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Should Pastors Get Sued

Harold camping caused unspeakable damage. Should people sue pastors for causing pain?

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 ---nicole on 6/17/11
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Thanks for your response.
Have you read Keith Windshuttle's book "The Fabrication of Aboriginal History Part 3: the Stolen Generation"?
This historian is hated by the Left as he exposed their lies.

The term stolen generation is a deception from the liberal/Left historians and activists.

I listened to an interview of an retired policeman from that era of history and there was no Darwinist motive in his actions to protect part Aboriginal children from the neglect that they were suffering. He even said he would do it again. For him it was not about race but concern for the lives of the children.
---Haz27 on 6/30/11

Race, as used by Darwin, refers to varieties, not to human races. It simply points out that some variations that occur naturally survive in greater numbers. Origin of Species hardly refers to humans at all.

Of course, any excuse is better than no excuse, if you want to commit genocide. We were not better on this continent.
---atheist on 6/30/11

Atheist you are entertaining. You trawl antiChristian sites looking for something to justify your stance.

You do not believe the Bible so why quote Exodus 21:20,21?

You would have us believe this shows God instituted slavery!

Read Exodus 21:18,19 "If people quarrel and one person hits another with a stone or with their fist and the victim does not die but is confined to bed, the one who struck the blow will not be held liable if the other can get up and walk around outside with a staff...."

From this quote you would have us believe God ordained assault.

See Matthew 19:8 did God institute divorce also?
---Warwick on 6/30/11

Haz, having met quite a few of the stolen generation I noticed none were 'full-blood' Aboriginal, but part 'white.' Because of Darwin's claims, accepted and promoted by scientists, people came to believe Aboriginals were primitives who would become extinct in time. But those with some 'white blood' should be rescued from the Aboriginal camps to be educated because this 'white blood' would confer upon them the ability to learn.

The subtitle of Darwin's Origin of Species was 'Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life.'

Institutionalized racism, from Darwinism

You can read about this in the Australian National Archives. Ehibition: Between Two Worlds, Black and White and Shades of Grey.
---Warwick on 6/30/11

Warwick, So equality involves the keeping of slaves?

If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken, for he is his property."
---atheist on 6/30/11

May I point out that the Orthodox Church is the only church to declare racism (ethnophyletism) a heresy?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/30/11


so where do teachings like 'cafeteria' christians come from?
what about self denial?

it seem that when you exercise choice, & individuality, christianity has a way to demonize it.
(sin pride arrogance)
and when people suffer - 'wash your hands'

just like the fox news channel when you disagree with them you are called UPATRIOTIC, liberal but when fox brown nose with the GOP it is called 'fair & balanced'
---mike on 6/30/11

'They will heed the Holy Ghost and the Holy Ghost will keep them from carnal foolishness'

so pat robertson is filled with the holy spirit when he 'prophesized' about mass murders in 07, tsunami hitting the NW or is it bec. democrats are the majority in 2006.

filled with the holy spirit? pastors know how to exploit, manipulate people using the bible - then call it strong faith when they earn $100,000/year or they're filled with the holy spirit.
---mike on 6/30/11

Warwick, I read many of your posts and agree with much of what you say.

However, you said regarding Australian Aboriginals under Darwinist beliefs
"Racism at its worst, with evil consequences."

I'm curious what you are referring to.
The alleged genocide and stolen generations argument have been proven to be liberal/Left fabrications by historian Keith Windshuttle.

Being an Australian you will recall the History Wars we had here when liberal/Left historians and media (ABC & SBS) got upset about their version of history being proved false.

I hope you are not referring to the liberal/Left version.
---Haz27 on 6/30/11

Atheist, you are incorrect. Scripture decrees humans are created in God's image, therefore equal. No mention of races.

We are commanded to serve others, treating them as we would like to be treated.

Conversely Darwin, writes about favoured races, and survival of the fittest. He wrote about 'primitive coloured races' which will not survive competition with the favoured white Europeans.

He decreed Australian aboriginals were missing links, not fully human. Racism at its worst, with evil consequences.

Stalin, Hitler et al were in line with Darwinism agreeing there is no God, no cosmic rules of morality-survival of the fittest rules.

We see social Darwinism in the slaughter of millions of unborn children.
---Warwick on 6/30/11

Atheist the point is obvious. He was saying that having rejected the notion of God 'we' the individual are no longer constrained to obey "pre-existing cosmic rules" i.e. God's rules. We are free to do what we like, and we are responsible for no one else. And this is exactly what we see today in our self-absorbed, materialistic, purposeless, immoral, violent post-Christian western culture.

Stalin and others, not constrained by democracy put atheism, based upon evolutionism into effect, and the outcome was suffering and murder, of a scale which is hard to comprehend.

And you honestly state "If everyone believed as you do (your beliefs in what Jesus said) the world would be a wonderful place." Amen brother!
---Warwick on 6/29/11

Warwick, there is no philosophy of atheism, nor a scripture.

That Stalin bastardized Darwin as an excuse to do bad things, is no different that someone using your scripture, interpreted for their own purposes, as an excuse to do bad things also. There is no difference, nor a guarantee that people will behave morally using any source. When someone does bad things using scripture as his reason or excuse, you will say that he is not a true Christian. For me it's easier. Darwin's book is a book and that is all. If Stalin read it and used it as an excuse, that because he was one sick sick megalomaniac, and not because he was an atheist that prayed to Darwin.
---atheist on 6/29/11

Atheist I believe Stalin the mass murderer adequately explains the horror of atheism. Certainly there are atheists who live 'good' lives but they do so in direct opposition to the imorality their philosophy promotes.


"Reading Darwin had an enormous impact upon me. It corroborated my defiance of God and inspired me to systematically break all the Ten Commandments, which I now realized were only chains. Thought I had stolen and lied before, I now stole and lied with a higher purpose-freedom of self. And the effects on my political philosophy were equally lasting..." Richard Lourie, 1999 the autobiography of Joseph Stalin. Counterpoint , Washington D.C., page 36.
---Warwick on 6/29/11

I believe he was referencing genetic engineering. How does this apply to your point? What point?
---atheist on 6/29/11

Atheist I think the following adequately illustrates my point.

"We no longer feel ourselves to be guests in someone's else's home and therefore obliged to make our behavior conform with a set of pre-existing cosmic rules. It is our creation now. We make the rules. We establish the parameters of reality. We create the world, and because we do, we no longer feel beholden to outside forces. We no longer have to justify our behavior, for we are now the architects of the universe. We are responsible to nothing outside ourselves. for we are the kingdom, the power, and the glory forever and ever." Jeremy Rifkin, Algeny, p. 244 (Viking Press, New York), 1983.
---Warwick on 6/29/11


I meant "mental health hold" from Donna's earlier post. But I don't know what that is either. It may be a special type of Vulcan mind meld...

"...not known cause suicides..." I could argue the point based on facts, but undoubtedly the response would be that it is not something done by true Christians.

Warwick, right. If everyone believed as you do (your beliefs in what Jesus said) the world would be a wonderful place. But if everyone was an atheist, (believing and acting as Hitler, your favorite 'atheist', the world would be awful.
---atheist on 6/29/11

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\\And people who believe that they will carried up into the sky to meet god, on a specific date, or even just some time in the future do not need to be placed under a mental hold?\\

atheist, what is a mental hold?

Do you have any idea yourself?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/28/11


They were Gnashing at the teeth and pounding their chest, Tearing off their robes as He spoke the Truth.

The could not stand to hear him as he exposed their Hyprocrasies.

What the Pastor said "Did not tickle their ears" but he brought the light of G-d and expose them,,, till they cried out loud because they could hear no more.

and so they gathered together and plotted to stoned him!

But they failed!
---John on 6/28/11

Atheist if we take Jesus seriously, accepting His forgiveness, and living the life He commands we do, what are the negative consequences for us (or society) if we should ultimately discover it to be false?

I say we lose nothing.

Conversely if we take atheism seiously and thereby reject Jesus, and ultimately find out He and His words were true the negative consequences for us (and society) are eternal.

This truly is being mislead!
---Warwick on 6/28/11

atheist--People didn't believe the Orson Wells Hoax for long. Christianity has been around for centuries and is not known cause suicides.

You are entitled to your opinion that the Bible is fiction. It's not worth my time to argue the point with you. But you will be the loser if you are wrong.
---Donna66 on 6/27/11

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Yes. I think maybe the better point is that like Orsen Wells radio broadcast, the Bible is but fiction, and people who take it too seriously, or take those who claim special knowledge based on it, are likely to be misled, or mislead themselves.
---atheist on 6/27/11

I heard a story years ago that Orson Wells read a STORY over the radio about us being attacked by aliens. Many people listening thought it was true and happening that very minute. People were actually killing themselves, jumping out of windows etc.
---kathr4453 on 6/27/11

If the situation is as you say, the woman belongs in prison (or a mental institution). The issue of sanity would have to determined by the court.
---Donna66 on 6/26/11


She did slit their throats and hers. She failed at killing them and herself. She is in prison now. All three lived.

How do you find those who are likely to commit such acts among those who are, (in my view) crazy thinking to begin with?

Maybe we should all learn to think critically and try to eliminate beliefs in such thinking to begin with, rather than make it normal through religious belief.
---atheist on 6/26/11

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Atheist-- possibly that mother could be placed on a mental health hold for endangering her children. The others who believed were foolish , not harmful to others.
---Donna66 on 6/26/11

Athiest, from teh beginning of time, there have always been false prophets. WE are to know the WORD in order to know truth from a lie. WE are also instructed not to follow the teachings of MAN, but God's Word alone. Look at those who followed some nut to catch a comet ending in suicide. Or Jim Jones...all suiside.

Satan is the author of CONFUSION. NO ONE KNOWS that date except the Father. All we are told to do is BE READY.
---kathr4453 on 6/26/11

So when false prophets come claiming Jesus is here, or there or in the desert, and we are told not to believe them, then Lawyers are going to have a hay day-pay day that day.

---kathr4453 on 6/26/11


And people who believe that they will carried up into the sky to meet god, on a specific date, or even just some time in the future do not need to be placed under a mental hold?

There were suicide/murder attempts as a result of Camping's prediction. I do not know if any in the U.S. were successful. A mother failed in her attempt to kill herself and two children in Lancaster, California. She didn't want her children to go through being left behind if it worked out that way.
---atheist on 6/25/11

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How many people could be persuaded to jump off a cliff? Normal common sense protects most people from from being so persuaded. I'm sure some would say, "ok, you first!".

In fact, the man who tries to persuade others to do this should probably be placed under a mental health hold.
---Donna66 on 6/25/11


If he were misleading people into jumping off a cliff, should he be stopped?
---atheist on 6/25/11

atheist--I didn't say he was HONEST. He may not have been. But He may have actually believed what he preached...that makes him misled, not dishonest. In any case, he is not guilty of criminal fraud.
---Donna66 on 6/24/11

Those preachers that have made the ministry a career should get sued when in the wrong.
Those preachers that have a calling as a minister probably won't get into that position. They will heed the Holy Ghost and the Holy Ghost will keep them from carnal foolishness.
These "counselors" and such are associated with a career.
The minister that merely states what the word says in any given matter are associated with a calling.
No need to sue them.
---Frank on 6/24/11

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You are probably right. It is in a way not different that if I were to believe Gordon when he told be I was going to burn forever in Hell.
---atheist on 6/24/11

Donna66 and atheist:

There are different legal standards for what is actionable. For criminal fraud, one must knowingly make deceptive claims in order to achieve (or attempt to achieve) financial gain. While Camping's organization certainly benefitted from some people donating their life savings based on believing his predictions (later demonstrated to be false), there is no evidence he knew or even believed that his predictions were false, so there is no fraud here.

However, as far as civil lawsuits to, that is another matter. If people suffered financially based on reliance on promises he made, he could be considered (at least partially) liable for their losses.

(I am not a lawyer, these are merely informed opinions.)
---StrongAxe on 6/24/11

atheist, if you cannot answer the question about what goods or services Harold Camping offered to people who have sent him donations, you cannot say he should be sued.

As I said earlier, there is no law to reimburse adults for their own stupidity and gullibility.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/24/11


Of course I cannot. But where is the line drawn. At my imaginary soothsayer? Does Camping get protection because he speaks as a Christian? Is he a real Christian as many here would ask? If this were a stocks and bonds scheme, would there be any hesitation?

People were hurt---is this any different than getting people to drink the cool-aid?
---atheist on 6/23/11

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He gave them lies in return for higher balances in their credit cards that they will now have to pay after all.

Or if he were honest he could just reverse the donations that he took in that last thirty or so days before the not end of the world.
---atheist on 6/23/11

strongaxe-- Again, nobody was "forced" to believe him. And they didn't accept any "service" from him. I don't approve of him. But no court case against him could stand.
---Donna66 on 6/23/11

atheist, I'm not defending Harold Camping. I never believed him, nor have I ever paid him any attention.

However, can you prove how much money he personally (as opposed to donationis for running his radio stations) he is getting from his faithful?

What goods or services has he actually offered and accepted money for?

Can you tell us?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/23/11


Camping offered an escape from the coming apocalypse that was going to destroy everyone else. All you had to do was to accept Christ and get saved (preferably via Family Radio, since apparently all the other Christians in the world had gotten it wrong).
---StrongAxe on 6/23/11

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atheist-- The soothsayer offered a service and his client accepted the offer. What "service" did Camping offer?
---Donna66 on 6/23/11


there is some similarity. But politicians are elected with the understanding that they are to vote in the best interests of the voters they represent and compromise will always succeed the hyperbole of vote getting. But yes, they do lie.
---atheist on 6/23/11

Atheist-- Another thought--by your definition, politicians running for office could all be prosecuted for "fraud"!
---Donna66 on 6/22/11


After a bad dream you go to a soothsayer and he says, "I see a demon in you. That demon will drive you mad within six months.

I can drive out that demon before you notice anything more. I can perform the first exorcism today with a follow up in six months.

Would you like me to drive out that demon? Yes! Good!"

After twenty minutes of smoke and mirrors he declares you "cleared and clean". He says,"The potions I use for the smoke were very expensive, so I will need a donation. Will that be alright with you? Good." As you leave you hear "NEXT!"

If you cannot prove that the soothsayer does not believe what he says, it's legal. If you can then it's fraud?
---atheist on 6/22/11

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atheist-- It is not fraud by legal definition.
It's not "illegal" to lie. (And maybe he actually believed what he said.!)
And it is not "illegal" to ask for donations.
---Donna66 on 6/22/11

Lying to the public, when the result is financial gain for the one telling the lie is fraud. Why shouldn't the liar be held legally accountable in "this" world? Why wait for an imaginary punishment from an imaginary punisher?

Unless Harold is so poor that he cannot reach out and dupe others into believing the nonsense of yet another rapture date, shouldn't the rest of his "end times" be consumed with a class action suit that attempts to return something to those that he injured, and stops additional wealth from accruing to his family?

He is still accepting "donations" today..
---atheist on 6/22/11

Yes. Unless they can prove that they have a connection to God and are properly transmitting His wishes, they should be held financially accountable for the consequences of any actions taken by anyone who acts on a pastor's advice. Also, the pastor's church should not be entitled to tax immunity unless the same test is passed.
---atheist on 6/20/11

Scott--- I wasn't thinking about other places in the world.
In many countries, I've noticed, people are hungry for the gospel, but unfortunately, they also tend to believe whatever the evangelists say. Very sad.

I hope people there did not sell everything or make other foolish choices because of it.
And hopefully, they will learn not to believe everything they hear...yet hold on to their faith in CHRIST.
---Donna66 on 6/20/11

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If every person that lied to the public was sued, then the courts would be overburdened with lawsuits.
---Eloy on 6/20/11

I don't think too many people were really worried about Campings prophesy. Donna

I wish this was true but in Africa (I was there on May 21) and other places where the knowledge base at how to look for and spot false prophets is very weak many people were very worried and confused about it.
---Scott on 6/20/11

Sag---You mean "above the law" as in,... "better than what's required" (not without accountability to the law). I agree, Christians should make an effort to be "above" the law at all times.

Laws get more complicated all the time. Citizens get more litigious and understandably skeptical about churches.
Church leaders should make a point of knowing what laws are applicable to them and their church and how the laws apply (remembering that, in court, ignorance of the law is no excuse)

Humility and strict honesty are especially important for the Christian these days.
---Donna66 on 6/20/11

It is not illegal in any secular court to misrepresent God.
---Donna66 on 6/19/11

So... SAD, but TRUE.

I believe that Christians, and especially the Leaders -- like Pastors -- should be ABOVE the law. None of us are 100% perfect, but things like the fraud that you mentioned are avoidable. If the person doing the crime would only commit themselves to doing NOTHING illegal or questionable.

I think that the 1980's problems with Jim & Tammy Bakker, and Jimmy Swaggart, set a terrible example for others. Now, many people are USING GOD, and the Bible, to Rob/Swindle people.

I Pray, and Hope, that Believers would choose to live ABOVE the law. That we would be honest, trustworthy, etc. witnesses for GOD.
---Sag on 6/19/11

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Strongaxe--I don't think too many people were really worried about Campings prophesy. The unsaved probably wouldn't believe him, and Christians with faith wouldn't be afraid. I didn't believe Camping....but a little bit of me wished he was RIGHT.
---donna66 on 6/19/11

Sag,-- Of course churches should be sued...IF they break the law or allow felonious behavior (as the RCC did). I attended a church once, whose pastor was convicted of fraud. He misrepresented to senior citizens, apartments that were built and sold by the church. The court ordered him, personally, (not the church, which knew nothing of the illegal actions) to pay restitution to every buyer (but I doubt he was ever able to).

Harold Camping did not "contract" (no legal papers were signed) with followers. They were asked to donate, which is voluntary. AND it is not illegal in any secular court to misrepresent God.
---Donna66 on 6/19/11


I like that one. Very funny.
---James_L on 6/19/11


The Catholic church has been sued several times. Not far from where I live, an Assemblies of God church, and a Lutheran church too, are being sued.

You can see that churches from many denominations are being sued. We're all human beings who are prone to getting ourselves into some legal No-No stuff. Even Pastors.

On the other side of the coin, I would encourage everyone to observe what went WRONG, and learn WHAT they can do to avoid similar problems in their own lives.

My advice mirrors that in the Bible. GOD has a lot of EXAMPLES throughout HIS word. About both the GOOD and the BAD. Read it. Learn from it.
---Sag on 6/19/11

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James L:

There is an old joke about a man who goes to a fortune teller to have his fortune read. She tells him "Oh dear! You will soon be swindled out of ten dollars!". The man says "Thank you for warning me!". The fortune teller says "That will be ten dollars".
---StrongAxe on 6/19/11

Cluny---Guess you hit a nerve with the seminar leader!
I was never fooled by the "No Money Down and Nothing a Month" pitch. But I did somehow think that some of these folks knew a lot of stuff I didn't! I did get a very few bits of information....very expensive bits they were!
(and not very useful).

Then I had a moment of clarity and realized that if THEY were making MILLIONS, why would they want to sell their "secrets" to me.?
---Donna66 on 6/18/11


If a Christian is secure in his salvation, he doesn't need to worry whether he knows when Jesus will return or not - in the same way that an employee who is doing his job doesn't need to constantly fret about surprise inspections.
---StrongAxe on 6/19/11

very true

I once saw a "Ziggy" cartoon in the newspaper. Ziggy is at a bookstore and sees a book titled "How To Make A Million Dollars"

He buys the book, takes it home and opens it to find one page which reads:

"Write a book about how to make a million dollars"
---James_L on 6/19/11

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\\For me, it's been mostly in the secular realm. I think I have FINALLY learned that no expensive course of study (esp. one I can't afford) is going to get me started in a business of my own. In the past, \\

During the '80's someone dragged me to one of those free opening seminars on How To Make Millions in Real Estate by Paying No Money Down and Nothing a Month. (Remember them? They all eventually crashed and burned by the end of the '90's.)

Anyway, I told the leader that the REAL money was obviously in selling books, tapes, and seminars, because that was what he was actually doing.

He resented it.

Glory to Jesus Christ.
---Cluny on 6/18/11

Sag -- Thanks for sharing that (glad you kept running!)

I think most everybody, if they live long enough, and are honest enough to admit it, gets taken in by somebody!
As a new Christian, my budding faith was so overwhelming and exciting that, for a while, I was willing to check my brains at the door. Thankfully, I didn't lose much (money that is).

For me, it's been mostly in the secular realm. I think I have FINALLY learned that no expensive course of study (esp. one I can't afford) is going to get me started in a business of my own. In the past, I've even convinced myself that this "opportunity" could be an answer to prayer! I now know that I have to do a lot more research both factually and spiritually.
---Donna66 on 6/18/11

StrongAxe-- I think you are leaving out two categories of Christians 1)Those who know that the Bible says "no man knoweth the hour..." and
2) Those who have enough common sense NOT to believe one lone prophet who wants you to go that far out on a limb.
---Donna66 on 6/18/11


Saying "If you don't believe as I do, then on (a very specific date that is coming up very soon) you are going to be forever lost and go to hell" *IS* pretty much tantamount to putting a gun to someone's head, if that person believes even slightly. The only people who are immune are at both ends of the spectrum - died-in-the-wool Christians to whom the warning does not apply, and died-in-the-wool atheists who don't take the warning seriously. Anyone inbetween will feel threatened by such a message.
---StrongAxe on 6/18/11

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It really IS sad...but they didn't HAVE to do these things.
---Donna66 on 6/17/11

I hate to admit that I was once "On The Road" to being one of those people.

Deceived into "Sacrificing In Order To Receive The Blessings Of GOD Tonight" OR "Pay The Price Of Unbelief. Curses Tomorrow". Which will it be?

Popular preachers. From the USA and Foreign Countries.

After several discouraging experiences, I RAN. I didn't care that those creeps kept throwing CURSES at me. I kept on RUNNING!
---Sag on 6/18/11

Harold Camping had a stroke last week.
---KarenD on 6/18/11

mike, what people do you know that committed suicide? Is there information on that? I never heard of that. I think all people are responsible. Those who spoke a lie, those who believed in the lie. Each is judge by their actions.
---Daniel on 6/18/11

Mike-- It really IS sad...but they didn't HAVE to do these things. Everything you mentioned was a result of THEIR own decisions.
NOBODY HAD to give away all their savings. NOBODY HAD to commit suicide. NOBODY HAD to lose their homes or put their pets to sleep.
There were OTHER ALTERNATIVES for every one of them. THEY chose what to do.

These people had the responsibility to judge what they heard. We all sometimes believe the wrong people and make the wrong decisions. For these people their mistakes were especially tragic.
---Donna66 on 6/17/11

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Camping did not hold a gun to these people's heads to make them send him their money. If those people had studied the Word, they would have been able to determine that Camping was full of baloney.
---Trish on 6/17/11


there were people who lost their savings retirement
there were people who committed suicide
there were people who lost their homes
there were people put their pets to sleep
---mike on 6/17/11

To whom did he cause damage?

Harold Camping is NOT a pastor, nor has he ever been ordained by any bishop, congregation, ministerium, presbytery, synod, clericus, or other other Christian body.

He is merely a man who has control of a bunch of radio stations and attracted a gaggle of not-very-discerning listeners who simply wanted their ears tickled.

There are no laws that protect people from their own gullibility or afford them redress for being foolish.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/17/11

No. Don't sue! The bible speaks of false prophet throughout. This is why christians need to be read up and prayed up then, and only then, will we be able to resist devils like Harold Camping. The flip side: God deals with people like Harold Camping. All christians have to do again, is be obedient to the Lord. He will fight our battles for us. Therefore eliminating suing and other tactics to get back at others.
When we desire to be leaders ,teachers,bishops and so forth. We need to be aware that God will deal with these leaders very harshly,if they lead His people down the wrong path. This is why the RCC receive so many harsh criticisms along with other cultic religions.
---Robyn on 6/17/11

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No because the word says, "Judgement begins in the house of God." Let God deal with him.

Also, I've seen God close down 2 churches because the Pastors were operating in rebellion. To sue someone, that would mean you'd have to prove damages or crime. Let God deal with them and His ways are higher than our ways, his thought are higher than our thoughts.
---Donna5535 on 6/17/11

On what grounds could he be sued? Could you prove his intention was to cause pain? If there is such a thing as "reckless preaching", he might be guilty.
The litigants would have to show that they were "forced", somehow, to incur debt, sell their homes and worldly goods, give their savings to Camping's ministry.

Camping didn't cause damage or inflict pain. It was those who were foolish enough to BELIEVE him, that caused their own misery. Blaming Camping is like a husband claiming "my wife's coldness made made me visit prostitutes" .. Or the wife who says "I had to shoplift. My husband doesn't give me enough money". Camping's followers are to be pitied. Hope it's a lesson learned.
---Donna66 on 6/17/11

"Forgive and you will be forgiven." (in Luke 6:37) I am liable to God, to trust only whoever He leads me to trust, so if I fool myself into trusting the wrong person, this is not Satan's fault that I did not make sure with God. So, if I want to be forgiven for acting without God, then I'd say forgive whoever cheated me after I helped to tempt him or her by trusting someone not fit to be trusted.

Also, Paul says, "Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unrighteous, and not before the saints?" (1 Corinthians 6:1) So, I'd say God expects us to forgive and not take our marriages, also, to secular courts.
---Bill_willa6989 on 6/17/11

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