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Is The Trinity Biblical

Is the Trinity taught in scripture clearly without debatable verses and no reasonable doubt that it is correct? Or does it teach God is one person and Jesus is His son and not God and holy spirit is Gods power, not a person without reasonable doubt?

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 ---willa5568 on 5/16/11
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If JESUS was just a man then his death could atone for no one. For each of us is responsible for our sins.

If JESUS was an angel combined with man then his death could not be applied to others for it is against GOD we have sinned. It is his law we have broken. GOD alone is the Saviour.

If JESUS is both GOD and man than he can reach out to us as a human and lift us up. As GOD he can inteced and be one with the Father.

A saviour had to be both GOD and man to save all human beings.

My church the Seventh day Adventists started out with an antitrinitarian attitude. But through Bible study we figured out we were wrong. Because we took the Bible as the final answer.
---Samuel on 5/18/11


There have been a number of Bible verses showing JESUS is GOD. Add these.

Hbr 1:3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Hbr 1:8 But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.

JESUS is GOD. The Father is GOD. So to solve this conumdrum we had to develop new language and we call it the trinity.
---Samuel on 5/18/11


"No man or angel...can save as Isaiah 43:11..apart from me there is no Saviour." Warwick

True to form Warwick overlooks the obvious dilemma that his assertions present.

Judges 6:37 says that it is Jehovah who is saving Israel. And yet Judges 6:14 says that Gideon will save Israel.

Who is the savior?

There is only one act of salvation referred to in this account.

Was the Lord God lying when he said "apart from me there is no savior"?

Likewise, Othniel (Judges 3:9) and Ehud (2 Kings 13:5) are scripturally referred to as 'savior'.

To follow Warwick's reasoning - Gideon, Othniel and Ehud are the Almighty God.

Can you say Sextinity?
---scott on 5/18/11


Ok this is how I view it from scriptures. Using 1cor 11 explains it all in 1cor 11:1 it says Man is head of woman,Jesus head of man & God head of Jesus. Jesus is Gods son. 1 family and purpose ,seperate people .
---candice on 5/18/11


John 1:1-14 shows the proof of the Trinity. Verses 1-2,14 show that the Word was God. There was no "Jesus" in the beginning..contrary to popular beliefs. Jesus is a "name/title" & means "Savior". That just tells what He, the Word made flesh, came to do.

Verse 10 shows that the Word created the world. Genesis 1:1 only shows "God"...same as John 1:1.

Genesis 1:26 shows the Trinity. We were created in the image of the Trinity...3-in-1.

You are a spirit, have a soul, & dwell in a body.(IThessalonians 5:23)

Luke 3:21-22, John 15:26, Acts 2:34, 1 Peter 1:2

Acts 5:3-4 shows that the Holy Spirit is God.
Colossians 1:15-18
---Rickey on 5/18/11




Trinitarian rendering of John 1:1 is a classic example of manipulation and mistranslation. Firstly, only 2 entities are discussed- God and The Word- not 3.

John 1:1 says, 'theos en ho logos', NOT 'ho theos en ho logos' as trinitarians would have everyone believe. The logos is not identified as the God it is with. Rather, without the definite article as in 'ho theos', the logos is described as 'a god' or 'divine'.

The singular anarthrous predicate noun occurs before the verb- thus, according to greek grammar and context the correct non-trinitarian rendering is, 'and the Word was a god'. Same principle applied at Acts 28:6.
---David8318 on 5/18/11


Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels, but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

What people? His brethren.
Matt 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
....the ten Virgins,coins,servants etc. As verified by all OT Prophets.
Matt20:24
And when the ten heard it, they were moved with indignation against the two brethren.
---Trav on 5/18/11


\\The resurrected Jesus clearly is NOT God\\

Yes, He is.

St. Thomas greeted the Resurection of Christ with the words, "My Lord and my God!" Jesus did not rebuke him or correct him.

What did you think Thomas meant? "My God, it's the Lord?"

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/18/11


Cliff do you not notice that when the topic of the Trinity is brought up once again the JW band charge in with their denominaltionally provided doctrine? Where is Scott, or has he changed his name?

And aren't you the man who told us he had been burned by the JW's? But here you are defending their nonBiblical beliefs.

"Fancy dancing", yours!
---Warwick on 5/18/11


In John 8:58 Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I am."
He told them that He was, as the Word, in existence before Abraham was.
In eternity past He was the Word. On earth He was Jesus the Christ.

1st Timothy 3:16 says,
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: GOD WAS MANIFEST IN THE FLESH, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
---Rickey on 5/18/11




David, again the same contradicted fallacies! You apparently have nothing else!

Regarding your Babylonian triad, Christians worship only 1 God. You know this.

Again you repeat the cannard "John 14:28, 'the Father is greater than I am'."

Scripture shows us Jesus is fully God, fully man. Equal to the Father regarding His Godhood, inferior to Him regarding His manhood. Jesus, on earth, took a lower position, as Scripture says, positionally below the Father. The word 'greater' which John uses (Greek) 'meizon' means greater in position, not in substance. If John had wished to say Jesus was inferior in nature he would have used 'kreitton.'

Show where these definitions are wrong, or accept I am right!
---Warwick on 5/18/11


Willa, "son of man" is the term Jesus uses to describe the man Jesus. "Son of God" describes His deity.

Those who met Jesus saw the man, the human.

Conversely those with Him on the mount saw His transfiguration and heard God say "this is my Son." They saw His glory, the glory of the one who created everything, including the angels, who were commanded to 'worship' Him. Angels do not worship angels, but God alone.

Jesus indeed had all authority (not independent of the Father) but as God the Son, because they, being Spirit, are one in accord.

Deniers of Christ cannot deny the fact that Colossians 1:15 clearly describes Jesus as the Creator of everything ever created, therefore God!
---Warwick on 5/18/11


Cliff, JW's have two God's-Almighty God, and Mighty God. Now you are proposing two Saviours the God Saviour and the demi-God saviour.

I suppose you will be telling us there are also two Creators, two Alpha and Omega's, two King of Kings, and two Lord of Lords?

A thought just hit me-splat-but it is breakfast time and maybe my blood sugar level is down. The thought is that what you call my dancing is a reasonable description of the fact that I (even I) am able to dance around the irrationality of your beliefs, and your misuse, (abuse?) of Scripture. And I am no one special!

I'm a gunna keepa dancin!
---Warwick on 5/18/11


Why try to understand, what you cant? unless you do, I guess!
But, for your understanding dont call God a liar.
Next to me(God) there is no other God.
Again there is no other savior but me(God)
There never was and there never will be another God.
But, I still say its a pretty idea, can you picture it? A little baby God.
---TheSeg on 5/18/11


Wareick, More fancy dancing?
**God the father AND Christ Jesus****Our great God AND Jesus Christ** = 2 like you AND me!
So who is the "saviour" the one who died or the one who orchestrated the path of salvation?.
Only the Father had the authority to nullify Adamic sin,(Isa.43.11) His Son paid the price!
---1st_cliff on 5/18/11


John,
'elohiym

- Definition:
1. (plural)
a. rulers, judges
b. divine ones
c. angels
d. gods
2. (plural intensive - singular meaning)
a. god, goddess
b. godlike one
c. works or special possessions of God
d. the (true) God
e. God

it is not limited to the Lord (YHWH, this is His name which is what is used in Isaiah). if applied in plural sense you suggest then if would have to read "the Lord your Gods".

here's an explanation of what intensive plural is with God:The intensive plural denotes a singular object or individual but adds a connotation of greatness. So Elohim does not mean gods but great God.
---willa5568 on 5/18/11


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One of the three most popular verses used by trinitarians is John 1:1. It says the Word was with God and the Word was God and the Word became flesh, not the son. It is very possible, as I believe, that this is the word that God had spoken. That He would send a savior to the nation of Israel. You don't have to agree with this but it is a possibility considering the "he" use can also be "it".
Regardless it is not sufficient to use as a proof text.

Concerning Isaiah 7:14, it is not only prophetic toward Jesus but also was a sign for Ahaz, read the rest of the chapter. Immanuel meant God was with them to save them from these nations as God was with Israel to save His people from their sin (Matthew 1:21).
---willa5568 on 5/18/11


Babylonian triad + Plato = Christendoms 'triune trinity'.

Trinitarians cannot find any direct scriptural passage that specifically states 'the Son of God is also God the Father' or 'Jesus is God'. Both statements are non-sensical, illogical, and unscriptural. If both the 'Son' and the 'Father' are one and the same, why try to make a distinction between them if there is no distinction to be drawn?!

John 14:28, 'the Father is greater than I am'.

Revelation 3:12, the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as 'my God' some 4 times. The resurrected Jesus clearly is NOT God, but continues to be subordinate to God even after his resurrection- 1 Cor.15:28.
---David8318 on 5/18/11


Let's say you entered a foot race, and as the starting gun sounded you could somehow teleport yourself to the finish line. You would win the race, but with no work on your part. You would not have really accomplished anything. What did Jesus have to do to provide your salvation? In short, he had to live the law his whole life without sin. If Jesus was God, and we know God can not sin, there is no way he could have failed at this task. He could not loose. No contest. On the other hand, if he was the only begotten Son of God, a man tempted in all things, and chose to live a sinless life by his own free will, he would have accomplished what no one else could. And in the end, became the blameless lamb that was sacrificed to cover our sins.
---Ray on 5/18/11


Willa,
"which of the angels did God ever say, You are my Son,
today I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU? Or again, I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son?
when he(God) BRINGS THE FIRST BORN into the world, he(God) says, Let all God's angels worship him."

As your previous post said "he was begotten (born of a women)", does not negate His deity, and does not show hat He did not exist previous to being begotten. Kathr: Jesus Christ is God in the Flesh...Jesus states in John 17, Glorify me with the Glory I had with you before the world.
Also, In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us
---Christina on 5/18/11


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WARWICK
Mark 2:7 "...Who can forgive sins but God alone?

10 ...the Son of Man HAS AUTHORITY ON EARTH to forgive sins

Matthew 28:18 "ALL AUTHORITY HAS BEEN GIVEN unto me in heaven and on earth."

Titus 3:4 "...GOD our Savior...HE saved us...HE poured out on us richly THROUGH Jesus Christ our Savior (God saves us through Jesus his death and resurrection,Romans 1:8,3:22,3:24,5:1,5:11,5:21,7:25,8:11,16:27,1Corinthians8:6,15:27,2Corinthians1:1,5:18,Galatians3:26,Ephesians1:5,Philippians1:11,1Thessalonians5:9,2:14,2Timothy3:15,Hebrews10:10,13:21,1Peter2:5,3:21,4:11)

Titus 2:13 " Our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ." (great God , and savior Jesus Christ are two separate persons not one)
---willa5568 on 5/18/11


willa,

Hebrews 11:3
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the WORD of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Genesis tells us GOD created the Heavens and earth.

John tells us The WORD IS GOD.

Colossians 1:15-17
15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

We are told EXACTLY that Jesus Christ is GOD.
---kathr4453 on 5/18/11


No man or angel-man-angel can save as Isaiah 43:11 proclaims about the Lord God"...apart from me there is no Saviour."

Mark 2:7 "...Who can forgive sins but God alone?'

Paul says:

Titus 1:3 By the command of God our Saviour.
Titus 1:4 from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Saviour.
Titus 2:13 " Our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ."
Titus 3:6 "Through Jesus Christ our Saviour."


Paul alternately calls God Saviour, and Jesus Saviour, and in 2:13, calls Jesus "great God and Saviour." Therefore as only God is Saviour, Jesus being called Saviour is a claim to deity, making Jesus God. Remember Paul was a strict monotheist!
---Warwick on 5/17/11


How about the name of G-d in Hebrew...

Elohim which is plural.

OR...

Issiah saying Holy, Holy , Holy when he saw G-d(3) in Heaven.
---John on 5/17/11


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//Donna66 on 5/17/11//

10:30-36 I and the Father are one... 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, YE ARE GODS? If HE CALLED THEM GODS, unto whom the word of God came (and the scripture cannot be broken),
say ye of him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest, BECAUSE I SAID I AM THE SON OF GOD(not God)...

38 THAT THE FATHER IS IN ME, AND I IN HIM.17:21 that they may ALL BE ONE, even as thou, FATHER ART IN ME AND I IN THE THAT THEY ALSO MAY BE IN US:... that they may be one, even as we [are] one, 23 I IN THEM AND THOU IN ME, that they may be perfected into one

Are we to part of the trinity considering we abide in the Father just as Jesus does?
---willa5568 on 5/18/11


Jeremiah 23: 6 '...the name by which he will be called : The Lord our Righteousness.'

Isaiah 9:6 '..he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.'

Therefore He is called, The Lord our Righteousness, Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father and Prince of Peace.

Also called Jesus, Messiah, Saviour, Redeemer, Son of God, Creator, the Alpha & the Omega, King of Kings and Lord of Lords, the Word of God. He is called many things, has many names, overall He is called God.

As Thomas said 'My Lord and My God John 20:28-or in Greek transliterated 'The Lord of me and The God of me.' Not god or even God but The God-Ho Theos!
---Warwick on 5/18/11


kather4453,

here is what Jesus said in the first three verses in this chapter before speaking of the glory he had before the world was.
" 1 ...FATHER, the hour is come, glorify thy Son, that the son may glorify thee: even as THOU GAVEST HIM AUTHORITY over all flesh, that to all whom thou hast given him, he should give eternal life. 3 And this is life eternal, that they should know thee(the Father) THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND him whom thou didst send, [even] JESUS Christ."

The Father is the ONLY true God.
---willa5568 on 5/18/11


Jesus is not a created being he is eternal.

John 17 NIV
5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

24 Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

John 1 NIV
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.

1 John 2 NIV
13 I write to you, fathers, because you have known him who is from the beginning.

Revelation 22 NIV
12 Behold, I am coming soon!.... 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
---poopsey on 5/18/11


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willa5568 & David8318: You know much Bible letters. Kindly explain what God said thro' Isaiah (1) ..his name shall be called... The Eternal Father 9:6 (2)and shall call his name Immanuel 7:14 (3)thy Maker.. thy Redeemer..The God of the whole earth shall he be called 54:5.
---Adetunji on 5/18/11


willa, you said if I am not mistaken, Adam and Jesus although Adam was created out of the dust, basically came into teh world teh same way??


Adam was created, The Word, who is God was MADE FLESH. He was not CREATED.

Man was CREATED on the 6th day.

Jesus said " before Abraham was "I AM".

Don't you know why many Jews rejected Him? Any YOU reject Him for exactly those same reasons.
---kathr4453 on 5/18/11


Willa, the amazing thing is that you say that as a trinitarian you had questions so you studied and came to a conclusion that trinity is not biblical. i have a friend who was unitarian (i know most of you dont' like me using this word however how am I to call you otherwise) and came to repent his unionist vieuws after study and prayers so he chagnged to trinitariasm.
Now I am a trinitarian myself, because trinity has more solutions then questions opposed to unitarism who gives me more questions then answers. so logically i'm a unitarian. nevertheless i do understand that some people cannot grasp this truth that i hold.
---andy3996 on 5/18/11


Jer 29:8-9 For thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, Let not your prophets and your diviners, that [be] in the midst of you, deceive you, neither hearken to your dreams which ye cause to be dreamed. For they prophesy falsely unto you in my name: I have not sent them, saith the LORD.
Eze 14:9-10 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel. And they shall bear the punishment of their iniquity: the punishment of the prophet shall be even as the punishment of him that seeketh [unto him],
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
-Arius or 300+ Elders?
---micha9344 on 5/18/11


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Cliff when translating one languare into another we carry the meaning of language 1 into language 2. For this reason the English NT says of the Holy Spirit:
He is referred to as He
He is counselor
He teaches
He reminds
He testifies
He speaks
He commands
He calls Himself I
Peter equates lying to Him as lying to God.
We can have fellowship with Him.

If we were to replace 'He' in the above it would change nothing:
Holy Spirit is counselor
Holy Spirit teaches
Holy Spirit reminds.....

Matthew 28:19 "...make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. By your reasoning the Father and the Son are also impersonal.
---Warwick on 5/17/11


Cluny,

I asked my question with the purpose of sharing the truth.
I do not teach what Arian taught even though he was very close to the truth. You say it's anti-Christian because that's all you know. I doubt you have even checked any of the scripture I have presented to see if what I am saying is true. I was once very zealous about the trinity myself until the truth was revealed to me. If you chose to ridicule me, that's OK. But I have no question that what I am saying is true. If you are satisfied with what you have always been told is true, that is your failure to search the scripture yourself.

I pray you will one day come to an understanding of the truth.

Gods blessings
---willa5568 on 5/17/11


//---Christina on 5/17/11//


8 but of the Son [he saith,](God) Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever, And the sceptre of uprightness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity, Therefore GOD, THY GOD, hath anointed thee With the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

which of the angels did God ever say, You are my Son,
today I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU? Or again, I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son?
when he(God) BRINGS THE FIRST BORN into the world, he(God) says, Let all God's angels worship him.
---willa5568 on 5/17/11


Adam never said, "I and the father are one". He never considered himself a god in any way.
If God is a "He" (as I think he always is) as well as being spirit, (Jhn4:24) God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth, why can the same not be true of the Holy Spirit?

As you mentioned, metaphors in scripture are quite obvious:the ocean has hands to clap, wisdom is a female that cries out, blood cries out etc..
But what inanimate object is said to teach, comfort, speak, remind, convict of sin and even be lied to, but the HS ?

There is no EVIDENCE that the Christian trinity is in any way related to deities of the Babylonians or Greeks..
It's mere supposition.
---Donna66 on 5/17/11


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kathr4453 on 5/17/11

you are correct he was begotten (born of a women). Adam though was created from the dust. No difference except the way they were brought into being. Please I ask you, look at the scripture I have posted that have plainly stated who the one God (the Father) is and who Jesus and holy spirit are. No one has presented anything that says Jesus us God but only scripture they use that may imply he is God.
---willa5568 on 5/17/11


//reconciling the irreconcilable//

The US government is not made of three governments. It is made of three branches of the government that cannot stand alone...checks and balances..One nation.

Godliness is not made of three gods. It is made of three entities of Godliness that do not stand alone...witness and agreement...'One God'.

Reconciled.
---aka on 5/17/11


willa, spiritual things are spiritually discerned.

Did you come here to ask a question--or to preach your anti-Christian Arian/Pnevmatomach message?

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/17/11


Bill_willa6989 on 5/17/11

No one understands this, that is why it is called a mystery. Because I didn't understand it I asked questions no one had an answer to. So I began to look for myself and have been shown the truth, that the trinity is not biblical. It has to be put together like a puzzle with pieces that do not fit together. I hope everyone on here will be objective enough to test if what I am saying fits the scriptural witness without bias.

And Gods blessing be with you brother!
---willa5568 on 5/17/11


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'Trinity' for the trinitarian is a convenient word used to describe what they believe to be truth.

However, an inconvenient truth for trinitarians is that it is well known and documented where the concept of the trinity originates- and it's not the Bible.

Rather, the trinity stems from the Babylonian mythological worship of triadic deities. The influence of Greek Hellenists (ie.Plato) with philosophical teachings of nature and 'metaphysics' (still used by trinitarians today to explain 'trinity') allowed early triniatrians to worship not a triad, but a triune god- reconciling the irreconcilable- 'we worship not 3 god's, but 3 in one', is the Neoplatonic/trinitarian mantra. 'Three in one' is also not a Bible teaching.
---David8318 on 5/17/11


89 times holy spirit accures in the NT. 43 times it has a definite article(the)the other 45 times it doesn't. It would read "filled with holy spirit". The majority of the 43 times it refers to the gift which does not make the definite article insist on being a person, such as the holy spirit of God, which certainly means God is the person while holy spirit can or cannot be. Concerning the few that remain. Considering God is Holy and Spirit, it could be possible that is what they refer to.
---willa5568 on 5/17/11


Willa, Hebrews 1

But about the Son he says,

Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever,
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness,
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy
---Christina on 5/17/11


The same can be said of Adam since he was also created in the image and likeness of God ,was also without sin and called the son of God.

---willa5568 on 5/17/11

Oh dear! willa5565, Jesus is the ONLY BEGOTTEN of the Father. Adam was not a begotten son or the Only Begotten of the Father. Adam was made out of the dust of the earth. Jesus Christ was not.

Now I understand why you didn't understand what I wrote on another post.

Jesus Christ is God in the Flesh...Jesus states in John 17, Glorify me with the Glory I had with you before the world. No such statement can Adam make.
---kathr4453 on 5/17/11


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the trinity is borrowed from pagans ...the god of this world through his false ministers of light superimposed this idea into the counterfeit christianity 2Corin 4:4, 11:13 unable to see there are TWO Christs - the Biblical Christ and counterfeit christianitys christ and queen of heaven mary (or Ishtar) ...the deceived are within rcc and those who PROTESTed some of her pagan doctrines creating protestants

trinity established sometime after 300AD

Apostles and Christ never mention this abomination

Apostles NEVER greet another "god" in any Holy Scripture

Simply The Father in Heaven and Christ

ONLY Truth is in Holy Scripture ...Rev 17 states to come out of babylon
---Rhonda on 5/17/11


Warick, Another example of "slickness" **The Holy spirit is a person not an it**5/17/11
As if you were not aware of the fact that Greek has masculine, feminine and neuter words that we don't have in English.
Pneuma (spirit) is neutral and properly called "IT" like Rom.8.16,(KJV) but the biased translators were not consistent and wrongly used "he,him and himself".
In Hebrew the word "Ruach"(spirit) is feminine , In Judaism Holy Spirit is NEVER referred to as a person
---1st_cliff on 5/17/11


Willa, that Jesus is called firstborn Greek 'prototokos' does not mean he is 'first-created' as JW's falesly say. Scholars agree prototokos means 'first in rank, pre-eminent one, heir.' King David was the last born son but is called 'firstborn' by God. God also calls Israel his 'firstborn.'

You refer to John 1:3 where it says everything was made 'through' Jesus as though this means He was not the direct Creator. However both Romans 11:36, and Hebrews 2:10 say everything was made "through" God. Colossians 1:15 makes it plain that "all things (not all other things as JW's falsely claim) were made by him and for him"..."he is before all things" therefore cannot be a created being.
---Warwick on 5/17/11


Warwick,

"giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saint...He(God)...transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, He is the image(just as Adam was) of the invisible God, the FIRST BORN OF ALL CREATION. IN(or through not by) him, were created all things(the Kingdom of God not creation)...he is the head of the body, the church: who is THE BEGINNING, THE FIRST BORN FROM THE DEAD, that in all things he might have the preeminence.

This is how Paul begins the book "We return thanks to GOD AND THE FATHER of our Lord Jesus Christ..."

Know where does this imply Jesus is God.
---willa5568 on 5/17/11


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//Warick Notice also Hebrews 12:2 says Jesus sits on the throne with God//

"Then comes the end, when he(Jesus) delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power.For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet."Jesus came and said to them, All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me".
Notice this is after his resurrection yet the authority had been GIVEN to him. But when the end comes he hands the kingdom given to him to his Father(and God Romans 15:6 plus many more times)
---willa5568 on 5/17/11


//Warick Colossians 1:15 says Jesus is Creator!//

"giving thanks to the Father..."who"transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son...who(Jesus) is the(no definite article in greek text so should be a or an) image(i.e. likeness) of the invisible God(as was Adam), THE FIRST BORN of all creation(would mean he was created)Because, in(or through not by in the sense he created) him, were created all things...{all things were created through him and FOR HIM}(speaks of the kindom of God not creation)...he is the head of the body, the church: who is THE BEGINNING, the FIRSTBORN from the dead, that in all things he might have the preeminence.
this in no way implies he is God
---willa5568 on 5/17/11


Yes, they received power when they received the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit brought things to their remembrance (John 14:26). Reminding people of something is not just an action of power, but a personal action (c: Also, "Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us." (Romans 5:5) The Holy Spirit shares God's own love with us > "For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind." (2 Timothy 2:7) This is very personal, right "in our hearts" (c: A personal Being is doing this with us. Who but God can be the Spirit of His own love? God bless you! (c:
---Bill_willa6989 on 5/17/11


samuel,

But understanding what the passage means without contradicting the rest of scripture is the thing desired to reach. You cannot create a doctrine based on a few verses that seem to say something while there are a great many that ... contradict the few.
willa5568

True. There are areas revealed in the New Testament not shown in the OT. The trinity is the doctrine that GOD is three person yet one GOD. Do I perfectily understand this. No. I do not understand my wife either.

There have been excellent posts showing the Tinity is biblical already.
---Samuel on 5/17/11


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//Jhn 14:9 ....he that hath seen me hath seen the Father, and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Donna66//

The same can be said of Adam since he was also created in the image and likeness of God ,was also without sin and called the son of God.

Concerning the personal pronouns involving the holy spirit. If that is so then the ocean has hands to clap, wisdom is a female that cries out, blood cries out so on and so on.
---willa5568 on 5/17/11


Jesus is the second person of the Godhead. In the OT God is Creator, Redeemer and Saviour.

In the NT these titles are given to Jesus. Colossians 1:15 tells us Jesus is Creator of all things therefore He isn't a creature, but the Creator God.

The very term 'Son of God' means He is equal in substance with God the Father as an earthly son is equal in substance with his father.

The Holy Spirit is a person not an 'it' because:

People are baptized into His name
He is referred to as He
He is counselor
He teaches
He reminds
He testifies
He speaks
He commands
He calls Himself I
Peter equates lying to Him as lying to God.
We can have fellowship with Him.
---Warwick on 5/17/11


Hebrews 11 says the universe was created by God, and commends those of great faith . But Colossians 1:15 says Jesus is Creator! Is this Biblical error? No, only because God and Jesus are one.

Notice also that Jesus' faith, greater than all others, does not rate a mention because He is God the 'author'(originator) of our faith, whose faith is above any man's.

Notice also Hebrews 12:2 says Jesus sits on the throne with God. Does any man sit upon God's throne? No. Therefore again Jesus is shown to be God. In Biblical times one king would invite another to sit upon his throne, at his right side, if he considered the other to be his equal. Jesus Kings of Kings sits upon the throne.
---Warwick on 5/17/11


It is inconceivable that God
did not reveal any notion of a triune entity for 4,000 years from Adam to the 1st advent of Christ! If this was a true fact!
Dealing exclusively with "His" people He said (Deut.6.4.) that He was "one" God, not multi personality like Baal and other pagan gods!
The Father has a name- YHVH
The Son has a name- Jesus
The Holy Spirit has no name!
---1st_cliff on 5/17/11


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Lied to:Acts 5:3-4
Blasphemed against:Matt 12:31-32, Mark 3:29, Luke 12:10
Teaches:Luke 12:12, John 14:26
a Witness:Acts 5:32,20:23, Rom 8:16
Speaks:Mark 13:11, Acts 1:16,13:2, Heb 3:7, Rev 2:7
Knows Good:Acts 15:28
Can be grieved:Eph 4:30
See also: Isa 48:16,1Co 2:10,12
God is a Spirit: John 4:24-Is He just an impersonal force?
1Cor 12:4-6 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
2Cor 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, [be] with you all. Amen
---micha9344 on 5/16/11


\\First it is of GODS SPIRIT, meaning it comes from God not is God.\\

Wrong, willa.

The Son is a person--yet is sent from the Father.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/16/11


2 JOHN 5:7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven, the father, the Word,Holy Spirit, and these three are one,

JOHN 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld his ,the glory as of the only begotten of the father, full of grace and truth,
---RICHARDC on 5/16/11


Whether the holy Spirit is a 'person' or not is debatable. I would never break fellowship with someone who had doubts about the personality of the holy Spirit.
---John.usa on 5/16/11


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Warick,

Jesus cannot indwell he is a resurrected man nor can the Father he is God. The spirit is "OF" God, meaning it comes from God not equal to Him.

Ricky,

1John 5:7 is rejected by most if not all reputable biblical scholars as authentic.

John 1:1 "the word was God". because there is no definite article(the) before God in the Greek it can legitimately be translated as "a god". Also when says "he was in the beginning". the Greek word translated as "he" can also be translated as "it" or several other words.


Genesis 1:26 "let us", is a plural pronoun which emphasizes the majesty of the speaker not limited to plurality in number.
---willa5568 on 5/16/11


some verses that make it difficult for Jesus to be God.

Romans 15:6, 2Corinthians 1:3, Ephesians 1:3, 1:17,5:20, Colossians 1:3, 1Peter 1:3 (all of these speak of the GOD and Father of Jesus which makes no sense for Peter or Paul to say since they know Jesus is God)

John 20:17 "...my God and your God my Father and your Father..." (Jesus says this himself before Thomas supposedly calls him God.)

2Timothy 2:5 "there is ONE God, and there is ONE MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD and man , THE MAN Christ Jesus"

Acts 3:15 "the Author of life(Jesus), WHOM GOD raised from the dead." (notice Jesus is not part of who God is)

Acts 2:22 "Jesus of Nazareth, A MAN attested to you BY GOD.."
---willa5568 on 5/16/11


//Or does it teach God is one person and Jesus is His son and not God and holy spirit is Gods power, not a person without reasonable doubt?//

No it does not. Jesus himself says (John 10:30) I and my father are one. Jhn 14:9 ....he that hath seen me hath seen the Father, and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? The Holy Spirit is repeatedly referred to as "he" and "him". God's power has no gender. The Holy Spirit is sent by Jesus to fulfill His promise.

The concept of the trinity arises not from single verses but from the concepts of Father, Son and Holy Spirit as described throughout the entire Scripture.
---Donna66 on 5/16/11


You cannot create a doctrine based on a few verses that seem to say something while there are a great many that do say specifically what to believe but contradict the few.
---willa5568 on 5/16/11

Oh but they can, and do. Not just create but, build on to. A sign of the times.
The first time it was pointed out that a position i was looking for an answer on would be going against the prophets, raised my awareness of the danger of such.
Few doctrines today will acknowledge/research/Berean a scriptural prophets witness.
In the case of preachers, to acknowledge would be to admit and refute, what they've taught for years....they would lose face,position and money. Too scary. Sadducee's and Pharisee's had same deliema.
---Trav on 5/16/11


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samuel, my compliments! but, no debate... u kidding?. cluny, my compliments. if one rejects God's spirit and there is no separation, then aren't you just rejecting God?

there is no need to force the three revealed in Scripture into one. as it is now, it always was. Godliness was revealed not all at one time, but as it was willed.
1Ti 3:16 Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness: [which] was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory.

All three are spirit. Only one became a person, then returned to spirit.
---aka on 5/16/11


samuel,

It is not that those who disagree have to reject certain passages, because they do not. But understanding what the passage means without contradicting the rest of scripture is the thing desired to reach. You cannot create a doctrine based on a few verses that seem to say something while there are a great many that do say specifically what to believe but contradict the few.
---willa5568 on 5/16/11


Yes...IJohn 5:7, John 1:1, Genesis 1:26, Genesis 1:1
---Rickey on 5/16/11


Those who oppose belief in the Trinity say it is a man-made concept because the word Trinity does not appear in Scripture. This is a red herring of course as Trinity is only a convenient word we use to describe a Biblical reality.
---Warwick on 5/16/11


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Willa, you wrote "Second a person cannot be poured out or dwell in thousands or millions of people if it is a single person. So that is debatable." You are confusing 'person' with human. God (the Father, Son and Holy Spirit)is not a human but a Spirit. He is not limited in time or space, or in anyway that we are. He can be what we call 'everywhere' at any one time.
---Warwick on 5/16/11


its for sure thee are 3 separate forms mentioned God the father,God the son,and God the holy spirit,jesus said nhe must leave before the comforter could come.sounds like 3 to me,which can be called a TRINITY
---tom2 on 5/16/11


Dear Willam good point. Dear Cluny He is risen indeed. I wish it was so clear as to be beyond debate. To me it is clear and to most Christians.

But those who deabate againsst are correct it is not a direct statment. It is from the Abudance of Scritpure.

In order to reject the trinity people have to reject certain passages.

In order to accept the trinity we need to reconcile certain passages.

agape
---Samuel on 5/16/11


Cluny,

Acts 2:17 "...I will pour forth of my Spirit upon all flesh..."
Acts 1:8 "But ye shall receive power, when the Holy Spirit is come upon you"
Ephesians 1:13 "...in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise"

First it is of GODS SPIRIT, meaning it comes from God not is God. Second a person cannot be poured out or dwell in thousands or millions of people if it is a single person. So that is debatable.
---willa5568 on 5/16/11


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The trinity is documented and proven reality: and the unlearned and unfaithful doubt all manner of reality.
---Eloy on 5/16/11


Your first sentence is what is correct.

Your second sentence is wrong.

We are told in the NT, "Grieve not the Holy Spirit of God...." How can an impersonal power be grieved?

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/16/11


It is not only about what belief to have, but what does God want us to do about the Trinity? Jesus says, "'For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.'" (John 5:22-23) So, believing in the Trinity includes honoring the Son as we honor our Heavenly Father. So, Satan is against Jesus getting honor instead of Satan getting praise and honor. This can be why Satan is against the Trinity . . . not the Trinity as pushed by cruel religious dictators, but the way the Bible means it.
---Bill_willa6989 on 5/16/11


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