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No Resurrection Of Jesus

There is a certain famous minister who at the age of 13 in his Sunday School class publicly denied the physical Resurrection of Jesus Christ. Should he have been ordained? Can such a person be called a Christian?

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 ---Cluny on 6/28/11
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Mark, exactly. Amen to your post. I will keep that post in mind as I respond to any inquiries or rebukes. Thank you.
---Josef on 7/12/11

Josef, thank you so much for your words, they encourage me a whole lot. We have to separate a lot of things from our own feelings when we answer. Many here are using the Truth presented by others and are learning. Some who have not made their salvation sure, will. Not by my own words but by the power of God's Truth. The hardest thing for many to do who are already saved is to ignore what they were taught that was wrong. They don't want to be wrong. But if God wants to open their hearts He will. No one can stop that because the person doesn't feel the Spirit working in them, what they know is that they have changed their minds, they don't know how it happen only that it did happen. Thank you and everyone who is for the Truth. Peace I leave you.
---Mark_V. on 7/10/11

Mark I love your zeal, and your willingness to stand up for what you believe, regardless of the opposition. God bless you. "A man who will stand for nothing, will fall for anything." No one will ever be able to associate that quote with you:o) Keep sharing and caring MarkV.
---Josef on 7/8/11


Your right, it is Gods work but we are taught in scripture that we can discern the difference.

I appreciate your willingness to defend others though, it speaks a lot about your character.

And I don't like denominational bashing either, that my friend speaks a lot about their character.

God Bless You Mark,
---paul on 7/8/11

What a person does at 13 does set their life course or beliefs latter in life. What did the person believe and practice at death.

Good points mark
---Samuel on 7/8/11

Paul, if it was you we were discussing, I would defend you. I've been here long enough to know that many here have a bias agenda. Through time here, I find It's not about the Truth at all, but about what they were taught at their church and argue with a another purpose. I disagreed with Cluny for bringing the subject up just as I disagree with one here who post just about every post against the Catholics, I will not name him. It's good to discuss doctrines, but no one has the right to say that someone is save or not saved since they don't know the heart of that person. Though I disagee with Cluny's doctrines, I have no right to say he is not saved. God take cares of those matters. I can argue against their doctrines but never their salvation.
---Mark_V. on 7/8/11


Don't twist it up, when did I condemn MLK Jr?

If you read my post to Cluny I thanked him for bringing up the issue for I had never studied it.

Upon it being an issue I took time to study it and found his own sermons represented his views not a witness but from his own pen.

If you will look you will find them for your self.

Why do you insist on always finding yourself on the wrong side of an issue without giving the opposing view any consideration.
---paul on 7/7/11


What I quoted in an earlier post was from one who is in agreement with MLK. Really all I meant is if it is something you want to look into info is out their.

Gods peace
---willa5568 on 7/7/11

Willa, there is many books out there by many. Some for and some against. If you go to a website concerning someone, you will find material from those who oppose and those who support the person. There can be no argument that I see with this subject. No one knows the heart. I can never say you are not saved because you don't believe that Jesus is God. I hear you say it, you make a lot of arguments, yet I cannot pronouce you not save because of that. If you killed someone, are raped someone then I have a right to make a comment against you. I don't know what you do in the privacy of your home. How can I judge you? I can only judge the doctrines you give, by the Truth of Scripture.
---Mark_V. on 7/7/11

Paul, I'm not condemning Hitler to hell, only God can do that. I assume that he will go to hell only because of what is recorded in history of his actions, from eye-witnesses who were there. What eye-witnesses do you have that could know what MLK had in his heart? or what he was thinking, or what he really believe in? None. For only God knows the heart. If MLK killed someone, we would know by his actions. What actions did he show for you to condemn him? You condemn him only by what someone says he believed in or didn't at the age of 13. And they could not possibly know what he was feeling and believing when he died. Paul, go ahead and condemn the man if you want. It is your choice. Feel free to do that. peace I leave you.
---Mark_V. on 7/7/11


If you know nothing of MLK please study him and we can have an intelligent debate, until then your going on assumption.

And how can you assume Hitler is not in Heaven due to his unrighteous deeds but not MLK Jr?

---paul on 7/6/11


Their are numerous biographical books and papers with quotes from MLK saying this and even denying the need of Jesus' sacrifice for atonement of sins. He was a "progressive christian" as it is titled, Very, very liberal.

The info is out there, check it out if it interests you because I wasn't aware of his understanding.
---willa5568 on 7/6/11

Paul, you are not making sense. If I saw you with a prostitute of course I would assume you are not saved. But did you actually see M.L.K with one? Did you hear him deny the resurrection of Christ? What do you really know about him from witnesses? Lets take Hitler, we know through eye-witnesses he slaughtered millions. Records of history tell us that. So we can assume he is not going to heaven. If you have some information of whether MLK believed in the resurrection or not before he died bring it on. You see Paul, we can assume a lot of things, but that doesn't make them true. I know nothing of the life of M.L.K, only that he was a preacher and was killed.
---Mark_V. on 7/6/11

Paul, You are right. Part of the Christian Faith is based on YAHUSHUA both physically dying and then physically rising from the Dead. One must believe that YAHUSHUA physically arose from the Tomb. GOD desires Truth in ALL our inward parts. We are to know the Truth and live from it accordingly. Preaching the opposite of what the Scriptures clearly teach is called HERESY. The 13 year old's heresy is like the one the Apostle warned against believing, concerning "those who deny that CHRIST has come in the Flesh, they are anti-christ".
---Gordon on 7/6/11

To continue what Paul quoted from Matthew 12, Jesus did declare in the very same chapter and context:

36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

And to question the Resurrection of Christ and His very atonement and mock it saying "there is no valid ground for repentance", brings this man's claim that he's a Christian into question. And many who claim to be a Christian, actually swear by Mr King's teachings.
---christan on 7/4/11


If you saw me on the streets claiming to be a Christian leader and I had a prostitute on one arm while robbing a little old lady with the other all the while with a stolen suit on would you still maintain their is no way to know a mans heart?

Out of the heart proceed the issues of life.

You cant be a bad tree and claim good fruit.

Am I not articulating it properly?

I don't know MLK Jr's destination concerning salvation, but if he died holding a belief that Christ did not raise from the dead then he is in hell today.

---paul on 7/4/11

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Who is the subject of this discussion ... Martin Luther or Martin Luther King?
---alan8566_of_uk on 7/4/11

Paul 2, Let me explain why I answered to this post. First, I don't know the life of Martin Luther only what I have heard through talk. I don't know the life of Kennedy or Bush. Only what we hear through talk and news. We don't know if any of these man, in the quite of their homes or in a place of privacy they had a changed heart by the Spirit. Or whether they committed their lives to Christ. None of that can we positively know. Oh, we can judge by what we heard, but we can never be truthfully sure. That was all. We can question someone online who writes doctrines not in Scripture and if they want to respond they will. But Martin Luther cannot respond.
---Mark_V. on 7/4/11


I understand your position and find some scriptural truth to it.

Here's where it is deficient.

You can tell a tree by the fruit it bares regardless if the tree is present or not.

Mt 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good, or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

A man doesn't have to be present to see the carnage of his deeds.

Whether he repented in life I don't know, I'm simply commenting on what we know as fact.

Did you read my original comment on this topic?

---paul on 7/4/11

"If Christ by his life and death paid the full penalty of sin, there is no valid ground for repentance or moral obedience as a condition of forgiveness. The debt is paid, the penalty exacted, and there is, consequently, nothing to forgive."-Martin Luther King Jr.

As I researched this issue I was saddened by his understanding of the Bible and Christ in general.

"Is Christianity the crowning achievement in the development of religious thought or will there be another religion more advanced?"-Martin Luther King Jr.
---willa5568 on 7/4/11

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Paul, I am no god by any measure. You said by whose authority are you wrong? I say by common sense. You don't know the heart of anyone and neither do I. Here you are hearing a story about someone who cannot defend himself. That is common sense.
The passages you gave are instructions for church members. In this case how is Martin Luther going to respond to this accusations? Are you going to take two members to his grave and ask him to repend? And if he doesn't answer, which he won't, are you going to kick him out of grave? Your example of church discipline does not apply to someone who cannot answer. We can make an assumption, by the evidence of his life, but even that is not absolute Truth.
---Mark_V. on 7/3/11

first he was 13! did his stance change? Was he a christian at that time, No. Can he be saved? Of coarse if there is repentance and belief in the literal resurrection which, without it our faith is of no value and as Paul said we are still in our trespasses and sin. Wither he should have been ordained depends if he had repented and accept this most essential of all Christian doctrine. If not then no, if yes then yes.
---willa5568 on 7/2/11

Mark V

By whose authority am I wrong? I know you think you are a digigod
but I go by Gods authoritative Word.

You feel if someone disagrees with you they are wrong.

15 "Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother.
16 "But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that 'by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.'
17 "And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

Was this by mans perception of this individual or not which allowed excommunication?
---paul on 7/2/11

Paul, I don't think you get it. Here is why, do we need to know if Martin Luther king was saved or not? For what reason? And can we know without the knowledge of God?
Of course we need to know what is right and what is wrong. Everyone does. But no matter who ask such question we need to remember there is no one without sin. So no one has a right to claim they know someone's heart whether they are saved or not. If the post was concerning you, whether I know you or not, I would defend you too. Why? Because no one knows what is really in your heart but God.
---Mark_V. on 7/2/11

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My God, where does the heresy end?! Hasn't Satan planted enough of his human tares in the Church? NO, this person cannot (really, with validation) be called a true Christian! No, this satanic plant of flesh-and-blood should NOT have been ordai...what a minute...we're in the great Apostasy of the Church. So, it's NORMAL for the whorish churches to have such phonies.
---Gordon on 7/1/11


Someone who is walking contrary to the Christian faith and doing things which God draws a hard line on they can not be saved.

That may not be POLITICALLY CORRECT but it is a fact and the Body of Christ needs to be aware of.

God Bless, Paul
---paul on 7/1/11

Cluny, why would you put that post concerning Martin L. King Jr? I have defended you and so many others as Christians for the simple reason that no one knows the heart of an individual, not even the sinless one on line. Only God knows the heart. A person could sound like a great person, yet does not mean he is saved. A person could have done a lot of bad things in life, that does not mean he is not save now. When you bring doubt of someone's faith, you are putting individual believers at odds with one another. What I believe was your intend was to show that outside of the Eastern Orthodox everyone is at odds with each other but not your denomination, or else why would you ask since you already know the answers to your own question.
---Mark_V. on 7/1/11

King did have active Communists in his entourage.

Who was using whom? Only God knows.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/1/11

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Thanks for bringing this up, after a little research I found out that King Jr may have been a great motivator and civil rights leader but not a Christian leader at all.

He simply used Christian Churches as a platform to conduct business a lot like some today.

---paul on 6/30/11


I meant you no disrespect with my comment, I simply meant it was good to hear your thoughts as opposed to your replies to someonelses thoughts

Their are only 5 or so posters which I find to be insightful and you are one of those I look forward to reading.

I find most posters to be redundant and disingenuous in that they don't post original thoughts but merely regurgitate their denominational dogma.

I feel you and a few others actually investigate matters, draw conclusions and post findings and not handbook hype.

Keep on keeping on mahacluny.

God Bless, Paul
---paul on 6/30/11

My information about MLK's denial of the Resurrection came from a Wikipedia article.

However, in his adult life he did say, according to several sources, that Jesus was a son--not THE Son--of God in the same sense that we all are. (The Socinian heresy.)

His philanderings were well known even in the '60's.

And there's a whole other side to his visit to Birmingham.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/30/11

Millions of unsaved sinners are frequently so-called ordained by sinners and institutions, but none have been ordained by God. No, he is not Christianed, but still an unsaved carnal sinner, and when the blind lead the blind then both will fall into the ditch.
---Eloy on 6/30/11

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My point is, unless he was "ordained" at the age of 13, you did not supply nearly enough information for one to make an informed comment (as I am sure you are aware.) Perhaps that was your intention?

Indeed, if our past beliefs/actions, (Paul's included,) were to be held against us today, none of us would qualify for ministry.
---Bruce5656 on 6/30/11

Paul denied the resurrection of Christ when he was in early 30's and then killed people who did profess in the resurrection of Christ. Should Paul be considered an apostle later in life? Also dismissing 75% of the NT. People can change Cluny and be corrected like Paul did.
---Scott on 6/30/11

Cluny, sounds like propaganda to me. Please supply the source and the exact quote. Thanks
If the source is the works of David Steward, those leave me with the impression that they are simply the rantings of an envious, vindictive, bitter person with nothing better to do with his time. He documents nothing that is not simply hearsay.
Martin was a very intelligent young man, and to intelligent a potential preacher, even at the age of thirteen, to publicly deny something that is clearly written, easily researched, and easily understood.
Martin "Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven."
---joseph on 6/30/11

now the question is (as it is alllready stated)is it not possible to believe one thinhg and then to convert to the truth? for the rest this is such a nonsubject...
---andy3996 on 6/30/11

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\\Good to see you initiate Cluny.\\

I've started several threads before.

No, Bruce, the man I'm thinking of is in no way the spiritual equal of the holy Apostle Paul.

I'm speaking of Martin Luther King, Jr.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 6/30/11

If he were ordained as a Christian (Follower of Jesus Christ) leader then what hope would he preach of.

Where would be the hope of everlasting life if Christ had not overcame the grave to reassure our ability to overcome as well.

And in my assessment he or she could not possibly be a aforementioned Christian while holding that belief system.

Good to see you initiate Cluny.

---paul on 6/29/11

What is the point of your question?

There was a man in the middle east who used to make it his business to seek out and murder christians. Should he have been denied the opportunity to minister later?
---Bruce5656 on 6/29/11

If he still believes the same as age 13 then no he doesn't need to be leading. If he has come to know Jesus & no confesses he has risen then yes he can lead. See people sometimes have thoughts at a young age that they donot understand, then GOd works with them. Only God does the true calling & this includes who is chosen to be ordained.
---candice on 6/29/11

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cluny, my point is that anybody can crown you and give you any titles, but it is Jesus who decides the reality.
---aka on 6/29/11

michael e: "No, but any one can be ordained by man, even an atheist"
So true. I have a step brother who is a self ordained minister, his own religion is a weird mix of most anything and everything
---Christina on 6/29/11

He should NOT have been ordained, and he is NOT a Christian. To qualify to be a Christian one MUST believe and confess that Jesus Christ died and rose (Rom. 10:9-10).
---Leslie on 6/29/11

//Should he have been ordained?//
No, but any one can be ordained by man, even an atheist//
//Can such a person be called a Christian?//
No, the only Christians referred to in scripture believed in the death, burial and resurrection, as Paul preached (ref 1Cor 15:1-4)
---michael_e on 6/29/11

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That depends...... St.Peter, after all, denied he knew Jesus.

Does he STILL deny the resurrection? If so, then no. If he has repented, surely that is not an issue any more
---James on 6/29/11

//Should he have been ordained? //

Depends on who ordained him. do they have true authority?

//Can such a person be called a Christian?//

yes. it depends on who is making the determination. one who believes that Michael is Christ can be called a christian.

i do not see how he can be called a disciple or friend of Jesus Christ the Risen Lord.
---aka on 6/28/11

the question is, does he still deny the resurrection? If he still denies, then no true christian church should have ordained him, and no, he is not a christian.
---christina on 6/28/11

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