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Destination Of Infants

Are infants and children who do not understand yet about Christ going to hell? Or they going to heaven? What does Scripture have to say about the destination of infants?

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 ---Mark_V. on 4/27/11
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Sorry Mark but your "gospel" isnt good news at all for the majority of the world.

It teaches us that MOST of us are condemned just for being born and God has no desire to rescue us from a condition that were we born into thru no fault of our own. That is hideous. No god who is LOVE would allow us to just sink away into the abyss without at least reaching into the water to pull us out.

You're missing out on the God of scripture. Your god has no compassion and simply does things for his own praise. My God is full of compassion and does things out of love because its who He is! He asks us to love him back, not forces us to love him.
Look at Jesus again in the gospels.
---CraigA on 5/4/11


James L, 2:
6. "behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me" Psalm 51:5. Before God pronounce judgment on Adam and Eve, God-it may have been the Son of God, promised that the seed of the woman should bruise the head of the serpent (Gen. 3:15). Here was the ray of hope in the darkness of human sin and failure. The reference to the seed of the woman is a prophecy of the birth of the Son of God. This is the point of Luke's genealogy (Gal. 4:4). The coming Savior was to be the seed of the woman-human, and yet in the fact that He is not called the seed of man, we have the forshadowing of the virgin birth (Isa. 7:14, Matt. 1:22,23).
---Mark_V. on 5/4/11


Samuel, where did I say I felt judged by what Wesley said?

"On another site now closed you said you felt judged by Wesley on Sabbath. As you pointed out he was speaking on first day and he was not writing to you specifically."

That is a false statement Samuel. Go back and read it. I have not read Wesley's writings so how can I feel judged? What I answered to was what he wrote that you put down, and no where did he mentioned "Saturday" He mentioned Sabbath, and you already know, I already agreed we should do the Sabbath. But you want me to do the day you desire, because you do. That tells me that Saturday becomes a legal day, and so you are under the law.
---Mark_V. on 5/4/11


Pharisee, what I am grateful for is that you are not going to answer again as you say. For even suggesting the possibility that Jesus Christ was born a sinner because He was born in the flesh like all other children. Putting a cloud over Jesus Christ is a sin in itself. It might be because you might be one who believes Jesus is not God. I already know there is many who don't believe God came in the flesh. I have heard them already before. Thanks for not answering anymore.
---Mark_V. on 5/4/11


James L, I will answer you since you have more control.
1. All children born are born "dead in trespasses and sins" Eph. 2:1.
2. we are "sold under sin" Rom. 7:14.
3. And "We are by nature children of wrath" Eph. Only by the quickening power of the Holy Spirit may we be brought out of this state of spiritual death. And it is God who makes us alive as we become His craftsmanship, Eph.2:1-10.
4. The minds and conscience are defiled at birth. "But to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure, but even their mind and conscience are defiled" Titus 1:15.
5. The wicked go astry from the womb, they err from their birth, speaking lies." Psalm 58:3.
---Mark_V. on 5/4/11




I agree Mark there was no sin imputed to CHRIST JESUS. But imputed sin or original sin is a doctrine I do not agree with. There is only one main passage by David that is used to argue for this. I always have a difficult problem with a doctrine based on one passage without context.

On another site now closed you said you felt judged by Wesley on Sabbath. As you pointed out he was speaking on first day and he was not writing to you specifically. I have also looked up the Orthodox on Sabbath and Calvin on Sabbath you should do so also. I believe that you will find that Sabbath keeping is considered a moral issue.
---Samuel on 5/4/11


Genesis 8:21 "And the LORD smelled a sweet savour, and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake, for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth, neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done."
Jeremiah 3:25 "... for we have sinned against the LORD our God, we and our fathers, from our youth even unto this day, and have not obeyed the voice of the LORD our God."

Mark 20:20 "And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man."


Cluny, First two verses say from "youth". Christ said, "man", NOT fetus, child or even youth.
---Nana on 5/4/11


//Romans 1 says we BECOME sinners//

James_L, can you be more specific?...not arguing...just interested.
---aka on 5/4/11


\\The burden of proof is on you to provide any scripture which says that babies are born sinners.\\

How about, "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquities, and in sin did my mother conceive me" from Psalm 51/50?

Will that do?

Of course, when Luther himself was proven wrong by the Bible, he simply falsified the text, but we need not go there, need we?

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/4/11


When we are born we have no understanding of sin or anything else. The only thing that sends one to hell is the rejection of Christ as Saviour. An infant/child, up to a certain age has no way of accepting or rejecting due to their lack of understanding. God is all Merciful & Righteous. His Judgement is pure. He will not send an innocent soul to hell.
---Reba on 5/4/11




Mark V,

The burden of proof is on you to provide any scripture which says that babies are born sinners.

All you've done here is recite your beliefs with no scripture to support them, and charge others with heresy.

As Martin Luther once said, "prove me wrong from scripture or shut up" (loose paraphrase, of course)
---James_L on 5/3/11


No one but you are saying Jesus is a sinnner mark, No one but you.

I am grateful for one thing, the people who do actually understand this seem A LOT sharper in their understanding for this debate. While still others continue with infantile circular logic that paints God as an unjust judge will continue to teach false teachings.

You need to repent Markv, your pride has blinded you and bound you to your ignorance, this is the last I'll say till this horrible question is raised again.
---Pharisee on 5/3/11


Samuel, you do good with passages, yet on this topic your way off. The guilt of Adam, his sin, was imputed to all his descendants. There is a paralled between the way in which the guilt of Adam is imputed to us and that in which the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us, so that the one illustrates the other. We were cursed through Adam and were redeemed through Christ, although we were no more guilty of Adam's sin than we are personally meritorious because of Christ's righteousness.
If Christ was imputed sin through the curse, how could He be our righteousness? It is utterly absurd to hold to salvation through Christ unless we also hold to damnation through Adam, for Christianity is based on this representative principle.
---Mark_V. on 5/3/11


Samuel 2: The wages of sin is death. Though death came to Jesus it was because He was foreordain from the foundation of the world to be a sacrifice for sin, for the sin of all mankind. How could He if He was a sinner? Yes, Jesus was born with a physical body, a soul, and a spirit, just like all human beings are, but there was no sin imputed on Him, for he was not born of man but of the Holy Spirit. Adam, as the natural and federal head of the race, injured not only himself but all his posterity, so that in virtue of the union, federal and natural, between Adam and his posterity, his sin, although not their act, is so imputed to them that it is the Judicial ground of the penalty threatened agains him coming also to all his descendants.
---Mark_V. on 5/3/11


Dear Mark v

You did not read carefully what James and I said. James added some very good points. But you need to read both our letters.

You are saying sin nature means the person is a sinner. This is more like original sin concept. Which I do not believe in.
---Samuel on 5/3/11


Luke 2:52 "And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man."
That is how men grow from a baby in relationship with other men and God.
---nana on 5/3/11


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James L, you did not read what I said to Pharisee, I said,

"Pharisee, you must mean heretical 101. What Scripture did James give where it says, Jesus was a sinner?"

I would suggest you read the answer first. With your prior statement you suggested that Jesus was born with everything a new child is born with, that is true, but He was not born with a sin nature for He came of the Holy Spirit not of Adam's curse. All descendants of Adam have a sinful nature. They are condemned already. Not Christ.
---Mark_V. on 5/3/11


Nana, Jasheradan

Thanks very much for the encouragement
---James_L on 5/3/11


willa,
Jesus was not created, He was born.

The Word became flesh.

Colossians
1:15 He is the firstborn of all creation.

1:18 He is the firstborn from the dead.

1:16 By Him all things were created

Genesis
1:26 God said "Let Us make man"

1:27 So God made man

Was God asking for help from someone who was incapable of helping?

Or was He patronizing the angels? Making fun of them?

Hey, why don't you angels help me make man? Oh, yeah. Psyche. April fool's. You guys can't do that.
---James_L on 5/2/11


Welcome to the club, James L. Dont take it personally. Mark twists everyone words.

Jesus came JUST AS WE ARE, tempted yet without sin. That is how He is able to help us in our time of temptation. Satan came at him when he was at his weakest...WHY... because he knew that would be the most opportune moment to get Jesus to sin. Yet Jesus overcame him. And when the temptations were thru, what happened. The angels came to minister to him (and very likely FED him as well). He is fully man and fully God! You cant take the man part away from the son of God. He deserved to be seated at the right hand of the Father! He did what no other man could do!!
---Jasheradan on 5/2/11


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James_L,

I am loving your understanding. It is clear, simple and to the point.
---Nana on 5/2/11


Mark V,
I did not say Jesus was born a sinner.

If you go back and read what I wrote, it says "I" "F"

"IF"

"IF"

"IF" babies are born sinners, "THEN" Jesus would have been also.

But, no baby is a sinner. I wasn't, you weren't, Jesus wasn't, etc etc etc.

NOBODY is BORN a sinner. Romans 1 says we BECOME sinners

And I am not stripping Jesus of His deity. He pitched His tent (Physical Body) in our midst (John 1:14). That is, He clothed Himself with mere flesh. He was made [for a little while] lower than the angels (Hebrews 2:7)

BUT, being God, He was able to withstand ALL the fiery darts of the devil, unlike us.
---James_L on 5/2/11


Pharisee and Nana,

great, great scriptural appeal.

Samuel, one reason for confusion over original sin is found in an objective study of Gnosticism. They held to a distinction between the spirit and the flesh, which is found in the teachings of Jesus, Paul, John. But the Gnostics took a biblical concept and warped it.

So the Fathers stopped making the distinction, and that affected how our guilt in Adam was viewed. It changed from a physical association to a whole association, and suddenly there was a doctrine of original sin.
---James_L on 5/2/11


Acts 3:22: "For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me, him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you."

Matthew 28:18 "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth."

And concerning babies,
Luke 12:48 "But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."
maybe they get roasted on Low for crying too much?
---Nana on 5/2/11


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Pharisee, you must mean heretical 101. What Scripture did James give where it says, Jesus was a sinner? The only way you can make Jesus a sinner is if you believe Jesus Christ was not God incarnate, but just sinful man. And if you believe that, you are not a Christian but a heretic. So go ahead and strip the Lord of His deity if you can. Many have done that before you. Have you ever taken a Christology course? I suggest you do before you blaspheme the Lord your God.
"Before Abraham came to be (Greek-genesthai), I am (Greek-eimi)" (literal trans.) He was not only claiming to have existed before Abraham, but He was claiming to be the Eternal I AM, that is, the Jehovah of the Old Testament.
---Mark_V. on 5/2/11


Most Christians believe that while all inherit the sin nature, a small childs sins are remitted (i.e. their sins are covered in the blood of Jesus). The Jews considered children to be fully accountable at the age of twelve. Also, little children sin, but dont completely understand such matters, 2Corinthians 5:10, Revelations 20:11-13. Deuteronomy 1:39, Psalm 36:5-10, 68:5, 148:8-9, Jonah 4:11, John 20:23. "And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand, and also much cattle?"
---Glenn on 5/2/11


In other words, "Are There Children in Hell." (continutation of a recently closed out blog)

Short answer: Uninformed infants, NO! Rebelious children who have been taught about Christ & die in their sin, YES!

See comments made on previous blog, same subject, for Scripture references.
---Leon on 5/2/11


John 17:5 "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."

Had...

1 John 4:3 "And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come, and even now already is it in the world."
---Nana on 5/2/11


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The Seventh day Adventist church teaches JESUS was not a sinner. But the nature he was born with is a matter of debate.

The question resolves around what sin is and what does sin nature or original sin mean.

Sin has more then one defintion but one is trangression of the law.

Sin nature or original sin can mean born guilty of sin as many churches teach or unable to resist sin as we and some other teach. The unable to resist sin means children are not sinners they are potential sinners who when they reach the age of accountablility will commit sin.

These are the reasons behind our conflict.
---Samuel on 5/2/11


"Jame L, my goodness you are saying that Christ was born with a sin nature."

God can't be tempted. Jesus was.

So what other part of him could be? His Flesh. It's so simple to see...If Jesus was not like us we have no redemption. Why don't you understand that Mark? It's basic stuff, Christianity 101 and James got it right. Interestingly he quoted scripture to make his point and yet you still argue.

Celestial bodies don't die, that's not what Jesus lived in on the earth, it was an ordinary human body like yours or mine, that's why he was tempted, suffered and died.
---Pharisee on 5/2/11


James,

Jesus was only a desendant of Adam through Mary because God was his Father. This is the very thing God told Eve " I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel". It does not say Adams offspring but Eve's.Also Adam was the son of God also, but through him sin entered the world. But Jesus was the Son of God who took away the sin of the world. Both were created sinless, but only one was without sin.
---willa5568 on 5/1/11


Jame L, my goodness you are saying that Christ was born with a sin nature. You have got to be kidding me. How, I say, can you be so wrong? You have the wrong Jesus. A sinful Jesus. You are actually calling God a sinner. Things you would have been stoned for in the Old Testament, but not now under the new economy, many can and od speak against the deity of Christ now, but what is so strange about that, they don't believe by faith, that Jesus Christ is God incarnate.
"Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit" (Matt. 1:20).
---Mark_V. on 5/2/11


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"... only with speculation and extrapolation could you make them fit the question."

It is your faulty logic, 'speculation and extrapolation' to speak of salvation which the verses you use do not speak of.

"Seems to me that the word holy is a synonym of sanctification."
Lev. 11:44

Pauls theme, it is simply our Lord's, which state that it is such (ill) as come out a man which defile him.

"Yet, we know in our hearts and minds that children are not "sinless"? Selfishness is born into them with vengence and pride."
Mark...
You actually held inquisitions on new born children and extracted such confessions? Did your daddy the devil give you that understanding?
---Nana on 5/1/11


MarkV,

Rom 1:3
concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh,

Rom 9:5
whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

Hebrews 2
14Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same...

16For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.

17Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things...


Jesus is a descendant of Adam according to scripture. IF babies are sinners, then Jesus would have been born a sinner. He became like us in all things.
---James_L on 5/1/11


If Jesus wasn't born under the law of sin and death why'd he die?

Was he not human? That contradicts the Bible's testimony. He redeemed our form to God. He endured the same temptations of any fallen man or we have no hope with ours.

Born of the Spirit, how then did he have a body of flesh? How does Mary's flesh that he came from physically get canceled out? Jesus wasn't born of anything he existed spiritually before there was time.

If he was born in a human body with the ability to understand good and evil he was born as a fallen man but possessed by a higher spirit, why else would he protest at being called good??? He truly was in every way spiritually good.
---Pharisee on 5/1/11


Pharisee, you said:

"And how do you explain Jesus who came down from heaven voluntarily to be born in and illicit human form? If you call babies sinners you have to call Jesus a sinner too"

Christ was not a descendant of Adam. As you said, He came from heaven, and is God incarnate. There is no sin in God. The incarnate Jesus was born of the Spirit not of the flesh. You also said:
" Christ was "born under the law to redeem them that were under the law" indicating He was born in sin, but what the passage means by "born under the law" means, Like all men, Jesus was obligated to obey God's law. Unlike anyone else, however, He perfectly obeyed that law (John 8:46).
---Mark_V. on 5/1/11


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Pharisee,

I do not think we can say yes or no with certainty, because there is no biblical proof of what happens.I am content to know God will be just. I also know God is merciful, yet I see at times whole kingdoms were to be destroyed (women,animals children) by Gods command to Israel. I am not saying children will parish , but am just saying that we cannot say those who believe they will "burn in hell" are wrong
like we are certain.You can also apply this to suicide. Do I know without a doubt they we go to "hell", no, and would never be bold enough to tell their family they will! All I can do is point to Gods justice, loving kindness and mercy so those families have some hope.
---willa5568 on 5/1/11


'hell' is eternal separation from God. Jesus compared the "pain" that those will feel when they are eternal separated as the children felt when they were being sacrificed, which God did not call for.

God will give us what we give to others. This saying is throughout the scriptures. so, if you want to use a few half scriptures then use them all in context.

God is not a baby burner. Man is (figuratively and sometimes literally).
---aka on 4/30/11


baby burners...interesting phraseology...

Jer 7:30 "For the sons of Judah have done evil in my sight, declares the LORD. They have set their detestable things in the house that is called by my name, to defile it.
Jer 7:31 And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind.
---aka on 4/29/11


Willa there will always be this question, it comes up several times a year and the baby roasters come out of the woodwork to tell the lies they've been handed about God.

I DO know the answer. When people conjure up a God who can't even keep a man's God given moral standard of righteousness they're turning people away from the Lord.

I won't allow that. I'm not saying the squabbling is any more conducive to that end, it's not, but this is one heresy that must be challenged BECAUSE of the sensitive nature of the topic. If the baby roasters would keep their garbage to themselves I'd not have to say a word. Even the lost know they're wrong.
---Pharisee on 4/29/11


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Mark Eaton,
I think somewhere I must have posted something that you misunderstood, because you are partly arguing my side of the debate for me.

I agree that holy is synonymous with sanctified. Various translations word it eiher way.

Either way, it means set apart.

Children being unclean doesn't have anything to do with being un "saved" or demonically possessed, it means not being accepted as a part of the community, and not in God's favor.

The passage doesn't say it, but by inference, the unbelieving spouse would be unclean also.

Does an unbeliever go to heaven without believing, on account of a spouse's faith? The passage includes spouses as well as children.

both are holy IN the believer
---James_L on 4/29/11


Is there anyone on here that would be so bold to tell anyone their children are going to hell?

I find it very callous to not consider the pain someone has already felt when they lost their child. There are a lot of arguments for or against, but there is no sure answer. Consider this, what if they read this blog would you feel you have blessed them.

I am not saying they are or aren't, because I don't know. Be thoughtful of those brothers and sisters who have been in this situation, and comfort them.
---willa5568 on 4/29/11


If you have any problem with that, take it up with God.
---Mark_Eaton on 4/29/11

Do you even read what I posted??? I agree all are born in sin. Look also in Galatians and see where it says Christ was "born under the law to redeem them that were under the law" the law of sin and death, humans being born under the law of sin and death die, so did Jesus, now I ask you and demand an answer, if he was born under the law and it's damnable as you insist why do we not count him a sinner too?

What you believe has NO ROOM for this, and so you have a Jesus who cannot redeem you. THINK IT OVER
---pharisee on 4/29/11


Are you perfect and holy as your Father which is in heaven? You seem to equate being holy to being saved so, are you perfect and holy?
---Nana on 4/29/11

I did not write the Book of Corinthians. I merely quoted it.

If you choose to believe something that you cannot prove Scripturally, don't let me stop you.

But as the Blog says, I showed Scripture to back up my beliefs. I looked at your original Scriptures. They do not speak DIRECTLY at the subject, only with speculation and extrapolation could you make them fit the question. Nor do your current set of Scriptures mean anything to the question, as I have made a profession of faith.

Seems to me that the word holy is a synonym of sanctification.
---Mark_Eaton on 4/29/11


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The fact of the matter is simple, being born is NOT A SIN.

Even if it is, how do you now count it against someone who's only part in it is involuntary?

And how do you explain Jesus who came down from heaven voluntarily to be born in and illicit human form? If you call babies sinners you have to call Jesus a sinner too, not only that a bigger one because he chose his place.

I'm tired of idiotic cut and paste theology, You can fight against my "flawed logic" all you want Eaton, it came from above.
---Pharisee on 4/29/11


Matthew 5:48: "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."
1Pet.1:16: "Because it is written, Be ye holy, for I am holy."

Mark Eaton,
Are you perfect and holy as your Father which is in heaven? You seem to equate being holy to being saved so, are you perfect and holy?
---Nana on 4/29/11


Not saying that believers' children are allowed to go to heaven on account of the prents' faith.
---James_L on 4/28/11

Why not.

The portion of the verse you omitted in 1 Cor 7:14 is "your children are unclean".

Unclean. Not cleansed, shunned/abstained in the Levitical sense. Unclean like the unclean spirit Jesus drives out in Mark.

Funny that God would call your children unclean if they are truly "sinless" and will go straight to heaven.

I think you need to read all the words and not omit the ones you do not like.
---Mark_Eaton on 4/29/11


On account of the believer, the unbeliving spouse is set apart for divine favor, and may come to faith in Christ. Same for children, "holy are" (agia estin)
---James_L on 4/28/11

OK, lets take your explanation to its end.

Based upon this explanation, only when the child makes a profession of faith in Christ will they be called "saved" or "holy".

So every child that dies before they make that profession of faith is damned. Even if the parent is a believer.

Now as I see it, the connection you make to the children also, is reading INTO the verses. God makes it very clear that the wife/husband must make their own profession of faith, but does not say so for the children.
---Mark_Eaton on 4/29/11


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If spiritual death is passed from Adam to his descendants, then Jesus would have been born spiritually dead.
---James_L on 4/28/11

No one is born spiritually "dead". Not all have been "born again".

We all have the penalty of sin to pay for, which is death. However, Jesus was the only sinless person and did not deserve death. Only His sinlessness could pay the penalty for us.

We do not inherit spiritual death from Adam, we inherit a sinful nature, bondage to sin, and the penalty of sin which is death.
---Mark_Eaton on 4/29/11


The following passage is open to many interpretations.

Rom 2:11- 15 For there is no respect of persons with God.
For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law,
(For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another,)

Since children could not have knowingly sinned. I believe they will wake up in heaven.
---Samuel on 4/29/11


God sins by making sinners -it's not being born in sin that's the sin condemning people to Hell, it's the sin committed as a result of our fallen condition.
---pharisee on 4/28/11

Sorry. That is not what Scripture says.

Rom 3:9 "What then? Are we better than they? Not at all, for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin"

The entire world is born under the bondage of sin.

If you have any problem with that, take it up with God.
---Mark_Eaton on 4/29/11


The only sin we can point to is one they had no choice in.
---Pharisee on 4/28/11

Your logic is flawed. Your logic says that since babies do not have any part in sin, then they are "without sin". Yet, Romans is clear. All have sinned there is no exception.

Your fine sensibilities are insulted that God would condemn "innocent" children. Yet, we know in our hearts and minds that children are not "sinless"? Selfishness is born into them with vengence and pride.

Also, we hold the parents responsible for the children until a certain age. God is no different. It is the responsibility of the parent to ensure the safety of the child.
---Mark_Eaton on 4/29/11


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Really?
Matthew 19:14 "But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven."
---Nana on 4/28/11

It would be nice if you could read a simile and identify it.

Did you read the 1 Cor 7 passage? How do YOU interpret it?
---Mark_Eaton on 4/29/11


\\So, you're saying that a person can be holy without being saved?\\
---Cluny on 4/28/11

In 1Cor 7:14, that is what Paul is saying.

An unbeliving spouse is made holy in the believing spouse. Two verses later, he says:

"For how do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?" (verse 16)

Paul said they have been made holy (egiastai), and may be saved (soseis)

On account of the believer, the unbeliving spouse is set apart for divine favor, and may come to faith in Christ. Same for children, "holy are" (agia estin)

Not saying that believers' children are allowed to go to heaven on account of the prents' faith.
---James_L on 4/28/11


Pharisee,
good stuff.

My thoughts exactly on Romans 5

If spiritual death is passed from Adam to his descendants, then Jesus would have been born spiritually dead.

Jesus, after all, is a physical descendant of Adam.
---James_L on 4/28/11


For the sake of argument let's simplify the question, does being born in a fallen condition condemn someone to Hell?

In a roundabout way it certainly does. Fallen beings are doomed to sin, it's in our natural make up. It is however a huge leap to say that man is completely irredeemable from conception when there is yet no possibility of committing a sin. The only sin we can point to is one they had no choice in.

What's at stake here is more then what you or I think, it's the message being sent about the one and only God of the universe. All of us came to him because he allowed us to know him. When the truth of God is known it magnifies his glory in our eyes, when that "truth" causes us disgust it will always be false.
---Pharisee on 4/28/11


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Prayer . . . about this . . . not just hurrying to answer to an issue. We answer to God, first. Well, yes without a law there can be no sinning against a law. So, ones say an unborn is innocent and so will go to Heaven if he or she dies before being born. But the Bible does not say this, directly. And the Bible does say without holiness "no one will see the Lord," in Hebrews 12:14. I can't tell God that unborn people are holy like He is. So, it is for God to handle. I need to deal, myself, with whether I am really holy so I can see the Lord. "And pray for babies and the unborn."
---Bill_willa6989 on 4/28/11


Rom 3:23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"

OK Mark Eaton, so since no one chose to be born God sins by making sinners -tell me how it can be any other way...if it's not then you have to admit it's not being born in sin that's the sin condemning people to Hell, it's the sin committed as a result of our fallen condition.

Jesus was born as a man knowing good and evil, NOW, venture to call him a sinner if you dare friend. You won't and you can't, but it's what being "shaped in iniquity" is all about, man existing in an elicit form, God allows and nobody ever chose it so it can't be damnable.
---pharisee on 4/28/11


Rom 5:12 "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned"

Death, PHYSICAL death is what's being spoken of, it's the result of the fall of man, it's a consequence of Adam's sin but Jesus mentions a different "condemnation" in John 3:19 it's the rejection of his light for darkness/evil...Look now to Ezekiel 18:20 and learn from the Prophet as he states plainly "the soul that sins shall die" The sons of Adam do NOT pay for his sin as soooo many mislead Christians believe. Learn to be led and you can find the truth, claiming to see keeps you blind.
---pharisee on 4/28/11


\\Holy doesn't mean "saved", it means "set apart" for divine favor, provision, etc.\\

So, you're saying that a person can be holy without being saved?

That salvation has nothing to do with sanctification?

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 4/28/11


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\\Where does Scripture say that babies do not have the law?

Only children of believers are made holy.\\
---Mark_Eaton on 4/28/11


Paul said in Romans 7:9

"I was once alive apart from the law"
as a child

"but when the commandment came"
Paul wasn't around when Moses delivered the law at Sinai. This is when he understood it.

"sin became alive and I died"
he wasn't saying he died physically.

alive apart from the law, as a child. Then when the law came to his understanding, sin came alive and Paul died spiritually, as a man.

Holy doesn't mean "saved", it means "set apart" for divine favor, provision, etc.
---James_L on 4/28/11


Rom 3:23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"
Paul was speaking of a remedy for that, Grace through Faith.
Only an idiot would state that an infant needs to have faith to be saved. How about the mentaly less abled?

"Only children of believers are made holy."
---Mark_Eaton on 4/28/11

Really?
Matthew 19:14 "But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven."
---Nana on 4/28/11


Just as there are wild brute and also tame beasts in the animal kingdom: so likewise there are some infants and children that are unholy and go to hell, and there are also some infants and children that are holy and go to heaven. Please read, I Corinthians 7:14.
---Eloy on 4/28/11


Babies do not have the law, so sin is not counted. They are alive to God so they go to heaven.
---James_L on 4/27/11

Where does Scripture say that babies do not have the law?

What I see is this.

Rom 3:23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"

Rom 5:12 "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned"

1 Cor 7:14 "For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband, for otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy".

Only children of believers are made holy.
---Mark_Eaton on 4/28/11


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I am sorry that I mentioned that about the OT. As I was going to bed last night, God spoke to me about this. This question is a very sensitive one. There are so many who have and who will lose there young ones, and the only comfort they have is to believe they will be in God's kingdom.

It is something that is better not answered or asked since we have no sure answer. Let God in His mercy and justice determine the answer. We can not steal the hope of those who have lost one.
---willa5568 on 4/28/11


Rom 9:15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
Rom 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

Why do we go on about what is not ours?
---aka on 4/28/11


Though I do not know the answer to this, if it comforts you to believe they do, then unless anyone can convince you by scripture then be at peace with that.

I do remember in the OT there were times God told Israel to Kill all of the Amalekites, Jebusites, Canaanites etc... men,women and children.
---willa5568 on 4/28/11


John 9:21: "But by what means he now seeth, we know not, or who hath opened his eyes, we know not: he is of age, ask him: he shall speak for himself."

John 16:21 "A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world."

Joy coming and going:
Luke 15:10
---Nana on 4/28/11


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The bible is silent as others have said, BUT, there is enough written for us to understand the whole thing, and the key to the puzzle is the humanity of Jesus. The short answer is NO, children don't go to Hell.

125 words is not sufficient to expound the intricacies of this complex and delicate matter, however I will tell you most without listening to the spirit come to the opposite conclusion. I was confronted with this issue 6 years ago on this site and answer obediently before I even understood the whole thing...then it was revealed.
---Pharisee on 4/27/11


\\Children and infants who die BEFORE the age of accountability (when you understand to repent and turn to Jesus Christ) WILL go to Heaven.\\

Leslie, where does the Bible say this?

And where does the Bible use the term "age of accountability"?
---Cluny on 4/27/11


scriture is not needed to know that God does not send those whos mental capacity reveals they have no concept of sin are doomed in hell for them.
---tom2 on 4/27/11


\\The Bible say nothing on the issue.\\
---Ignatius on 4/27/11

I would disagree here. The apostle Paul does speak to when a man dies spiritually.

Rom 5:13
sin is not counted where there is no law.

Rom 7:7-11
if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin...For apart from the law, sin lies dead. I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died. The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me. For sin, seizing an oportunity through the commmandment, deceived me and through it killed me.

Babies do not have the law, so sin is not counted. They are alive to God so they go to heaven.
---James_L on 4/27/11


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The Bible say nothing on the issue. The issue has not really been dealt with by the Church. Among the early Church Fathers, one will find various opinions on the issue.

Leave them in the hands of the Almighty, who is full of Mercy.

Lord, Have Mercy!

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 4/27/11


Children and infants who die BEFORE the age of accountability (when you understand to repent and turn to Jesus Christ) WILL go to Heaven. This is because they do not know any better to repent and turn to Jesus Christ.
---Leslie on 4/27/11


Leave it in God's hands.
---Cluny on 4/27/11


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