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Who Are The Faithful

Roman Catholics call themselves "THE FAITHFUL." The Word of Faith Movement say their teaching is "FAITH BASED." What is your definition of "FAITH"?

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 ---Rob on 5/4/11
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Mark still putting words in people's mouths to discredit them I see. Thats too bad.

Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

Sounds to me like God is looking for faith instead of handing it out like its candy.

Instead of seeing faith as a sign of intelligence and thinking men are taking credit for Gods salvation (which we are certainly not), why not attribute it to wisdom like the Bible does. The wise man will lay himself out before God and accept Jesus Christ. The foolish man will not.

God hates the proud and shows mercy to the humble. Its not a matter of a man's intelligence. All men can understand the gospel, but they will not all accept it as truth.
---CraigA on 6/1/11


No one is arguing we are saved BY GRACE. Since GRACE is Jesus death and resurrection, shed blood. That's why salvation is a GIFT from God. Jesus is actually the Gift.

For God so loved the world HE GAVE the GIFT of His SON, to die on a cross for our sin.

OH what a GIFT! Praise God
---kathr4453 on 6/1/11


Kathr4453 and Craig A--Grammatically, prepositions have nothing to do with it. And the noun "salvation" does not appear in the sentence. It's a noun-pronoun thing.

I knew I would get fired upon if I dared agree with MarkV about ANYTHING.

I am defending God's word.
I wouldn't care about the English grammar, EXCEPT when people try using it to prop up their doctrine. Where DOES your faith come from, yourself?
And how special are you because you have faith and someone else doesn't? I say you could have no faith but for God.

The truth of God does not depend on English grammar. You were foolish to try to make it so.
---Donna66 on 6/1/11


When someone gives you a GIFT, you say Thank you for the GIFT.

When I Thank God, I thank Him for Jesus Christ, I thank HIM that He sent His Son to die for my sin.

But some here say they thanked God for the gift of FAITH. So what does that make Jesus...chopped liver?
---kathr4453 on 6/1/11


As Pedant ... may I be unpedantic? May I offer a suggestion that does not rely on pedantic strict grammar?

I suggest in this case, "it" refers neither to grace nor to faith, but to the thing which is being discussed in the sentence ... that is, Salvation.

Salvation is the gift of God.

"Grace through faith" is how He gives Salvation
---pedant on 6/1/11


EXACTLY pedant.
---kathr4453 on 6/1/11




OK here is a sentence. Let's disect

The repairman is at the door waiting to get in.

(at is a preposition) door is a noun, and is the object of the preposition , and not the object of the subject.)

Repairman is the subject.

The repairman is waiting to get in. He could be at the mailbox too. But where he's at is not the object of the subject.
---kathr4453 on 5/31/11


CraigA: The English teacher was strict, not "strick".
---Donna66 on 5/31/11
donna, now you are getting as poopy as poopsey.

When discussing grammar structure in no way insults one as saying one uses bad grammar. THAT is what you thought here, and ran headlong into a bed pan.

No one is discussing spelling or, (and if you go back and read one of YOUR posts here, it is gramatically incorrect.) I thought at first markv did write it because he doesn't understand english.

NO EXCUSES, scripture is also in Spanish, and has the exact meaning no matter what language.
---kathr4453 on 5/31/11


I'm done. I feel like Im trying to convince someone the sky is blue here and they're arguing that its "cobalt".
---CraigA on 5/31/11


Ephesians 2:8-9 AMP

For it is by free grace (Gods unmerited favor) that you are
saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christs
salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your
own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of
God, Not because of works [not the fulfillment of the Laws
demands], lest any man should boast. [It is not the result of what anyone can
possibly do, so no one can pride himself in it or take glory to himself.]
---Freedom on 6/1/11


Craig, the fact is that you guys will argue your way out of any passage given to you, that it becomes so laughable that you guys will contrive any thing that comes to your mind just to argue your way out of salvation. Which is not only possible if neither one is save to begin with.
The reason I say this is because you refuse to believe that you were saved by grace. All the work of God. Never by your own free will.
---Mark_V. on 6/1/11




\\never once does Paul say, that we are saved "on account of faith"\\
---Mark V. on 5/31/11


Mark V, consider Romans 4:21-22
"being fully assured that what God had promised...Therefore (because of, or on account of it), it was also credited to him as rigteousness

But I agree that faith is a gift.



Kathr and Craig,
Faith is passive, being convinced.

Who ever chose to believe anything? Nobody.

How about you try to believe the world is flat, and let me know tomorrow how that's coming along?

Faith is being convinced based on the trustworthiness of someone else, not based on a decision
---James_L on 6/1/11


As Pedant ... may I be unpedantic? May I offer a suggestion that does not rely on pedantic strict grammar?

I suggest in this case, "it" refers neither to grace nor to faith, but to the thing which is being discussed in the sentence ... that is, Salvation.

Salvation is the gift of God.

"Grace through faith" is how He gives Salvation
---pedant on 6/1/11


There are GRAMMATICALLY only 2 words "it" can possibly refer to: It must be either GRACE or FAITH.
Grace by definition is a gift, so it must be faith.

Ask any English teacher.
---Donna66 on 5/31/11


That's a strange comment..Grace is a gift so faith must be the gift??? Hello?

Donna66, the SUBJECT of any sentence is never found within a prepositional phrase.

BY and THROUGH are prepositions.

(By Grace), (Through Faith )are prepositional phrases.
---kathr4453 on 5/31/11


And Donna.... check your preposition list. BY and THROUGH are both preps, ma'am.

I remember me 4th grade preposition song> Praise be to God for that one.

Just in case you forgot yours theres a complete list of preps at englishclub dot com.
---CraigA on 5/31/11


donna66, you should have just stayed out of it, rather then defending poor markV, you should be defending GOD'S WORD.

Let the man fend for himself and stop acting like his mama!
---kathr4453 on 5/31/11


And Romans 5:18 puts the nail in the coffin of Calvin's elitist doctrine.. ty Kathr.
---CraigA on 5/31/11


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CraigA-- I admit it's laughable, but it's this simple. PRONOUNS can only refer to NOUNS.
"YOU ARE SAVED" is not a NOUN.
(please check out a grammar reference, or ask an English teacher)
---Donna66 on 5/31/11


"We went to the amusement park by car thru the front gate. It was awesome!"

IT ------> going to the amusement park

Was the car or front gate awesome? NO because they arent the subject of the sentence! Im am dying here....sheesh!


"You are saved by grace thru faith. IT is the gift of God."

IT----------> (c'mon you know the answer)
---CraigA on 5/31/11


CraigA: The English teacher was strict, not "strick".
---Donna66 on 5/31/11


Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation, even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


Scripture teaches scripture. Let's not be Johnny One Notes singing the same note over and over...

The song has many more verses, and a wonderful melody when all sung together, tells a marvelous story.
---kathr4453 on 5/31/11


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LOL! I'm sorry but I find this quite humorous now. Now we know why the English teacher was so strick! haha

For by grace are ye saved thru faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Now... take out the prepositional phrases (since they are NOT the subject...sigh)

You are saved (common english), and that not of yourself: IT is the gift of God..


1: YOU ARE SAVED, and that not of yourselves

2: IT is the gift of God

Now what is "IT" referring to?
---CraigA on 5/31/11


MarkV-- Don't listen to CraigA or kathr4453. They are is all wet as far as grammar is concerned. They are dead wrong. (and here they are gloating about their knowledge of English grammar,and talking about your grammatical errors!)

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

There are GRAMMATICALLY only 2 words "it" can possibly refer to: It must be either GRACE or FAITH.
Grace by definition is a gift, so it must be faith.

Ask any English teacher.
---Donna66 on 5/31/11


SCRIPTURE has already told us what the GIFT IS, and you will find no where faith is a gift leading to salvation. However FAITH is one of the gifts of the spirit given after savation,Romans 12, not to be confused with. If you think it is so, then ALL have been given a measure of it.


Romans 5:15
But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, ,and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Romans 5:17
For if by one man's offence death reigned by one, much more they which receive abundance of grace and of .the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
---kathr4453 on 5/31/11


Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Come on, you grammarians! It is the gift of God is a complete sentence. "IT" can only refer to FAITH (a noun, not a prepositional phrase). "IT" is a PRONOUN (pro-noun), and as such can stand for nothing but a NOUN. Thus, it cannot refer to the phrase "you are saved" (which is NOT a noun).
---Donna66 on 5/31/11


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To believe through Grace is to believe in Jesus Christ alone. Grace is God's riches at Christ's expense. Grace is Christ Crucified. So we believe in Christ Crucified.

But MarkV, you keep saying on account of faith. Let me ask you this: will there be any saved who have no faith?

So it's either FAITH or the LAW. No one is saved on account of the Law. Abraham's FAITH was COUNTED for righteousness. Does "counted" here mean on account of his faith? I believe it does.

Let's look in strongs "COUNTED" and see what it says.
---kathr4453 on 5/31/11


Ok MarkV, i just looked up "counted", strongs 3049. That same greek is used for IMPUTED.

Also it does say on account of.

One must understand IMPUTED Righteousness, our Justification, our legal standing before God, that only comes by/through faith when we take God's word that we believe Jesus died for our sin.

Jews, told to put away the law, as we see in Hebrews, was NO SECRET only a select chosen few are given opportunity to see and believe. They were told, in Hebrews 10, there is no more sacrifice for sin, Jesus paid it all.

Our Justification is not the new birth, but your New Birth cannot come about until you are first justified, or counted/imputed righteous, having the imputed righteousness of Christ.
---kathr4453 on 5/31/11


CraigA and kathr4453--
You BOTH need to review your grammer. I challenge you to pull out your old grammer books....or ANY recent ones, and make your case. Check the use of nouns and pronouns.
---Donna66 on 5/31/11


Haha I loved that too, Kathr :) and chemistry. Those were my too fav subjects.

Mark, this is why Ive asked you time and time again if you were foreign to the english language, because Ive seen you repeatedly use poor grammar (ie the wrong verb tenses) as most people do who have trouble with English. Its not insulting to admit english is your second language if it indeed is. It seems you have a pride problem if you cant now see the simple err you make in understanding the subject of Ephesians 2:8,9.

I had to unlearn everything I had learned to find Jesus as well. Its a huge step to take but its well worth it! He does not let your leap of faith go unrewarded.
---CraigA on 5/31/11


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Of course faith is a result of grace. What would we have to believe in if Christ hadnt died for us and the Holy Spirit told us so? (just as He does all men)

He is drawing all men unto himself. That doesnt mean that some wont resist him.
---Jasheradan on 5/31/11


CraigA, I love it, another who knows grammar and sentence structure. It makes a difference between night and day.

And boy am I glad Mrs. Russell, my 6,7,8th grade English teacher (now passes away) put the fear of God in us to know grammar, how to read, and most of all, made us endlessly diagramm sentences. I actually loved diagramming sentences.
---kathr4453 on 5/31/11


Kathr, You said,
"It's funny, markv here says FAITH only comes from God. And God tells us FAITH only comes by Hearing. Now WHO is telling the truth? GOD or MarkV?"
You should believe in the Word of God. And you will know the Truth and it will set you free.
Faith comes from hearing, "hearing what?" Hearing the Word of God. It comes because you never had it. And not everyone gets faith by hearing the Word of God, only those that God has gifted with faith, for "Let us run with endurance the race that is set for us, looking into Jesus the Author and finisher of our faith," 2 Thess,, "and that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men, for not all have faith"
---Mark_V. on 5/31/11


Here it goes again,

"By grace have ye been saved (how? by grace) through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God" We are saved by grace. and that salvation comes through faith, "that is as the instrumental cause" but never once does Paul say, that we are saved "on account of faith" (that is, as the meritorious cause).
The Christians in Achaia had "believed through grace" Acts 18:27. So even the beginning of faith, the disposition to seek salvation, is itself a work of grace and the gift of God.
---Mark_V. on 5/31/11


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Kathr, Ive already broken down that verse for both Mark and Christan.
They simply dont want to look at what the SUBJECT "it" is referring to.

The subject of a sentence (English 101) is NEVER in a propositional phrase!

"by grace" and "thru faith" are both prepositional phrases.

"are ye saved" or in common english "you are saved" ie our salvation is the "IT" referred to that is the "gift of God".

They are both simply ignoring what is right in front of them to stay in their delusion.
---CraigA on 5/30/11


MarkV, let's look again at the verse you posted.

It says IT IS A GIFT from God. IT being singular, and not plural would in fact be the Gift,singular,is Jesus Christ. Otherwise it would say THEY are a gift. THEY being plural, meaning both Jesus and faith are the Gift.

But we know the Gift is Jesus Christ.

God also said by the FOOLISHNESS OF PREACHING to save those who believe.

Why do you ignore all these other 1000 plus sctipture telling us what faith is and isn't?

Why would James even address faith without works is DEAD FAITH. Does God give dead faith to man. But where is James teaching only the elect have genuine faith.

He puts faith and the evidence on man shoulders!
---kathr4453 on 5/30/11


It's funny, markv here says FAITH only comes from God.

And God tells us FAITH only comes by Hearing. Now WHO is telling the truth? GOD or MarkV?
---kathr4453 on 5/30/11


Kathr you said,

"That's why we MUST preach the Gospel to the unsaved. Just as Paul went to the unsaved heathens. FAITH COMES BY HEARING the Word of God. So we see clearly FAITH COMES BY HEARING."

Faith comes from God only through His Word. We are called to preach the gospel because we don't know who will get that faith. God could have 20 people ready to receive faith with power, and all others are not given that faith, that is why they reject it.

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing, it it a gift of God- not because of works, lest any man should boast"
---Mark_V. on 5/30/11


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I dont understand how anyone can read the gospels and the new testament and not see that faith is required from us.

Its not a magic that God gives you. It does say that he strengthens your faith however. He speaks to us thru his Word and his Spirit and those who are humble will receive the truth. Those who are proud will not.

It's not our parents' fault or God's fault if we dont accept Jesus Christ. It's ours.
---Jasheradan on 5/29/11


But they lack that saving faith that only comes from God. Many hear the word of God, not everyone gets faith. And has to be before they can commit to Christ, for a person cannot commit without faith, a conviction through repentance, and a contrite heart.
---Mark_V. on 5/29/11


That's why we MUST preach the Gospel to the unsaved. Just as Paul went to the unsaved heathens. FAITH COMES BY HEARING the Word of God. So we see clearly FAITH COMES BY HEARING.

Jesus said, If I be lifted up I WILL DRAW ALL MEN unto me.

Let's lift up Jesus Christ crucified and risen and focus on that.



---kathr4453 on 5/29/11


Kathr, that was my whole point. God chose you, me and all who is saved, and will be saved in the future, from the foundation of the world, those only He justifies, those only He glorifies. Those only He granted faith to believe. That's why,
"Without faith it is impossible to pleace God, for those who come to Him MUST BELIEVE/FAITH that He IS."
And unsaved sinners have no faith. If they all did, then they would not be unbelievers. But they lack that saving faith that only comes from God. Many hear the word of God, not everyone gets faith. And has to be before they can commit to Christ, for a person cannot commit without faith, a conviction through repentance, and a contrite heart.
---Mark_V. on 5/29/11


MarkV, first, the blog question is not about predestination, but FAITH. So why are you changing the subject? You have been asked questions concerning FAITH and the scriptures many here have presented.

If anyone is confusing the conversation you are.

Without faith it is impossible to pleace God, for those who come to Him MUST BELIEVE/FAITH that He IS.

Do you as a saved person have any trouble believing that He IS? IS WHAT? Why would anyone already saved need to be told this?

Let's stick to the subject FAITH ok, or start another blog question on predestination.

No where does any scripture even suggest Abel/Abraham ect, were predestined before the foundation of the world to have faith.
---kathr4453 on 5/28/11


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Kathr, the passages nowhere even suggest "whosoever will" anywhere. The fact is, that this actions of God were made by Him before the foundation of the world. He knew who they were, and those He knew, those He would call, those same people would be justified, and those same people would then be glorified.
We know as Christians that all things work together for good to "those who love God" the predestine are literally "to mark out, appoint, or determine beforehand" Those God chooses, He destines for His chosen end-that is, likeness to His Son. That is a great mystery to many of you.
---Mark_V. on 5/28/11


I believe the passages MarkV gave are for those who are saved. I believe it means OSAS, in the context that whosoever will, WILL be conformed to the Image of His Son.

God predestined from before the foundation of the world that He would not only SAVE sinners, but that there would be a special body given to Jesus Christ, called the Church, who would reign and rulke with Christ. We are called THE CALLED OUT ONES. We have been CALLED out of this world. And those who have been called OUT OF this world crucified with Christ are joint heirs with Christ. Never promised to earthly Israel, or even Adam & Eve. This is a great Mystery.
---kathr4453 on 5/27/11


MarkV, and the scriptures I gave are for WHOSOEVER WILL, and exactly what one needs to do to walk in the steps of the Faith of Abraham.
---kathr4453 on 5/27/11


Kathr, you said a lot again and with many different context, trying to confuse was is very simple. I will give you what God has to say, Predestination, so you can see the order of things. This passages are only for those who were predestined by God,

"And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, "to those who are the called according to His purpose" For whom He foreknew, "He predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son" that He might be the first born among many brethern. Moreover "whom He predestined, these He also called," whom He called, these He also justified, and whom He justified, those He also glorified."
---Mark_V. on 5/27/11


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Romans 4:16
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace, to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed, not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,


Absolutely CraigA, as we are also told in this verse...


Romans 4:9
Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
---kathr4453 on 5/25/11


Romans 3:30
Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.


MarkV, can you explain why God Justified Jews BY FAITH, and Gentiles THROUGH faith?

And can you explain WHY one must be JUSTIFIED BY or THROUGH Faith FIRST before one is SAVED By GRACE...AKA the Finished work of Christ on the Cross.
---kathr4453 on 5/25/11


Mark, your entire doctrine based on grace before faith. That is not what scripture teaches!

Chapter 5:1,2

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.


Faith gives you access to Gods grace. He's done everything else for us. Is it too much for God to ask us to believe? Must he force belief upon us as well?

Im still waiting on scripture that shows all men would reject the gospel of Jesus Christ unless God intervenes and makes us believe. You never responded to my question a few months ago.
---CraigA on 5/24/11


Mark V,

Faith is trust, thats it, believing what God has promised. To trust God we will be saved through His sons death and resurrection is definitely something we are rewarded for. We did not earn salvation but only believed on how God said we could be partakers in His kingdom.

"without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he REWARDS those who seek him"
---willa5568 on 5/23/11


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Preach it sista!
---CraigA on 5/23/11


MarkV, scripture uses BY FAITH and THROUGH FAITH.

Romans 4:5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
I believed in the ONE who alone Justifies the UNGODLY, I believe in the One alone who can save me, and therefore MY FAITH/trust/belief was counted for Righteousness. Just as Abel's FAITH, believing in the One who Justifies alone, saves alone became an heir of the Righteousness that is in God.

I cannot justify myself. I am Justified by His Blood.

Even David said, blessed is the man who's sin is covered ( by blood of bulls and goats)...Covered was OT, yet they were blessed. In the NT our sin is ,washed away in Christ's BLOOD.
---kathr4453 on 5/23/11


Let's take Abraham's faith.

The promise was given to Abraham before he was faithful. Just as the PROMISE of eternal life is given to all before you are faithful.Abraham was not faithful in order to earn/or receive the promise, but because of the assurance of the promise itself.

Therefore FAITH is not a gift given by God to you prior to receiving. So the truth of justification by HIS BLOOD alone is, we bring nothing to the table of salvation but open empty hands BELIEVING God's promises. He in turn fulfills the promise and we in trust receive the gift of Salvation.

Abel TRUSTED God's promise.
---kathr4453 on 5/23/11


Kathr you said,

"MarkV, the whole idea of Hebrews is telling JEWS In Hebrews that FAITH is not a new concept. Salvation has always been by FAITH,"

We are not saved by faith, we are saved by God's Grace, through faith. But we are saved by the Grace of God through faith. Paul often says that we are saved ""Through" Faith, ( that is, as the instrumental cause ), but never once does he say that we are saved "on account" of faith ( that is, as the meritorious cause
---Mark_V. on 5/23/11


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MarkV, the whole idea of Hebrews is telling JEWS In Hebrews that FAITH is not a new concept. Salvation has always been by FAITH, even before the Law. Again Paul reiterating in Romans 4 Abraham's FAITH who is the father of us all who live and believe by FAITH.

The author is clearly showing them, as well as US, that the LAW did not then, or NOW, and never did SAVE these man of faith. Hebrews 12 is the Spirits of these OT Just men made PERFECT. Their PERFECTION came at Christ's resurrection. Those who went first to Abraham's bosom, before Heaven itself.

God chosing Jacob over Esau does not used the word SAVED EITHER. YET, you totally disqualify all these scriptures to hang on your one verse, not saying one word obout FAITH or SAVED!
---kathr4453 on 5/23/11


We are told from Genesis to Revelation, without the shedding of BLOOD there is no forgivness of sin. We are aslo told that only those who are saved are those forgiven. OT saints from Adam & Eve, Alel, The picture of the passover, even Rahab putting a scarlet thread in her window representing BLOOD, were all pictures of SALVATION. The blood of bulls and goats COVERED sin until Christ came and shed his own blood.

I'm surprised markv you fail to grasp and understand that no one is SAVED apart from Christ's shed blood. Abel brough BLOOD and THAT, through faith in the coming redeemer Genesis 3:15 SAVED HIM!

---kathr4453 on 5/23/11


Willa, the word saved is not found on those passages. What is found is they had faith. And as we know faith comes from hearing the Word of God. It Comes because no one has it.
But we are saved by the Grace of God through faith. Paul often says that we are saved "Through" Faith, ( that is, as the instrumental cause ), but never once does he say that we are saved "on account" of faith ( that is, as the meritorious cause ). So we assume they are saved or are going to be saved from the wrath to come. What we do know is they had faith, and concluded they were saved. Unless the word saved is mention in the context like when Jesus said, "your faith has saved you" do we know they were truly saved.
---Mark_V. on 5/21/11


Kathr 2: I never said they were not saved. I said the word of God did not mention saved in the context only that they had faith. If a person has faith and a conviction from the Spirit, is because he is born of the Spirit, for unbelievers don't have faith, and have no conviction from the Spirit. "The unspiritual man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and "he is not able" to understand them because they are spiritually discerned" 1 Cor. 2:14.
When a person is born of the Spirit, he is not only able to understand, and believe the Word of God, but also is granted repentance so that he can see his sin against God. No one not born of the Spirit can understand, have faith.
---Mark_V. on 5/21/11


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Mark,

Because we are saved from Gods punishment for sin and destruction Abel was definitely saved. Salvation is not complete until Jesus returns though we have been given a "down payment" that we are saved
---willa5568 on 5/20/11


Abel not saved? Hebrews 11 tells us he became an HEIR OF RIGHTEOUSNESS. He's listed with Abraham/Moses and many others, all stating at the end of Heb 11 they were all saved, and are waiting on US.

The Mystery according to Colossians is Christ in you. That Gentiles would be saved was no mystery kept secret.as God told Araham in the OT, IN THEE will ALL families of the earth be blessed.

The Mystery is the CHURCH, the Body of Christ, where the resurrected Christ lives within. OT saints were saved BY FAITH looking forward to the Cross, just as we look back.

Job said I KNOW that my redeemer liveth, and I will see Him in the last days. Job was a Gentile.

You say OT saints were Born Again, and now say they were not saved.
---kathr4453 on 5/20/11


Kathr 2: Was Abel saved? No where are we told he was. What we do know is that he had faith since he obeyed God, while Cain had no faith so disobeyed God. Adam was righteous before God. In fact hardly anyone is mentioned they were saved. What is mentioned is that many had faith in the coming Christ and were righteous because of their faith. Those had faith in God, and as I said before, faith in Christ Jesus (God) comes from hearing the word of God, no one really has it when they are physically born. And when they hear the Word of God, not everyone gets faith in Christ.
---Mark_V. on 5/20/11


Kathr, your answers contradict what you yourself say. You first give the faith of Abel, then you give a passage in Romans which states "According to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began" If it was kept secret and now revealed, how could Abel have faith? It had not been revealed you say. Second, the mystery that was kept secret refers to something hidden in former times but now made known. The New Testament most common mystery is that God would provide salvation for Gentiles as well as Jews (Eph. 3:3-9).
Then you suggest everyone has faith to believe in Christ, which of course is wrong since they are unbelievers, that means no faith. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God, to some it does not come.
---Mark_V. on 5/20/11


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Romans 16:25-27 25Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

27To God only wise, be glory


Ya just can't argue against truth. MADE KNOWN TO ALL NATIONS.

FOR the OBEDIENCE of faith.
---kathr4453 on 5/18/11


//One obedyed the other didn't. MarkV,//

MarkV,
Hebrews 11:1 most assuredly tell us Abel was saved. Yes, Abel is in Heaven right now. Yes faith is OBEDIENCE of the person involved. Therefore faith is not some special gift given to only a few. The Obedience of FAITH is what Paul stated in Romans 16:25-27. the OBEDIENCE of Faith..not the Gift of faith.

Abel was obedient and Cain was not. God gave Cain a second chance to OBEY Him.

Cain and Abel kick off from the very beginning to the very end how God saves sinners. Obedience of faith. from Genesis to Revelation.
---kathr4453 on 5/17/11


Kathr, I don't know where that question came from, but know you want to find fault in what I answer. But there is nothing to proof. What we do know is that both sons were born with a sin nature. For all descendants of Adam are fallen. Here, One obedyed the other didn't. Rather then been repentant for his sinful disobedience Cain was hostile toward God whom he could not kill, and jealous of his brother whom he could kill ( 1 John 3:12, Jude 11). Nothing is mentioned if anyone was saved. We can only speculate which is not Scriptural.
---Mark_V. on 5/17/11


The definition of faith is found in Hebrews. That is what faith is. But Rob is correct, faith given to all men at birth, does not include faith in Christ Jesus. Their faith is limited, because they are spiritually disconnected from God. Separated from God. So their faith is only on things not of God. The lost are free to indulge in their sinful nature (Gal. 5:13) but by their sinful nature they cannot please God, because they have no faith in Him (Romans 8:8). )
---Mark_V. on 5/13/11

So can you PROVE that God GAVE Abel faith in Jesus Christ and Not Cain? And why then did God give Cain another chance?
---kathr4453 on 5/16/11


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Mark 5/13/11,
"For by grace you have BEEN SAVED through faith. And this is not your own doing, IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD (salvation) not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

7
7:14 "For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin."
8:3 "For what the law could not do, in that it was WEAK THROUGH THE FLESH...

7:5 while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law.."


8:7 "the mind of the flesh is enmity against God, for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be..."

8:4 "the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH, BUT AFTER THE SPIRIT..."
---willa5568 on 5/15/11


"Their faith is limited, because they are spiritually disconnected from God. Separated from God. So their faith is only on things not of God."
Mark_V. on 5/13/11

John 4:36-38 "And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together.
And herein is that saying true, One soweth, and another reapeth.
I sent you to reap that whereon ye bestowed no labour: other men laboured, and ye are entered into their labours."
Who sowed? Are the times of sowing long past?
Rom. 10:14-15:...
---Nana on 5/14/11


faith is simply trust or conviction involving something. You believe it is true and trust in it. Our faith(trust/belief)is in Gods word and His promises. Faithful is the outward expression of one who has faith.Everyone is faith based because we build our life on what we trust in. The question is, do we have faith in God to do those things He promised or does our faith cause God to do what we believe He wants.
---willa5568 on 5/14/11


"For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in Him but also suffer for His sake" ( Phil. 1:29 )

Isn't it wonderful MarkV that you a Gentile were granted salvation through the Gospel. THAT is what that verse means. Paul talking to Gentiles. He also stated in Ephesians 2.. that Gentiles are NOW brouht near by the BLOOD of Jesus Christ. NOW indicates a time and place.

12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
---kathr4453 on 5/14/11


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Scripture warns us about those who claim to be of God, but the truth is these people are literally SERVANTS OF SATAN, 2 Corinthians Chapter 11!

What is sad is the fact there are many people who claim to be CHRISTIAN, yet they are believing and following the teachings of these FALSE TEACHERS and SERVANTS OF SATAN!
---Rob on 5/14/11


Luke 17:5 "And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith."

How much faith did they get?
---Nana on 5/13/11


The definition of faith is found in Hebrews. That is what faith is. But Rob is correct, faith given to all men at birth, does not include faith in Christ Jesus. Their faith is limited, because they are spiritually disconnected from God. Separated from God. So their faith is only on things not of God. The lost are free to indulge in their sinful nature (Gal. 5:13) but by their sinful nature they cannot please God, because they have no faith in Him (Romans 8:8). That faith comes from God, "For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in Him but also suffer for His sake" ( Phil. 1:29 ) Saving faith in Jesus Christ comes from the Lord. ( Eph. 2:8,9 )
---Mark_V. on 5/13/11


Faith is the action of trusting, going, obeying, and knowing (Book of James) that something will happen or is going to happen without physical evidence, logical sense, or knowing the full layout of what you are doing and how it is going to happen. Your boss has faith in you to work at your best. I have faith in God to prosper me and lead me to a full life (John 10:10). Faith in my friends for wise council. Read Faith of the Centurion in Matthew (I think)and book of James.
---Scott on 5/13/11


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Faith is what a person believes, therefore everyone has faith.

There are people who have faith (believes) God's Truths, and there are those who have faith (believes) Satan's Lies.
---Rob on 5/12/11


My definition of faith is Christ. For that is what faith generates - Christ. For faith is the "Substance" of things hoped for: the "Evidence" of things not seen. Thus we see what faith is to generate a specific substance that is Christ in us the hope of Glory. Faith defines that we are where: in Christ. Faith defines are actions: Christ-like
Faith determines our walk: The life of Christ. Faith = Christ. Try it in the scriptures and see if he does not fit.
---ivan9398 on 5/9/11


Cluny, I was going to say the same. I LOVE Hebrews 11
---Christina on 5/5/11


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