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Cornelius Works Got Salvation

Did Cornelius' fear of God, much alms giving, and much prayer, get God to show him him how to be saved? In other words, did his works bring salvation to him?

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 ---mima on 5/12/11
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Kathr, there is no false statements coming from me concerning God. You cannot contain Him even if your brain says you can. He is Spirit and Omnipresent, He is in every believers hearts and minds. Nowhere have I said He was not. You again twist what I said. The Holy Spirit is a gift to us. God gave us His Spirit as a pledge (2 Cor. 5:5 and 1 Cor. 2:12). The indwelling brings the prsence of God into the life of every believer. My argument with you was that He did so also in many cases in the Old Testament, you said He didn't. I gave you Scriptures and you argue against them.
---Mark_V. on 6/7/11


kathren, your mind is very corrupt. It is filled with evil towards not only Mark but towards others who do not agree with you. I also need to tell you to repent of that evil concept you carry within you. If you speak of the Spirit in you, why don't you show the love of the Spirit? What gets you so angry you have to resort to those actions? Repent and be saved.
---Daniel on 6/7/11


You've done nothing that is unforgivable though, Mark.

I have a deep feeling that you're hiding from something in your past. Maybe Calvinism helps you deal with the fact that your son has denied Christ. I know I would ache for my own children if that were the case. I would wonder if I may have led them astray somehow by not being a good enough example for them. None of us are perfect parents, but you cant ever give up hope. Love hopes in all things.

People with atheist parents have accepted Jesus Christ. Don't give up on the lost and assume they dont believe because God didnt "choose" them to. The Spirit is here to convict the "world" of unbelief! (John 16:9)
---An_old_blogger on 6/6/11


MarkV, You make many false statements, and when pointed out, WITH SCRIPTURE you don't look at the scriptures posted and comment on them. You completely ignore the subject at hand and turn the conversation to something else.

MarkV, you are a false teacher. Your statement clearly states you do not believe God's word.

You want to be a teacher and lead others, but where are you leading them?

You HAVE insulted God, AND His Word that Christ lives in US, and the Spirit of the Life of Christ lives in US. Now you have 2 choices,

1.) APOLOGIZE and acknowledge the scripture, and that you are wrong..

OR
2.) Openly profess you are the reprobate, and not everyone else.
---kathr4453 on 6/5/11


Did I just read markv's last comment correctly? Did markv just say that to defend the scriptures and all we are taught in scripture is insulting to him?

I see markv's statements as apostasy, and should be insulting to all who profess to be Christ's.
---James on 6/5/11




Do you realize according to Romans 16:24-27 the ONLY Gospel that matters, is the Gospel according to the Mystery. Paul tells us in Colossians 1 the Mystery is Christ in you, and again states in Galatians, that any other Gospel is accursed.

Paul further explains this MYSTERY in Ephesians 6, Jesus prayes for it before going to the Crossin John 17.

Markv, do you realize this isn't about a difference of OPINION over a scripture verse.

What you are disputing is the ONLY Gospel that matters. What you are clearly mocking is a matter of life or death.

"If the Spirit of God is not in you, you are not Christ's," is a warning one must take seriously.

Why would I insult you, I am warning you.
---kathr4453 on 6/5/11


Kathr, there is nothing wrong with two brothers or sisters disagreeing on a passage. We can civility answer each other. We don't go to sleep thinking how we can insult someone else the next day in front of everyone as you do. But I understand your excitment when you see someone else disagree. Your eyes come wide open and there you have another reason to insult. You should stop what you are doing and repent. It will help you learn. Walking in the flesh does not help you.
---Mark_V. on 6/5/11


2nd corinth 13:5

5Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith, prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? 6But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates. 7Now I pray to God that ye do no evil, not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates.

Jesus Christ is in you/// and you are in him
---kathr4453 on 6/5/11


Genesis 18:17,20-21

After He heard the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah's sins (no doubt from angels telling him, Angels being messengers of God, just like in the case of Cornelius, who God then sent Peter) He went down to the cities to see FOR HIMSELF if it was as bad as He had been told....

"And the Lord said, "Shall I hide from Abraham what I am doing,..." And the Lord said, "Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave, I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me, and if not, I will know"
---kathr4453 on 6/4/11


However MarkV, you have changed the subject. We are talking about NT Christians, where on the day of Pentecost the Ministry of the Holy Spirit is to indwell the believer baptizing them in the the Body of Christ, becoming Begotten Sons through Jesus Christ making up the CHURCH made up of both Jew and Gentile makine ONE NEW MAN.

Now I understand why you don't understand what the CHURCH is, the Body of Christ, or the Mystery of Christ in you, RE the Church according Colossians 1.

Many will try to climb over some other way. Beware of imposters.


We enter Through the veil, that is to say His Flesh, a NEW AND LIVING WAY!!
---kathr4453 on 6/4/11




Kathr 2: what you have done is localized the Holy Spirit to one place, in the heart of believers, but the Holy Spirit is God and He is everywhere at all times, He is Omnipresent. He cannot be localized. But under the New ministry the Holy Spirit, He is said to be in the believer empowering them to do their ministry for the Lord. He is not really inside since He is Spirit. Jesus Christ is also said to be in the believer, but He is in a relationship, for He is at the right hand of the Father. -Mark_V. on 6/1/11

So now we have 2 calvinists who disagree.

What is your belief on the indwelling, in view of what GOD SAID,? Seems Markv thought this was some ugly rumor he needed to squelch.
---kathr4453 on 6/4/11


Leej, Im surprise you answered me concering the nature of God, with 1 Kings 19:11-. First, what Elijah, saw are did not see has nothing whatsoever to do with the location of God. He just didn't see Him. The Lords self revelation to Elijah came in a faint, whispering voice (v.12). The lesson for Elijah was that Almighty God was quietly, sometimes imperceptibly, doing work in Israel (.18) that Elijah could not possible see. The 3 phenomena, wind, earthquake, and fire, anounced the imminent arrival of the Lord, (Ex. 19:16-19, Ps. 18:7-15, Hab. 3:3-6). It does not mean that He is not there, but that people should know by the wind, earthquake and fire that He is there. Just because He doesn't show Himself to us, does not mean He is not there.
---Mark_V. on 6/4/11


Is the Holy Spirit everywhere?

1 King 19:11 And he said, Go out and stand on the mount before the LORD. And behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind tore the mountains and broke in pieces the rocks before the LORD, but the LORD was not in the wind. And after the wind an earthquake, but the LORD was not in the earthquake.
1Ki 19:12 And after the earthquake a fire, but the LORD was not in the fire. And after the fire the sound of a low whisper.

If God is also the Holy Spirit, then clearly He is not everywhere.
---leej on 6/3/11


MarkV, you somehow went off on a rabbit trail. You stated the Holy Spirit does not indwell believers, and Christ is not in you...then you went off on how God is in everything...if He's in/on everything THEN He is in/on unbelivers as well. You can't have it both ways.

When David spoke those words, he speaks as one who belongs to the Lord, and no matter where we are God is with us. He will never leave us or forsake us. You must read the Davidic Covenant to know what and why David said that. God Promised David, I will never take the Holy Spirit from you, seeing He did from Saul.

How much BETTER is the New Covenant to the Covenant God made with David.
---kathr4453 on 6/3/11


Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Romans 8:11
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

So QUICKENED means WHAT MarkV?

Well, NOW we know now MarkV does NOT have the Spirit DWELLING IN him testifying openly he is not Christs.
---kathr4453 on 6/3/11


Kathr, Of course you have no idea what I'm talking about. You know why? because you have not studied the Word of God to know who God is. You make statements that are not biblical concerning the Deity of God. Until you know the God of Scripture, you will continue to make errors and then get angry when someone presents the Truth to you and gives you Scripture to back it up.
---Mark_V. on 6/3/11


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Absolutely correct mima. We also know it was prophesied in the OT about the New Covenant, where God said in this NEW COVENANT, that only came into effect when Jesus rose from the dead...God said:
"I will put MY SPITIT <> in you."

Jesus also prayed in John 17, I IN THEM and Thou in me that we all may be ONE. That ONENESS described in Ephesians 5-6 is a mystical union, a oneness so close we are said to be bone of His bone and flesh of His flesh.

We also know in Corinthians that by this same Spirit we have been baptized into His Body.



MarkV, i have no idea what you are babeling about. And frankly me dear, I don't care .
---kathr4453 on 6/2/11


"... and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit can never be taken away. ..., O.S.A.S. "
---mima on 6/2/11

John 4:24 "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."
John 14:23 "Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him."

John 8:29 "And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone, for I do always those things that please him."
God is a Spirit and John 8, does it not make it clear that God will not be with whom does not DO (making clear is not a whim of His)
what please Him?
---Nana on 6/2/11


Mima, the Holy Spirit is said to be "upon many" in the Old Testament, but also "in many others" The New Testament reveals that the Spirit "in" the prophets gave them discernment and wisdom (1 Peter 1:11). The Holy Spirit ministry was not sporadic, even though it may have been limited as to persons included. Nevertheless His ministry was different from that which began at Pentecost. This is ministry works of the Spirit, but He is everywhere always. Nothing is out of the presence of God. I also did not mention David having the Spirit in him, but "Daniel" (Dan. 4:8, 5:11-14, 6:3).
---Mark_V. on 6/3/11


//In other words, did his works bring salvation to him?

mima, After all the "discussions" the answer is still no
---michael_e on 6/2/11


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Kathr, I'm sorry I have to break the bad news to you, but the Holy Spirit is spirit, and is Omnipresent, there is no place where God is not. As Spirit, God does not occupy any place, as physical objects do. He has no physical qualities that can occupy space. To meet God there is not a "where" to go or a "when" to occur. God is not only present in all places but God is fully present in every place. We can always be certain of God's undivided attention.
"Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence?" If I ascent into heaven, You are there, if I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there..." Psa. 139:7-10.
---Mark_V. on 6/2/11


Scripture says,I Samuel 16:13
"Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed [David] in the midst of his brothers, and the Spirit of the Lord came upon David from that day forward".
Notice the Spirit of the Lord came up on David. David did not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit rather he had the "accompaniment" of the Holy Spirit with him. Those born-again believers today have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit can never be taken away. God's gifts are without repentance!!!!!
O.S.A.S.
---mima on 6/2/11


WOW, markv, your #2 post really said it all. It says what you don't believe. If I am crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I but Christ in me, I believe that with all my heart mind as soul. I LIVE by the faith of Christ in me day and night. I know He is literally IN ME. THAT's my FAITH. You simply don't have faith. The reason you say that is because obviously He is not in you therefore you cannot live by the faith OF CHRIST IN YOU. If He were IN YOU, YOU WOULD KNOW IT!

I know Christ in me is the HOPE OF GLORY too!

We are simply of different faiths and beliefs markv. I wouldn't trade what I have for what you don't have for anything. You have head knowledge. Faith believes God.
---kathr4453 on 6/1/11


poopsey and markv, I don't question whether the Spirit was UPON David or any prophet, or anyone God used. God did take away the Spirit from Saul. Kings were anointed by the Spirit. So were Prophets and Priests.

But the Spirit that Jesus said would be IN YOU after He returned to the Father, is the SPIRIT of the LIFE of Christ in you. HIS resurrection life. The MYSTERY that was kept secret and now revealed is CHRIST in you. And we know He is in us by HIS Resurrection SPIRIT, where we become BEGOTTEN SONS through Jesus Christ.

Wasn't there in the OT. Jesus hadn't died and risen then.
---kathr4453 on 6/1/11


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Kathr 2: what you have done is localized the Holy Spirit to one place, in the heart of believers, but the Holy Spirit is God and He is everywhere at all times, He is Omnipresent. He cannot be localized. But under the New ministry the Holy Spirit, He is said to be in the believer empowering them to do their ministry for the Lord. He is not really inside since He is Spirit. Jesus Christ is also said to be in the believer, but He is in a relationship, for He is at the right hand of the Father. Born of the Spirit is not the same as indwelling. Born of the Spirit is when God through the Holy Spirit brings a person from a state of death to Christ to a state of spiritual life to Christ.
---Mark_V. on 6/1/11


kathr4453: You are wrong and Mark is right about the spirit. Look it up in the OT. David requested that the Holy Spirit not be taken away from him. How could this be if he did not have the spirit in the first place?

God looks at the heart and although the spirit was not received like in the NT God still gave the spirit to some.

Also the Bible clearly teaches that it is faith from first to last. All are saved by faith in God.
---poopsey on 6/1/11


Kathr, sorry you still do not understand what it is to be born of the Spirit. To be born of the Spirit is not to be indwell by the Spirit. The indwelling is to empower believers in the ministry of the Gospel, those born of the Spirit. Many were indwell by the Spirit in the Old T. Even Pharaoh recognized the indwelling of the Spirit in Josep (Gen. 41:38). The Spirit was clearly said to be in Joshua, (Numbers 27:18), further, the Spirit was said to be in Daniel (Dan. 4:8, 5:11, 6:3). The preposition "in" in all these verses is "beth" in Hebrews. The Spirit is said to have filled some. This is recorded of Bezalel, in relationship of the craftsmen working on the tabernacle (Exodus 31:3, 35:31).
---Mark_V. on 6/1/11


Kathr, Good Morning to you, too.

Good stuff in your last post. Amen, and amen.
---James_L on 5/26/11


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James L, good morning

Although OT saints, Hebrews 11, lived by faith in the coming redeemer, were not born of the Spirit either. However, they were saved, and when they died went to Abraham's Bosom, or paradise.

At Christ's death, the veil in the temple was rent, signifying the way into the Presence of God was opened. ALL those in Abraham's bosom, Paradise are NOW in the Presence of God, as stated in Hebrews 12...

In the OT, the Holy of Holies, mercy seat, blood etc, was a picture pattern of things in heaven.

No one can come into the presence of God except through Christ, who's own flesh was rent, for us to enter in, a NEW and LIVING WAY...through the veil..that is to say HIS FLESH.

Hebrews 10.
---kathr4453 on 5/26/11


\\the man who died on the cross next to Jesus did not receive the Holy Spirit when Jesus said, today you will be with me in Paradise.\\
---kathr4453 on 5/25/


The Holy Spirit was given a week after Jesus ascended.
---James_L on 5/25/11


Ezekiel 14:14 "Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD."

Does God change his word?

In Matthew 25 verses 31 to 46, who does the Lord declare that will be called the 'sheep on his right hand' and not the 'goats on the left'?

Is it not the righteous?


>>>From "Can You Commit Spiritual Adultery" blog:


"Yes, we must understand this is our justification is our POSITION before God. "
"Justification or our Position is only the beginning, not the all in all or end."
---kathr4453 on 4/2/10

Yes and yes, kathr4453.
---Nana on 4/12/10
---Nana on 5/25/11


Nana, I have no clue what you are talking about.

The SUBJECT is whether Cornelius was saved before or after Peter brought the word of the Gospel.

There are three views here.

Nana's..good devout people are saved by their good deeds. But we see God's descripton of Job, who sacrificed, (a Gentile) refering to him as a RIGHTEOUS MAN, where God spoke to Job in the end directly, Job also stating I KNOW that my redeemer liveth.

MarkV's, that anyone who is saved today was already saved before hearing the Gospel, therefore really doesn't need to hear it.

And the third, that no one is saved until they FIRST hear the Gospel, believe in their HEART God raised Jesus from the dead. Romans 10:9-10
---kathr4453 on 5/25/11


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James L, Good Morning! Well, knowing the man who died on the cross next to Jesus did not receive the Holy Spirit when Jesus said, today you will be with me in Paradise. Paradise I belive was another name for Abraham's bosom, where all who placed their faith in the coming Messiah went, before Jesus Resurrection.

I believe Acts is very clear Cornelius was not saved, God brough Peter there to give him the Gospel, Acts 10:40 - 43 IS THE GOSPEL, Preaching Jesus death and resurrection FOR the forgivnes/remission of SIN....

The GOSPEL was preached to Cornelius.
---kathr4453 on 5/25/11


It's all right here:

Acts 11:14-18 14Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

15And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

16Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water, but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

17Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, what was I, that I could withstand God?

18When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
---kathr4453 on 5/25/11


'not of this world'?

Mark 3:35 "For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother."
Family! whosoever!

Micah 6:8 "He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good, and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?"

The Holy Ghost is a gift to the saved , not salvation itself.

Acts 2:18 " And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit, and they shall prophesy"
You don't get the fine print: on my servants and on my handmaidens?
Why, think you that one is saved without service and allegiance to God?
---Nana on 5/24/11


Kathr,
You could be right about us.

I asked many times, what happened to those who believed in God's promised Redeemer and were declared righteous, like two months before Jesus came to Jerusalem and died.

Did they get un-saved, and have to get saved again, or did they even have to know about Jesus, or did they all die the same day as Jesus? what was their fate?

That's where Peter's sermon came from in Acts 2, and Cornelius and his house, etc.

They were still justified, but they did not receive the Holy Spirit until they believed in Jesus

It took time to reach all those pre-cross believers
---James_L on 5/24/11


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JamesL I believe we are saying teh same thing, only in a different way.

I should say Cornelius would have already had the Holy Spirit when Peter came to his home. If a saved person needs an Apostle to bring the Holy Spirit to them, then we're all lost. Peter brought the Gospel, that INCLUDED the promise of the Holy Spirit as the evidence in the NT Age one is saved, and given the moment we receive Christ.
---kathr4453 on 5/24/11


Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Acts 11:19 "..., preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only."

The lost sheep/jews, they knew what to repent of, and if there was any doubt, John dispelled it in Luke 3:8.

Here Nana, I will barrage you with your own answer on another blog!

We're saved from SIN, who only can be forgiven through Christ.

After this the Gospell did come to the Gentiles.

Being religeous does not save anyone.

Try again.
---kathr4453 on 5/24/11


\\If Cornelius was already saved, then he would have already had the Holy Spirit within, given on the day of pentecost to ONLY those already saved.\\
---kathr4453 on 5/24/11


Not quite. The Holy Spirit was given to those who were already "saved" only when they heard the message that God had fulfilled in Christ His promise of a Redeemer and believed.
---James_L on 5/24/11


Nana on 5/24/11

YEP, that's EXACTLY what I'm saying. In the NT, after Jesus resurrection, those who witnessed His resurrection, just as Mary His Mother, was saved, and waited for the promise of the Spirit.

Are you suggesting the Apostles, and the 100 or so including Mary, Jesus mother were not saved?

Or did the Spirit just fill a ROOM and not those in the room. If Cornelius, who you suggest was already saved, he too would have experienced the Holy Spirit as John stated, He who comes AFTER me will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with Power.

Peter didn't just ask Cornelius.."did you receive the Holy Spirit since you believed". Now we know Paul asked that question.

WHY!
---kathr4453 on 5/24/11


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>>Nana, ... you believe Cornelius was saved? Was he a proselyte? A Gentile who first converted to Judaism.<<

Considering that God is able of stones to raise up children unto Abraham, that is a mute point.


"Nana, MarkV, please show us scripture Cornelius believed the above three proving He was already saved?"
---kathr4453 on 5/24/11

Consider this:

John 17:16-18 "They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world."


Before I entertain a greater barrage of posts from you, what does it mean
not of the world?
---Nana on 5/24/11


Nana, what makes you believe Cornelius was saved? Was he a proselyte? A Gentile who first converted to Judaism. Do we see anywhere he practiced sacrifice? When Peter and others reported back to teh Council, they reported GENTILES are given the Holy Spirit just as they.

If salvation is believing in the DEATH AND RESURRECTION of Jesus Christ, and that ALONE saves, and the Holy Spirit is given to Those who receive His death and resurrection, how then was he already saved?
---kathr4453 on 5/24/11


Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shall be saved.

That who so ever believes on Him will not perish but have everlasting Life.

If you Believe in your heart God raised Jesus from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Nana, MarkV, please show us scripture Cornelius believed the above three proving He was already saved?
---kathr4453 on 5/24/11


"MarkV, scripture proves you wrong. If Cornelius was already saved, then he would have already had the Holy Spirit within, given on the day of pentecost to ONLY those already saved."
---kathr4453 on 5/24/11

You need a better argument or fix this one which is in error?

You are saying that Cornelius was not saved because he did not have the Holy Spirit beforehand.
You are saying that, "... the Holy Spirit within, given on the day of pentecost to ONLY those already saved."

Already saved."??
---Nana on 5/24/11


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Cornelius feared God, prayed to God and was answered by God. He had to be saved since God does not listen to the prayers of unbelievers. Unbelievers would never pray to God, they hate God. We are not saved ""on account of faith" ( that is, as the meritorious cause ) but "through faith" ( that is, as the instrumental cause ).
And to the same effect we may say that the redeemed shall be rewarded "in proportion to" their good works, but not "on account of" them.
---Mark_V. on 5/21/11

MarkV, scripture proves you wrong. If Cornelius was already saved, then he would have already had the Holy Spirit within, given on the day of pentecost to ONLY those already saved.
---kathr4453 on 5/24/11


Cornelius had faith, He just needed the righteousness that can only be provided through Christ after His death, burial and resurrection.
Rom 10:13-15 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Faith directed to the One who can save.
---micha9344 on 5/24/11


Sophia and Michael,

The question was did God bring him the gospel because he feared God and followed Him. This is without a doubt yes. Some how I think this was blended with being saved by faith or works. That is not the question.
---willa5568 on 5/23/11


Acts 10:35 "But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."

Done deal by the time Peter showed up.

Acts 10:36-38 "The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)
That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached,
How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil, for God was with him.
---Nana on 5/23/11


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I don't just think that. Acts 11:13,14 says it. Peter actually says, when testifying of the vision he had and his encounter with Cornelius, "That I may speak words whereby you and your household may be saved." If Cornelius was already saved, there would have no need to link "speak words" and "you and your household may be saved" with a "whereby".
---Sophia on 5/23/11


//Cornelius was not saved, otherwise there would have been no reason for the gospel to be brought to Him.//

Amen, Sophia cornelius was "religious" not saved.
---michael_e on 5/23/11


\\Cornelius was not saved, otherwise there would have been no reason for the gospel to be brought to Him.\\
---Sophia on 5/22/11


Why do you think that? Those men in Acts 2 were already "saved", and Peter delivered the gospel to them.

There was an intertestamental period, when everyone "saved" under the Old Covenant was required to believe on Jesus and His resurrection in order to receive the Holy Spirit
---James_L on 5/22/11


Cornelius was not saved, otherwise there would have been no reason for the gospel to be brought to Him. Faith only comes by hearing of the Christ God raised from the dead. Though one may reason he was saved because his prayer was heard, the truth is that the sprinkling of the blood of Jesus upon the mercy seat is a declaration of the removal of sin by the Lamb of God. Now any man can call upon the name of the Lord and be saved.
---Sophia on 5/22/11


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Acts 11:13-14 KJV

And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter, Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

This Scripture from Acts 11, where Peter is testifying of the vision he had and the Word of the Lord to him, makes it clear that neither Cornelius nor his house was saved UNTIL Peter told them words. Back in Acts 10, he preaches the gospel.
---Sophia on 5/22/11


Cornelius feared God, prayed to God and was answered by God. He had to be saved since God does not listen to the prayers of unbelievers. Unbelievers would never pray to God, they hate God. We are not saved ""on account of faith" ( that is, as the meritorious cause ) but "through faith" ( that is, as the instrumental cause ).
And to the same effect we may say that the redeemed shall be rewarded "in proportion to" their good works, but not "on account of" them.
---Mark_V. on 5/21/11


Scripture-subtle for some!

Ephesians 2:8-10 we are saved by God's grace, via faith, (His gift Romans 12:3) "..not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-not by works, so that no one can boast...we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus, to do Good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

James does not contradict- 2:14 "What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?" vs 21" Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous by what He did..." 22 "..his faith and actions were working together and his faith. made complete by what He did."

Saved by faith, not works, but works to follow!
---Warwick on 5/21/11


"have you not then made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?...For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it ... 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty...For judgment [is] without mercy to him that hath showed no mercy... if a man say he hath faith, but have not works? CAN THAT FAITH SAVE HIM?
---willa5568 on 5/19/11


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Nowhere is Abraham called a man of works.
---Warwick on 5/15/11

James,
21 "Was not Abraham our father justified by works"
"You see, then, that out of works is man declared righteous,and not out of faith only"
---willa5568 on 5/19/11

Nice work willa5568. The hidden is and is not.

Psa 106:35But were mingled among the heathen, and learned their works.

Now Israel is mingled amongst the doctrines of men and learn their works.
---Trav on 5/20/11


Willa,

James 2
v12 So speak and act as those who "will be" judged by the Law of Liberty

v14 But what if a man says he has faith, but has no works. Can faith save him?

The question is - save him from what? a believer's judgment only two verses earlier. But keep reading to

3:1 Do not many of you aspire to be teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment


James 2:19 you believe that God is one, you do well (but where are your works - paraphrase)

Heb 11:6 without faith it is impossible to please Him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that He is, and that He rewards those who seek Him
---James_L on 5/19/11


James,
1 My brethren, hold not, in respect of persons, the faith of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but have not works? can that faith save him?

21 "Was not Abraham our father justified by works"

"You see, then, that out of works is man declared righteous,and not out of faith only"

This has nothing to do with rewards. It speaks of our justification through our faith,which is proven real by our works,in Christ Jesus.
---willa5568 on 5/19/11


If you read James from 2:12-3:1 it should be clear that the context is a believer's judgment, which is at the Bema.

It is there that all believers' works will be judged. If any are burned up, he will suffer loss. But if any remain he will receive a reward (1Cor 3:13-15.

James 2:14 says that our works are what "save" us from losing our reward.

2:21 is saying that Abraham was "justified" in receiving a reward
---James_L on 5/17/11


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mima, the answer to your question is NO!

Cornelius had to HEAR the Gospel just like everyone else has to first HEAR to believe, leadint to salvation...then being given teh Holy Spirit after he believed.

Cornelius simply OBEYED.
---kathr4453 on 5/17/11


In Hebrews it says without faith it is impossible to please God. Does that mean that faith in God and His word alone will save us?
Faith is expressed in love for God and our neighbor which means without these things it is not faith at all. Cornelius was a man that was a man of God who did what he did because of his love and faith in God. "whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him." God brought salvation to him because He SAW his faith.
---willa5568 on 5/15/11


//James was not contradicting Paul's teaching//

correct, if you understand to whom they were each writing.
James writes to the "nation" of Israel (Gal.2:9 James.1:1)
Paul, writes to the nations with no distinction(Gal 2:9, Rom 3:22,10:12
Easy if you go by 2Tim 2:15
---michael_e on 5/15/11


So Ephesians 2:8-9 is wrong is it Cluny?

BTW Hebrews ch. 11 says Abraham was justified by faith, as does Romans 4:20-24. His actions with Isaac were those of a man of faith.

Nowhere is Abraham called a man of works.
---Warwick on 5/15/11


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Cluny, James was not contradicting Paul's teaching that Abraham was justified before God by Grace alone through faith along (Rom. 3:20, 4:1-25, Gal. 3:6, 11). For several reasons, James cannot mean that Abraham was constituted righteous before God because of his own works since James already stressed that salvation is a gracious gift in (1:17,18) second, because in the middle of this passage (v.23) James quoted (Gen. 15:6) which forcefully claims that God credited righteousness to Abraham solely on the basis of his faith (Rom. 1:17, 3:24, 4:1-25) also the work that James said justified Abraham was his offering up of Isaac an event that occured many years after he first exercised faith and was declared righteous before God (Gen. 12:1-7, 15:6).
---Mark_V. on 5/15/11


Now concerning Rahab in James 2:25, again James is not saying that Rehab was justied by her works since people are not justified by lying. That is sin. The Old T. records the content of her faith which was the basis of her justification before God (Josh 2:11). She demonstrated the reality of saving faith when at a great personal risk she protected the messengers of God (Josh 2:4,15, 6:17, Heb. 11:31) James 2:22 James says, that faith was working together with works and faith was made perfect. Works was the evidence of the true faith she had, the same as Abraham.
---Mark_V. on 5/15/11


\\This makes it perfectly clear that we are not saved by works.\\

James 2:21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

ames 2:25
Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/14/11


Ephesians 2:8,9 says " For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-not by works, so that no one can boast." This makes it perfectly clear that we are not saved by works. If we should claim we are saved by works this it makes us boasters.

Acts 10:1-4 Tells us that Cornelius was already a follower of God and that his prayers and gifts were pleasing to God. Not that they sayed him as it was his faith which did that.

Likewise in James ch. 2 he writes of those who claim to be saved, but have no works. James says that our works are evidence of our salvation, not the cause of our salvation.
---Warwick on 5/14/11


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Read Acts 10:4. Our Blessed Paul wrote, "do not forget to do good and to share, for which such sacrifices God is well pleased" (Hebrews 13:16). And Saint James, "You see then that a man is justified by works, and not be Faith only" (James 2:24), and again, "They profess to know God, but in works they deny him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good" (Titus 1:16), and again from our Lord, "Not everyone who says to me 'Lord Lord' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in Heaven" (Matthew 7:21).

Notice Mima, the Bible does not mention that Cornelius repeated a non-biblical "sinner's prayer" (a mental work).

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 5/13/11


This question is so thoughtless I will just quote Cluny:
mima, do you think the words, "Your prayers and alms have gone up for a memorial before God," are meaningless?
---Cluny on 5/12/11

There MUST be a better question associated with Cornelius salvation.
---francis on 5/13/11


I would say the reason his prayers and alms were accepted by God was because of how he was, not only because of what he was doing. Ones can be giving attention to what they are doing, but not be really deeply sharing with God in His love, pleasing Him in His love's "incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God." (in 1 Peter 3:4) This beauty of God's love is "incorruptible", by the way, almighty against depression, worry, immoral feelings, stress . . . unforgiveness and continuing suffering of hurts.
---Bill_willa6989 on 5/13/11


Mima, I agree but take a step further. God freely gives knowledge of how to be saved (through Jesus) to everyone (through pastors, dreams, music, etc.) by the Holy Spirit continuously. However we can shut-out the HS to were we cannot hear His call when the gossip is presented. Cornelius's prayer, alms, and giving made him able to hear the HS through Peter's preaching of salvation by faith in Jesus. So yes his works allowed him to be saved but God can use many paths to bring people to Jesus and salvation like hardships, trials, joys, dreams, giving to make us available for HS calling.
To everyone else this is not a question of how to be saved.
---Scott on 5/13/11


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"did his works bring salvation to him?" No.
These verses are applicable to all men without exception.
"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God" Eph 2:8
"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us..." Tts 3:5
"So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy" Rom 9:16
All verses taken from the (NKJV)
---josef on 5/13/11


Had Saul been 'saved' if he had not changed his ways?
Cornelious needed not change, he was walking as God would have all men walk. He was saved even before Peter showed up..., but just as the Ghost descended on Jesus and it was witnessed, so it needed to be with Cornelious. Even baptism with water needed to be so, for this symbolized and enbodied not just one man and his household being accepted but the beginning of the body of Christ shed abroad to all men, the Church.
---Nana on 5/13/11


mima, do you think the words, "Your prayers and alms have gone up for a memorial before God," are meaningless?

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/12/11


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