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Saved Before Judgement Day

Can we be saved before the judgement day (John 12:48)?

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 ---jerry6593 on 6/20/11
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Sh b tet- Judgement
[sh]-shin pictorgraph is Two Teeth and defined as: sharp,press, eat ,two[bread of life-]
[Bet]- House,:In-[Son]
[tet]-clay basket:surround,contain,clay
Deut 4:24
For the LORD thy God is a [consuming fire], even a jealous God.
Prov 30:5
Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
Mat 12:36
But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
His Word Within Us-Stands. Ysha within-mediator.
Lk24:47
that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
In-Christ is righteousness
1Jn2:1

repentance unto remission
---char on 7/9/11


Why God is judge.
Is 26:4 Trust ye in YHWH for ever: for in YAH YHWH is everlasting strength:
Eternal/everlasting--Hebraic idom "beyond the Horizon" for "not seeing" "way beyond" [adm-mankind] understanding.
YHWH upon [His choosing] manifest to the creation. [All souls are His]. Ez 18:4
The name YHWH is built upon the name YH .
YHWH-His [own-timeless existence] AND [all existence]-eternal witness-[WH]

Cycle [begninnig to end] to the next-[Beginning to eternity].
Only His Word-followed---rescues from this [one] unto the eternal.[His Word-in flesh is the Bread of Life to Eternal]-

Defined by each letter to His Word.
Is 46:10,Rev 1:8-11,21:6,22:13

Aleph to Tav.
---char on 7/3/11


God will deliver-because God is the deliverer.
Following His Word-no other.

Told-beforehand [through the mouth] of the [prophets]-and confirmed -by His [Word in Flesh]-
Jesus Christ.
God is Spirit-
Gave His Word [down to each letter] for [adam-mankind]-
To follow out of deception from any other---word.


His Name is One.
One Lord
One Master
One path
One deliverer
One Savior
One God.
---char on 7/3/11


Immanuel- in Isaiah it is used three times: 7:14, 8:8, 8:10. It refers to God being with them in the sense that God will deliver them.

7:16-For before the boy knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land whose two kings you dread will be deserted"
This boy YHWH said to Ahaz, would be a sign that the two kings who desired to conquer Judah would be destroyed/forsaken/desolate. Saying Jesus is God from this would also mean this child is God as well. God would deliver Israel from their sin through Jesus(YHWH saves) the lamb of God showing that God was with Israel by keeping His promise of salvation.
---willa5568 on 7/3/11


Who is like God?
No one.
There is only One-God.
Deuteronomy 33:26
There is none like unto the God of Jeshurun, who rideth upon the heaven in thy help, and in his excellency on the sky.
Micah (Micaiah)-Who is like Yehovah?
A question-not-a statement.Micah1:1The word of the Lord [that came to Micah]

Who is Immanuel?-God with us.
Micah 1:3
For, behold, the LORD cometh forth out of his place, and [will come down, and tread upon the high places of the earth].

As to the question...
Can we be saved before the judgment day--
That is the reason God instructed His path back to Him-

One God-different dimension.
Yehovah's Word In flesh--Y'shua Jn1:1-15
---char on 7/2/11




aka: Once again:

Are you contending that an ordinary, created angel has the power to resurrect all of righteous humanity? My Bible tells me that only Jesus has that power!
---jerry6593 on 7/2/11


Ruben God blessed you!

But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Joh 14:14
God peace!
---TheSeg on 6/30/11


As long as a person has breath, there is a chnace that they will receive Christ and be saved.
---Eloy on 6/30/11


Ruben, I'm surprise you would argue your point by giving that passage which suggest that all man will be saved. You are a Catholic and they don't believe in Universal salvation. If you do, then you are against the RCC and their teachings.
---Mark_V. on 6/30/11

Mark,
Never said all man will be save, but that Jesus desires that all men to 'be saved'
---Ruben on 6/30/11


TheSeg* Ruben, I have no dispute with what is written in the bible.
My dispute is with the understanding of the bible.

Where is it written I have called all?
You will find the words, I came to save the world or the sinners of the world.

What does world mean to you?
---Ruben on 6/30/11




"Can we be saved before the judgement day" "
"[As a] worker together with Him [I] plead with you not to receive the grace of God in vain. For He says: "In an acceptable time I have heard you, And in the day of salvation I have helped you. Behold, now is the accepted time, behold, now is the day of salvation." 2 Cor. 6:1,2
"Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says: Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, In the day of trial in the wilderness, [Father] was angry with that generation, And said, 'They always go astray in their heart, And they have not known My ways, So I swore in My wrath, they shall not enter My rest Because of their unbelief" Heb.3:6-19
---josef on 6/30/11


Ruben, I'm surprise you would argue your point by giving that passage which suggest that all man will be saved. You are a Catholic and they don't believe in Universal salvation. If you do, then you are against the RCC and their teachings.
---Mark_V. on 6/30/11


Ruben, I have no dispute with what is written in the bible.
My dispute is with the understanding of the bible.

Where is it written I have called all?
You will find the words, I came to save the world or the sinners of the world.

Now you can ask everyone!
Are all the sinners of the world saved?
99.999% will say no, why?
They dont believe in the Christ of God.
Isnt this right?

If youre saying they will be called.
I have no problem with that.
For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

As of right now, no not all are called, and even fewer chosen.
Peace
---TheSeg on 6/29/11


Do you agree that " THE ANGEL OF GOD / ANGEL OF THE LORD" As written in SOME scriptures Is actually Jesus?
---francis on 6/29/11


John 3:16, "...has everlasting life..." present tense. Salvation from the penality of sin is given at the moment of believe. The judgment day for the saved is a time of rewards for the works done following salvation. Only the lost face the Great White Throne judgment.
---Harold on 6/29/11

But yet scripture gives past,present, and future:

Rom. 8:24 - for in this hope we were saved(Past)

2 Cor. 2:15 - for we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved(present)

Rom. 13:11 - salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed.(Future)

But so many want to believe it is a one time deal, go figure!
---Ruben on 6/29/11


Harold, thank you very much for the post you gave, it speaks volumn's on the present tense of salvation. The Resurrection will be the consumation of our redemption for we will receive the new bodies prepared for eternity. For believers do not face judgment at the Great White Throne since they have been redeemed already, but will be there with the Lord when the sentence is given.
---Mark_V. on 6/29/11


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In Mat_22:14 he says few are chosen, of the many called!
Maybe a good question is, why is he not calling all?

--TheSeg on 6/28/11

He is calling all:

""For God so loved the world as to give his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, may not perish, but may have life everlasting.(JHN 3:16)

"Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth."( 1 Tim 2:4)
---Ruben on 6/29/11


francis your post 6/29/11
Michael = who is like God
Arch = chief
one_ "first"
Angel = messenger from God.
Michael the Archangel is a messenger of God who is like unto God Himself. And he is the cheif or first ( premier / supreme) Of all the messengers of God. He is that great prince.

Heb_2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour, that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Jud_1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation,
but said, The Lord rebuke thee!

Peace
---TheSeg on 6/29/11


John 3:16, "...has everlasting life..." present tense. Salvation from the penality of sin is given at the moment of believe. The judgment day for the saved is a time of rewards for the works done following salvation. Only the lost face the Great White Throne judgment.
---Harold on 6/29/11


Heb 1:2,4-8a Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds...Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of...
---micha9344 on 6/29/11


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//Strong's Hebrew Definition for # 04317//

From H4310 and H3588 and H410, who (is) like God?

you want to keep adding here and omitting there. the question mark is part of the meaning. Michael is a given name that comes from the Hebrew question meaning "Who is like God?"

//Michael the Archangel is a messenger of God, who is like unto God? Himself.//

Doesn't make sense unless you take out of context. Micheal, the person who is like God, is different than Micheal, who is the person like God?

i am not most christians. 'many' will be sent away who do miraculous deeds in Jesus' name. where it says angel, to me, it means angel. where it says the Lord, it means the Lord.
---aka on 6/29/11


I will answer this question with a question, of someone used as an example by the New Testament teachers, of one who was saved by Faith.
Was Noah saved when he got on the Ark, or was Noah saved when he got off of the Ark?

Notice in the story of Noah, that God set Noah adrift for many more days than was needed to drown all mankind.
Have you ever wondered why?
Was this time akin to a time of testing, as some of us may face during the Great Tribulation period?

Read the story of Noah, it's really a fascinating story that holds many answers to todays questions.
---David on 6/29/11


aka: Once again:

Are you contending that an ordinary, created angel has the power to resurrect all of righteous humanity? My Bible tells me that only Jesus has that power!
---jerry6593 on 6/29/11


Francis, Jesus does not play the part of Michael, He plays the part of no known angel. In the Old Testament theophanies coming from the Greek words for God (theos) and "to appear" (phaino), means the appearance of Christ in the Old Testament. In the Bible, theophanies have reference specifically to Christ. He is discribe as the "Angel of Jehovah" and as the "Angel of the Lord" References to the Angel of Jehovah or the Angel of the presenceis found throughout the entire Old Testament (Gen. 16:7-13, 21:17, 22:11-18, 24:7, 40: Hosea 12:4, Gen 48:15,16, Acts 7:30,35, Exodus 13:21, 14:19, 23:20,23, Numbers, Judges, 2 Samuel, 1 kings, 2 kings, Eccles, Isa. 1 Chron. etc, but never as Gabriel or Michael.
---Mark_V. on 6/29/11


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Mark_V. on 6/28/11

Help yourself a little bit, look up "Michael, one of the chief princes : In other sources see what it means

Gaurantees to be Jesus
Strong's Hebrew Definition for # 04317

Michael = who is like God
Arch = chief
one_ "first"
Angel = messenger from God.
Michael the Archangel is a messenger of God who is like unto God Himself. ANd he is the cheif or first ( premier / supreme) Of all the messengers of God. He is that great prince

Mostchristians accept the fact the "The angel of God/ the Lord" is Jesus. BUt give that angel of God a name whoch mean WHO IS LIKE GOD and the reject it
---francis on 6/29/11


//1 Thessalonians 4:16 says that the shout of Jesus, voice of the archangel will raise the dead//

misquote. already been there. with means accompaniment.

2Th 1:7 and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels

it does not say with the other mighty angels. it says with his mighty angels and they do fill specific billets under the command of Jesus.
---aka on 6/28/11


Joh_6:36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
And you know these were called!

Joh_6:45 -and hath learned of the Father
You think this mean about him, and not actually from him!

Because no one really believes God can speak.
Like if I said, I got this from God. OK, stop laughing!
So men, tend to turn to men.

In Mat_22:14 he says few are chosen, of the many called!
Maybe a good question is, why is he not calling all?

Look at the so-call-lost all say there is no God or dont believe.
Mat_18:8 and rightly so!

But now I say listen!
1Co_12:15!

Again not all but arent most of the believing, saying Psa_3:2?
God peace Ruben
---TheSeg on 6/28/11


Daniel 12:1 Speaks about Michael the great prince standing up for those whose names are in the book of life in that time of trouble
Verse 2 talks about those who are then resurrected after that time of trouble

Revelation 19:11 to the end talk about Jesus standing up for his people in the last day and going to war and slaying many, revelation 20 is the resurrection

John 5:28 tells us that the voice of Jesus will raise the dead
1 Thessalonians 4:16 says that the shout of Jesus, voice of the archangel will raise the dead

All prophecuies concerning Michael are fullfilled by Jesus and vice versa

That is why they are one and they same
---francis on 6/28/11


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Francis, Jesus playing the part of Michael? Just nonesense. Why would Jesus play the part of Michael. Why not play His own part? You guys are just too much.
Michael the prince is the Archangel, spoken of in Dan. 10:13, 21. If you had read Scripture you would not compare Michael with Jesus.
"But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days, and behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me" The same is said in (v.21) "But I will tell you what is noted in the Scripture of Truth, No one upholds me against these, except Michael the prince"
---Mark_V. on 6/28/11


Ruben, you are correct. Those who have faith to believe will be saved. No question about that. The only thing you have to consider is that the lost have no faith or love for Christ. They need to get it from God's Word by hearing. And many hear it but don't get it. They are the one's who choose not to believe. Those that are drawn to God get it. If not drawn, they stay separated from God.
This is the main point no one wants to believe. That it takes for God to give that faith and that love for Christ. They want it to come from themselves. From their own works. It's impossible since the lost cannot produce saving faith or a love for Christ. They are children of wrath.
---Mark_V. on 6/28/11


seg* But Ruben, for me to believe they pick it.
When Christ clearly said:
Joh_6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Leads me to understand, this is not by choice!

It is by choice:

JHN 6:35 ": he that cometh to me : and he that believeth in me "

Jhn 6:40 ": that every one who seeth the Son, and believeth in him:

Jhn 6:45 " Every one that hath heard of the Father, and hath learned , cometh to me ."

End results: God draws, men respond by believing or not!
---Ruben on 6/28/11


Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince... every one that shall be found written in the book. many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake..,

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse, and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
...and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

So here you see the fulfilment of daniel 12 1-2 and behold it is JESUS playing the part of Michael the great prince, standing up for the people whose names are in the book
NEXT CHAPTER the resurrection same as daniel 12
---Francis on 6/28/11


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Aka, very good points. Jerry is introducing new revelation. What he said is just not true at all,
"Apparently, Jesus has the Archangel's voice, and can raise the righteous dead from all the earth. It would seem logical that Jesus is the commander, chief, head, etc of the angels - the Archangel Himself"
I believe he did not read ( Dan. 12:1,2 ) concerning prophecy of the end times.
"At that time Michael shall stand up, the great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people, and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation, even to that time, and at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone who is found written in the book"
---Mark_V. on 6/28/11


aka: Are you contending that an ordinary, created angel has the power to resurrect all of righteous humanity? My Bible tells me that only Jesus has that power!
---jerry6593 on 6/28/11


The Seg, thank you for reminding me about those who are descendants of Adam, very good passages to the subject of judging or condemning. The lost are already condemned, they await the sentence. The very reason Jesus said He did not come to condemn or judge the world but to save. Very good point brother.

Ruben, they are "Chosen by God" but they are born just like John 3:18 explains, everyone else condemned by the curse put on Adam. They are condemned already and so they need Christ. Otherwise they continue their path.
---Mark_V. on 6/28/11


Joh_12:47 he judge not, because of Joh_3:18
You are condemned already!
And you know this is so!

So you dont need a judge, you need a lawyer!
And what does a good lawyer always say? Keep quiet!
Why?
Mat_12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

But Ruben, for me to believe they pick it.
When Christ clearly said:
Joh_6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Leads me to understand, this is not by choice!
These things are by the will of God!
Why!
What better way to judge you, than your own mouth?
Jas_3:1-9

God Bless

---TheSeg on 6/27/11


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---aka on 6/27/11
What you are talking about is as if God has an angel in charge of worship and that angel is an arch angel of worship, or one in charge of going back and forth to the earth and he is arch angel in charge of travels. This is not what cheif means here.

If you look at the roles of the Archangel and Jesus: they
both tell prophecy Daniel and matthew, Their voice raises the dead, they are both commanders of the armies of God ( BOTH HUMAN AND ANGELIC HOST)

Well let me ask you this:
Do you agree that the name " Angel of God/ the lord' in SOME scriptures actually refer to Jesus the Christ, and that does not mean that Jesus the Christ is a created being?
---francis on 6/27/11


//About the title Archangel:...you cannot have two chiefs.//

Have you ever served in the military, francis? there is the commander-in-chief, the head chiefs of staff, chief admirals, the chief of the General staff, the chief sergeant of the Army, chief petty officers, and so on...there are all kind of chiefs. paul likens our fight with the enemy as soldiering...

//1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the ARCHANGEL, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: //

jerry "with" here shows accompaniment. otherwise, Jesus would be 'a shout' and 'the trump of God' too. is that what you are saying??
---aka on 6/27/11


Mark_V.* Jesus Christ came into the earth not to condemn or judge anyone, but to save those whom God has chosen.

If they already chosen, why do they need to be save? Or from whom?

Mark_V.* But He has been given the right to Judge those who reject Him at the Day of Judgment. For He says
"He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him-the word that I have spoken will judge him "

So they(chosen) have free will to accept him or reject him, correct?

Mark_V.* While on earth He didn't come to Judge, but His words will condemn those who heard and did not keep His Word at Judgment Day.

Who are those he will condemn?- Chosen why?, unbelivers-Why?
---Ruben on 6/27/11


When I look at these text conserning the TIME of salvation:
Romans 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now [it is] high time to awake out of sleep: for now [is] our salvation nearer than when we believed.
1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ
Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many, and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
1 Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

I can accept it today BY FAITH, knowing that it will happen in the last day/time. Time of Judgment
---francis on 6/27/11


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The Seg, after reading your passages I find no contradiction in them. Jesus Christ came into the earth not to condemn or judge anyone, but to save those whom God has chosen. But He has been given the right to Judge those who reject Him at the Day of Judgment. For He says
"He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him-the word that I have spoken will judge him (,"at Day of Judgment") in the last day."
While on earth He didn't come to Judge, but His words will condemn those who heard and did not keep His Word at Judgment Day. Jesus Christ our Lord will do the judging at "the Great White Throne of Judgment."
---Mark_V. on 6/27/11


To say we get the Full Holy Spirit at the consumation of our redemption is quite odd... believe this.

But WE the Church are receiving GLORIFIED bodies just as Jesus has, as John said, we don't know what we wll be like but we know we will be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. Glorified bodies that we can reside in Heaven.
---kathr4453 on 6/27/11

I am not sure what you are trying to say in the first part.
The second part is written in future language, indicating that the glorioues bodies and all that is in the future, which ofcourse we get when christ returns: At the time of our literal ( rather than by faith) salvation
---francis on 6/27/11


With every day that goes by, I am more convinces!
God will forgive everyone, impossible right!

Every ones talking about the, Day of Judgment.
And that day is coming.

The lord said:
Joh_5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
So the son will judge you!

Now look at the line John 12:47
And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not!
For I came not to judge the world, but to save the world!

Clearly its not Christ judging you. He is saving you!
So if its not God the Father (Joh_5:22) or Christ (John 12:47) or the Spirit.
Who left Satan? No! (Mat_28:18)

Whos left?
Judge not and be not judge!
---TheSeg on 6/27/11


To say we get the Full Holy Spirit at the consumation of our redemption is quite odd. EXCEPT if you believe you are and will always be flesh and you are going back to the state of being Adam /Eve were before the fall. Many unfortunately believe this.

But WE the Church are receiving GLORIFIED bodies just as Jesus has, as John said, we don't know what we wll be like but we know we will be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. Glorified bodies that we can reside in Heaven.
And francis, Colossians 2-3 state we are dead and Hidden with God in Christ RIGHT NOW! and strangers in this world. Our history in Adam 1 in and to this world ENDED at Calvary.
---kathr4453 on 6/27/11


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aka: "the bible only uses "archangel" once. so, Michael was only deployed once in Jude?"

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the ARCHANGEL, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Apparently, Jesus has the Archangel's voice, and can raise the righteous dead from all the earth. It would seem logical that Jesus is the commander, chief, head, etc of the angels - the Archangel Himself!
---jerry6593 on 6/27/11


Absolutely! The Holy Spirit is a seal,our guarantee. Eph 1:13. Eph 4:30. God is faithful. He who began a good work in me, WILL bring it to completion, as He works in me to will AND to do according to His good purpose.
---christina on 6/27/11


francis, you said,
"If we are given the down payment of the holy ghost until the redeeption, clearly it means that the redeeption has not yet happened."
The passage says,
"Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee"
Spiritually we have been redeemed already. We are one with Christ when we exercise faith in His works. The body has not been redeemed while we are alive. But will be glorified later. But we are justified already.
---Mark_V. on 6/27/11


If you did not say that, then I was wrong. And I apologize.
---Mark_V. on 6/26/11
You are wrong.

I asked her / his opinion on the downpayment verses the full payment.

Then based on the way he/ phrased the statement ending with " until the redeemption purchase possition.."

If we are given the down payment of the holy ghost until the redeeption, clearly it means that the redeeption has not yet happened.
---francis on 6/27/11


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francis, you said,

"We are given the earnest of the Holy Spirit, down payment until the redeemption. And we get the full Holy Spirit at the redeemption?" does that not have a question mark?
Then you concluded with,
So obviously the redeemption has not yet occured."
Suggesting she had said we did not get the Spirit fully and at redeemption we do. If you did not say that, then I was wrong. And I apologize.
---Mark_V. on 6/26/11


I know you put a question mark, but you suggested that is the reason we are not redeemed already.
---Mark_V. on 6/26/11
I suggested that or did you rad that into it?
---francis on 6/26/11


---aka on 6/26/11
Who is like God? or Who is like God. OK.
Have you noticed that in the Bible especially the NT God is used mainly to refer to the Father? Ephesians 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father..
1 Corinthians 11:3 the head of Christ is God.

Well Jesus is LIKE the Father
John 14:9 he that hath seen me hath seen the Father,

About the title Archangel:
You never see for example Gabriel the arch angel
which would mean Gabriel the chief of angels, you cannot have two chiefs.

And ofcourse who else would raise the dead (MOSES) but Jesus referering to Jude.

What are you comments on my other posts, about raising the dead and captian of God's army
---FRANCIS on 6/26/11


francis, Kathr did not say that we get the full Holy Spirit at redeemtion as you suggest,

Good post I like them.
We are given the earnest of the Holy Spirit, down payment until the redeemption. And we get the full Holy Spirit at the redeemption? So obviously the redeemption has not yet occured."

The consumation of our redeemption has not occured since we still have the sin nature which needs to be glorified. But we have the fullness of the Holy Spirit, not a part are a percentage. I know you put a question mark, but you suggested that is the reason we are not redeemed already.
2 Cor.5:5
"Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee"
---Mark_V. on 6/26/11


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francis, other blog closed. the bible only uses "archangel" once. so, Michael was only deployed once in Jude? the passage regarding joseph says angel of God (who obviously had a message). you said that jesus was a messenger of God. is he not then just an angel and not 'arch'?

the meaning of michael presented by you was without like (now without question mark). in genesis, the serpent implied said to Eve,"you will be LIKE God," God had cherubim take guard. so, the question the becomes to enter, "who is like God?"

if you search, the name always says like and has a question mark. except on sites that promote part of the truth.
---aka on 6/26/11


kathr4453 on 6/26/11
Good post I like them.
We are given the earnest of the Holy Spirit, down payment until the redeemption. And we get the full Holy Spirit at the redeemption? So obviously the redeemption has not yet occured.

That we are already seated IN HEAVENLY PLACES in Christ Jesus, HHHMM actually I am sitting in my office right now. But much like yu, i accept the seat in heavenly places BY FAITH ( sunstance of things HOPED for, evidence of things NOT SEEN)
---francis on 6/26/11


francis, we are discussing on another blog the Blood of Jesus Christ.

1. The Church purchased with the Blood of Jesus Christ - Acts 20:28

2. WE the Church have been given the Holy Spirit as the EARNEST, until the REDEMPTION PURCHASED posession, unto the praise of His Glory.

3. That we are already seated IN HEAVENLY PLACES in Christ Jesus, and our blessings are SPIRITUAL blessings, not earthly ones given only to earthly israel if they obeyed teh law of Moses.

And by the way, all prosperity/and dominion theology gospels claim Israel's earthly blessings. WRONG!
---kathr4453 on 6/26/11


This is not difficult to grasp.

Salvation is given: Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen

But we speak of it as if it has already happened, we accept is by FAITH calling the things that we see not as if they were
---francis on 6/23/11


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I agreed with James L only on physical death by Adam and justification by Christ. Romans 5 Paul is speaking of the doctrine of Justification, nothing else.
But spiritual death also came with Adam. Spiritual death is separation from God. Those who are lost are spiritually dead, blind, deaf, and a heart dead to God. They need to be born of the Spirit. Jesus would not have made the comment that people needed to be born again of the Spirit if they were not dead spiritually. 1 Cor. 15:44,45 speaks of this condition. (v.46) tells us that the Spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the Spiritual.
Adam brought death of the flesh and separation from God (death of the spirit), the Second Man brings spiritual life to the lost.
---Mark_V. on 6/23/11


Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
Job 19:26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
---jerry6593 on 6/23/11


1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness, but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
2Co 2:15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
-francis, are you with them that perish or us which are saved(present tense)?
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved,)
Dead to sin? Alive to God? Saved? by faith? past tense?
2Tim 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Saved us? Called us? Before the world began? Past tense?
---micha9344 on 6/22/11


Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
-It doesn't look like future tense to me.
---micha9344 on 6/22/11

METHOD OF SALVATION: Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith,

TIME OF SALVATION: Romans 13:11 for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
Romans 5:9 Much more then, being NOW JUSTIFIED by his blood, we SHALL BE saved from wrath through him.

I am sure you will NOT get it
but others may

the METHOD OF SALVATION by by grace through faith, the TIME of salvation is when his wrath come, we will be saved from his wrath.
---francis on 6/22/11


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Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
-It doesn't look like future tense to me.
-It appears to be more of a present perfect tense grammatically.
---micha9344 on 6/22/11


Here is a wonderful statement."Those who have been crucified with Christ, have ended their history in Adam 1, and are not going to be judged, because SIN had already been judged and dealt with in our identification with Christ."
---kathr4453 on 6/21/11

I encourage you to reread it and let it sink in.
---mima on 6/22/11


James, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that. That's okay. Lots of disagreements around here! :-)
---John.usa on 6/22/11


Great answer James and Aka. Aka made it clear, not everyone here is a follower of Christ for not everyone believes by faith in the Works of Christ on the Cross and His resurrection. Many still believe they can be saved by their own works, not on Christ works. In fact many do not feel that Christ sacrifice is sufficient. That it needs the help of man.
---Mark_V. on 6/22/11


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john usa,

you're making the same mistake that many here make concerning Romans 5.

Most think the passage is speaking of spiritual death in Adam and spiritual life in Christ.

If that were true, you would be absolutely correct, because verse 18 is spoken in all inclusive language. in Adam all die, in Christ all will be made alive.

does that sound familiar? That's actually 1Corinthians 15:22, which is speaking of a PHYSICAL life.

If you read Romans 5 and 1Cor 15 together, it should be abundantly clear that both are speaking of physical death in Adam, and physical life in Christ for EVERYONE. Even Jesus said all men will be raised physically.

There is no guarantee of spiritual life for everyone
---James_L on 6/21/11


Romans 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now [it is] high time to awake out of sleep: for now [is] our salvation nearer than when we believed.

If salvation is NEARER, then it is NOT NOW. We just accept that we will be saved by faith
---francis on 6/22/11


aka, no, it doesn't.
---John.usa on 6/21/11


We are justified by His Blood, and SAVED by His Life.
It's His Life IN YOU that you are saved. So, those who are buried with Him unto death, and rised up together with Him are New Creatures. Nothing can separate us from teh Love of God which is IN CHRIST JESUS.
Those who have been crucified with Christ, have ended their history in Adam 1, and are not going to be judged, because SIN had already been judged and dealt with in our identification with Christ.
---kathr4453 on 6/21/11


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I believe this question has been answered several times. The Bible uses the term salvation not only in many senses, but in many tenses. The verb to save appears in virtualy every possible tense of the Greek language. There is a sense in which we were saved (from the foundation of the world) we were being saved (by the word of God through history) we are saved ( by being in a justified state) we will be save (by being sanctified or made holy) and we will be saved (experience the consumation of our redemption in heaven). The Bible speaks of salvation in terms of the past, present and future.
The ultimate salvation, is that we will be delivered from God's wrath, which will come on earth.
---Mark_V. on 6/21/11


Rom 5:9 ... great verse...it does all depend on him.

Rom 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
---aka on 6/20/11


//don't worry, your salvation is secure //

john.usa, doesn't that depend on the Christ in which you have faith?

Rom 5:21

not everyone here believes in Jesus Christ.
---aka on 6/20/11


If we answer the question " Saved from what?" then we will know the time of savation

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

The above text places Justification today, but salvation at a future date: at the time of wrath
---francis on 6/20/11


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Jerry, don't worry, your salvation is secure (Romans 5:18, 1.Timothy 4:10).
---John.usa on 6/20/11


Romans 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Romans 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, [then] do we with patience wait for [it].

We accept salvation now by Faith. In other words, we accept now by faith, that when the judgment of God comes we will be saved from the lake of fire. So with patience we wait for it.
---francis on 6/20/11


We can be saved or redeemed from sin any time we repent of our sins. Any wise person who repents and takes Christ as Savior and Lord will structure their New Life in Christ to line up with the Bible and Christs example of Holiness. He who endures to the end shall be saved Matthew 10:22 All men will hate you because of me but he who stands firm to the end will be saved(NIV).
---Darlene_1 on 6/20/11


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