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Is It Deeds Or Works

Paul spoke of "Works", James spoke of "Deeds", is there a difference? If so, what's the difference?

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 ---David on 5/21/11
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David,
Good study to put Matthew 19:18-19 side by side with Romans 13:8-9.
Many christians say, commandments? Next they answer that they are not bound by commandments,
and that all they need do is to love their neighbor as themselves.

The point:
You mentioned five commandments Jesus gave to the man...
Did you notice that after the fifth he added, "...thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."?
Why specifics and then adding the generic in which perchance one can "briefly comprehend" the specifics?
Why specific in Ephesians 6:2-3?
Your father taught you a good lesson, Prov. 22:6.
---Nana on 5/29/11


As I have an understanding of a few languages I am always nervous about word for word translation. The aim of translation is to convey the meaning of language 1 into what it would mean to a person reading language 2. This is often not possible 'word for word' as you have done.

As I read it James is saying -what good is it a man says he has faith but has no works. If an expressed faith has no works it is useless.

I am not sure I understand your question about 2,12 and 3:1, can you please explain.
---Warwick on 5/29/11


Gordon-- So...when you are a sinner and totally undeserving, He Saves you by His Grace and not by any works you may have done.

But after you begin to follow Him, The blood of Jesus that was shed for the sins all the world is no longer sufficient, unless you prove yourself worthy.
Is that how it works?

How much fruit of good works must one produce to keep from being cast out by the God Who loves you.
---Donna66 on 5/29/11


James L. I was commenting that "everyday we have to CHOOSE to follow GOD" (Meaning, that it's not a "one-time Salvation Prayer and from then on, we somehow, automatically follow GOD). Then, after I posted that comment, you turned around a replied that what I had written, you had believed for 20 years, which you called a perverted "gospel". When, all I said is that our Relationship with GOD, is like a Marriage. Everyday we choose to love GOD, as HE definitely loves us. So, maybe you need to clarify what YOU were commenting about.
---Gordon on 5/29/11


As it relates to the discussion, what would have happened if you had absolutely refused to cut her grass when your dad told you?---James_L on 5/28/11

As any loving Father would do with a disobedient Son.... he would punish me for my disobedience.(Hebrews 12:6)

According to Jesus, when does God love you, is it before or is it after you keep the Lords commandments?
(John 14:21)
"He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father."
---David on 5/29/11




Gordon, A-men brother, "Thus let shine your light in the sight of persons, that they may see your Good Works, and glorify our Father which is in heaven." Mt.5:16.
---Eloy on 5/29/11


Gordon,
did I misword something? Where have I ever said that anyone is forced to "follow" God? Where is He going, anyway? He says that we are to draw near to Him.

Anyway, what does "free will" have to do with the ramifications of works?

Works are always done in free will, no one in their right mind would deny that.

But belief? That's another story. Please tell me one thing you have ever chosen to believe.

Maybe you chose to believe that you're alive.

Or you chose to believe that rain falls out of the clouds?

Will you do me a favor? Will you try to "choose" to believe the earth is flat, and let me know tomorrow if it's working?
---James_L on 5/28/11


David,
that's a great story about cutting grass and developing love for that woman.

But, as it relates to the discussion, what would have happened if you had absolutely refused to cut her grass when your dad told you?

Raised your fist at him and told him to go fly a kite?


Would your dad:
1) put you up for adoption
2) throw his hands up and say "never mind"
3) beat you into submission


You seem to think God will choose number 1 when you know good and well that's not what your dad would have done.

And Jesus taught how much more love God has for us than an earthly father.

I think God would choose number 2. Look what He did with Jonah
---James_L on 5/28/11


When I was young, my Father made me and my brothers mow the yard of an elderly widow who lived next door.
After we mowed her yard, she would always show her gratitude by rewarding us with a few pieces of candy.
After some time had passed, we helped this woman rake her yard and did many other chores that my Father did not make us do.

Without realizing it at the time, we had come to love this woman.
If my Father had not made us mow this womans yard, we would have never come to love her.
Has anyone ever noticed that the five commandments Jesus gave to the man in (Matthew 19:18-19) were acts which pertain to our love for man, and not our love for God?
---David on 5/28/11


Gordon and Samuel:
EVERY Christian will agree that we must produce good works. That is a given.

The only question is...do good works gain us salvation, or do they grow out of the Salvation we have been given.

If a Christian is found lacking, will he lose his salvation...or the rewards given at the judgement? (Interpretation of scripture varies)
For God is the one who knows the true quality of our works...whether they be as fine gold or of wood, hay and stubble. Men have been known to confuse the two.
---Donna66 on 5/28/11




jamesl, so says the sinner to the saints.
---Eloy on 5/28/11


"Works are not words", Jesus does not say, "Well believed, you good and faithful believer, enter you into the joy of the Lord." No, by no means, else satan whom believes strongly in the Lord with fear and trembling, would also be welcomed into the kingdom of heaven. But instead Jesus says, "Well Done, you good and faithful Servant, enter you into the joy of the Lord."
---Eloy on 5/28/11


James L, We human beings don't have free-will? We were created in the very Image of GOD, Who is the Ultimate Free-Will Being. After we are saved, we retain our free-will, we are not FORCED to follow GOD. GOD wants us to love, serve and follow Him from our hearts, our "new hearts of flesh", that is, not from our old evil and wicked hearts of stone. Like a marriage 'tween a man and a woman...A man wants his wife to love him everyday from her heart, out of her own free-will. He doesn't want to have to "make her" love him, 'cause that wouldn't be real. It must come from her own free-will choice, everyday, to love him. It's the same with GOD. For, He is the Designer of love relationships that are freely given and freely received.
---Gordon on 5/28/11


Donna: "Isn't this sentence an oxymoron... an internally conflicting statement?"

What does the Bible say?

Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Jas 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
---jerry6593 on 5/28/11


Gordon and Eloy,

What you write is exactly what I was raised believing.

For 20 years I believed that perverted "gospel" or yours.
---James_L on 5/28/11


When I was young my Father forbid smoking.
I feared my father, but smoked anyway.
One day I got caught and I was punished.
I never smoked again.
It was not the whipping, that caused me to stop, it was the look of disapointment in my Fathers face.
I hurt him, and I loved him very deeply.

The greatest weapon we have to overcome Satan is Love.
Our love for one another, and our love for God.
It is through our love for one another, that the Love of God is perfected in us.

When you do acts of love for your brother, God shows his love to you.
Gods love is shown in blessings and answered prayers.
When you know that it is God who gives you these Good gifts, then you will come to love him as your Father.
---David on 5/28/11


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Eloy is right. Salvation involves a two-way Relationship between GOD and man. But, not just in the relational context. But, in ONE doing Their part and the other doing their part. Both parties have to be willing to think, say and do what is required to maintain the complete Relationship. Even though He is "GOD", He still has set up the relationship system to be based on the person's free-will of choosing. Everyday we Saints have to CHOOSE to follow GOD, if we want to live in GOD's Heaven. For we could turn away from GOD at one point, if we really wanted to. And, GOD would eventually let us, if we really wanted to. Not because He wants it that way, but, because He respects our free-will. He forces HIS Will on no one.
---Gordon on 5/28/11


The soul with good works indeed rightly earns heaven, even as Christ was obedient up to death and he went about doing good and is highly exalted above all: the workless soul does not earn heaven, but the wages earned for the workless soul is hell.
---Eloy on 5/28/11


Works save. If Noah did not work to build the ark, he would have perished with the sinners. Consider When God commanded Lot, Up and leave this city, if Lot would have said, No, I am just resting for I am not saved by works. Or else when God told Noah Build an ark for salvation, and Noah refused saying, No, not of works am I saved, But you build the ark yourself with your grace. Or even when God told Moses, Go speak to Pharoah and tell him to let my people go, but Moses would answer, No, for by your grace your people will be let go, and not by my going nor working. Where do you think Lot and Noah and Moses would be, and the people, if they foolishly sinned by disobeying God's Command of Works For Salvation?
---Eloy on 5/27/11


Donna66, The shed Blood of YAHUSHUA (JESUS) is what opens the Door of Opportunity to get into Heaven. No good works of any man or woman can open that Door. Once someone trusts in the Saviour, by His Blood, in Faith, he or she can then "work out their Salvation with fear and trembling" to strive for the Crown of Life, to overcome and to endure until the End to the saving of the soul. If they should fall away, or shrink back, become a castaway (I CORINTHIANS 9:27) and remain in that backslidden condition, whether by unrepentant, wilfull sin(s), and/or by the lack of any Fruits of Good works, as a dead and dried up branch, they are, then, cast into the Fire (Hell).
---Gordon on 5/27/11


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Samuel--//
No. Luk 17:10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.//

How does this support your other statement, i.e. that "Works cannot earn your way to heaven, but the lack of them can keep you out."? Nobody is against good works. Their relationship to salvation, is the question.
---Donna66 on 5/27/11


Warwick,

In James 2:14, "claims" to have faith is an interpretive translation, not what the text actually says. Many paraphrase translations word it that way because they are trying to tell you not only what it says, but what it means.

What does James 2:14 say literally?

"What the advantage, brothers of me, if faith might say some to have works but not might have? Not is able the faith to save him?"

There is no doubt in the text that the man actually has faith.

What do you make of 2:12 and 3:1 speaking of a believer's judgment?

Is this not at the Bema? What kind of "saved" could happen there?
---James_L on 5/27/11


"jerry6593 --
//Works cannot earn your way to heaven, but the lack of them can keep you out.//" it's either part our both parts of this statement is true then salvation is not a free gift of God. Works or the lack of them has nothing to do with your salvation rather works have to do with your rewards(called crowns in the Bible).
---mima on 5/27/11


jerry6593 --
//Works cannot earn your way to heaven, but the lack of them can keep you out.//

Isn't this sentence an oxymoron... an internally conflicting statement?
If the first phrase in your sentence is true, the second cannot be, or vice versa.
---Donna66

No. Luk 17:10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

Do a study of the servent imagery in the teachings of JESUS.
---Samuel on 5/27/11


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jerry6593 --
//Works cannot earn your way to heaven, but the lack of them can keep you out.//

Isn't this sentence an oxymoron... an internally conflicting statement?
If the first phrase in your sentence is true, the second cannot be, or vice versa.
---Donna66 on 5/27/11


Truly, truly there is no salvation without works, for my Almighty Jesus says, "For the Son of man will come in the glory who's Father of him, with the angels of him, then he will reward to each according to the Works of them. The Son of man will send forward his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do sin, and will throw them into a furnace of fire, there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth: Then will the righteous shine forward as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who has ears to hear, let them hear." Mt.16:27+ 13:41-43. Please Read- Mt.25:31-46.
---Eloy on 5/27/11


Works and deeds are the same thing.

Works cannot earn your way to heaven, but the lack of them can keep you out.
---jerry6593 on 5/27/11


Warwick (part 3)

Sorry this got so wordy.

James continues through this "passage" by explaining how faith is "perfected" (not verified) through works, and that my works will "justify" me in believing I will have a reward at the Bema.

Read the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus said the same thing. Do things in secret, we will be rewarded. Don't be a hypocrite, we will be rewarded, etc.

The clear implication from Jesus is that if we are hypocrites, we will not be rewarded.
---James_L on 5/26/11


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"James does not say that faith always produces works."
Very true!

1 John 3:18 "My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue, but in deed and in truth."
(Compare 1 John 3:17 to James 2:13-16)

Call it a job, duty or Love, as the Lord said "Watch and Pray",

1Cor. 9:27 "But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway."
Luke 14:34-35 "Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned?
It is neither fit for the land, nor yet for the dunghill, but men cast it out. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."
---Nana on 5/26/11


James I am not sure what David believes. I can't help thinking there is something behind what he says.

As I see it James is saying good works (what God has ordained for us) are a vital component of the Christian walk. He talks of people who "claim" to have faith but have no "deeds." He says such faith is "useless", "dead." I would agree. I am always challenged to do more and cannot understand how people can call themselves Christian but have no apparent interest in doing good works.

Works before salvation by faith are useless, and works after salvation by faith are necessary. James doubts the freeloader was ever saved, I am sure he is correct!
---Warwick on 5/27/11


Did the Jews keep the Law of Moses because they loved God, or was it because they feared God?
Why did God make his covenant with Abraham?

It was because Abraham grew to love God, and Abraham's obedience was made perfect in his love for God.
(1 John 2:5)
But whoso ever keeps his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

The Jews kept the Law out of their fear for God, not out of their love for God.
Since the Law of Moses was kept out of fear and not out of Love, Paul calls this obedience works.
But if the Law is kept out of Love, Paul calls this obedience Good works.

One Law of Christ, is to give to the poor.
If you give to the poor, this is an act of Love!
---David on 5/27/11


James L, What is a body created for? To be lived in. For a soul to indwell in it and live in it. What is a battery for? To give life and energy to an electrical appliance of some sort. Those are the reasons those two things exist. Is that not true? (I know it is, but, do you?) If there is no life or soul in a body, and it is "dead", What is it good for? Wormfood?? If there is no juice or cell-life in a battery, what, then, is it really good for? Taking up space?? Collecting dust?? A dead body and a dead battery are useless because they can't DO what they were intended for. They are buried or tossed out. Likewise,...what use does a dead faith really serve? What is it good for? It can't DO what it's supposed to. It's useless.
---Gordon on 5/26/11


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Warwick,
I agree with you that we are justified only through faith in Christ. I also agree with the apostle Paul that it is by faith "apart from works" meaning "whether you have works or not"

Sound like Antinomianism? It's not. Paul was accused of the same thing (Rom 3:8)

How can one be a believer and not have fellowship with Christ? That's where all the warnings come into the NT. It is possible.

That's where I contend that you and David are saying the same thing. He says they lose their salvation, you say they never had it to begin with.

Both of you would agree that the person went to hell so why argue specifics?

cont
---James_L on 5/26/11


Warwick (cont),
James does not say that faith always produces works. Two unfortunate things about that passage makes it one of the most misunderstood in the NT.

First, 2:14-2:26 are sectioned out as being a "passage".

Second is people see "saved" (v14) and "justified" (v24) and think "go to heaven"

But, if you back up to verse 12, James is speaking to believers about being judged. Where and why? At the Bema, for rewards. 3:1 also mentions this judgment.

He asks what if I arrive there, and my faith is not accompanied by works? Can faith alone "save" me from losing rewards? No. Even Paul said some will suffer loss when their work is burned.

cont
---James_L on 5/26/11


James, Romans ch. 4 says Abraham was saved by his faith, not works. It compares works to a human job where wages are not paid as a gift but as an obligation for work done. But Ephesians says salvation is Gods gift, so it cannot be gained by any works, or it is no longer a gift, is it?

Verse 5, to which you refer says a man is saved by his faith.

James says people saved by faith will be recognized by their post-salvation works. This does not mean they are saved in any way by works, but show they are forgiven by faithfully carrying out the works God has commanded the faithful to do.
---Warwick on 5/26/11


James,

how can you be a believer and not have fellowship with Christ?
He said abide in Him which will produce good fruit. If you don't abide in the vine you are cut off as a branch because you are dead, your faith is not real. These two sum up the commandments, love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength and your neighbor as yourself. As I said you can do all of the works in the world, but if it is not love that motivates it, it is vanity. Jesus showed us the ultimate expression of faith in God which is our example.
---willa5568 on 5/26/11


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Warwick,
I understand where you're at, but a little bit of seeing things through to their conclusion (or aftermath) may help me clarify


If James 2 espouses a "fruit" understanding of works, then he is still at odds with Paul who wrote "but to him who does not work" (Rom 4:5)

Believers in Christ will attempt to measure their standing with God by their works to see if they are "in the faith". It has been said that the closer we are to God, the more sensitive to sin we are. I agree, but that would mean that the closer we are to God, the less likely we are to think of ourselves as bearing good fruit. That should dissolve all assurance.

cont.
---James_L on 5/26/11


Warwick (cont),

"fruit" contradicts Paul that we are justified by faith "apart from works". If works are the inevitable results of faith, then they go hand in hand, and are not apart at all.

it means that if someone can have faith and still go to hell. But Jesus said whoever believes in Him would not perish.

it must hypotheticize all the warnings against falling away, etc. That leaves some NT writers writing to non-believers, exhorting them to works instead of faith.

All in all, it means that faith is not the only criterion by which entrance into heaven will be granted. For it would be said to some "but where are your works?"

And that is what David espouses, too
---James_L on 5/26/11


James, thanks for your comments. Maybe I have missunderstood David's point.

To me Scripture says we are saved by faith, through God's grace "and not by works so no one can boast." Surely then it is very clear, we are saved by faith, not works?

Some say James promotes salvation by works, which would put him in direct opposition to Paul. However James doesn't contradict Paul but says we are saved by faith alone but faithful followers of God gladly undertake the good works He has ordained for us to do. These works are proof of our salvation but they do not save us.

David appears to me to be promoting something different to this.
---Warwick on 5/26/11


Willa,
Nowhere does the bible say that love is the evidence of true faith in Christ. Love is the evidence of fellowship with Christ, which some believers have and others don't.


David and Warwick,
I honestly don't understand why you bother arguing against each other, because you both are saying the same thing. Gordon summed it up for you both. You both believe that faith is not adequate. One says works are the root of justification, the other says works are the fruit.

Either way, you both are saying that only those who obey God will go to heaven.


You both put the onus back on the believer, and neither of you can offer assurance of eternal life
---James_L on 5/26/11


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1Corinthians 13:1-3 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

You can do all of the good works in the world, even to the point of giving your body to be burned, and still do it without love. This is not a general love. It has a definite article in front of it making it a specific kind of love, Gods love. Paul goes on to explain the evidence of true faith in Christ, which is love.
---willa5568 on 5/26/11


\\Works are not the evidence of faith, they are the evidence of love.\\
---Nana on 5/26/11


WOW !!

That is exactly what I have said before.

Good stuff !!!


David, consider:

James 2:22
"You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was made perfect"

Hebrews 2:10
For it was fitting for Him...to perfect the author of their salvation through suffering

Even Jesus was brought to perfection. Your view suggests that our faith has to be perfect for us to go to heaven. Are you also suggesting that the One who made heaven was not allowed in until He was perfected?
---James_L on 5/26/11


They are the same. A person who does a good deed is a person who does a good work: Faith or belief is 100% dead without works: for works is the obedience, and the proof of faith in Jesus. All fruitless and barren trees will be thrown into the fire and they are burned. Inspite of faith and confessions, if one has no works prooving their confession, then their words of profession are worthless lip-service, for there is No Jesus evident in their heart and in their life.
---Eloy on 5/26/11


Warwick, The Once Saved Always Saved (false) doctrine has many Church-goers confused. Saints DO have to strive to live in Holiness, to strive to not sin and to produce Good works for these are a testimony and RESULT of their true Faith. GOD will allow NO ONE, Saved or unsaved, who practices sin into HIS sinless, Holy Heaven. It is a Gift that the Lord YAHUSHUA (JESUS) shed His Blood. For, without His Sacrifice NO ONE could enter Heaven, with or without Good works. We must have faith in YAHUSHUA. But, we also must remain in Him, willingly. He does not force anyone to stay in Him. Some fall away. Some choose to stay.
---Gordon on 5/26/11


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Some really good points made here.

Love that does not work or perform deeds is not really love. To say you love a person but not want to help them shows your love is false.
---Samuel on 5/26/11


James L, A "dead faith" is worthless because it does not please GOD. The Bible says that "Without Faith, it is impossible to please GOD."! If Faith is dead, it's not active and not alive for GOD to work through. Dead faith is as good as NO FAITH AT ALL.
---Gordon on 5/26/11


>>Therefore the unsaved will not be judged by their works. If they could be Christ died for nothing.<<
Romans 1.

Works are not the evidence of faith, they are the evidence of love.
Matt 7:20 "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."
Luke 8:15 "But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience."

John 14:15 "If ye love me, keep my commandments."
Mind you, loving Christ is loving God and man.
The work of a servant is his master's commandments and more. (Luke 17:10)
---Nana on 5/26/11


Warwick
There are two predominate Doctrines in the Church, one of Works and one of no works.
Paul's Letters support both.
But will both doctrines lead to salvation?

Paul's letters address both the Law of Christ, as in (Romans 2:6) and the Law of Moses.
The difference?
The Law of Christ(Good works) is kept out of our Love for God, the Law of Moses(works) was not.

(James 2) simply states that you can say that you love your Brother, but without "Works", your words have no value.
It's the same with those who say they believe in Jesus Christ, but do not do as he tells them to do, this worship of no value.
And like the wheat chaff, they will be burned in the fire."
---David on 5/26/11


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David, it is dangerous to build a doctrine upon a verse. Ephesians 2:8,9 says we are saved by faith, our salvation being a gift of God, not by works therefore no one can boast.

Therefore the unsaved will not be judged by their works. If they could be Christ died for nothing.

James solves the dilema, telling us faith without works is dead. He says good works are evidence of salvation, not unto salvation. He says those who claim to have faith, but have no works, have no faith at all. They are refusing to do the good works God has ordained and are therefore in rebellion. And will be judged so. In correct context Romans 2:5-7 does not contradict what Ephesians and and James say.
---Warwick on 5/25/11


David,
Eternal life is more than just going to heaven.

In scripture, having eternal life now is always through faith only.

But attaining eternal life in the future is always through works.

notice in Romans 8 it says to attain glory and honor, which is what Jesus attained by dying on the cross (Hebrews 2).

Did Jesus get "saved" ?
---James_L on 5/25/11


Matthew 25:31 to 46.
No extolling there. Just a simple left-right, take your pick kind of promise and revelation.
Maybe somebody around here should start extolling righteousness?
---Nana on 5/24/11


David where in the NT does it say we "we will be Judged and saved by our works."--Warwick on 5/24/11

Thank you Warwick, I was hoping someone would challenge me on that statement.
(Romans 2:5-7)NKJV
But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who will render to each one according to his deeds. Eternal Life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality.

Clearly written, and with no mystery.
---David on 5/25/11


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\\can you give an example of someone in the Bible who believed God and did not do as God commanded them to do?\\
---David on 5/24/11


John 12:42-43
Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue. For they loved the approval of men rather than the apporoval of God.
---James_L on 5/24/11


David where in the NT does it say we "we will be Judged and saved by our works."

Interestingly there is a whole Chapter (Hebrerws 11) devoted to extolling faith, but I don't know of one extolling works.

Isn't it clear the works James speaks of are those God commands the already faithful to do? That works are proof of an individuals faith? He says faith (which comes first) and is invisible, is made known, and perfected by the works we can see a faithful person do. That anyone who says he has faith but has no works, has no real faith at all.
---Warwick on 5/24/11


Gordon, I would suspect that you, along with many who share your opinion, know nothing about context.

James is speaking to believers about being judged by that Law of Liberty (2:12). In 3:1 he says that teachers will receive a stricter judgment.

Do you know where believers will be judged? And for what purpose?

You also didn't anser my question about dead batteries, bodies, etc. Are they not real because they're dead?

How would your mechanic look at you if you told him "I thought it was a real battery, but it turned out to be fake because it's dead."
---James_L on 5/24/11


Gordon,

how would people look at you if you went to a funeral and told everyone that the body in the casket is fake?

IT'S DEAD, Gordon, not fake.

I agree, dead faith is worthless. But, worthless for what? That's where you disagree with scripture.

You have Paul and James at odds, and because you have ignored the context in James 2. It's that simple. Faith without works is useless at the Judgment Seat of Christ. But faith WITH works is useless at the Great White Throne

God's way to heaven or the highway to hell, I agree. And God's way is through faith, totally naked, all by itself, without any works.
---James_L on 5/24/11


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29 Jesus answered, The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.
---Christina on 5/23/11

Good verses Christina, but can you give an example of someone in the Bible who believed God and did not do as God commanded them to do?

How do we know, for example, that Abraham believed Gods promise to him?
Abraham was told to leave his homeland, and Abraham left his homeland.(Hebrews 11:8)
How do we know that Noah believed Gods promise to him?
Noah built the Ark.(Hebrews 11:7)
How does God know that we believe his promise to us, if you do not do what he tells us to do? (Matthew 7:26)
---David on 5/24/11


One of my favorites:
John 6: 17-29
27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.

28 Then they asked him, What must we do to do the works God requires?

29 Jesus answered, The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.
---Christina on 5/23/11


That's funny, I see 5 references to 'deed' by Paul and only 1 by James in KJV.
Maybe some clarification as to BCV and what translation you are using.
---micha9344 on 5/22/11

Micha
You are correct, and I thank you for the correction.

There are many places in the Bible, including many in the New Testament that state that we will be Judged and saved by our works.
But Paul also says that we are saved, not by works, but by the Grace of God.
The only logical conclusion is that there are works that are regarded as "Good Works", and Works that are reguarded as "Dead works".

What's the difference between the two?
What are "Good Works" by which we shall be judged?
---David on 5/23/11


James L, If you have a faith but you're not producing a fruitful Life of Love and Good Works, then, it's not a Faith at all. That's the point. Because GOD is the ONE Who has determined that a Faith must produce Love and Good Works by the Power of the Holy Spirit. That's a part of the New Life of the Born Again Believer. You say that (even) a "dead faith" is real. Then, what is the Dead faith having faith in??! It ain't in GOD. 'Cause it's not producing what GOD is wanting and expecting. With GOD, it's HIS Way of doing things, or, it's the Highway....to Hell. It is that simple.
---Gordon on 5/23/11


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James L, Read JAMES 2:20-26! "But wilt thou know, O vain man, that FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD?" "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead, also." In GOD's economy, if one's faith is not producing Good Works, then, to HIM, it is a dead faith. Why? Because it's not producing the fruits of Good Works that HE requires. Dead faith is as useless as a dead tree branch. It gets tossed in the fire to burn. So does the useless Servant that produces no Good Works. He/she gets cast into the Fire of Hell. If they die in fruitlessness. Read, also, JOHN 15:5-6 and MATTHEW 25:30! It's tough stuff, but, it's Bible.
---Gordon on 5/23/11


James L, "Faith without Works is dead." That's a direct quote from the Holy Bible. What you just said is in contradiction to the Holy Scriptures. In fact, I can hardly believe that you even really believe what you just said. It's totally anti-Scriptural. If one's faith is not producing Good Works it is a worthless faith. And, it shows that one is not following GOD.
---Gordon on 5/23/11


"To say that a person can have faith and go to hell is heresy."
---James_L on 5/22/11


"If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing."

"And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love."


"salvation by works doctrine"
Love God and Neighbour
---Nana on 5/23/11


\\must produce Works or Deeds...for if not, their faith is considered no real faith at all. It's a "dead faith".\\
---Gordon on 5/21/11


Considering James said "just as the body without the spirit is dead"

Would you then conclude that a "dead" body is not real?

How about a "dead" battery not being a real battery?

or a "dead" electrical circuit is not a real electrical circuit?


Dead faith is real. Dead faith is saving faith. Dead faith will be useless when we are judged by the Law of Liberty (James 2:12) to determine our rewards.

To say that a person can have faith and go to hell is heresy.
---James_L on 5/22/11


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Deeds and works are one and the same thing, We are saved not by works but by his grace. By our deeds we will be known for it is from the fruit of the heart that our deeds emanate.
---henry on 5/22/11


That's funny, I see 5 references to 'deed' by Paul and only 1 by James in KJV.
Maybe some clarification as to BCV and what translation you are using.
My inital respoonse, however, depending upon the original Greek, is that there is only translational differences.
---micha9344 on 5/22/11


I do not know of any place that James used the word "deeds" plural. There is only one place in the new testament were the word "deed" differs from the word "work" ["ergon" 'toil' as "that which one undertakes or sets out to accomplish by hand or mind"], and that place is James 1:25 were the word translated 'deed' is the Greek word "poiesis" and means "an action or performance, in the obedience one renders to the law."
---josef on 5/21/11


Hi, David (c: Paul says, "as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse," in Galatians 3:10, and in Titus 3:5 he also says, "not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us". So, works of the law and our own righteousness do nothing. However James, in chapter two of his epistle says, "You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only." (James 2:24) And his examples of works are works of personal loving (James 2:14-26). And Paul speaks of how essential it is to have "faith working through love," in Galatians 5:6.
---Bill_willa6989 on 5/21/11


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i see none,all should be done in the spirit or they have no reward.
---tom2 on 5/21/11


Look at Matthew 25, and see that the goats' faith is never questioned.

Christ is risen!
---Cluny on 5/21/11


does not matter...if anything is done through the Spirit, it is of God.
---aka on 5/21/11


David anyone familiar with this site would know this topic has been well covered. Done to death in fact. Scripture is clear: we are saved by faith (which itself is a gift), as Paul and others say, but when saved we have works to do, as James says. There is no conflict between the two.

The debate is fueled mainly by those of certain denominational groups which have a nonBiblical salvation by works doctrine.
---Warwick on 5/21/11


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its who your serving thats important,yourself?the flesh?or GOD?if your life is self centered,where you control your choices,and decisions,wothout regard to the word,then it makes no difference what you do,you arent serving GOD.so you have no reward.layup treasures in heaven where moth and rust,blah,blah,blah.
---tom2 on 5/21/11


No, there is no difference. We are saved by Grace not works, BUT, saving Faith will produce good works! Many people think that Paul and James were at "odds" with their teachings, but, they really aren't saying anything contradictory. Paul said simply "We are saved by faith in Jesus Christ", and then James says yes, but, show me your works after your supposed salvation. If we say we have faith and do not the things Jesus Christ instructed us to do, we are deceived and still in need of salvation.
---tommy3007 on 5/21/11


Hmmm. Seems to me, "Work" is something that is undertaken for a particular purpose. A "deed" is an act or gesture, often considered illustrative of intentions, one's character.

To me, "work" implies purposeful action, while a deed may be either planned or spontaneous.

For example, reciting a prayer may be a "work" intended enhance a person's standing with God.But the same person may perform deeds that are far less "Christian".

We are saved by neither "works" nor "deeds", but by the Grace of God. However, He may judge both our works and our deeds.
---Donna66 on 5/21/11


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