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Prophecies Of Paul

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 ---1st_cliff on 6/28/11
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"Elohim is only plural when referring to more than one god or judge." Warwick...again.

This is completely false and reveals a total lack of understanding of biblical or Classical Hebrew.

Gesenius' Hebrew Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament (p. 49), shows that Elohim, is sometimes used in a numerically plural sense for angels, judges, and false gods. But it also says,

"The plural of majesty [for elohim], occurs, on the other hand, more than two thousand times." And that elohim when used in that sense "occurs in a [numerically] singular sense" and is "constr[ued] with a verb ... and adjective in the singular."
---scott on 7/11/11

'Genesis 19:24 Two Jehovahs' Who else...Warwick

The explanatory note by trinitarian Dr. Young in Young's Concise Critical Bible Commentary states: "JEHOVAH...JEHOVAH, i.e. from Himself."

"And King Solomon gave to the Queen of Sheba all that she desired, whatever she asked besides what was given her by the bounty of King Solomon." 1 Kings 10:13, RSV. (Cf. KJV.)

One Solomon and only one Jehovah

"Then the LORD rained down fire and brimstone from the skies on Sodom and Gomorrah." New English Bible, also NEB, REB, AT, Mo, LB, and GNB

Others, like the NJB, have rendered it "[Jehovah] rained down on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire of his own sending."
---scott on 7/11/11

Willa, to liken Aaron to God is sleight of hand.

Jesus is called by the same names as God- both are Creator, Redeemer, and the Alpha and the Omega et al. How many Creators, Redeemers and The Alpha and the Omega do you have? Two, or are there more?

You wrote ""Let us" could be a thousand people..."

This is God speaking, not people!

"and Elohim is only plural when referring to more than one god or judge,"

Again it is 'Elohim' speaking, no one else.

"which make trinitarians say YHWH is more than one God."

Trinitarians do not believe Jehovah is more than one God!
---Warwick on 7/11/11

"Meaning God is more than 1. Not more than one God." Warwick

Not more than one? Where do you get this stuff?

Strong's Concordance-


1. (plural)
a) rulers, judges
b) divine ones
c) angels
d) gods

2) (plural intensive - singular meaning)
a) god, goddess
b) godlike one
c) works or special possessions of God
d) the (true) God
e) God
---scott on 7/11/11


there is a problem saying Elohim means God is more than one but one God. First it says I, he, him, me, his which are all singular pronouns that determine if Elohim is plural or not. If not you have to say we, us or them. Second plural of Elohim is gods. You will find no where unless there is a singular pronoun to determine if it is one that it doesn't mean gods.

Example: 1:26 Elohim says let us make man in our image
but in 1:27 it says Elohim created man in HIS image

So his being a singular pronoun, determines whether Elohim is plural or singular, "his" can not be more than one and that being a person not thing or it which is what you say if God is three persons.
---willa5568 on 7/11/11

Warwick, Without getting "technical" here's a problem,
Jesus referred to His disciples as "these my BROTHERS"
So as you state Many times "Jesus is GOD" does this not make them and you "God's brothers?"
I find this blasphemous, don't you?
---1st_cliff on 7/11/11

Willa, In Genesis 1 God is 'Elohim' the plural of El, meaning God is more than 1. Not more than one God.

Genesis 19:24 reads "Then Jehovah made it rain sulphur and fire from Jehovah, from the heavens,..."

The first Jehovah who had been upon earth talking with Abraham called down destruction from Jehovah in heaven.

Zechariah 2:9,10 '...And you people will certainly know that Jehovah of armies has sent me "Cry out loudly and rejoice O daughter of Zion,for here I am coming, ....." is the utterance of Jehovah.

Once again we have two Jehovah's.
---Warwick on 7/11/11


odd you use 1Peter:

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ-1:3

who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory-1:21

offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ--2:5

the God of all grace, who has called you to his eternal glory in Christ To him be the dominion forever and ever--5:10,11

this same Peter in Acts says:

Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him--2:22

(Jesus)Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God--2:33

The God of our fathers, hath raised up Jesus--5:30

will you listen to Peter?
---willa5568 on 7/11/11


no where in the OT does it say God is a trinity. But rather passages that say "let us" or the plurality of Elohim are used to justify it. "Let us" could be a thousand people and Elohim is only plural when referring to more than one god or judge, which make trinitarians say YHWH is more than one God. If you make a passage say Jesus is God because his name is aquainted with God then so is Aaron

By this you shall know that I am the LORD: behold, with the staff that is in my hand I will strike the water that is in the Nile--Exodus 7:17

the LORD said to Moses, Say to Aaron, Take your staff and stretch out your hand over the waters--Exodus 7:19
---willa5568 on 7/11/11

"I don't need the creeds of the RCC..." Mark_V

And yet it those very creeds that have defined the Trinity in language that you (all) use to defend it. (Except the part about eternal punishment for leaving the Catholic Faith).

Language that is not found anywhere in God's word.

Get thee to a confessional for leaving the church that has defined your belief in a mysterious three-in-one God.
---scott on 7/11/11

Scott/Willa, I don't need the creeds of the RCC to believe the Word of God. Nothing anyone gives both of you will convince you of anything. Pilot ask, what is the Truth? asking when the Truth was in front of him. If both of you were open for the Truth it would be a different story. But you are not willing either to hear the Truth no matter how many Scriptures are presented to you. I already know the history of the Church. And have read about many heretics, and they went to the grave with the same believe. Stripping Christ of His deity as they were destined to. "A stone of stumbling, and a Rock or offence, even to them who stumble at the Word, being disobedient, where unto also they were appointed" 1 Peter 2:8.
---Mark_V. on 7/11/11

"Trinity... only ratified at Constantinople...." Warwick

The Athanasian Creed (381 Constantinopal) not only is the first Creed to identify all three components of the 'trinity' but it begins by saying:

"Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly..."

Are you Catholic? The Creed that defines the Trinity 348 years after Christ says that you will not be saved unless you are.

Is this creed right or wrong?
---scott on 7/11/11

"Faith in the deity of Christ is necessary to being a Christian." Mark_V

What verse in God's word can you use to support such a claim? Just one?

It is the Athanasian Creed (381) that makes a similar claim regarding belief in the Trinity saying "He that will be saved let him think upon the trinity."

But is also says:

"Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly."

Mark_V are you a lost sheep that has strayed from the 'true faith'?
---scott on 7/11/11


answer the heretic this question

1Timothy 6:13-16: who has immortality ALONE and is the ONLY Sovereign, Jesus or God, they are distinct here?

And if you do some study about unbiased history you will find if not for the emperor who backed Athanasius,who was exiled by Constantine several times in favour of Arianism. You will find no where did the Jews of Jesus' time or before believed in a triune God: If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, He is our God.--John 8:54, the Father is their God alone, did Jesus change that and say he to is their God because some Gentile apologist say so? If it says this is the God and Father of Jesus, I'll believe God not dogma.
---willa5568 on 7/11/11

Faith in the deity of Christ is necessary to being a Christian. It is an essential part of the New Testament gospel of Christ. Yet in every century the church has been forced to deal with people like those here who claim to be Christians while denying or distoring the deity of Christ. The confession of the deity of Christ is drawn from the manifold witness of the New Testament. As the Logos Incarnated. Christ is revealed as being not only preexistent to creation, but eternal. The Arian heresy is alive and well even in this century. Nothing has changed just the people. No amount of passages will ever convience a hardened heart. Heretics will always be around.
---Mark_V. on 7/11/11

Scott the doctrine of the Trinity is in the OT and was only ratified at Constantinople.
---Warwick on 7/11/11

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I want to encourage you to do something. Put aside what I say is right and what you say is right and read all of scripture. If you find it saying plainly Jesus is God and is part of the three persons of God in the sense that it says "the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ" which yo can not debate over, then I will agree with you. If not then I hope you will be objective enough to look at what I have said.I wish you well and pray you will consider and be bold enough to ask questions.
---willa5568 on 7/11/11

Willa, it appears you accept when Jesus says He is 'one' with the Father this is not anyway like the same as we being 'one' with Jesus or with each other.

The Jesus who says He and the Father are 'one' is by His titles/names, God.

With the Father he shares: Creator, Redeemer, Saviour, the Aplha and the Omega.

In Isaiah 44:8 God says He is the one and only rock. One Corinthians 10:4 says the rock which followed the Israelites was Christ!

In Isaiah 42:8 God says He will not share His glory with anyone.

However in John 17:5 Jesus says ".now glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began."

Jesus rightly says "I and the Father are one."
---Warwick on 7/11/11


your concept of oneness implies I am saying we are equal to Jesus and God not purpose, so I don't think you understood what my answer was. And referring to kreitton I gave you the words meaning and superior/more excellent is a better way to translate it. And God is kreitton and meizon to Christ. 1Corinthians 15:20-28 Christ hands over the kingdom to God and will be subordinate that God will be all in all. Jesus is ruling as king and in his glory yet he gives the kingdom to God, who is not Jesus according to this? 1Timothy 6:13-16: who has immortality ALONE and is the ONLY Sovereign, Jesus or God, they are distinct here?
---willa5568 on 7/10/11

Willa, Jesus is better than angels in essence as Hebrews Ch. 1 says:

No angel is called God's Son.
No angel can call God "My Father."
Angels are commanded to worship Jesus.
To no angel does God ever say "In the beginning O Lord you laid the foundations of the earth."
'To which of the angels did God ever say "sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet."'

God is not better (kreitton) than Jesus but greater (meizon) as a king is greater but not better than his subjects. Jesus was obviously in a lower position on earth than the Father because He "made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness" Philippians 2:7
---Warwick on 7/10/11

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"However in John 10:33 and 14:28 the word Jesus uses is not 'kreitton' but 'meizon' which means greater in rank not greater in very nature." Warwick


Regarding 10:33- This is false because neither 'meizon' or 'kreitton' appear.

John 14:28- Meizon. Greater in only rank?

John 10:29
"My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater (meizon) than all..."

The Almighty is only greater than all (including warwick) in rank? God is not greater in nature that all?

John 15:13
"Greater (meizon) love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."

Christ's love for mankind is only greater (meizon) as an issue of rank?
---scott on 7/10/11

Zechariah 12:10

"...when they look upon him whom they have pierced" - RSV. Also in agreement with this rendering are NRSV, GNB, MLB, NAB (1970), NAB (1991), LB, Mo, AT, JB, NJB, NLV, BBE, and Byington. (ASV says in a footnote for "me" in Zech. 12:10: "According to some MSS. [manuscripts], `him'." Also see Rotherham footnote.)

The context tells us that "him" is the correct rendering. After saying that they will look upon me (or him) God continues with "they shall mourn for HIM". The KJV (Etc) contradicts itself here. The "me" in the first half simply does not agree with the "him" of the second.
---scott on 7/10/11

Willa, you have not answered my question. If the oneness that Jesus shares with the Father is the same as the oneness believers have with Jesus I should be able to say:

"Whatever the Father does Warwick also does in like manner" John 5:19.

Or "He that does not honour Warwick does not honour the Father.." John 5:23

Can I say "He who has seen Warwick has seen the Father" John 14:9
---Warwick on 7/10/11

He also would know Jesus (God with us) would bring it to a head, as He has. Warwick

You mean the church 'fathers' would bring it to a head 348 years after the death of Christ at the Council of Constantinopal.

You might be getting Emporer Theodosius confused with Jesus Christ.
---scott on 7/10/11

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Cliff thanks for the compliments.

I don't believe God was quiet about the Trinity in the OT. Maybe He played it down, knowing the fuss it would cause, as we see on these pages. He also would know Jesus (God with us) would bring it to a head, as He has.

Jeremiah 23:6 Jehovah says the coming Saviour will be named Jehovah our Righteousness.

Zechariah 12 Jehovah says "They will look upon me, the one they have pierced."

Revelation 1:7 says it was the Lord Jesus who was pierced.

The Old Testament is the New Testament concealed, and the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed. That which was alluded to in the OT is up front in the NT!
---Warwick on 7/10/11


the only thing that has to do with Gods purpose is him doing what he sees the Father do. We are not one in equality with Christ, he is king,nor is he with the Father, his God.

"Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord", but I do as the Father has commanded me--John 5:19

I have not spoken on my own authority, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment-what to say and what to speak--John 12:49
He revealed the Father through obedience "he has made him known"--1:18

I say these things so that you may be saved--5:34

Jesus was sent to proclaim the gospel and saves us, we are to proclaim what he has done and said. Same purpose, to save
---willa5568 on 7/10/11

Willa, I have asked this question a few times but the gurus have been unable or unwilling to attempt an answer.

You claim Jesus saying He is 'one' with the Father simply means He was claiming to be one in purpose, not a claim to be God. Jesus prayed His followers would likewise be 'one.'

Therefore being one in purpose with Jesus can I claim:

"Whatever the Father does Warwick also does in like manner" John 5:19.

Or "He that does not honour Warwick does not honour the Father.." John 5:23

Can I say "He who has seen Warwick has seen the Father" John 14:9

---Warwick on 7/10/11


according to Thayers lexicon
Kreitton means:
1. more useful, more serviceable, more advantageous
2. more excellent

it has nothing to do with nature whatsoever

Meizon: 1. greater, larger, elder, stronger

considering the context "no one is able to snatch them out of the Fathers hand" it is power/strength not rank that Jesus speaks of. The better word to use for rank is "megas"

You imply they believed Christ said he was God and that is why they were going to stone him, but when he was crucified this is what they said "He trusts in God, let God deliver him now, if he desires him. For he said, I am the Son of God."--Matt. 27:43, it seems your assessment is wrong.
---willa5568 on 7/10/11

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Willa, Jesus is not a son of God, but the Son of God. We are sons of God but He is the only Son-".being in very nature God..." Philippians 2:6

As regards 'greater' see Hebrews 1:4 where Jesus is described as 'better' than the angels. The Greek word used ('kreitton') means He is not just of a higher rank than angels but better as to His very nature, as the verses which follow after that show.

However in John 10:33 and 14:28 the word Jesus uses is not 'kreitton' but 'meizon' which means greater in rank, not greater in very nature. The president of a country is greater 'meizon,' in a higher position, but not 'kreitton' better in nature or substance than his fellow countrymen.
---Warwick on 7/10/11

Warwick, For all your intellect and bible savvy, in this area you are very "short sighted"
What reason would God have in not informing "His" people, for 4,000 years, that he was a 3 part God?
On the contrary He said He was a "One" part God Deut.6.4!
The other two are separate entities,Christ Jesus and Holy Spirit!
God(YHWH) is the Supreme being with a Son,Jesus, and together they use Holy Spirit(Power).
This is not rocket science!
Using "abstracts" to prove a point is bordering on mythology!
---1st_cliff on 7/10/11


I said, You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you--Psalms 82:6

This is Jesus' reference in John 10:33 and he of coarse was the son of God. Also you have to read the whole context, because in this dialogue Jesus says the Father is greater than him.

that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us...The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one--John 17:21 -26

this is one in purpose as Jesus was with his Father, we are to be united, one, in accomplishing the Fathers will as Jesus was
---willa5568 on 7/10/11

Scott, at John 10:33 'theos' appears without the definite article. So many translators accurately have the Jews accusing Jesus of calling himself 'a god'.

The rendering 'a god' is appropriate because Jesus quotes Psalms 82:6 in his defence which refers to 'gods' and not to 'the God'.

Also, Jesus in the same defence stated to the Jews that rather than claiming he was 'God', he said 'I am God's Son'- John 10:36.

Indoctrination into trinitarianism appears to cause some to look no further than the verses they mistranslate.
---David8318 on 7/10/11

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John 10:30- context

'Making yourself God' was an accusation made by the Jews and Jesus corrected them:

10:34 - Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I said, you are gods'??

10:35 - If he called them gods to whom the word of God came--and Scripture cannot be broken--

10:36 - do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?

Christ makes clear 1. There were those (whether Judges, angels, etc.) appropriately called gods and 2. that he simply called himself 'son of God'. Their accusation was without any basis as is your conclusion.
---scott on 7/10/11

Scott regarding John 10:30 you have tied yourself up in convenient definitions of 'one' Gk. 'hen." But you miss the context. Jesus said "I and my Father are one"- the Jews wanted to kill Him for blasphemy as they knew He was calling Himself God!

Surely they were one in purpose with the Father so why did they want to kill Him for saying likewise?

Obvious to those not indoctrinated in cultic thinking.

Revelation 1:7,8-someone is coming, someone who was "pierced." Who was pierced when crucified? Jesus! But verse 8 says Jehovah is coming. But 22:20 says Jesus is coming.

To Trinitarians no problemas. But to JW's again you have two persons calling themselves God!
---Warwick on 7/10/11

WBTS -- Watchtower Bible and Tract Society-- The original name for Jehovah's Witnesses, right?

As for Paul. None of his prophesies have been fulfilled,unless he had some I'm not aware of.

He felt the end times would occur in his lifetime, but none of the prophets knew when their prophesies would be fulfilled. He didn't either.
Some Old Testament prophesies has been fullfilled. But have all of them?
---Donna66 on 7/9/11

"While interesting, it certainly is not the Word of God." christina

I never suggested otherwise. However some (yes uninspired) expert opinions carry considerable weight:

Bryan R. Wilson, Ph.D., (University of Oxford, 1926 - 2004, Emeritus Professor at All Souls College). He was a well known British scholar of religion and wrote extensively about New Religious Movements and apostates (ex-members who become openly critical of the group they were once a member of).

The quote below was included in an article entitled 'Apostates and New Religious Movements'.

It may not be Inspired but it is certainly enlightening.
---scott on 7/5/11

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An interesting fact about JWs is that Governments,local,federal and state (or provincial) are viewed as satan's organization Double standards??
---1st_cliff on 7/5/11

Well, they are correct right now....the admin in place now endorses,legalizes things GOD doesn't.
Never met an organized name brand that had exclusive understanding scripturally. They all twist scripture to fit what their needs or the offering plate.
One has to experience or be schooled in them to realize just what they are not getting truthwise as compared to what scripture really says.
They very well may be the ...wide way. Beware the docpuffys and docpuppies.
---Trav on 7/5/11

An interesting fact about JWs is that Governments,local,federal and state (or provincial) are viewed as satan's organization so they will not vote in any election:
Nor serve in the military or "serve" as elected rep.s
OTOH- These same governments,feed, clothe, house and give medical help to these same witnesses who take without feeling guilty!
The WBTS (God's organization)does not have the resourses to look after those who have served a lifetime!
Double standards??
---1st_cliff on 7/5/11

what are Paul's prohecies that need to materialize?
---michael_e on 7/5/11

Scott: ""Neither the objective sociological researcher nor the court of law can readily regard the apostate as a creditable or reliable source of evidence. He must always be seen as one whose personal history predisposes him to bias with respect to.... "

Bryan R. Wilson, Ph.D., University of Oxford

While interesting, it certainly is not the Word of God
---christina on 7/5/11

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"No matter how flat you make a pancake there are still two sides".
Dr. Phil :-)

"Neither the objective sociological researcher nor the court of law can readily regard the apostate as a creditable or reliable source of evidence. He must always be seen as one whose personal history predisposes him to bias with respect to...his previous religious commitment...

...suspicion must arise that he acts from a personal motivation to vindicate himself and to regain his self-esteem, by showing himself to have been first a victim but subsequently to have become a redeemed crusader. He is likely to be suggestible and ready to enlarge or embellish his grievances."

Bryan R. Wilson, Ph.D., University of Oxford
---scott on 7/5/11

As you wish David, You know when you touch a "sore spot" people will lash out,hurling insults and run.
Hey half my family stone me at every much for Christian love, but of course, you wouldn't comprehend that!
I was tried, convicted and sentenced without a trial,at least, in a kangaroo court, you get a hearing!
No other denomination takes delight in destroying families like the WBTS!
I'll never give up my freedom again,I hate "bondage"
---1st_cliff on 7/5/11

Your views are out of the dark ages and barbaric.

It was the trinitarian RCC who supported the Nazis in their extermination of the Jews. As soon as Jehovah removes Satan and his false religious organisations who promote warfare and death- the sooner the better!

All false religions, even eastern oriental religions hold in the main the same belief's as trinitarians- God's on earth (eg Emperor Hirohito), immortal soul, hellfire- It's all from the same sordid Satanic melting pot.

'A slave of the Lord does not need to fight'. I take my orders from the 'Prince of Peace'- Jesus Christ. As I find talking to a 'dog that has returned to its vomit' (2 Pe.2:22) somewhat distastefull- here endeth the discussion.
---David8318 on 7/4/11

David, When the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbour (12.7.41) How many were "trinitarians?"
Of the 6 million Jews Hitler exterminated, how many were "trinitarians?"
Trinitarian warfare is "spiritual" warfare, These were aggressors out to kill you and steal your land!
So you fold your arms and say "go ahead?"
BTW I can't believe I used to think that way!
How many that brought down the twin towers were "trinitarians"??
Your little "tirade" was straight out of the 1920s!
---1st_cliff on 7/4/11

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1Cliff, thanks for what you said. When my sister was put in the hospital with what is called PPH, she was visited by the elders and they told her what would happen if she took the blood. After a talking with them, she made the decision. She was ok with it until she was close to death. But it was too late for her. She went into a coma and after a week she died. At first I wanted to blast my anger towards the witnesses. But because God is full of grace, I was able to forgive them and move on. What I did was study as much as I could into their religion and why my sister refuse the blood and why she left her family and friends. Since then, I learned a lot of their teaching.
---Mark_V. on 7/3/11

Jehovah's Witnesses have far more important things to do than get involved in trinitarian warfare. Whatever man-made government is here, JW's will prevail. Jehovah is far stronger!

The First and Second World Wars were primarily fought in trinity-land. Governments backed by trinitarian false religious churches with priests and vicars preaching, fostering and encouraging both World Wars. The RCC were good bed-fellows with the Nazis.

JW's are neutral. Their King and commander in chief is Jesus Christ- not any pasty faced trinitarian vicar standing on his pulpit spouting war and death.

Of course, behind that thin trinitarian veneer is Satan the Devil, the real instigator of war.
---David8318 on 7/3/11

Mark V, My heart goes out to you, your sister was no doubt afraid to take the transfusion because that would have resulted in her being excommunicated and in her mind, not eligible for a resurrection! Bless you mark!
---1st_cliff on 7/3/11

David, A couple of times in your posts you came down hard on the military.
Had no one defended our nations the Axis powers would no doubt have won and you and I would have been enslaved,making our existence a living hell!
Through "genocide" the Jewish race would have been exterminated, followed no doubt by blacks and any others not favored!
So maybe you didn't want to fight, at least thank the ones who had the courage to go and save our butts!
Especially on monday (Worldly holiday?)
---1st_cliff on 7/3/11

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1Cliff, wow, didn't know you were a Jehovah Witness, I'm sure glad you left that cult. What you said concerning your own family not speaking to you is what happened to us. My sister was a witness, and she separated from the family and most all her friends until the last days of her life, before she died for refusing to use the blood. How my mother and I tried to get her to have the operation but she just refused because they would have to give her blood. When she finally realized that death was so close she agreed finally to have the blood but it was too late, she was already too far.
---Mark_V. on 7/3/11

David, I'll level with you,I was "in the truth" as they say for 22 years, held every position in the congregation including "Overseer" and gave many "hour lectures"
I reached the point where I could no longer tolerate the dictates of the Organization. As an Elder I wrote a letter of resignation and was immediately disfellowshipped!
My eldest daughter (baptized) just quit attending and nothing was done to her! My 2nd daughter,2 brothers,nieces nephews and best friends refused any association with me from that moment, 30 years ago,and even to this day!
I did not leave Jehovah, just the WBTS.
---1st_cliff on 7/2/11

David, **Adjusted understanding** is how you put it, isn't that the same as "present truth?" like, tomorrow, it may not be!
It's this sort of thing that stumbled me, nothing was "certain"!
The "Higher Powers" were the Government,No the higher Powers were Christ and Jehovah, no, back again to the Government.flip-flop 3 times!
The publication "Light"WBTS vol.1 1930 p.134 acknowledges that the Society was indeed "prophesying", also I remeber a Watchtower arcticle entitled "Then they will know a prophet was among them" (can't remember the date)pointing out that as a whole, the Organization was a collective prophet!
---1st_cliff on 7/2/11

Cliff- the adjusted understanding of the 'generation that will not pass away' was hardly earth shattering. There is still going to be 'a generation that will not pass away'. You don't like Bible study do you. You can't if you hate it if you don't get it right first time.

Proverbs 4:18, 'But the path of the righteous ones is like the bright light that is getting lighter and lighter until the day is firmly established.'

God doesn't reveal all information in every detail all at once. God has never done that.

Unlike the denominational churches of Christendom who remain stuck in the trinity/hellfire/immortal soul pagan rut, JWs have a progressive Bible study mentality which I believe has Gods backing.
---David8318 on 7/2/11

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Cliff, you take yourself too seriously. You need to take a chill pill. You've never made mistakes in your understanding of God's word? You're infallible are you?

I still hold to the point that fundamentally Jehovah's Witnesses are interested in understanding the truth. Yes, they got their understanding of the order of the resurrection wrong in 1925- so what! That doesn't negate the fact the earthly resurrection will take place. Russell didn't originally suggest 1874- it was an associate, N Barbour. Russell printed the 1st Watchtower in 1879 pointing to 1914.

Again while JW's were studying the Bible & looking for Christ's return during 1914, Christendom was looking for war & blood. I know on which side I would have been!
---David8318 on 7/2/11

David,Humorous? you're right, big yellow 16 cylinder Cadillac at Beth Sarim to chauffeur the Saints around when they came back,humorous now but they were serious then!
Making mistakes in Prophecy is one thing,correcting doctrine is a whole different thing! Many denominations do not subscribe to these false doctrines either!
Typo error here,they changed the date of Christ's invisible return from "1874"not 1884, to 1914!
It was inculcated (pounded down) into all the minds of Witnesses that the generation 1914-1918 would "BY NO MEANS PASS AWAY"
Another humorous error?
---1st_cliff on 7/2/11

1stCilff- when Israel made mistakes- eg.Moses & King David, did God cease guiding them? Or did they learn from their mistakes, continue serving God & receive His guidance?

The issues you raise: 1925- Beth sarim, the 'Stone Witness' etc... we look back at them with some humour. Leaving those beliefs and consigning them to the past- God's guidance? I think yes.

1884 changed to 1914? JW's have always held to 1914 ever since the first Watchtower was printed in July 1879. Have you got a reference? (WTBTS was incorporated in 1884- are you confusing the issue?)

You say, 'Jehovah is not the personal possession of the WBTS.' True, anyone can say 'Jehovah', but I do believe the WTBTS is the personal possession of Jehovah!
---David8318 on 7/2/11

1stCliff, yes I do believe Jehovah is directing his modern day Witnesses to scriptural truth today.

The trinity exposed as false. Jehovah is Almighty God and His Son Jesus Christ is subject to Him. God's guidance? Absolutely!

Doctrines of Hellfire and immortal soul exposed as false religious teachings. God's guidance? I believe so.

The reality of the Messianic Kingdom- not within people, but a real heavenly Kingdom Government which will rule over earth bringing paradise. God's guidance? Of course!

One thing for sure, when Christendoms leaders had their heads stuck in both WWI & II in 1914-45 promoting death and destruction, JW's had theirs stuck in the Bible!
---David8318 on 7/2/11

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David 8318, Nothing personal,I subscribe to some of JW doctrine as true, as Baptists and Pentecostals embrace the trinity (central doctrine of the Catholic Church) There's some truth to Christendom's beliefs!
What is proven is that Jehovah is not the personal possession of the WBTS!
The Pyramid of Giza was once heralded as "The great Stone Witness" by JWs ,since ,of course abandoned,No the WBTS is not Divinely guided,any more than the Catholic Church!
---1st_cliff on 7/1/11

David8318,JWs claim to be the only ones guided by Jehovah, God does not make mistakes!
Was changing the dates of Christ's return from 1884 to 1914 God's guidance?
Building "Beth Sarim", in SanDiego for the return of the Saints in 1925, God's guidance?
Poo pooing 1975 as only "significant" is a far cry from "Watch out for 1975" the catch phrase for many years prior.Armageddon would pass and the "Day of rest" would begin (the 7th thousandth year)by then. God's direction??
"Millions now living will never die" WBTS theme 1920..91years ago (they were not implying those born that year) at the "age of understanding" how many are still living? God's guidence?
---1st_cliff on 7/1/11

Regarding 1914 1stCliff, Jehovah's Witnesses still regard 1914 as a highly significant prophetic year.

Some 30 years prior to 1914, after studying prophecies in Daniel 4 and Rev.12, JW's knew something significant would happen in 1914. JW's didn't know quite what, some believed they would be 'caught away to heaven'. Whatever the case, JW's knew from the Bible that 1914 was the end of the 'times of the Gentiles' and that something significant was going to occur- Lu.21:24 (Kj).

In hind sight, JW's today firmly believe 1914 did indeed mark the end of the 'Gentile times', is synonymous with events described in Rev.12 where Satan is cast out of heaven to the earth, and the world entered what the Bible terms 'the Last Days'- Mt.24:3.
---David8318 on 6/30/11

No one spoke about hell more than Jesus Christ. Perdition and reprobates are real, not "warped'/twisted theologies". Dictionary defines perdition "a state of final spiritual ruin, loss of the soul, damnation", reprobate as "a person rejected by God and beyond hope of salvation."

You see and read this from Genesis to Revelation and Paul himself clearly teaches this in Romans 9, where he declares that those who are vessels of honor is because God loved them and those in the vessel of dishonor, God hated them. And all this was decided before the foundations of the world.

Don't twist and turn Paul's words to your benefit of unbelief that God has created vessels of honor and dishonor.
---christan on 6/30/11

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Paul spoke against "sectas perditionis"....("doctrinal hell"??) and he understood what the outcome of all of these 'warped'/twisted theologies would be.

The word "perdition" is now 'Christian LINGO'/jargon but has no single DEFINITION in any language, only MEANINGS.

Humanity is that "SON" of confused/warped theology because we want to "follow" and glorify man and self.

Be a MEMBER OF the one who hung on the cross ("I AM the WAY....", John 14:6).
---more_excellent_way on 6/30/11

What are some of Paul's prophecies?
---michael_e on 6/30/11

1stCliff, Jehovah's Witnesses do not claim to be prophets, and like Jesus' apostles, they have at times had wrong expectations- Lu.19:11, Ac.1:6.

Jehovah's Witnesses are however keen Bible Students and expect the end of this old satanic system of things. JW's have kept Jesus' words close in mind when he instructed his disciples to 'keep on the watch'- Mt.24:42.

Jehovah's Witnesses never said Armageddon would happen in 1975. However, what was significant about 1975 was that it marked according to Bible chronology, the 6000th anniversary of Adam's creation. It was thought by some that it would be a good time for Christ to begin his rule over earth. JW's eagerness to see the end of this system is as palpable today as it was in 1975.
---David8318 on 6/30/11

Another thing about Paul's prophecies. You can find most if not all in the OT or spoken by Jesus himself.
---willa5568 on 6/30/11

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Well, Cliff, the "Rapture" simply means the resurrection of the Christian church. Paul prophesied this, but this clearly is still to come. But nowhere does Paul clearly say the Rapture will come before the great tribulation. He says, "at the last trumpet", in 1 Corinthians 15:52, and the last trumpet that Jesus Himself mentions is "immediately after the tribulation of those days" (Matthew 24:29). Jesus Himself says "after", and no scripture clearly and directly says "before".
---Bill_willa6989 on 6/29/11

As far as 2 Tim.3 1-7 is concerned then we've been in the "last days" for 2,000 years! This can describe any generation. This applies to which continent?? Chinese, for example, respect their parents!
JWs for example prophesied 1925-return of the Saints, 1914-1918 the generation that would by no means pass away, 1975- Armageddon!
Harold Camping and many others all claiming-divine guidance!
Not speaking on their own volition???
Apostacy began 325 CE!
---1st_cliff on 6/29/11

David, that's cool. I'm in basic agreement.
---John.usa on 6/29/11

An important prophecy found in Paul's letters that I believe is yet to be fulfilled is the one at 1 Thessalonians 5:1,

'Whenever it is that they are saying: 'Peace and security!' then sudden destruction is to be instantly upon them just as the pang of distress upon a pregnant woman.'

I believe this event- the cry of 'Peace and Security'- is still future and will be fulfilled in some unique special way, just prior to the outbreak of Armageddon. 'Sudden destruction' will follow the cry of 'Peace and Security', which must mean it will serve as a prophetic 'sign-post' to alert Chrstians that Armageddon is imminent.
---David8318 on 6/29/11

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John.usa- I understand what you mean about observing human nature etc...

But what we need to remember when it comes to the Bible and particularly Bible prophecy is to meditate on what Peter stated at 2 Peter 1:21,

'For prophecy was at no time brought by man's will, but men spoke from God as they were borne along by holy spirit.'

Thus Paul, or any other Bible writer or prophet wasn't speaking or prophesying on their own volition. They were speaking of events God knew would happen. God is speaking of future events to us through these Bible writers. That's what Bible prophecies are there for, are they not?
---David8318 on 6/29/11

I was only saying that if one observes a certain set of behaviors during one's lifetime, one can be pretty certain that those behaviors will be displayed by others in the future.
---John.usa on 6/29/11

John: Paul wasn't prophecying about practices already in existence or yet to come in his lifetime. His prophecy was about the end times. He was upfront & made it clear he was speaking (fortelling ~ making a prophecy) specifically of what evil people would be doing in the times to come, i.e., "in the last days". (2 Tim. 3:1)

Very good David!

Amen aka!
---Leon on 6/29/11

Amen Leon

2Ti 3:12-13 too
---aka on 6/29/11

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The prophecy recorded by Paul at 2 Tim.3:1-5 is significant because Paul identifies it to be not for the Roman era, but for the 'Last Days'. Paul wrote about future events, not what was happening around him in the Roman system.

The prophecy at 2 Thessalonians 2:3 regarding the 'apostasy' has also gone under major fulfillment in the centuries after Paul.
---David8318 on 6/29/11

"And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power." Acts 1:7

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Matthew 10:28
---christan on 6/29/11

The "rapture" for one!
---1st_cliff on 6/29/11

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