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Son Of God Or Is He God

Is Jesus the Son of God or is He God? Some say He is God and others the Son of God, so which do you feel it is?

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 ---paul on 6/26/11
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Dear J-n

Knock, knock.

Jesus and Satan brothers? You are getting your 'warped people' mixed up. But hey, don't let a little thing like the facts stop you from your amusing little rants.

No big surprise that your comments on this and other topics never seem to include a single reference to God's word the bible. Hmmmmmmm.

(Insert sound of door-slamming here).
---scott on 6/28/11


Warwick, this is where trinitarian/Platonic indoctrination blinds you and others to the 'sacred mystery'. Who was it who would be made manifest to show 'godly devotion' or 'godliness' to God to the ultimate degree, thus providing a release from Adamic sin and death. That's the question being asked at 1 Tim.3:16. Such an ask would be 'great'.

Was God or man required to show 'godly devotion' or 'godliness'? Did God or man sin in Eden? Do you believe Adam was a man or a God/man?

For me the simple answer is Jesus, the 'last Adam', 'became flesh' in order to show complete 'godliness' to his Father. Adam was a man, so was Jesus- 1 Cor.15:45, Ro.5:19.

Christendoms Hellenic trinity dogma raises more questions than it can answer.
---David8318 on 6/28/11


"Know you all that Yhwh, he God, none else. And his name will be called Immanuel: for God with us. And His name will be called The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. And Jesus went to them, walking on the sea, and said, Take courage: I am, be not afraid. I am Light to the world. You all call me The LORD, indeed you all say well, for I am. I am from above, I am not of this world. For if you all believe not that I AM, you all will die in your sins. I am the Alpha and the Omega, Beginning and Ultimate, says the Lord, which from being, and which to being, and which coming, The Almighty." Dt.4:39+ I Kg.8:60+ Ps.100:3+ Is.45:5+ 7:14+ 8:10+ 9:6+ Mt.14:25,27+ Jn.9:5+ 13:13+ 8:23,24+ Rev.1:8.
---Eloy on 6/28/11


In scripture it says Jesus was a man, the Son of God, son of man(both Messianic titles), root of David, the prophet raised from Gods people who was to be like Moses, High priest in the order of Melchizedek, the offspring of the women. The trinity doctrine says he became a man though he was God. But scripture says the word became flesh, was manifested in the flesh,we are to confess Jesus came in the flesh. This in no way says God became a man but rather was clothed with flesh. Which would mean he denied his deity by saying he had a God.
---willa5568 on 6/28/11


Jesus is the Son of God and God, quite difficult for those rejecting trinity. so one first needs to believe trinity before they can accept Christ's sonship. this debate is as old as Christianity, and even older
---andy3996 on 6/28/11




Only YHWH is God Yashua is definitely subordinate to YHWH as well as the Holy Spirit. Christ and the Holy spirit are only second echelon deity. The Trinity is a two tear stratified heretical structure composed of three distinct separate entities with YHWH God the Father at the top and Christ and the Holy Spirit at the bottom.
---Blogger9211 on 6/28/11


"People interpret Scripture through culture, and denominational teaching." Warwick

Agreed. That is why you would say the following re Matt 3.

"Matthew 3:17 says the Father is well pleased with His one and only Son Jesus-fully God, and fully man." Warwick

Yes, the Father is pleased with His Son. But no scripture (certainly not Matt 3:17) says that Jesus is "fully God and fully man."

It is your trinitarian indoctrination that causes you to make such statements, adding to and twisting scripture to suit a theological argument that can't be supported with God's inspired word alone. It is (and will likely continue to be) an interesting, but theadbare, example of eisegesis.
---scott on 6/28/11


David, havn't I answered these questions before?

I am confused by your comments and questions regarding 1 Timothy 3:16. The verses before v.16 speak about God then say He appeared in the flesh... This is God appearing in flesh-Immanuel "God with us, just as we say. "

Where in this verse does He "show 'godly devotion' to Himself?"

"Why would God need to become flesh...?" To be made like his brothers in every way, to suffer temptation and resist, as Hebrews 17,18 says, to die,paying the price of our sin.

What a mystery that God became man and chose to die for we sinners! But if we say we will not accept this mystery because we cannot understand it we are getting above ourselves.
---Warwick on 6/28/11


Looks like an invasion of JWs!!!
Thank G-d there's no doors or they'll be banging away!
Soon we will hear how Jesus and Satan are brothers.

HMMMMMM???????

Now where did those 144,000 go????????

Why is anyone giving these warped people even a reply.

What a ignorant concept and it needs no further time wasted.
---John on 6/28/11


David, "Where was AlmightyGod before being 'raised up in glory?" Scripture illuminated by the Holy Spirit tells us- God is not a man, that He should lie (Numbers 23:19) but spirit unlimited by time or space. It is the God/Man Jesus who was limited in time and space (on earth, within the limitations of a body) who was lifted up in glory.

The Father calls only Jesus my Son. Jesus calls the Father my Father, and my God. See John 20:17 "..."I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God." Jesus does not say our Father and our God but separates it into His God and Father, and their God and Father.
---Warwick on 6/28/11




Paul, people interpret Scripture through culture, and denominational teaching. Those in cults follow what they are told. As regards the JW's, obedience is demanded or disfellowshiping follows.

Those who have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, having asked for it, are better equiped to understand His word by their reading of it, without denominational or cultic control.

Regarding your question I am saying God is one in three persons-God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 3:17 says the Father is well pleased with His one and only Son Jesus-fully God, and fully man.

---Warwick on 6/28/11


John 2:19,21


10:17,18 "... because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of myself(he chose to obey God, though he did not desire to go through it, he said not my will, but your will be done). I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father"

I have authority-- in the Greek can refer to ones power of choice. Considering the previous statement, I lay my life down of myself, this idea fits the context.

take it up-- is better translated receive, so it would read " I lay down my life so I may receive it again"

Scripture says abundantly God raised him.
---willa5568 on 6/27/11


The Father and the Son, the Shepherd and the Lamb, the Master and the Servant, the Creator and the created, are One: Almighty God put on flesh, in the body of the man Jesus Christ, in order to redeem mankind in the flesh.
---Eloy on 6/27/11


Warwick

Do you agree with this passage?

Eph 3:9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ,

Or are you saying that God the Father is also Jesus?

If they are one and the same then what does this imply?

Mt 3:17 And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

Paul
---paul on 6/27/11


John 2:19-21 - Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? But he spake of the temple of his body.
Who does this say would raise the temple/Jesus body?
---christina on 6/27/11


Ro 8:16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
17 and if children, then heirs--heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

How many more examples, do those of you who say God and Jesus are the same, do you need?

The Bible is full of them.

Paul
---paul on 6/27/11


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This arguement amounts to nothing more than Symantics.

Jesus is G-d.
---John on 6/27/11


Temper, temper Warwick.

It was you who cited the BAGD definition of 'arche', but failed to realize that they has updated it's meaning to "'first created' as linguistically probable." Whoopsey. Don't shoot the messenger, just do your own homework and you won't embarrass yourself (as often).

Remember when you inaccurately argued the meaning of the Hebrew word "Eth" for weeks and then a year later you said that you were just kidding?

BTW, I said I was not a Witness three years ago, said I was studying with Witnesses 2 years ago, and I was baptized as one of Jehovah's WItnesses last summer. Had I known you had such a personal interest in me I would have sent you an invitation.
---scott on 6/27/11


Colossians 1 " We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ..giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us..He (God the Father) has delivered us..and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption. He is the image(likeness, reminds me of Adam) of the invisible God, the firstborn(resurrection) of all creation..all things were created through him and for him... He is the beginning, the firstborn (resurrection) from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent(not preeminent until the resurrection,when he was given all power and authority)... through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven".



one verse doesn't make Jesus God
---willa5568 on 6/27/11


Leon

Your post was indeed a personal attack on my intellectual aptitude.
But it is ok for I realize what is behind it.
But again you have failed to articulate why you perceive my view as juvenile and Biblical inaccurate.
Thus implying you are the one who is without an answer.
Remember you must prove your point, insults are a cover up and to answer a question with a question implies you dont have answers but questions.
Please show why I am in error.
Paul
---paul on 6/27/11


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In the Word it says God cant be tempted but yet Jesus was. Therefore how can Jesus be God?

Jas 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God", for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.

Mt 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities, but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Paul
---paul on 6/27/11


Are these topics worth getting angry over? Is it okay to be discourteous while defending supposed Christian beliefs? Is the Christian who is unkind truly a Christian? Just asking... God bless.
---John.usa on 6/27/11


Warwick,
You thoroughly missed what I said about what the Holy Ghost reveals as opposed to looking up a word.
The words mean what he says by his Spirit.
When Jesus said destroy this temple those who knew Hebrew and Aramaic better than you thought he was talking about the literal temple.
He meant his body.
He reveals by the Spirit what he says a word means.
And there is a difference in the light of the first day and the lights of the 4th day.
Read it again.
But believe what you want.
I don't have any more time to waste on scholars.
I revealed through an abundance of scripture Jesus is the Son.
Not my fault the mods won't post them.
My conscience is clear.
Bye.
---Del on 6/27/11


Regarding the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End, see Revelation 1:8, 21:6, and 22:13 where 'beginning' is Gk. 'arche', as in the beginning of God's creation. These verses call both Jesus and God Almighty the Beginning and the End. Interestingly, and relevantly and not surprizingly 1:8 specifically says the Beginning and the End is God Almighty, and as we know He is eternal having no Beginning or End. Therefore "the Beginning and the End" has nothing to do with Jesus being created, nor His death and resurrection. But that He is Creator, not creature.

The Greek 'arche' is used in the same sense in Revelation 3:14 that Jesus is He who begins creation-see John 1:3, Colossians 1:16, and Hebrews 1:2.
---Warwick on 6/27/11


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Cluny, Jesus is referred to as 'the First and the Last' in terms of his death and resurrection as Rev.1:17,18 and 2:8 point out in that Jesus was 'the First' human to be resurrected to immortal spirit life (Colossians 1:18) and that he is 'the Last' to be so resurrected by God his Father personally.

For all others of humanity, Jesus himself is 'the resurrection and the life'- John 11:25.

So no, in answer to your question- Jesus is not the last one to be resurrected. But he is the last one to have been given a resurrection personally by his Father, Jehovah God (YHWH).
---David8318 on 6/27/11


Dell when God said let there be light He created just that, light. Check the Hebrew. God then tells us this light is an essential part of what constitutes a 24hr day. There was evening, (the end of the light part), and there was morning (the end of the dark part) one day, just as we live them. In Biblical terms each day begins at evening.

There is no mention of Jesus being created here, nor is it mentioned anywhere in Scripture. Only the opposite.

Colossians, as quoted, says Jesus is before all things, all things being created by Him. Being the Creator of everything which was created He cannot be a creature. Unless He created Himself!

To continue to hold to your position forces you to ignore what Scripture does say.
---Warwick on 6/27/11


And out of the woodwork come the Jehovah's Witnesses cutting and pasting the antiChristian nonsense their organization provides. We have seen, and contradicted it all, many times before. There is nothing new, or correct here.

Same old same old antiChristian missinformation.
---Warwick on 6/27/11


Scott, you claim not to be a JW but passionately defend its error! Strange.

The king of cut and paste!

Arche in Revelation does mean beginning, i.e.Jesus is the first cause, He who began Creation. That He is Creator, and not created is confirmed by Colossians 1:16,17.

Interestingly 'architect' in English is derived from the Greek 'arche.' The architect is he who designs and begins, not the one created!

Regarding Revelation 3:14 The Jerusalem Bible has "ultimate source" (of God's creation. The New English Bible has "prime source". Barclays "the moving cause." Knox "the source" of God's creation. Williams and Goodspeeds "the beginner" (of God's creation.)
---Warwick on 6/27/11


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If Jesus is the only-begotten Son of God (as John 3:16 says), that means He is likewise God, for a father begets something of the same nature as Himself.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/27/11


Rickey

I couldn't agree with you more.
He had Godship in Heaven and manship upon earth.

By saying He was not God on earth actually gives Him more Glory than saying He was God on earth.

God could not sin or be tempted to do so, Jesus coming as man allowed Him to overcome and show us that sin could be overcame by walking in the Spirit of the Father and doing the will of the Father.

Great post, Paul
---paul on 6/27/11


I gave two more examples that were not posted. They too bear witness that Jesus is the Son of God.

Warwick,
I don't have Jesus creating himself. The when God said let there be light he spake Jesus into existence. A Father can create the Son but a father is not a son. There is a difference between the light of day 1 and the lights of day 4 that show the importance of each.
As for the meaning of words by the concordance and such remember that when Jesus said temple he meant his body and the scribes and pharisees who knew the meaning of Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic better than any of us did not realize his word means whatever he says. That is why the carnal mind cannot grasp what the Spirit reveals.
Hope this helps.
May God bless.
---Del on 6/27/11


\\When Christ is referred to as 'the First and the Last' in Revelation it is always to do with his death and resurrection- \\

So, when Jesus said, "I am the First and the Last," He really meant, "I am neither the first nor the last."

You don't actually think He's the last one to be resurrected, do you?

Do I understand you properly?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/27/11


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Psa.111 v 9, Isa.9 v 6, 1st. John 8 v 58, Tim. 3 v 16, Colo. 2 v 9, Rev. 22 v 13. Jesus Christ Is The Living God. It was
the flesh that died on the cross.
---Lawrence on 6/27/11


On Earth, Jesus was not God. Before He came to earth He was God. In the beginning there was no Trinity.(Genesis 1:1, John 1:1)
Jesus was a man on earth like us. He didn't do miracles until He was anointed by God. If He was God while He was on earth then He could've did miracles when He felt like it..before He was baptized. On earth He was a man, Jesus. In heaven He was God...the Word.

In Heaven He was God, the Word. On earth He was Jesus.
So to answer the question, I would say that He is both, 100% God in Heaven during Eternity past & 100% Man/Son of God while on Earth.
---Rickey on 6/27/11


No trinitarian has risen to the challenge and answered my simple questions:

1 Tim.3:16, If 'God' was made manifest in flesh-

Why would God need to show 'godly devotion' to Himself? Why would God need to become flesh in order to do so? Where was AlmightyGod before being 'raised up in glory'? Who 'raised' AlmightyGod?

If the trinity is truth, these should be easily answered.

Whilst I'm on the subject, the resurrected Jesus refers to God as 'my God' at Rev.3:12. Why would the glorified Jesus refer to anyone as 'God' if he is God?

Shira3877, that expression you use, 'God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit' like the 'trinity' is not found anywhere in the Bible.
---David8318 on 6/27/11


When Christ is referred to as 'the First and the Last' in Revelation it is always to do with his death and resurrection-

Revelation 1:17,18, 'and I became dead, but, look! I am living.'

Revelation 2:8, 'who became dead and came to life again.'

These verses cannot refer to Almighty God because God is eternal and cannot die and was not the one prophesied to die on mankinds behalf. The Messiah (Christ) was.

Isaiah used 'First and Last' with reference to Jehovah because of God's position as Almighty God. Isaiah did not say God would 'die and be raised up again' and thus cannot be equated with the title applied to Jesus at Rev.1:17 or 2:8 who did 'die and was raised up again'.
---David8318 on 6/27/11


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Paul: If you can, please understand this isn't a personal attack against you. Rather, it's hopefully a wake up call against your spuriously faulty thinking regarding Jesus. It's not about what I say! What you think you know (what you feel) doesn't come anywhere close to what the Bible actually says in the matter. It's quite obvious you really don't "comprehend" Scripture, but desperately need help in that regard.
---Leon on 6/27/11


Paul, judging by Leon's responses to me and you, I doubt whether Leon is able to pose a counter view.

No where in scripture is Jesus referred to as God. It is always 'the Son of God'. Trinitarians must resort to Plato's philosophies which convinces them to believe how Jesus is the same 'nature' and 'substance' as God, and therefore must be God. This is how Christendom's trinity was originally conceived by pagan Roman Emperor's bent on controlling the masses through their form of false trinitarian religion.

The trinity is the backbone of the apostasy foretold by the Apostle Paul (2 Thess.2:3) and is a dogma found in many churches of 'Babylon the Great' (Revelation 18:1-4).
---David8318 on 6/27/11


leon
Why must you personaly attck me for expressing my view?
If you disagree then pose a counter view.
But by firing the because I said so bullet wrapped in an insult shows you living up to your own accusations.
Paul
---Paul on 6/27/11


Warwick, it's your indoctrination into Neo-Platonic philosophy which leads you believe a son is his father's equal.

So are you trying to tell us that a son is the same age as his father, and that a son knows everything his father knows? In an earthly setting your reasoning is seriously flawed. Also with Christ, he didn't know matters his Father only knew- Mt.24:36. Your Neo-Platonic reasoning is flawed and can be exposed by truth.

Is this a cue for more of your Platonic philosophy? Are you going to tell us through your Platonic indoctrination how Jesus shares the same 'nature' or 'substance' as his Father and therefore 'Jesus must be God'- it's what you normally do.
---David8318 on 6/27/11


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Christ is alive seated at the right hand of The Father in Heaven

Per Holy Scripture Christ is the firstfruits of MANY 1Corin 15:20,23 James 1:18, Rev 14:4

Christ as the SON of The Father in Heaven is a God-being

just as Christ is the son of God so will be those who are born again and resurrected to SPIRIT will become sons of God too 1Corin 15

those who are resurrected to Spirit life will be sons of God ruling in Gods Kingdom on earth with Christ who will rule all the earth from Jerusalem
---Rhonda on 6/27/11


Jesus is God. In John 1:1, 14 & Genesis 1:1 it shows that there was no Trinity in the beginning. God divinely formed the Trinity. In John 8:58 Jesus showed again that He is God.

Christ in the Old Testament was call "Immanuel" meaning God among us. God came to earth in the form of man to fix what we couldn't fix.
---Rickey on 6/27/11


Revelation 3:14 - 'Arche'

True to form, Warwick ignores the first lexical meaning assigned to 'arche':

Strong's Concordance:

Arche= 1) beginning, origin

Even trinitarian theologian Albert Barnes says:

"The word properly refers to the commencement of a thing, not its authorship, and denotes properly primacy in time, and primacy in rank, but not primacy in the sense of causing anything to exist.... the word is not, therefore, found in the sense of authorship, as denoting that one is the beginning of anything in the sense that he caused it to have an existence."

Barnes' Notes on the New Testament, p. 1569.
---scott on 6/27/11


The Greek-English Lexicon of the NT and Other Early Christian Literature by Arndt and Gingrich (BAGD) on "Arche"

Although the (older) BAGD defines "arche" in Rev.3:14 as "first cause" it also says that it could also have the meaning at this same place as "first created" as a linguistical possibility -p.112,113. However...

...in the up-dated BDAG (3rd ed.) this was revised to read: "but the meaning beginning= 'first created' is linguistically probable."

And It should be pointed out that this Greek lexicon does not cite any Biblical passages in support of the meaning of it's earlier statement regarding "first cause".
---scott on 6/27/11


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"The only readily available translation that says "Word was a god" is the New Word (sic) Mistranslation...Try again." Cluny

Well these seem readily available:

"The Word was a god". The New Testament in an Improved Version, 1808.

"The Word was a God". The NT In Greek and English, Abner Kneeland, 1822.

"As a god the Command was". A Literal Translation Of The New Testament, Herman Heinfetter, 1863.

"And a God (i.e. a Divine Being) was the Word". Concise Commentary On The Holy Bible, Robert Young, c. 1885.

"And (a) God was the word". The Coptic Version of the New Testament, George William Horner, 1911.

Try again.
---scott on 6/27/11


God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost, some say Holy Spirit which has the same meaning. Hard to perceive but I do understand it.
---shira3877 on 6/27/11


Paul, I don't think you were ranting at all, just making a point. People around here tend to use abrasive and inflamatory language when they respond to what they don't believe is right, a somewhat distasteful trait of too many professing Christians.
---John.usa on 6/27/11


Peace be unto you!
Why are ye troubled?
And why do thoughts arise in your hearts?

Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself
Handle me, and see
For a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have!

Hereby know ye the Spirit of God
Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God!
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God!

God is a Spirit!
And they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

Joh 14:9
Peace!
---TheSeg on 6/27/11


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Del, Revelation 3:14 does not say Jesus was the first creature. The Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament (Arndt and Gingrich) 'beginning' (Gk Arche) here means first cause- i.e. Jesus is the first cause of creation-the Creator.

This is confirmed by Colossians 1:15,16 "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn (GK prototokos, first in rank, preeminent one, heir) over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities, all things were created by him and for him."

Jesus cannot be created in any sense, "For by him all things were created."

You have Him creating Himself.
---Warwick on 6/27/11


Willa, see Isaiah 44:6 " This is what the LORD saysIsraels King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last, apart from me there is no God."

Revelation ch.1:7 talks about He who is coming, the one they pierced. Who was pierced? See John 19:34. Who is coming? See Revelation 22:20. It is Jesus!

What is Jesus called? The Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last.

See also vs 17,18. Who is the living one, who was dead and is now alive? Jesus, and He again is called the First and the Last.

In Isaiah God says He is the first and the last, the only God. However in Revelation that exact same title is given to Jesus. Therefore they are one and the same.
---Warwick on 6/27/11


Paul makes a good point. Jesus could not have been God because Jesus was the Christ. Almighty God could not have been the Christ. Which is why a trinitarian cannot be a Christian because they are a contradiction in terms.

Spirit creatures knew the difference between Christ the 'Son of God' and the Almighty God. Almighty God cannot be tempted into sin. Jesus Christ however was tempted- Matthew 4:1-10. Had Jesus been 'God', Satan would not have tried in the first place.

Apostle Paul describes Jesus as the 'last Adam', precisely for these reasons. Because of the faithful life of the 'last Adam', Jesus becomes our saviour from the sin of 'first Adam'- 1 Cor.15:45, Ro.5:17,18.
---David8318 on 6/27/11


Jesus Christ is Lord, pure and simple--and the Son of God! He is beyond description!
---Mary on 6/27/11


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John 8:58 Very truly I tell you, Jesus answered, before Abraham was born, I am! 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.
---Christina on 6/27/11


Both here is why.
Son of God - John 5:19 - /[The Son] can only do what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does./
Jesus is the servant of God the way a perfect son is servant to a perfect father.
Jesus is God - John 14:9 /Anyone who sees me [Jesus] has seen the father/ and John 10:30 /I and the Father are one/. Due to the extraordinary relationship between God the Father and Jesus. Jesus is both servant of God and God. Read "The Shack" by William P. Young.
---Scott on 6/27/11


John 17:20,21
[20] Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word,
[21] That they all may be one, as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

This makes it clear that being one is in Spirit or in unity.
Otherwise we would be God according to the prayer of Jesus.

Oneness is a unity of the faith and Spirit whereby all Christians should believe and speak the same things which they obviously do not due to doctrinal differences and false teachings and the spirit of err and the carnal mind of man.
---Del on 6/27/11


Someone asked about Jesus being created.

Revelation 3:14
[14] And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write, These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God,

We see Jesus being spoken into existence as the beginning of God's creation.

Genesis 1:3
[3] And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

The light on the first day is different from the light on the fourth day. (vs.5)

Genesis 1:16,19
[16] And God made two great lights, the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
[19] And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
---Del on 6/26/11


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Someone mentioned God being savior. Nehemiah 9:27 mentions "saviors" being "given" to Israel, which of coarse is all throughout Judges. God gave the saviors just as He gave His only begotten son. He saves through men but it is God who is to get the glory as you often see in the Gospels and Acts when God worked through Jesus or the Apostles to so His power. He alone is our savior. Jesus prayed not my will but your will be done. It was God who saved us through Jesus who is our savior just as those in Judges.

Alpha and Omega, beginning and the end is used one time speaking about Christ in Rev. 22:13 but in 16 he is the root and descendant of David which leads me to believe it has a different meaning than him being God.
---willa5568 on 6/26/11


Paul: You're obviously deluded by your own self inflicted nonsense (SIN). You desperately need to accept the plain & simple truth of the Bible. How old are you anyhow? Your rantings sound like those of a child.
---Leon on 6/26/11


In the beginning was the Word, AND THE WORD WAS GOD!

(14)AND THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH, and dwelt among us.
---John on 6/26/11


I comprehend scriptures to teach that Jesus is the Son of God, not God himself.

Here is the biggest theological fallacy in Jesus being God.

Jesus came down was born of flesh to overcome sin in the flesh as well as take its sting by overcoming the grave, most would agree with that.

But if God is light and in Him is no darkness, shadow of turning or He cant tempt or be tempted with evil then Christ could not be God.

Here's why, Christ had occasion to sin for the scriptures bare it out to us, therefore if He had occasion to sin but God could not sin then where would be our example as to overcoming sin in the flesh.

God couldn't sin but Jesus could have so therefore Jesus could not be God but the Son of God.
---paul on 6/26/11


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I do not know Hebrew or Greek, but it seems to me that in explaining whether Jesus is God or not, the book of John has to play a featured role. The first chapter of the book of John, especially verse 1-3 should be compared with Genesis 1:1.

Now, I have two questions: (i) Who created the earth? And if Jesus is not God, is He a created being? That is, does Jesus have a beginning?
---Allan on 6/26/11


had a revelation one nite w/a majestic picture of Christ, I was transfixed, hard to explain, supernatural experience, at the end He whispered..." I want you to know I live in the souls of all men." I believe He was what he claimed to be!
---Fred_Park on 6/26/11


Cluny,

actually because there is no definite article before theos, it is a legitimate translation to say "a god" by adding an indefinite article. Indefinite articles are not in the Greek but are often used to allow the translation to read properly into the English, though I do disagree here.

Consider this if what you suggest is true.

If the word is with God, that means the word and God are separate persons or things. But then the word is God so they are the same person or thing. You say the son is the word and the Father is God if I am correct, who the son was with. But then the son is also God, which the previous statement says is the Father. It does not say the word was God also, but was God. Please explain.
---willa5568 on 6/26/11


Jesus said himself he is not God.

John7:28
[28] Then cried Jesus in the temple as he taught, saying, Ye both know me, and ye know whence I am: and I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not.

John 20:17
[17] Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God.

Revelation 5:7
[7] And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

He did not send himself.
He did not ascend unto himself.
He did not take the book out of his own hand.
---Del on 6/26/11


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David8318 are you a JW?
---John on 6/26/11


David: I've "noticed" how self-absorbed you are. That's the problem with people like you who are puffed up with their own vanity (self-righteous conceit). You twist & distort God's Biblical truth all the while thinking more highly of yourself than you should. (Is. 55:6-11) You're not in a good place & are keeping very bad company.(Is. 14:13-15)
---Leon on 6/26/11


David, your Jehovah's Witness indoctrination blinds you.

Scripture describes Jesus as 'the Son of God' meaning He is God, the Father's equal. The Bible is Gods word, for man (not Gods word for God) written in terms we can understand.

In earthly terms a son is equal to his father, and an only son (as Jesus is) inherits all the father has.

God calls himself, the Creator, the Saviour, the Redeemer, the Beginning and the End. He also calls Jesus by these exact same titles. In your reasoning we must have two Creators, two Saviours, two Redeemers, and two who are the Beginning and the End. No, they are one and the same.
---Warwick on 6/26/11


It's amazing how obvious the Neo-platonists are on this thread. They all come out with Plato's philosophy of metaphysics- 'nature and substance'- to explain away their trinity dogma.

Take Cluny's Neo-Platonic explanation for example- 'Sons always share the same nature as their fathers... The Son of God is not the Father, but He is still God.'

This is pure Neo-Platonism. This is how Hellenic theologians originally used Plato's philosophy to explain 'God' in terms they could understand. Notice how Cluny is not able to quote any Biblical reference in support of his conclusions. Cluny cannot. The trinity dogma is unscriptural.

Jehovah is God Almighty, (Gen.17:1) Jesus is His Son (Jo.10:36).
---David8318 on 6/26/11


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cont.

"The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you, therefore the child to be born will be called holy- the Son of God". The "therefore" is why he will be called the son of God, because the power of the Most High overshadows her, which causes her to conceive. In the YLT it says "...that holy begotten thing will be called the son of God". He is the son of God because he is holy, which means sacred, pure blameless, not God. Also son of God is a Messianic title.

This is Gabriel, an angel sent by God, giving this message and in no way says he is God.
---willa5568 on 6/26/11


The Bible says Jesus is BOTH the Son of God and God (the 2nd part of the trinity -Elohim in Hebrew). Also if you study the Hebrew, you will find the statement nailed to the cross "Jesus of Nazareth, The King of the Jews = YHVH (abr. for Yahova or Jahova = God). (Matt. 16:16: Jn 1:1,14, 1 Jn 5:5b-12).
---Leslie on 6/26/11


"Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him","..Whom, God, raised up" "...This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses"(Acts 2:22,24,32)
" The God of our fathers raised Jesus..","God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior.." (Act 5:30,31)
"against thy holy servant Jesus, whom thou hadst anointed"(Acts 4:27)
"how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power"(Acts 10:38)
"through this man forgiveness of sins is proclaimed"(Acts 13:18)
This is what the Apostles preached, no mention of Jesus being God.
---willa5568 on 6/26/11


\\John 1:1,36, 'the Word was a god... this one is the Son of God.'\\

WRONG!

What is says in Greek is "Theos en o Logos." The Word was God.

The only readily available translation that says "Word was a god" is the New Word Mistranslation by Jehovah's False Witnesses.

Try again.


Glory to Jesus Christ.
---Cluny on 6/26/11


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1 Timothy 3:16 quoted by Joseph reads, 'He who was revealed in the flesh, Was vindicated in the Spirit... Taken up in glory.' (NIV)

Trinitarian translators however say, 'God was manifest in the flesh'. The Greek word 'theos' is not used in 1 Tim.3:16.

The original Greek uses the word 'HE' in this verse- but lets go with the trinitarian and say it's 'GOD'.

This would mean Paul taught the 'sacred secret' meant 'GOD' was manifest in flesh to show 'godly devotion' to Himself, and then be 'raised up in glory'.

Why would God need to show 'godly devotion' to Himself? Why would God need to become flesh in order to do so? Where was AlmightyGod before being 'raised up in glory'? Who 'raised' AlmightyGod? A trinity-Mystery?
---David8318 on 6/26/11


In Luke Chp. 1 God sends Gabriel to Mary who found favor with God to whom he said "you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus". To conceive in the womb is the act of the sperm being joined together with the egg, of which will cause her to bear a son. "He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord(YHWH) God will give to him the throne of his father David,he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end". YHWH God gives this man the throne of David. He is often called son of David a Messianic title.
---willa5568 on 6/26/11


paul, assuming for a moment that your surname is Smith, would your son likewise be Smith, or merely the son of Smith.

Sons always share the same nature as their fathers.

The Son of God is not the Father, but He is still God.

And this is what the Bible says.

Glory to Jesus Christ.
---Cluny on 6/26/11


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