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Words Not Written Down

Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, Since the Gospels were not written down yet, just what did "word of Christ" mean at the time of the writing of this verse?

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 ---Cluny on 5/9/11
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\\So what! It is Paul's beliefs that we are discussing - not his fellow Jews', and he said "so worship I the God of my fathers, believing ALL things which are written in the law and in the prophets:"\\

What St. Paul is saying is that he belives that Jesus is Messiah.

||If he then rejects the law and the prophets, as you contend,||

But I never did. You're attributing to me things I did not say. In other words, you're bearing false witness against me.
---Cluny on 6/2/11


Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness, and the darkness comprehended it not.
---TheSeg on 6/2/11


Cluny: "Don't such beliefs by Christians make Paul an hypocrite?
---jerry6593 on 6/1/11\\

The "they" in this passage refers to the Jews who rejected Jesus, jerry."

So what! It is Paul's beliefs that we are discussing - not his fellow Jews', and he said "so worship I the God of my fathers, believing ALL things which are written in the law and in the prophets:"

If he then rejects the law and the prophets, as you contend, then you make of him an hypocrite. He, like you, cannot both accept and reject the OT. Which will it be?
---jerry6593 on 6/2/11


Though they were not able to keep the whole law, they were saved by grace through faith, just like everyone today. All who are not saved today are still under the law.
---Mark_V. on 6/1/11

Sounds like this totally contradicts Galatians 2:20-21.

GRACE is the crucified and risen Christ. OUR salvation is our identification with Christ and Him Cricified, no longer I but CHRIST IN ME.

How in the OT could God tell those under LAW Christ died in vain when he hadn't even died yet to those trying to keep both. It's utterly impossibble to live under Law and Grace.

And gentiles were never under the Law to begin with. A Lost anyone is not under the Law. They simply inherited Adams sin nature.

---kathr4453 on 6/1/11


In any case, St. Paul never dealt with the issue of how much of Torah was obligatory upon Jewish Christians--only that, as Acts 15 says, the kashuroth and Sabbath were NOT obligatory upon Gentiles. Cluny

Actually I can not find the verse in Acts 15 that says this can you tell me which one it is?

Good health laws like wash your hands before you eat, bath regularly, after handleing dead things wash and use sanitation are all part of the laws of unclean.

Do you think we should ignore those rules? Or should we accept that GOD knows what we should eat and drink to his glory?

True these things will not cause you to be lost. But disobeying them can kill you.
---Samuel on 6/1/11




In any case, St. Paul never dealt with the issue of how much of Torah was obligatory upon Jewish Christians--only that, as Acts 15 says, the kashuroth and Sabbath were NOT obligatory upon Gentiles.
---Cluny on 6/1/11
Acts 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

There has never been any difference in what Hebrews and None hebrews are to obey when it comes to God

Ephesians 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition [between us],
---francis on 6/1/11


francis, both passages you gave in Acts, 28:23 and 26:22 were methods Paul used to evangelize to the Jews, to prove from the Old Testament that Jesus was the Messiah (Acts 13:16-41). He was not teaching the Law, but the New Covenant under Christ, whom the Prophets had talked about in the Old Testament.
---Mark_V. on 6/1/11


\\Act 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing ALL things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Don't such beliefs by Christians make Paul an hypocrite?
---jerry6593 on 6/1/11\\

The "they" in this passage refers to the Jews who rejected Jesus, jerry.

In any case, St. Paul never dealt with the issue of how much of Torah was obligatory upon Jewish Christians--only that, as Acts 15 says, the kashuroth and Sabbath were NOT obligatory upon Gentiles.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 6/1/11


//believing ALL things which are written in the law and in the prophets://
Do you not believe all things which are written in the law and in the prophets?
Paul believed them but he knew he couldn't live by them, Lev 5 is a good example.
---michael_e on 6/1/11


Poor paul, and all he ever did was teach out of the OT

Acts 28:23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into [his] lodging, to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and [out of] the prophets, from morning till evening.

Acts 26:22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
---francis on 6/1/11




\\Do you teach Impeccability of Jesus?\\

That's never been up for question.

My point was that there seemed to be a typo in your sentence that I quoted.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/31/11


Poor Paul! He is the singular source of all twisted scripture whereby many Christians divorce themselves from the requirements of the Old Testament that God set forth and Christ ratified by word and example. It is claimed that Paul's writings free us from ALL OT law, and we who follow them are called heretics. But Paul himself writes:

Act 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing ALL things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Don't such beliefs by Christians make Paul an hypocrite?
---jerry6593 on 6/1/11


Samuel, you surprise me with your answers. I would had hope that you had read and studied the covenants. Everyone who is lost is under the covenant of works. Under the law God demands righteousness, failure is death,
Under grace He bestows righteouness, (Romans 2:21-24, 8:3,4, Gal. 2:16, Phil 3:9) Law connects with Moses and works given to Israel, Grace ties in with Christ and faith (John 1:17, Romans 10: 4-10)
God elected Moses to be His servant, all other saints were also chosen by God. Though they were not able to keep the whole law, they were saved by grace through faith, just like everyone today. All who are not saved today are still under the law.
---Mark_V. on 6/1/11


Dear Cluny you did not address my post on the fact NonSDA commentaries state Levticus 23 states the Seventh day Sabbath is a convocation.

Can you clarify this, Samuel? I don't think you meant to say that Jesus needed to be saved by His works. Cluny

You are correct. Many years ago Christianity today ran an article called Saved by works. JESUS lived a sinless life. His work is credited to us by grace through Faith. Do you teach Impeccability of Jesus?

Where we would have a disgrement on might be orignal sin.
---Samuel on 5/31/11


\\There has been only one sinless person and JESUS alone is save by works.\\

Can you clarify this, Samuel? I don't think you meant to say that Jesus needed to be saved by His works.

\\So unless you declare that one in the OT is saved and they are all lost. You must admit they were saved by Grace.\\

Aren't we all?

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/31/11


Mark_V, friend, you realy need to reexamine what you are being taught.
Where can you move, forward or backwards that God is not the creator? What can possible change that?
Do you not know that the sabbath is a faith acknowledgment that God is the creator of heaven and earth?
And what type of deceit is this that tells you to take the 7th day off and rest is a work, but to do the same on the 1st day is not?
What sort of deceit says that of you obey 9/10 commandments all is well, but 10/10 is works.

I always say that christianity is a religion for the wise.

CLUNY like it or not, the TORAH does say that the 7th day is a holy convocation. You beliefs cannot change what is clearly written.
---francis on 5/31/11


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No Mark the Old Testament is not a covenant of works.

Zec 3:4 And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.

Is David lost? How about Moses, Noah and all the other People of the bible days. For no one can save themselves by works. There has been only one sinless person and JESUS alone is save by works.

So unless you declare that one in the OT is saved and they are all lost. You must admit they were saved by Grace.
---Samuel on 5/31/11


\\This could not be clearer that you work six days but the 7th, the sabbath is a holy convocation.

If you do not believe God just say so.\\

francis, saying the same wrong thing over and over again does not make it correct.

And didn't you know that chapter and verse divisions are a relatively late innovation? Did you think they were in the original?

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/31/11


Francis, we have moved forward and are now under Christ. Why do you not move forward? I can see you will not and the reason you cannot give any New Testament passages, they all come from the Old Testament and passages that were meant for Israel. People were under a covenant of works, which is what you present day after day. But no matter how hard they tried, they fail. They needed Christ. That is why we have the New Testament. And all those who came from the Old School, needed to get trained to the New School.
---Mark_V. on 5/31/11


Dear Cluny

Matthew Henry and other commentaries I have checked disagree with you.

Yes this is a list of convocations. But the first one on the list is the Sabbath of Rest or the Seventh day Sabbath.

Do you perhaps have an authority you can reference to back up your understanding?

3. Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest--(See on JF & B for Ex 20:8). The Sabbath has the precedence given to it, and it was to be "a holy convocation," observed by families "in their dwellings", where practicable, by the people repairing to the door of the tabernacle, at later periods, by meeting in the schools of the prophets, and in synagogues.
Jamieson, Fauset and Brown
---Samuel on 5/30/11


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Show me where the Bible COMMANDS a "holy convocation" on the WEEKLY Sabbath.

---Cluny on 5/30/11
Leviticus 23:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, [Concerning] the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim [to be] holy convocations, [even] these [are] my feasts.

Leviticus 23:3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day [is] the sabbath of rest, AN HOLY CONVOCATION, ye shall do no work [therein]: it [is] the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.

This could not be clearer that you work six days but the 7th, the sabbath is a holy convocation.

If you do not believe God just say so.
---Francis on 5/30/11


\\Leviticus 23:3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day [is] the sabbath of rest, AN HOLY CONVOCATION, ye shall do no work [therein]: it [is] the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.

Can we now agree that sabbath is for worship based on torah?\\

Wrong again, francis. I know better, even if YOU don't.

This verse is talking about what were called "pilgrim feasts"--Pesach, Shavout, and Sukkoth (Passover, Pentecost, and Booths), not the weekly sabbath.

This is yet another example of how you prove the adage, "A text without a context is a pretext."

Show me where the Bible COMMANDS a "holy convocation" on the WEEKLY Sabbath.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/30/11


Read the commandment in the Torah itself, francis.

There's NOTHING about worship in it. What you are quoting are post-exlic add-ons.
--Cluny on 5/30/11
cluny cluny cluny we both know better don't we

Leviticus 23:3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day [is] the sabbath of rest, AN HOLY CONVOCATION, ye shall do no work [therein]: it [is] the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.

Can we now agree that sabbath is for worship based on torah?
---Francis on 5/30/11


\\Isaiah 66:23 And it shall come to pass, [that] from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
Ezekiel 46:3 Likewise the people of the land shall worship at the door of this gate before the LORD in the sabbaths and in the new moons.
---francis on 5/29/11\\

Read the commandment in the Torah itself, francis.

There's NOTHING about worship in it. What you are quoting are post-exlic add-ons.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/30/11


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\\Your answer shows a sunday morning service for a workday does not Sunday was the day of worship. \\

Let me clarify. This was not just at rare intervals but every Sunday.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/29/11


You've not yet explained what you mean about "observing the Sabbath," as the 4th commandment does NOT enjoin worship, but rather rest from labor, even for one's slaves and farm animals.
---Cluny on 5/29/11
Isaiah 66:23 And it shall come to pass, [that] from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
Ezekiel 46:3 Likewise the people of the land shall worship at the door of this gate before the LORD in the sabbaths and in the new moons.
---francis on 5/29/11


\\Your answer shows a sunday morning service for a workday does not Sunday was the day of worship. \\

Let's me paraphrase what you're saying.

Having a service on a given day does not make it a day of worship.

Have I got it right?

\\But that means many Christians were still observing Sabbath up to 70 years after the death of JESUS. \\

You've not yet explained what you mean about "observing the Sabbath," as the 4th commandment does NOT enjoin worship, but rather rest from labor, even for one's slaves and farm animals.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/29/11


Dear Cluny on 5/28/11

Your answer shows a sunday morning service for a workday does not Sunday was the day of worship.

Now we know that the Jews changed their worship service so as to keep Christians out. You said that happened about 110 AD. That sounds about right.

But that means many Christians were still observing Sabbath up to 70 years after the death of JESUS.

In scripture it was stated that circumscion was optonal. It is also stated not to judge about the Sabbath. But it is never stated to keep Sunday or to not keep Sabbath. Do you agree?
---Samuel on 5/29/11


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Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly

I have changed my answer.

Because it reads "let the word of christ dwell in you," rather than let the wordS of christ dwell in you. It most likely means " Let the MESSAGE about Christ dwell in you"
---Francis on 5/28/11


\\I need to look it up but in one of the early councils they argued about the proper books to teach out of on Sabbath. They had services on both days.\\

Actually the pre-Reformation churches call for DAILY services, though in modern times this is observed only monasteries, cathedrals, and the like.

However, the Eucharist even so is not always celebrated daily, though it can be except on Good Friday.

Christ is risen.
---Cluny on 5/28/11


Of course not. That's because nobody spoke English!
---Cluny on 5/27/11
What I am asking is, what were the exact words used.
Here is why: John wrote:
Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day

Many people take the " lord's day" to mean Sunday. However every biblical, doctrinal, and scriptural reference to the Lord's day refers to the sabbath'

Isaiah 58:13 the sabbath,my holy day,
sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable,

So knowning the exact word used in 110 AD may help
---francis on 5/28/11


Cluny since Saul wrote this just a few years after Christ. I believe many of His sayings were known or written down.

I believe the "Q" existed at this time.
---John on 5/27/11


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\\ Here is the problem. in 110 AD the word SUNDAY was not part of the vocabulary. I would like to know what the original said.\\

Of course not. That's because nobody spoke English!

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/27/11


--Cluny on 5/27/11
There is a slight problem with what you posted. Here is the problem. in 110 AD the word SUNDAY was not part of the vocabulary. I would like to know what the original said.
Then there is this problem: Meeting for comunion can be done ANY DAY OF THE WEEK, So the "so what" factor must be applied here. They could have met on sabbath for regular worship and sunday for communion. In some large SDA churches communion is ona different day than sabbath. There are people who come to sabbath service who would not want communion
---francis on 5/27/11


St. Justin Martyr (110 AD) and other early writers refer to Christians meeting on Sunday at oh dark thirty for the Eucharist, then going on about their usual business.

And this was BEFORE that nasty ole pope feller or even Constantine. Cluny

Agree both points. But Sunday was not a time set aside for worship alone.

The popes it turns out lied about a lot of things and early SDA and others thought they were telling the truth.

I need to look it up but in one of the early councils they argued about the proper books to teach out of on Sabbath. They had services on both days. Crusaders murdered Sabbath keeping Christians. So they were still around for a long time.
---Samuel on 5/27/11


//Too bad you can't give the URL.//

you can...e.g.

calvin-and-hobbes dot org / information / characters

(take out the spaces, replace dot with a period...and so forth)
---aka on 5/27/11


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francis, not all of the first Gentile Christians were Theoufovoumenoi (God-fearers).

And Christians were all expelled from the synagogues, as Christ prophecied, by 100 AD.

St. Justin Martyr (110 AD) and other early writers refer to Christians meeting on Sunday at oh dark thirty for the Eucharist, then going on about their usual business.

And this was BEFORE that nasty ole pope feller or even Constantine.

Christ is risen.
---Cluny on 5/27/11


-Cluny The questions I often ask are these:
1: If there were christians worshiping on a regular bases every sunday, why not ask the " God fearing Gentiles" to come to church next day. Why must they wait until next sabbath?
2: Why does paul say to Those "religious proselytes" ontinue in the grace of God. The popular false teaching is that if you keep the sabbath you have fallen from grace, yet here are non hebrews keeping the sabbath and not commanded otherwise
3: There are surely none jews in that congregation who believe in Jesus, why were they not meeting the next day with those gentiles?
---Francis on 5/27/11


\\So they were already keeping Sabbath. \\

That remains to be seen. Of course, it depends upon what you mean by "keeping the Sabbath," as it was NOT the only worship day among Jews, and still is not.

\\One Orthodox site I visited said it is okay to keep the seventh day Sabbath. Do you agree?\\

Too bad you can't give the URL. There are a lot of jurisdictions and groups that are either schismatic or self-starting, and have no real spiritual connection with the Orthodox Church.

However, many Orthodox parishes and monasteries, have Divine Liturgy and other services on Saturday as well.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/26/11


Thank you Cluny I have no problem with the different numbering it just gets some people confused.

Many Gentiles called GOD fearers were in the Synagogue every Sabbath when paul preached. They were among the first converts. So they were already keeping Sabbath. Paul never wrote not to keep the Sabbath. He wrote not to judge how people do so.

Why do you think the gospel writers wrote about how and the best way to keep sabbath if it was done away with?

Also there was a lot of argument about circumscion but none on the Sabbath. Why?

One Orthodox site I visited said it is okay to keep the seventh day Sabbath. Do you agree?
---Samuel on 5/26/11


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\\Which is second in the protestant list and part of the first in more orthodox. \\

Actually, Samuel, Protestants use the ORTHODOX numbering of the commandments.

Lutherans and Roman Catholics have another.

In any case, the numbering and divisions are NOT in the original.

And just because the Sabbath is MENTIONED does not mean that Gentile Christians are bound to it. In fact, traditional Judaism says that no Gentile is obliged to the Sabbath.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/24/11


The statment little children keep yourself from idols is not a repeat of the commandmnet on Idols. Which is second in the protestant list and part of the first in more orthodox.

So no not all of the Ten Commandments are repeated in the New Testament only 8. Now between the time JESUS died on the cross and the New Testament writers wrote them down. Were these Ten Commandments to be treat the same as most do the Sabbath commandment today?

The Sabbath is mentioned over 60 times in the New Testament. If it was done away with why talk about how to keep it?
---Samuel on 5/24/11


\\If someone asked you when can they attend mass, most likely you would say sunday.\\

As I've frequently told you, francis, I'm ORTHODOX, not Roman Catholic, and we don't use the word "mass."

And Acts 15 is specifically NOT binding Gentiles to the Saturday sabbath, so this is at least twice you're wrong in the same post.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/23/11


You don't actually think this is enjoining the Saturday sabbath upon Gentile Christians do you?
--Cluny on 5/23/11
YES

If someone asked you when can they attend mass, most likely you would say sunday. So you would say to them join us for services every sunday. This is what the majority of churches do. (nowadays some have mass everyday, and some wednesday and sunday.)

So here paul is saying to them that they must be in the synagogue every sabbath to hear the word of God.

For some reason or the other, they could not hear the word of God on sunday
---francis on 5/23/11


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\\Your post was useless
because all ten commandments are repeated in N\\

There is one curiously missing from being enjoined in the NT.

\\Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.\\

You don't actually think this is enjoining the Saturday sabbath upon Gentile Christians do you?

It isn't.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/23/11


---Cluny on 5/23/11

Your post was useless
because all ten commandments are repeated in NT

Romans 13:9 Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet,
Ephesians 6:2 Honour thy father and mother,
1 Timothy 6:1 that the name of God and [his] doctrine be not blasphemed.
John 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.

---francis on 5/23/11


\\the BIBLE says two things about that:
1:1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are NOT GRIEVOUS. \\

And Jesus's main two commanements are, "Love God. Love your neighbor."

\\Hebrews 8:8 For finding FAULT WITH THEM (NOT WITH THE LAW), he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: \\

The New Covenant was made in the Blood of Christ, which annulled the Old Law. Haven't you heard?

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/23/11


Samuel, we agree all sin. That no one can keep the whole law. The very reason we needed Christ who could keep the whole law without sinning. Now through Christ we do not walk alone. We have the Spirit to guide us and convict us when we sin.
---Mark_V.

amen. The HOLY SPIRIT alone is able to convict of sin and show truth.

Dear Francis good point. When a person loves others it is not hard to keep the last six because love goes beyound the written to the spirit which is much hardern.

The same is true of the first four. No idols means nothing in my life that comes before GOD not just no statues.
---Samuel on 5/23/11


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How much deceived must you be to believe that the commands of God is a YOKE?

Peter said it is ayoke:Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Was it really a yoke, and why were the father unable to bear it.

the BIBLE says two things about that:
1:1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are NOT GRIEVOUS.

Hebrews 8:8 For finding FAULT WITH THEM (NOT WITH THE LAW), he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

There are NO YOKES in the commandments of God.
---francis on 5/23/11


Samuel, we agree all sin. That no one can keep the whole law. The very reason we needed Christ who could keep the whole law without sinning. Now through Christ we do not walk along. We have the Spirit to guide us and convict us when we sin.
---Mark_V. on 5/23/11


Dear Mark

I do not want to put a yoke on believers in Christ. JESUS said take his yoke Matt. 11,29 which I believe we should do.

We all sin. I believe that when you follow the spirit you keep the letter also. I believe that all Christians should keep the Ten Commandments. I have argued against people who felt adultery was fine. But you do not believe that nor do I. I believe you agree with me on the other nine. So we talk about our one point of disagreement.

I most oppose the idea that all of the Ten Commandments are done away with and should not be followed.

Now we disagree on the Sabbath and some other points which is why we discuss and talk. Agape
---Samuel on 5/22/11


Samuel, if you agree 100% why do you still want to put a yoke on believers in Christ? That is what I do not understand. And really, you know you sin, unless you believe you are sinless. And you know everyone falls short of the glory of God, so why do you speak for the letter of the law, instead of the Spirit of the law? The answer of course is that you and others want to present "Saturday Sabbath" And no one has said anything against the Sabbath, but you want to make it a law for it to be only Saturday. Indicating by your passages that if someone does not do Saturday, they sin. When you know all sin and come short of the glory of God. But you do not care about those other sins, only the one of Saturday.
---Mark_V. on 5/20/11


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On the other hand Paul argued just as forcefully for the right use of the law, as an indicator of God's moral standards, as a restrain against evildoing, as a custodian to bring individuals to Christ, and as believers guide to godly living. That's the proper use of the law. It is not meant to put a yoke on those from the free woman.
---Mark_V. on 5/18/11

Amen to your whole post. I agree 100%.

I also agree that there are Judiazers today. But they are in many different churches.

I cannot save myself and nothing I can do adds anything to my salvation. The robe of Righteouness that JESUS gives me has no human works.
---Samuel on 5/19/11


Samuel //The discussion should be does the Sabbath apply to gentiles.

If the observance of the OT Sabbath was applicable to the Gentile believers, then you would most certain see it as a decree at the Jerusalem council Acts 15 as well as taught in the early church. But we see it not mandated in Acts 15 NOR do we see it taught by the early church fathers.

Can there be any other logical conclusion made than to conclude the Sabbath was not mandated to Gentile believers?
---leej on 5/19/11


\\Samuel, I too believe some laws are still in much effect, the moral laws.\\

You realize, of course, that this is NOT a distinction made by the Bible itself?

In other words, the Bible does not separate things into "moral laws," "ceremonial laws," and the like as some people do.

It knows just ONE law: The Law.

And if you doubt me, read Deut. 19. In the middle of a mixture of all different kinds of laws is the injunction, "Keep My decrees [or statutes, or however your favorite translation renders it]."

Either Christ fulfilled ALL the Law, or He has not.

In case 2, we are still in our sins.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/19/11


Samuel, I too believe some laws are still in much effect, the moral laws. The Judaizers were attempting to persuade the Galatian believers to mix salvation by grace with salvation by law, two mutually incompatible systems. Paul traced Israel's history, showing that believers from Abraham on had been saved by grace, and that no one ever could be saved by keeping the law, since the law was not meant to bring salvation. On the other hand Paul argued just as forcefully for the right use of the law, as an indicator of God's moral standards, as a restrain against evildoing, as a custodian to bring individuals to Christ, and as believers guide to godly living. That's the proper use of the law. It is not meant to put a yoke on those from the free woman.
---Mark_V. on 5/18/11


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Excellent question Mark

My understanding is that a large portion of the Old Testament laws were ceremonial and government and do not apply to us. That the health regulations such as washing our hands are good rules to follow but do not deal with salvation.
But I believe that the Ten Commandments are a set by themselves. Now we agree on nine of them being in effect. The discussion should be does the Sabbath apply to gentiles. Not a question of the laws not for us. But how to divide the word properly as to what applies and what does not.
Not a wall or axe approach but a careful study realizing that all scripture is profitable for doctrine.
---Samuel on 5/18/11


Samuel, when you mentioned Acts 15:5 you forgot to mention the rest of the context, the conflict over circumcision. The reason Paul and Barnabas was ask to go to Jerusalem. The converted sect of the Pharisees who believe were teaching Old Testament laws. After a meeting Peter said to them:
"Now therefore, why do you test God?" something similar as what we say to those from the SDA's. "by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?" They do what most of you do, put a yoke on believers in Christ. "But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they"
---Mark_V. on 5/18/11


That was his prime audience, to whom he was sent first and foremost, not Gentiles.
In Acts 15:5, some Pharisees who also believed stated that it was required of the new Gentile converts to be circumcised and that they be Commanded to keep the law of Moses. Nana

thank you for the complinet Nana. The entire law of Moses does not apply to gentiles. But all moral laws do and many help in understanding. For instance not moving marker stones is today not taking your neighbors land. Also not judging someone does on sabbath does not mean the sabbath is done away with. It should be treated just like the other ten Commandments.
---Samuel on 5/16/11


The gospel was written in all of the letters in the NT. Also in the places churches were established the gospel and teaching of Jesus along with the revelations he promised to give, such as Gentiles taking part in the kingdom of God.

The gospel is not about the life of Jesus but rather his sacrifice, resurrection, return to establish his kingdom and for all who believe to be part of it all. His teaching are how those who believe the gospel are to live.This is the word of Christ. So in knowing these things they can proceed in "...teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God.
---willa5568 on 5/14/11


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In plain writing, only a small subset of the law of Moses was prescribed to the new converts and for the bulk of it James declared, "that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God". Of course, Paul taught much more than was prescribed in Acts 15.

Col.2:16 "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:"
Now, Samuel is rather kind and neighbourly but some SDA's here are quite rude in imposing their TRADITIONS.
---Nana on 5/13/11


I would say the oral and epistle traditions of the NT, before it was all put together in one book
---francis on 5/13/11


Matt.23:1-3 "Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do, but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not."

I would think an SDA would know what it means "sit in Moses' seat"? Apparently not...
That was his prime audience, to whom he was sent first and foremost, not Gentiles.
In Acts 15:5, some Pharisees who also believed stated that it was required of the new Gentile converts to be circumcised and that they be Commanded to keep the law of Moses.
---Nana on 5/13/11


In other words, devotion to the Scriptures can get in the way of seeing Jesus. That's what happened to the Bible experts of 2000 years ago. Cluny

He is risen indeed.

I understand your point.

The problem was not the scriptures though. The Jews added many traditions on to scripture telling them what scripture meant and how to understand it. Their traditions were like scripture to them. These false man made traditions that JESUS fought against and their love of money and power was what stood in the way of them accepting truth.

In Luke 16:29,31 JESUS made a point of that if they truly listed to Moses then they would believe him. Jhn 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
---Samuel on 5/12/11


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The word of Christ, here is undoubtedly, what the risen Christ, revealed to our Apostle Paul.
---michael_e on 5/11/11


Nana, "John 6:63: "It is the spirit that quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."
I believe this is right.
Mark, "is referring to the endwelling of the Holy Spirit in the new believer which brings the word of revelation to all who believe. "
Agree!
---Christina on 5/11/11


Cluny, "let the word of Christ "dwell in you" richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs" is referring to the endwelling of the Holy Spirit in the new believer which brings the word of revelation to all who believe. "dwells in you" means "to live in" or "to be at home" and "richly" can be more fully rendered "abundantly."
Eph. 5:18,19, "And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation," but be filled with the Spirit," speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs..."
---Mark_V. on 5/11/11


Colossians 1:
Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints,
For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel,
Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world, and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth".

So, the "word of Christ" was the verbal tradition of the knowledge and the doctrines of Christ. Jesus himself said:

John 6:63: "It is the spirit that quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

Nada written.
---Nana on 5/10/11


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\\Jhn 5:39 Search the scriptures, for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. \\

The Greek can just as well be inidicative as well as imperative mood, Samuel, and some modern translations so render it. "You search the scriptures, for in them you THINK you have eternal life....."

In other words, devotion to the Scriptures can get in the way of seeing Jesus. That's what happened to the Bible experts of 2000 years ago.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/10/11


I believe, dear Cluny, you have forgotten the first few verses of Luke:

Luke 1:1-2 "Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile an account of the things accomplished among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and servants of the word"

There were records of some kind, either written or oral, that were being passed around before the Gospels were written.
---Mark_Eaton on 5/10/11


First of all they meant the scriptures that already existed.

Jhn 5:39 Search the scriptures, for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Like the Bereans the early Chrisitians searched the Bible to find JESUS. The Gospelas and letters of the New Testament helped to understand better what JESUS wanted.
---Samuel on 5/10/11


Colossians 3:16 > "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord."

I'd say "word of Christ" meant whatever Christ had Paul write and say, for one thing. So, this would include Colossians and "the epistle from Laodicea" (Colossians 4:16).

And I won't say scholars are reliable to say the Gospels weren't written yet. Maybe not in Greek, but first in Hebrew, Aramaic . . . and earlier copies were not found? The Apostles had and preached His words that could be passed on by mouth.
---Bill_willa6989 on 5/9/11


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Some the earliest Christian writings were not letters or gospels but just collections of quotations from Christ that people had remembered and recorded. Paul may have been referring to these as they predated his letters. What is now known as the Gospel of Thomas is such a collection It is just a collection of 113 random quotations of Christ. 114 is considered a spurious addition to the text by most scholars
---Blogger9211 on 5/9/11


We say that the name "JESUS" is a name above all names. The O.T. only foretold of the coming of a promised "MESSIAH" but did not identify the name JESUS. THE "word" that revealed 'GOD IN ENTIRETY' to humanity became FLESH (the "word of God" is JESUS Himself, not a BOOK).

The "word of Christ", also known as the "doctrine of Christ" (the 'JESUS scriptures, Gospel) explains to us GOD IN COMPLETENESS/ENTIRETY.

Colossians 2:9
"For in him the whole fulness of deity dwells bodily".

2 John 1:9
"does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God, he who abides in the doctrine has both the Father and the Son".
---more_excellent_way on 5/9/11


\\ Jesus is the Word made flesh, so when you read the Bible (O.T. and N.T.) you read Jesus.\\

You don't actually think "The Word was made flesh" is a metaphor for saying that Jesus is the perfect embodiment of everything in the Bible, do you?

In any case, lest anyone be offended, I was unable to put the entire verse because of space limitations and still ask my question.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/9/11


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