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Beginning Of The End Times

Our we in the beginning of the end of times?

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 ---RonRonda on 5/11/11
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Dear Elder I am used to get sarcasm also. It is still not the correct responce.

The rapture is the Second coming it is not two seperate events.

Now Revelations states every eye shall see Him. The ones to be raptured see him and the dead come out of the graves to see him. So do you teach there are two resurrections from the dead? How are people saved with no HOLY SPIRIT? The seventh weeks of Daniel are over and dispensationalism is not a valid means of interpreting scripture.
---Samuel on 5/19/11


In Hebrews when it speaks of Enoch it says he was translated (transfered from one place to another).
---willa5568 on 5/19/11

What you do not seem to read is this:

Heb 11:5 "By faith Enoch was taken up SO THAT HE WOULD NOT SEE DEATH, and he was not found because God took him up, for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God"

So unless you read something into this passage that is not there, Enoch did not see death. This says to me that Enoch did not die the way you or I die. God had a different purpose for Enoch and it involved him not seeing death. I offered one possible explanation for that purpose.
---Mark_Eaton on 5/19/11


Pastor Herb,

explain where scripture teaches we will be taken up and no one will see it happen?
If Jesus was taken up visible in His resurrected body and was seen, how is it that we would be any different?

I never said no one would see it happen. It happens very quickly, if you bat your eyes you will miss it. People will see the results, open graves, people missing, wrecked cars but guess what? God will send a strong delusion that you will believe a lie like alian abduction.

As far as Jesus decending, I decended the stairs from up stairs to the main level but until I decide to go further I haven't I haven't reached the basement.
---Pastor_Herb on 5/19/11


This is all spiritual language.
---RICHARDC on 5/18/11

Aha. You have finally revealed yourself.

When we read The Revelation we all must make a decision. How do we read and interpret what we are reading? You have said that the passage is "spiritual" which I am guessing means it is symbolic or poetic. You are saying that nothing is as it seems or everything means somthing else. You are saying nothing is to be taken literally.

I do not interpret The Revelation in your way. I interpret it literally, unless something does not make sense. Then and only then, do I see something as symbolic. Or in looking at the language of the passage, interpret it metaphorically.

I read the whole Bible in this manner.
---Mark_Eaton on 5/19/11


In Hebrews when it speaks of Enoch it says he was translated (transfered from one place to another). It is obvious because of the witness of scripture he did not go to heaven. In the Greek there is a definite article that cannot be applied to anything but the word death.
---willa5568 on 5/19/11

Heb. 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death,

Doesn't sound like he died to me. Maybe you need a KJV
---Pastor_Herb on 5/19/11




Mark Eaton,

In Hebrews when it speaks of Enoch it says he was translated (transfered from one place to another). It is obvious because of the witness of scripture he did not go to heaven. In the Greek there is a definite article that cannot be applied to anything but the word death. So it would be speaking of a specific death. 80 yrs. after Enoch was translated Noah was born. This is "the" death spoken of, the flood.And also God spared him from seeing the evil that would fill the earth.

"ALL go unto one place, ALL are of the dust, and ALL turn to dust" all Man and all beast
---willa5568 on 5/19/11


CN-John wrote, "All believers went through Tribulation. Why should YOU get a pass. (Oh I fogot you did the 1 minute "Get out of Hell Ticket" "siners" prayer)"
As I have stated before tribulation is not the Great Tribulation/Jacobs trouble that will come upon the earth, Matt 24:21-22.
But, John you have convinced me. I totally believe that YOU will go through the Great Tribulation. Of course if you pray that one minute prayer in your heart, that you speak of, you could miss it too.
---Elder on 5/19/11


Pastor Herb,

explain where scripture teaches we will be taken up and no one will see it happen?
If Jesus was taken up visible in His resurrected body and was seen, how is it that we would be any different?
The idea of the rapture stems from one verse, Thessalonians 4:17. But in the previous verse it says the Lord shall descend, which is what the angel told the disciples "This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will a come in the same". Also read the first chapter of 2Thessalonians. Here's what it says in verse 7,10," to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels...when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints"
---willa5568 on 5/19/11


So the wheat and the chaff are put through the tribul?
---micha9344 on 5/18/11


Mark Easton 5/8/11 - I think your way off - What thoses verses are about is false gospels - satan taken over the churches with false gospels - nobody is going to get visible marks - This is all spiritual language. God chosen are give there mark - and satan his mark, but you can'nt see them, It's the separation sheep and goats.
---RICHARDC on 5/18/11




PRE-TRIB HERETICS PLEASE ANSWER THIS QUESTION

THE GREAT COMMISSION ...

1) Do we witness until the coming of Christ?

OR...

2) Do we witness until 7 years before the coming of Christ?
---John on 5/18/11

We witness until we are we are no loger here, after the rapture we won't be here. The hundred and 44 thousand will do the witnessing.

And then "ALL" the peoples of the earth will.. see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven"
NO SECRET RAPTURE!

"ALL" the peoples of the earth... The raptured won't be here, we will not be part of the earth.
---Pastor_Herb on 5/18/11


Tribulation is for believers ONLY! Wrath is for the wicked.

It comes from the word Tribul. A sled used to separate the Wheat from the Chaff. (A testing of Faith)

PRE-TRIB HERETICS PLEASE ANSWER THIS QUESTION

THE GREAT COMMISSION ...

1) Do we witness until the coming of Christ?

OR...

2) Do we witness until 7 years before the coming of Christ?

MATT 24...

And then "ALL" the peoples of the earth will.. see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven"
NO SECRET RAPTURE!

All believers went through Tribulation. Why should YOU get a pass.

(Oh I fogot you did the 1 minute "Get out of Hell Ticket" "siners" prayer)
---John on 5/18/11


POOPSEY 3/8/11 - GOD pour his wrath out on a unbelieving world not the church ? ( I think your talking about the Buildings and the people that go there )

1 PETER 4:17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the House of GOD,and if it begins with us first,what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of GOD ?

2 TIMOTHY 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires,because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers.

MARK 13,2 And JESUS answered and said to him, Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone shall be left upon another, that shall not be throw down.
---RICHARDC on 5/18/11


Samuel, trouble, persecution and tribulation is different than Gods judgment falling on someone. Not a one of these people went through or was part of any of Gods judgment. Jesus dying on the cross is a different issue also. He was crucified from the foundation of the earth to satisfy Gods wrath on sin so that you and I could live. My examples are not to lead to the fact of a pretrib snatching away. The critics said there was no such thing as a rapture so I gave examples to prove there were/are. You will also notice that my sarcasm only comes after I receive it from others.
---Elder on 5/18/11


Enoch walked with God: and he was not, for God took him (where did He take him? not heaven only Jesus has entered heaven, Enoch was still a descent on Adam)
---willa5568 on 5/17/11

Seems to me you want to read INTO the Scriptures.

Gen 5:24 "Enoch walked with God, and he was not, for God took him"

The verb "took" can be translated as snatched, seized, taken away, captured, or stolen from.

Where do you see Enoch's death in this? I also see this walking as literal and not "living right" for God.

I also understand the meaning of Hebrews 9:27 and I think you have focused on only one part of the verse. Have you answered the question WHEN is the appointed time for a man to die?
---Mark_Eaton on 5/18/11


Buying and selling have to do with bring the word of GOD
---RICHARDC on 5/17/11

Sorry, your definition does not fit the context of the passage, which is:

Rev 13:17 "and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name"

I do not think that the Beast will allow only those who taken his mark to be able to buy and sell the Word of God, or even to understand the Word of God.

The Revelation passage is about commerce and everyday life. The Beast wants total domination of the world. He wants to be God. He wants everyone on the planet to have to come to him for your daily bread.
---Mark_Eaton on 5/18/11


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Rhonda Are you an SDA? You deny the trinity and hell?poopsey

I am a Seventh day Adventist we believe in the Trinity and we believe that the wicked will burn up in hell.
---Samuel on 5/18/11


Rhonda: I understand scripture perfectly fine so no need to be condescending.

Are you an SDA? You deny the trinity and hell? That is heresy. You believe all those that worship on Sunday take the Mark of the Beast? That was invented by a human and is not in the Bible.

The rapture is in the Bible. The tribulation is meant for lost Israel and not the Church. God pours his wrath out on an unbelieving world not on his church.

When Christ comes down prior to the millennial reign he comes with the saints and angels so they were already there with him in heaven.

The dead in Christ are raised first and then all remaining believer's meet the Lord in the air. This is not the same as when Christ comes down to rule.
---poopsey on 5/18/11


MARK - EATON - 5/17/11 Buy and Sell what does it mean ?

Buying and selling have to do with bring the word of GOD

PROVERBS 23:23 Buy the truth, and do not sell it, Also wisdom and instruction and understanding.
---RICHARDC on 5/17/11


Mark Eaton,

1 Corinthians 15:22 "For as in Adam ALL die..."
Hebrews 9:27 "it is appointed unto men once to die..."
John 3:13 "no one hath ascended into heaven, but... the Son of man"

when the Lord was about to take Elijah up to heaven( Transliteration: Shamayim
- Definition:
1. heaven, heavens, sky
a. visible heavens, sky
1. as abode of the stars
2. as the visible universe, the sky, atmosphere, etc) by a whirlwind (does not mean with God but moved because elisha was to take his place)
Enoch walked with God: and he was not, for God took him (where did He take him? not heaven only Jesus has entered heaven, Enoch was still a descent on Adam)
---willa5568 on 5/17/11


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If one has read the bible from the beginning to the end, he will find that they both have died.
---Steveng on 5/16/11

Please show BCV for the deaths of both Enoch and Elijah.

Please do not show the BCV of these men being taken into heaven by God. They were alive when that happened. Please show me only their death.
---Mark_Eaton on 5/17/11


Rev 9:4 "They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any green plant or any tree, but only those people who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads."(God keeps those who are his from His wrath just as He did Lot, the children of Israel in Egypt...)

I would have to agree with those who say we are in the end times and have been since Christs ascent to heaven.
---willa5568 on 5/17/11


Christians will have to grow, hunt and chop wood etc. to survive. They would need to adhere to the early church ways of sharing to survive.
---John on 5/16/11

I am always amazed at the answers that come when we begin discussing the end times. Such as this answer.

When The Revelation says "buy and sell", what does this mean? In common terms, this means to "live in society". It is impossible to live in society without buying and selling. Even farmers need to go to market to buy seed and sell their produce. Farmers do not grow everything they need, they sell what they have and buy what they need.

The people of Jesus time would have known what this means.
---Mark_Eaton on 5/17/11


Well elder I do not understand your list as being those who removed during trouble. Elijah was indeed taken to heaven. But that was after having to be persecuted and putting Elisha in charge. JESUS died on the cross. Lot was removed from the city but had to live in the wilderness. The children of Israel had the plagues fall around them just like I believe will happen to the church.

So not one of your example leads to a pretrib rapture. You seem to reply more with sarcasm and attacks then Bible scripture. Why?
---Samuel on 5/17/11


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I agree with Cluny, we've been in the beginning of the end since the ascension.
---larry on 5/17/11


Rhonda: You are promoting heresy. Jesus did not have to qualify to replace Satan
*****

no you simple promote LIES about heresy due to inability to comprehend BASIC Scripture and following lying false ministers repeating their misunderstanding

If Christ was not TEMPTED by Satan than it is your ministers version that has you holding on to an empty lie

if Christ did not OVERCOME sin and Satan YOU by your ministers LIE have no Savior

I believe on EVERY word from Holy Scripture ...Christ lived a sinless life and was not TEMPTED by Satan and he OVERCAME the world and its god now sitting at right hand of Father in Heaven waiting to rule the earth at His return
---Rhonda on 5/17/11


"Was he (Noah) removed from the face of the Earth..." Ignatius
Well, if he had not been he would have drowned huh? He was caught up above the judgment. Heaven is not the issue removal/protection is.
"Give one example from the Bible...."
Elijah, Lot, The Children of Israel, Jesus Himself but you don't really want that.
You don't want to be confused with the facts. God said He would keep the Church/Bride of Christ from this hour of temptation. Did he lie or is it you? Those who read this can figger it out too bad you can't.


---Elder on 5/17/11


(1) Israel has not returned to the LORD, by obeying Jesus (Isaiah 51:11).
(2) Jesus says there will be a tribulation unlike any other "ever" (Matthew 24:21), and "Immediately after the tribulation of those days" (Matthew 24:29-31) Jesus will appear and gather His "elect".
(3) Paul says Jesus will resurrect us "at the last trumpet", in 1 Corinthians 15:52. And Jesus says that "immediately after the tribulation of those days" His gathering of the "elect" will be with "the great sound of a trumpet", He says in Matthew 24:31. This is the last trumpet that Jesus talks about, Himself, and it is "Immediately after the tribulation of those days".
---Bill_willa6989 on 5/17/11


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"According to Acts 2, we've been in the Last Days since the Descent of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/11/11"

best answer
---Christina on 5/16/11


LeeJ, Point well taken! I actually agree with your post more than mine.

No, I'm not a survivalist nor a member of the LSD cult
---John on 5/16/11


Could I clarify something?

Just because I reject pre-mill pre-trib dispensationalism as untrue and unbiblical (which it is) does NOT mean I do not believe that Christ will not return, or the prophecies will not be clearly fulfilled.

But remember that 2000 years ago, the Bible experts of the day had it worked out what Messiah would do when He came--complete with 4 color charts. (j/k).

The Messiah DID come, did NOT follow their schedules, and so the Bible experts rejected Him.

"Now these things are for our instruction......"

The correct scenario for the Parousia is given in the classical creedal statements.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/16/11


//Christians will have to grow, hunt and chop wood etc. to survive. They would need to adhere to the early church ways of sharing to survive.

Maybe you would consider joining the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints as they teach one need store food and other essentials for any coming disaster.

End times scenarios as just that - scenarios = possible situations= an imagined sequence of possible events, or an imagined set of circumstances.

I hestiate to join those who would believe in the Mark of the Beast, Anti-Christ, etc. believing that it is more beneficial to live each day as ones last on earth and leave the speculation up to those who have made the big bucks with books like Left Behind,etc.

---leej on 5/16/11


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"...you rejected truth than as now." (Elder)

I do not reject the Truth found in Scriptures. I reject your naive fable of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church.

"Since the judgment of God was on the earth in the form of water where was Noah? He was lifted above the earth and the judgment."

Was he removed from the face of the Earth and taken to Heaven (as your fable entails)? Yes or No.

Give one example from the Bible where God "raptured" a group of people to heaven before He released his wrath and judgment, please. Can you, Elder?

Face it Elder, a Pre-Tribulation Rapture is neither necessary nor taught in Scriptures or the Fathers.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 5/16/11


Mima,

The Early Christians suffered persecution/death from their enemies. They were willing to suffer for Christ. Our Blessed Paul counted it a blessing to suffer for Christ. Throughout Church History, and even now, godly Man and Women suffered persecution/death for their Faith. They laid down their life for Christ. There were ten most brutal and indiscriminate massacres of the Christians but "the blood of martyrs was the seed of the Church." The Church triumphed, because it is the Divine Institution. Why would that change and the End of Times?

The Fact that you, Mima, are not willing to suffer for Christ' sake shows that you are not a Matured Christian.

Christ is Risen!

In IC.XC.,
---IGnatius on 5/16/11


Mark_Eaton: "Did Elijah die? Did Enoch die? "

If one has read the bible from the beginning to the end, he will find that they both have died. The question you asked comes alive when a christian learns the bible a verse here and a verse there. Would you read a novel skipping chapters?
---Steveng on 5/16/11


Mima, your premise is wrong! The key word is "BUY".

Christians will have to grow, hunt and chop wood etc. to survive. They would need to adhere to the early church ways of sharing to survive.

It will be the worst Tribulation of all believers.
Remember we had Grace in the NT.

In the OT G-d would just strike you, family, and sons/daughter dead, or cast you out to become slaves of your worst enemies if you stepped out of line.

That was their tribulations, so where ours. So far it been pretty easy (for some).

Our is the Great Tribulation. Many will weaken and take the Mark. FEW WILL SURVIVE TO THE END AND FEW WILL BE CHOSEN!

Just The Elect!
---John on 5/16/11


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mima,

how will the 144,000 make it through?

This is something I would like to understand please. Are those who believe there will be a rapture saying Christians will just disappear? Or will Jesus come close to the earth but not touching it and we will meet him in the air and every Christian around the world will float to him from their continent?

The angel in Acts 1 told the disciples in the same way Jesus was taken up (which they saw) is the same way he would return. His return will be visible and so will the resurrection, you can not get around that.
---willa5568 on 5/16/11


How did the church go through the Roman Persecution when you had to pray to the Emperor or die? How did Protestants go the persecutions where millions died for their faith?

Have you ever read Foxes book of Martyrs?

How did Israel survive when the Egyption calvary was about to crush them? How did Azarish, Mischael and Hanniah survive when they were tossed into a fiery furnace?

If GOD wills He can provide away. How did the children of Israel eat while in the wilderness?
---Samuel on 5/16/11


No one in history was ever raptured. Jesus himself said no one has ascended into heaven.
---Steveng on 5/15/11

Tisk, Tisk.

Did Elijah die? Did Enoch die?

Jesus said that no one has ascended into heaven (himself) but two have been taken into heaven by God.

My expectation is that the two witnesses in Revelation will be Enoch and Elijah and that they will finally die as all men do.
---Mark_Eaton on 5/16/11


The prediction is the rapture will ocurr on 21 May.

Reported::::

This outbreak of rapture fever originated with Harold Camping, 89, a California-based Bible teacher who says he figured out the date of Jesus return by studying the book of Daniel and other biblical texts. Never mind that Jesus said no one would know the timing of His return (see Matt. 24:36). And never mind that Camping has a bad track recordhe previously set Sept. 6, 1994, as the date for the Apocalypse. Many gullible Christians are still willing to trust Campings instincts.

Will Camping create another Adventist religion? LOL
---leej on 5/16/11


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A rapture(or catching away) will be a necessity because of this fact.
Without the Mark of the beast no one will be able to buy food, gasoline, pay rent or mortgage payments, pay taxes on property, pay for medical treatment, prescription drugs or anything else. In short, without the Mark, no one will be able to survive very long-. And all who take the mark of the beast are going to hell!
So how pray tell can the church go through the tribulation?
---mima on 5/16/11


I do find it interesting that in Revelation 10:7 which is at the LAST or 7th trump, the Mystery of God is complete...The Mystery of God is according to Colossians 2 the Body/ Church.

I also find it interesting that God's WRATH..the bowls of wrath begin Revelation 11.

Also too, the last trump or 7th trump is also stated in 1 Corinthians 15...end of chapter. 1st Cor 15 also state as well.1 Corinthians 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump:( the 7th trump in Rev 10 is the last trump..) for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

It appears, (yet just one idea here), that the Church will indeed be gone by Rev 11.
---kathr4453 on 5/16/11


Matt 24 is about the 2nd coming.
Jn 17:15 is about Jesus' departure/(rapture). He prayed about His disciples remaining to complete their duties. They are all gone now. So was Jesus' prayer answered or not?
Jn 6:39-54 & 11:24 is about the 1st Resurrection in the last day
Jn 12:48 is about The Great White Throne Judgment.
Dan 12:1-3 is about the end of the Tribulation and the 1st Resurrection.
None of John's post are about the catching away/protection from the judgment of God upon the wicked.
John has proven again in his copy and paste post that he doesn't have a clue about what he is saying. It is not a case but his mind that is closed.
---Elder on 5/16/11


The rapture is an event that will take place sometime in the future. Jesus will come in the air, catch up the Church from the earth.
No where in prophecy of the 2nd coming is this mentioned.
Some say we meet him in the air and make a u-turn to escort Christ back to earth, as if He needed an escort.
We are the ones who need the escort.
To Paul was revealed several things never mentioned before(Rom 16:25)
Paul, is the only one who writes of the catching away, 1Thess 4 & ICor 15. Something else he mentions, that no one else does is the Church, the body of Christ
---michael_e on 5/16/11


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John is correct about Margaret McDonald. This I believe is based on a vision she had. If I remember correctly it was in the 1800's that this doctrines was established. Before that you will not find anyone who teaches a pre-tribulation resurrection, not rapture, because the dead will be raised making three resurrections.
---willa5568 on 5/16/11


PRE-TRIB RAPTURE IS A HERESY!!!

It was started (19th century) by a Witch named Margaret McDonald(Google it)passed to John Darby then to John Scoffield who brought it to America.

TRIBULATION IS FOR BELIEVERS! WRATH IS FOR THE WICKED! All believers have gone through tribulation. Why would G-d give "YOU" a pass??? It comes from the word Tribul. A sled use to seperate the Wheat from the Chaff. A testing of faith.

NOW HEAR WHAT JESUS SAID...

MATT 24:29-31.."AFTER the tribulation"
JOHN 17:15 "Do NOT take them out of the world..
JOHN 6:39-40,44,54 "On the LAST day"
JOHN 11:24 "on the LAST day"
JOHN 12:48 "on the LAST day"
DAN 12:1-3

CASE CLOSED!!!
---John on 5/15/11


STEVEN 5/15/11 - Both wheat and tares harvest same time ?

MATTHEW 13:30 Let both grow together untill the harvest, and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together First The Tares and bind them in bundles to Burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.

Tares are bind together in the churches being set up for judgment day - This is, Judgment begins at the house of GOD, Wheat are not going to be in churches that are apostate - fallen away - Refer 2 THESSALONIANS 2:3 - Wheat gets caught up - Tares will be destroy -
---RICHARDC on 5/15/11


at the LAST TRUMPET. For THE TRUMPET WILL SOUND, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

Thessalonians4:16 For the Lord himself SHALL DESCEND FROM HEAVEN WITH A SHOUT,WITH THE VOICE OF THE ARCHANGEL AND WITH THE TRUMP OF GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first,
Matthew 16:27,24:4-51,25:31-46
Mark 14:24-27,Luke 21:27-28,Thessalonians 5:1-3,2Thessalonians 2:1-12,2Peter 3:11-14,Revelations 1:7

Acts 1:11 "why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, WILL COME IN THE SAME WAY as you saw him go into heaven.

no mention of a rapture, we take part in the first resurrection at Christ second coming. There's only two resurrections not three.
---willa5568 on 5/15/11


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//willa5568, how many times does God have to say something for it to be true? Do you think it is three times?//

No to the last question. For the first I said were does it plainly say there will be a rapture before the first resurrection and show me 3 verses or how about one then. I know the verses used, but they do not agree with the rest of scripture which talks of Christ return, if you say it means there is a rapture.
I have already put a post with tons of scripture speaking of Christs second coming, not a rapture. I challange you to see if these things are so not trying to prove you are right, that is how I came to understand this truth.
---willa5568 on 5/15/11


"willa5568, how many times does God have to say something for it to be true? Do you think it is three times?
---Elder on 5/15/11"

The problem is that God never said anything of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. Scriptures doesn't teach it. The Fathers of the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and so on, never taught it. The only thing that Holy Tradition (Scriptures, the Ancient Liturgies, the Fathers, the Holy Icons, etc) teach is the Second Coming of Christ, which is the Rapture of the Church and it will occur after the Tribulation.

You, my friend, have been greatly duped.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 5/15/11


Ignatius, I've gone over this before for you but you rejected truth than as now. Since the judgment of God was on the earth in the form of water where was Noah? He was lifted above the earth and the judgment.

Steveng what about the Bema Judgment and the Great White Throne Judgment? Is that two judgments or what? Or do you know about them?
---Elder on 5/16/11


//God has always removed His people before He released His wrath and judgment on the wicked.// So if ya don't go that'll tell ya something. But, you won't get that message in the Age of Endurance if ya didn't get it in the Age of Grace.
---Elder on 5/15/11//

Amen Elder,it is an age of grace event.
---michael_e on 5/16/11


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WILLA 5568 - Rapture - is of coarse not in the Bible - it's taken from the words caught up.

1 THESSSAlONIANS 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the LORD in the air ,And thus we shall alway be with the LORD

How many last Trumpets - Now trumpet is symbolic for the word of GOD.

ISAIAH 58:1 Cry aloud spare not,Lift up your voice like a trumpet,Tell my people their transgression, And the house of jacob their sins.

( Alot of people think the final trumpet is being blown right Now )
---RICHARDC on 5/15/11


Part I: This is a frivolous debate, but let's reason this out.

First, There is only One Judgment Day, not two. If people are raptured at the beginning, judgment has been pronounced, because the Christians were taken and the evil people left on Earth. But it is written that both the tares and the wheat will be harvested at the same time.

Second, there is nothing new under the sun. No one in history was ever raptured. Jesus himself said no one has ascended into heaven. Neither Moses nor Elijah will be the witnesses. God even says that he buried Moses in a valley. I suggest reading a phrase dictionary telling the many ways to say that a person kicked the bucket.
---Steveng on 5/15/11


Christians will be deceived.

The concept of a rapture is a creation of Satan, for those who believe in the rapture will receive the Mark of the Beast. Here's how it will play out: "christians" will receive the Mark of the Beast not knowing that it is the Mark of the Beast because they would have been raptured before the Mark of the Beast is issued.
---Steveng on 5/15/11


"God has always removed His people before He released His wrath and judgment on the wicked."
-Elder

Removed where, Elder? In case of Noah and His Family, He did not "raptured" them out, but instead, God protected them from his wrath and judgment on the wicked while them remaining on Earth (Genesis 6-7). In the case of Israel, he did not raptured them out either.

Give a example in the Bible where God "raptured" a group of people from the face of the Earth when he executed his wrath/judgment.

The Pre-tribulation Rapture Ideology is just a figment of your imagination. It is not Biblical, and the Ancient Christians did not believed it.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 5/15/11


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James_L you can read the whole account of the pagues in the Book of Exodus. Take special note that in all of the plagues, fleas, boils, water to blood, ect all of Gods children were protected and/or removed from each plague. During the last plage of death of the first born all of them were safe within the house prepared by the applied Blood.
You may also note that in the Book of the Revelation, during the Great Tribulation, some of the plagues are repeats of these.


willa5568, how many times does God have to say something for it to be true? Do you think it is three times?
---Elder on 5/15/11


\\God has always removed His people before He released His wrath and judgment on the wicked.\\
---Elder on 5/15/11


I could be wrong, but I think I read a story in the bible.

I think it was about some people who were slaves in Egypt.

I think they were told to put some blood on their doorways, so that when God brought the last of the judgement against the Egyptians, those who had the blood on their doorways would be passed over and judgement would not come to their house. Then after the judgement came, God led them out of Egypt

I don't remember the story all that well. Do you know the story I'm talking about, Elder? My memory is a little fuzzy.
---James_L on 5/15/11


I would like someone to find three verses saying there WILL be a rapture, not they imply that there will be.

There are a great deal of scripture saying plainly it will be when Christ returns at his second coming.

By the way how many last trumpets will there be?
---willa5568 on 5/15/11


\\Pastor Herb is right. \\

No, he isn't.

\\There is a rapture of the saints and it is pre-tribulation.\\

No, there isn't.

\\ Not enough space to describe here but it is biblical.\\

No, it isn't.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/15/11


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PRETRIBULATION ? - Start with REVELATION 7,4 - 144,000 number that repersents of all the people save up till the time of the tribulaton,

REVELATION 7:9 AFTER THESE THINGS I looked, and behold a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations,tribes, people, tougues, standing before the throne and before the lamb, clothed with white robes,with plams branches in there hands,

REVELATION 7:14 And I said to him Sir, you know , So he said to me, These are the ones who comes out of the Great tribulation, and wash their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb,

( A great multitude goes through the tribulation and are save , And the May 21 study says it comes to an end this Saturday)
---RICHARDC on 5/15/11


I wish that Elder would once and for all get off of the un-scriptural accusation that those who do not believe as he does, are somehow not saved. Please Elder, show me a single verse that says that our Rapture-Tribulation understanding is a SALVATION ISSUE??

Now however, I find myself in the unusual position of totally agreeing with Pastor Herb on when the End Times started, and when they will end. Even though we do not agree on the timing of the Rapture, his reasoning and understanding is Biblically sound.

I believe that the Rapture occurs at the Last Trump with the Rapture of the Two Witnesses, and just before the Bowls of Gods wrath are poured out. However, this is not a Salvation Issue!
---Lutherist on 5/15/11


Pastor Herb is right. There is a rapture of the saints and it is pre-tribulation. Not enough space to describe here but it is biblical.

Rhonda: You are in error. There is more than one place where it is stated that a new earth will be created.

Isaiah 65 NIV
17 Behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth.

2 Peter 3 NIV
But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.

Revelation 21 NIV
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.
---poopsey on 5/15/11


Rhonda: You are promoting heresy. Jesus did not have to qualify to replace Satan. Satan is an usurper. He was cast down to the earth as a judgment since he is a fallen angelic being, previously the anointed cherub. And Jesus has already conquered death when he was resurrected.

1 John 3:8 NIV
The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devils work.

Hebrews 2:14 NIV
14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death that is, the devil

Revelation 1:18 NIV
18 I am the Living One, I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.
---poopsey on 5/15/11


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RHONDA - 5/14/11 - God will not destroy world ?

2 PETER 3:10 But the day of the LORD will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat: both the earth and the works that are in it will be burn up.

REVELATION 21:1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, Also there was no more sea.

Not One scripture supports time stops ?

REVELATION 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven,and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are,and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer.
---RICHARDC on 5/15/11


The deception of Anti-Christ is all ready at work. One issue he likes to use is, "There is no Rapture and all Christians will go through the Great Tribulation."
When those who call themself Christian end up in the Great Tribulation they will think they belong there. Therefore, they will not seek Christ to be Saved.
Many on here are right, for themselves,.... there will not be a Rapture for them!
God has always removed His people before He released His wrath and judgment on the wicked. So if ya don't go that'll tell ya something. But, you won't get that message in the Age of Endurance if ya didn't get it in the Age of Grace.
---Elder on 5/15/11


RHONDA 5/14/11 - Nothing in scripture describe the end of time ?
****

like my post said NOTHING describes the end of time

you are simply DECEIVED by false ministers of the world who spread doom of the end of the world

The Father in Heaven will not destroy the world HE will destroy sin ...the earth will simply be cleansed of sin

like it was cleansed during the days of Noe

or do you believe time stopped during the days of Noe and that was another earth?

it is the END OF AGE

not one scripture supports the end of time no matter how hard one implies and repeats what is given to them by lying mortal men
---Rhonda on 5/14/11


You're just setting yourself up to be deceived by Antichrist.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/13/11

How can I be deceived by the antichrist if I ain't here? I will go in the rapture and you will be here when the antichrist comes. So if anyone is deceived by the antichrist it is you.
---Pastor_Herb on 5/14/11


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RHONDA 5/14/11 - Nothing in scripture describe the end of time ?

LUKE 17:26 And as it was in the day of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the son of man, They ate they drank,they married wives,they were given in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.

( It's pretty much bussiness as usual, people going about normal activity, Noah knew the time of the end,He was a preacher of righteousness, so he had to be telling people a flood was coming. And it going to be same at the time of the end)
---RICHARDC on 5/14/11


nothing in Holy Scripture describes the end of time

seeing The Father in Heaven and Christ have always existed man truly has no concept of TIME

Holy Scripture describes in detail the END of AGE

the AGE of man ruling himself in this gods world 2Corin 4:4

the end of age BEGAN at the death of Christ when He was qualified to REPLACE Satan

at Christs return He will defeat death and end the AGE of man ruling himself

our time may very well experience the final birth pains ...however 1/3 of Holy Scripture is prophecy of which majority of it has not happened yet ...there is a ways to go...
---Rhonda on 5/14/11


Dear Cluny we agree no pretrib rapture.

Now I know the teaching of a latter rain has many different interpretaions but I did not mean the HOLY SPIRIT is not active and working right now. So yes the HOLY SPIRIT is still working.

The latter rain as I understand it is when the HOLY SPIRIT comes with extra power to have one final push to spread the Gospel just before the second coming. We can disagree on this with no problem.

I agree with you the HOLY SPIRIT is active now.
---Samuel on 5/14/11


herb,

I have to agree with cluny. The witness of scripture does not speak of a rapture and especially not a secret rapture where people just disappear. The verses used to suggest the pre-trib are vague if you take them to mean this.
---willa5568 on 5/14/11


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"There will be no outpouring of the Holy Spirit after the rapture."
Pastor_Herb on 5/13/11

What are you waiting for then...?
---Nana on 5/14/11


\\If you think it is bad now, wait till after the rapture. For those of you who don't believe in the rapture and plan of staying here after the rapture consider 1Thess 5:9 God hath not appointed us to wrath\\

There's no such thing as a pre-trib rapture, Herb.

You're just setting yourself up to be deceived by Antichrist.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/13/11


We are in the end of the last days, not the begining. The last days started with the church age and will continue till the rapture. The Holy Spirit came at the beginning of the church age and will go with the rapture. There will be no outpouring of the Holy Spirit after the rapture.

If you think it is bad now, wait till after the rapture. For those of you who don't believe in the rapture and plan of staying here after the rapture consider 1Thess 5:9 God hath not appointed us to wrath
---Pastor_Herb on 5/13/11


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