in stone" on this subject, because it was not taught to me in the Spirit.
But, if you have something that the spirit will confirm in me, to be the Truth, I am all ears.
---David on 5/4/11


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There is so much mis-information in the world today that it's almost impossible to find the truth.

...everyone has and can post their own interpretation of the bible. Colossians 2:8-10
---Steveng on 5/2/11

It was pointed out to me....late in life (40) that scripture always has two or more scripture/witnesses given by GOD. On almost any topic that I have checked, this is true.
Therefore no man/womans opinion can/should influence one if the scriptural witness is not offered with or found pertaining too.

Many are so trained or trapped in their doctrinal beliefs...that they are willing or feel pressed into going against these witnesses. But, imagine, going against prophets. An apostle. Or Christ himself.
---Trav on 5/3/11


willa5568: "I would suggest you Google..."

It seems most christians are searching the internet instead of searching the bible for the truth. There is so much mis-information in the world today that it's almost impossible to find the truth. Because of the internet, which satan is using to his advantage during these end times, everyone has and can post their own interpretation of the bible. Colossians 2:8-10
---Steveng on 5/2/11


I would suggest you Google predestination to better understand the gospel to the elect.
---willa5568 on 5/2/11

Google offers some interesting theory's by wordy men on the subject. But, Isaiah,Christ had a better source to get answers from.

Perhaps the thing to do would be ask Christ about Google.
Matthew 23
1Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
8But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ, and all ye are brethren.
9And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
10Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
---Trav on 5/2/11


I would suggest you Google predestination to better understand the gospel to the elect. And I believe the Gospel preached to the lost is pretty self explanatory, meaning man can make a decision that God had not already determined before hand.
---willa5568 on 5/2/11


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The elect are not Gentiles, they are Jews.
---David on 4/30/11

This is what we've been taught above but, is technically not accurate.

House of Israel, (scattered) is the prophecy. Judah makes up only a small percentile of Israel 1/13th.
The Lost Sheep of Israel....who was/is not Judah only, was secondary mission. And a sucessful one it was/is.
Isaiah 45:4
For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
Isaiah 65:9
I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: mine elect shall inherit it, my servants shall dwell there.
---Trav on 5/2/11


There is only one gospel, the good news - the coming of the Kingdom of God. Jesus taught it, the apostles taught it, and all the (true) christians from the beginning taught it. They also taught about how to get there and the consequences. It's up to the christians to spread the word to help populate God's kingdom. Christians today are unfortunately stuck in buildings (churches) becoming only hearers of the word and not doers. You would think that with over one billion christians in the world, the entire world would already be saved.
---Steveng on 5/1/11


Blooger ... Please explain!
---alan8566_of_uk on 4/30/11


Booth was trying to change the outcome of a decision that God had made, it is as simple as that. It had nothing to do with the prosperity or social status of individuals.
---Blogger9211 on 4/30/11


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The elect are not Gentiles, they are Jews.
---David on 4/30/11


Jesus preached one gospel. Spurgeon the same.

That 2 gospel round peg is not going to be jammed into the square hole. The fact is the same gospel you preach to the lost can edify the the redeemed.

Many are they that say preaching must be changed to affect the lost, ridiculous. Many try to devise a formula to reach the lost, the first response is a perfect example, but the truth is preaching is a spiritual gift, and if the words come from God supernaturally no one is immune to their effect, and people have even been reported as understanding it when not given in their own language.

There is power, and then the cheap imitation that men devise to manipulate, why people think that's not obvious to even the lost is beyond me.
---Pharisee on 4/27/11


Bill_willa6989-- I guess churches (all kinds) have not changed much.
They suddenly act like the "the elect" if a street person comes in or a disabled adult makes strange sounds.

They do not see it as an opportunity to perhaps introduce Jesus to the lost. One church I belonged to (not Reformed) was across the street from a group home for developmentally disabled adults. When they attended services, ...it bothered people to "look at them"! So I asked if I could to take them downstairs for a service of their own. (I worked professionally with some like them so it was nothing special to me) They didn't want that either.
I was shocked since those that objected were my friends and prayer partners!
---Donna66 on 4/26/11


There is that hymn "All things bright and beautiful .... the Lord God made them all"

You won't find the verse in any version published nowadays, but I remember singing the original, which included this:

The rich man in his castle,
The poor man at his gate,
He made them, high or lowly,
And ordered their estate


It was a cruel time when that hymn was written, and because God was punishing children by making them orphans, they were put in cruel and abusive orphanages to ensure their punishment was complete.
---alan8566_of_uk on 4/26/11


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Cluny--No, it's the Word of Faith folks that claim Christians are always prosperous.

Sometimes, (but not always)the poor ARE that way because they would rather collect welfare than work. I know many people who believe this and NONE are Calvinists!
Socialists would have you believe that people have no control over their plight. That they are poor because of the evil rich.
---Donna66 on 4/26/11


There was a wide-spread idea that if you were poor and in the underclass, it was because it was your own fault.

Calvinists had been clinging to the idea that the elect always were prosperous.

This same false notion appears in the false gospel of Holy Prosperity.
---Cluny on 4/26/11


It looks like he was a reformed pastor, and he left his church in order to reach poor people. And churches did not welcome the poor unwashed people coming into their churches. So, he started a mission for them. So, it looks like the mainstream churches had people who were "elect" but not Christians who loved . . . maybe like certain ones in Corinth who shamed those who had "nothing" (1 Corinthians 11:22), but then those despisers of the poor, Paul says, "are weak and sick among you, and many sleep," "sleep" meaning they died, I think (1 Corinthians 11:20-34). So, being so anti-love can produce medical consequences, because sin's evil spirit (Ephesians 2:2) brings death and destruction and misery.
---Bill_willa6989 on 4/26/11


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