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Hebrew Greek Debates

I have wondered about all the teaching, and debates, relying heavily on knowledge of original Hebrew/Greek, so and so's teachings etc. I believe the Word stands on it's own,and trust the Spirit's revelation. Do such things add or detract?

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 ---Christina on 6/30/11
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Mark, I am one of the elect, but only because my life is hidden in Christ, the elect. My life is dirty, and I am glad it is hidden.

My priority here isnt making sure everyone knows Im elect, its making sure everyone knows Jesus Christ died for them as scripture declares.

I know you dont like a god that lays down his life for EVERYone and then expect us to turn back to him in love, seeking forgiveness and restoration. Youve said before that our "god" is a weak and powerless. No - He's just not a tyrant. He knows what real love is. Maybe you don't. Maybe thats why you are blind to Him. The way you speak of Him its obvious that you don't want a relationship with Him. Could it be that He is simply giving you your wish?
---CraigA on 7/5/11


CraigA, the Word of God is not a game! Maybe it is to you. It's about life and death!

You say: "If election were true, there would be no reason at all for warnings about falling away from the faith in Gods word." Here, you have not accuse me but God, meaning you have called Him a liar for declaring that He has elected a people for Himself.

"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth" Romans 9:11

I do not have to show you other Scripture to prove election is real, you are already in total disbelief of Paul's teaching that's straight from God.
---christan on 7/5/11


How do Calvinists explain away luke 14:15-24?

It clearly states those bidded refused, and the invitation was given to anyone and everyone they could find to fill the house, and then sent out again because there was more room....

Those bidden REFUSED.

Also note, there are no ingraved personal invitations with anyone's name pre-printed on them and then they were asked to go and find ONLY those on the list...NO.

This clearly refutes the calvin THEORY of salvation, and is directly from GOD's MOUTH!

Verse 15 Begins, Blessed is he that shall eat bread in the Kingdom of God...
Then ends in verse 24...
That none of those men who were bidden, and refused, shall taste OF MY SUPPER.



---kathr4453 on 7/5/11


Kathr, Josef, I see there's a Strong's Concordance available online, so I will be trying that. I had used biblegateway on occasion online, but found that frequently I could not find what I was looking for, and it was easier to use my own bible. I appreciate the info and help.
---christina on 7/5/11


Craig, you have a misunderstanding of warnings. "But Christ as a Son over Hs own house, whose house we are, "if" we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end" Heb. 3:6.
This is not speaking of how to be saved or remain saved (1 Cor. 15:2) It means rather that personal perseverance in faithfulness is proof of real faith. The one who returns to the rituals of the Levitical system to contribute to his own salvation proves he was never truly part of God's household ( 1 John 2:19) where as the one who abides in Christ gives evidence of his genuine membership in the household of Christ.
---Mark_V. on 7/5/11




Christan, Hebrews 3 makes it very clear that those who hear the voice of the Lord can harden their heart in unbelief. It can never be said there isnt scripture to refute your claims. I would be perfectly willing to number the scriptures I have the prove Calvinism a lie and compare them to any you might come up with. You game?

If election were true, there would be no reason at all for warnings about falling away from the faith in Gods word. Yet the Holy Ghost takes the time to warn us. You're living in a dream world. There is security in Christ but not in what you cling to. Its in the promise of God that if we place our faith in Jesus we will never be ashamed! He guarantees it.
---CraigA on 7/4/11


Craig, you said,
"If my God says He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, then "surely it is clear as day to any impartial mind that"
And I was assuming you were one of the elect yourself, but you sound like you didn't want to be one. Why don't you tell God you feel like He is a terrible God for drawing you to Him and bringing Jesus into your life. That He wasn't suppose to because you have free will, and He cannot impose His will on you without your permission. Go for it.
Almighty God does not glory or gets pleasure in the death of the wicked. They will be punished for their own sins in hell, and He will be there to execute those punishments, and they will get justice, for God is never unjust.
---Mark_V. on 7/4/11


//some men WANT TO BE SAVED!//. Good for them! They must be more righteous than the other sinners...or more intelligent...or more "spiritually" inclined or...just inherently better people than the others. I mean, what else could make them WANT to decide as they do, while others do not?

Couldn't this be seen as arrogance?
---Donna66 on 7/4/11


"The fact of the matter is that Christ shed his blood for every man woman and child, so ALL have been "chosen", but not all respond to the call." CraigA

If "ALL" had been chosen then "ALL" will be saved, because Jesus promise was, "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." John 6:37

Your doctrine is a hopeless doctrine that doesn't depend and trust in God's promise. So much for your faith in Christ. You trust yourself because according to you, the man has to choose after he has been chosen. The Scripture does not teach such a doctrine.
---christan on 7/4/11


It is a waste of time to argue with any Calvinist. They are full of pride and cold-hearted. They believe they have been chosen and have the audacity to imply that others have not. Do they think they are better or more privileged?

God does not arbitrarily condemn some and save others. All are born under condemnation and whosoever will believe and have faith in Christ is able to be saved.

Calvinism is fatalism which is nothing to do with God but everything to do with man's warped and twisted thinking. The false assumptions of a sinful and prideful mind pretending to know the mind of God. What arrogance!
---poopsey on 7/4/11




MarkV,

1. To show that God has elected a people for Himself as He declared, a nation called Israel was created by Him and only He revealed Himself to them in the OT.

2. However, as far as salvation is concern, only the elect by faith in Israel received salvation. For within the nation of Israel, there were believers and unbelievers.

3. Now we know that the physical nation of Israel was a shadow of the spiritual people of God (His church), which is a type of Israel as revealed in the NT.

4. But make no mistake that our Savior Jesus Christ was born of a Jew.

5. Now the elect are found in every tribe and nation around the world and when the last Gentile walks in, God will turn His mercy to Israel.
---christan on 7/4/11


Mark, there you go again with the stabs..."professing" Christians. You just dont know HOW to agree to disagree without judging someone as fake.

If my God says He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, then "surely it is clear as day to any impartial mind that" He means exactly what He says. I have no reason to think He is a liar and secretly sets aside millions of people to burn for his good pleasure.

That is the difference between believing the doctrines of devils and murderers rather than taking God at his own word.

If God stood before you and said "I dont do this" and John Calvin said "Oooh yes he does!", who would you believe? Apparently Calvin
---CraigA on 7/4/11


Zechariah 12-14, And the looked upon Him who they pierced, and morned. This is the 2nd coming of Christ, after He rose from the dead. The account of Joseph, being sold as a slave, and then AFTER forgiving his brethren who left him for dead, believing he was dead. A family affair, Joseph forgave them. We also see when they first see Joseph the morn for what thy had done. YET, Joseph knew from his dream as a child, this was God's will and plan from the beginning.

Romans 9-11 Parallel the account of Joseph. Revelation 12 parallel the second stage of Israel under an evil pharoah who forgot Joseph's God....Gentile arrogance and satan who wants to destroy them. It's already WRITTEN and in God's reality already done. Deal with it!
---kathr4453 on 7/4/11


Part 2: Here then, God expressly affirms that there are some who have been "appointed" ( It's the same Greek word as in 1 Thess. 5:9) "unto disobedience." Our business is not to reason about it, but to bow to Holy Scripture. Our first duty is not to understand, but to believe what God has said. Yet every effort is made to escape the plain teachings of the word of God by those who oppose God as the determinator of our lives.

"And all that dwell on the earth shall worship him ( the antichrist) everyone whose name hath not been written from the foundation of the world in the Book of life of the Lamb that hath been slain" ( Rev. 13:8).
---Mark_V. on 7/4/11


The rejection of Christ by the Jews was prophecied that the builders of Judaism would reject the messiah. "For both houses of Israel he will be a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall. And for the people of Jerusalem he will be a trap and a snare."Isaiah 8:14 "He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not." Isaiah 53:3

And why did they reject him? Pride. But if the proud humble themselves, then it will not be their destiny as with many saved Jews today who did not stumble.

No Gentile was prophesied to stumble at Christ. That was fortold of Israel.
---kathr4453 on 7/4/11


When God's word says,
"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" ( 1 Thess. 5:9). Surely it is clear as day to any impartial mind that this statement is quite pointless if God has not "appointed" any to wrath. To say that God "hath not appoined us to wrath" implies that there are some whom He has "appointed" to wrath, and not for the minds like so many professing Christians are so blind by prejudice, they could not fail to clearly see this.
"A stone of stumbling, and a Rock or offense even to them who stumble at the Word, being disobedient, "where unto they were appointed" ( 1 Peter 2:8).
---Mark_V. on 7/4/11


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Noone said they werent chosen Christan. The fact of the matter is that Christ shed his blood for every man woman and child, so ALL have been "chosen", but not all respond to the call.

Have you not read in scripture that even those who teach heresies have already been bought by the blood of Christ but by their false teachings they deny the very Lord who bought them and bring upon themselves swift damnation? (2 Peter 2:1)

Read Heb 10:29 as well. Those who reject Jesus insult the Spirit of grace and the blood that sanctified them.

For ones name to be "blotted out of the book of life" it must be written there to begin with. (Rev 3:5)

Theres only one sin that will NOT be forgiven.
---CraigA on 7/4/11


Does anyone see how christan takes two entirely different verses and tries to marry them together making it look like something it's not. YA REALLY have to watch these guys.

God owns the cattle on a thousand hills and the Gentiles rejoyced and glorified God, while Abraham went down to Egypt with David at his side as they were rebuked by Balaam's ass...


Donna66, it's because MAN KNOWS he is a sinner and some men WANT TO BE SAVED! Yes even in man's total depraved state, his conscience cries out for forgivness, and peace.

ACTS....What must WE do to be saved...ACTS...Believe on teh Lord Jesus Christ.

SO SO SIMPLE! No one needs a PHD in Calvinism to understand something SO SO SIMPLE!
---kathr4453 on 7/4/11


God always delivers His promises when man delievers on His. I cannot speak for Christan, because I don't know his studies on Israel, but I say that only the elect from the Old Testament and the elect from the New, will be entering the Kingdom of God.
Concerning your question about Israel, "What then? That which Israel seeketh for, that he obtained not, but the election obtained it, and the rest were hardened" ( Rom. 11:7 ) It's pretty clear?

"For God hath not appointed us (the elect, believers) to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" ( 1 Thess. 5:9) The statement is quite pointless if God has not "appointed" any to wrath.
---Mark_V. on 7/4/11


Why does any sinful man (and all have sinned) seek God?
---Donna66 on 7/3/11

THEY DON'T!

It is G-d who seeks, chooses and then calls.
---John on 7/4/11


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My question is:
Why does any sinful man (and all have sinned) seek God?

I know how Markv and Christan would answer. I'd like some others to address this question.
---Donna66 on 7/3/11


CraigA, read:

"For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call." Acts 2:39, "And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." Acts 13:48

So, did the Gentiles went to Christ by their own "freewill" or were they "ordained" (chosen) by God first and then believed?

btw, I do not thrive or rejoice upon the damned but rather speak the truth that God has purposed vessels of dishonor. Basically you reject this truth, so that's your problem.
---christan on 7/4/11


exactly christina. Without the foundation Paul is laying, that ALL have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God then CH 4, establishing Abraham's FAITH long before the Law ever came into effect, promising that IN HIM will all families of the earth be blessed is so beautiful. Romans 5 again about Jesus Christ, Romand 6-8 again about our life IN CHRIST after we receive Him.

Romans 9-11, would seem to UNDO all Paul is saying before when taken out of context. Paul is answering a question...How can we rely on the Promises of God IF God promised Israel things and Never delivered on those promises. Paul explains, God's word and promises can never change, and not even MAN no matter what can thrart His Promises.
---kathr4453 on 7/3/11


//I believe the Word stands on it's own,and trust the Spirit's revelation.//

Well said, God had the good sense and grace to give us His book in a language that we can understand.
---michael_e on 7/3/11


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Now see there is your problem, Christan. You automatically assume that everyone who doesnt believe God chose some to damnation believes men must work for their salvation. Faith is not a work as declared by scripture.

Theres a difference between a stumbling follower of Christ and one who mocks God by sinning his life away because he is "saved" now. God says that man will reap what he has sown.

Once a man with a truly repentant heart enters a relationship with Jesus Christ we have the promise of our Savior that He will NEVER leave us nor forsake us. That is where we should get our eternal security from. Not from a doctrine that rests upon the damnation of others.
---CraigA on 7/3/11


Christan, So only elect Israel are given to Christ? Really?

He will turn ungodliness from JACOB. BUT who is Jacob? Jacob is Israel after the flesh. WE HOWEVER are Abraham's seed, SPIRITUAL seed and Gentiles are not Jacob, and never will be, BUT a Gentile can be Abraham's spiritual seed..."like Isaac was so are we".

Abraham was the Grandfather of Israel, and Isaac the father of Israel, but neither was Israel. Jacob was renamed ISRAEL
BUT, why is it christan and markv claim in their total depravity GOD CHOSE them and saved them, but in Israel's total depravity refuse to believe GOD WILL AGAIN CHOOSE THEM as stated in Isaiah 14:1, based on no effort on their part, just as you put no effort on your part?
---kathr4453 on 7/3/11


There is no question that when a person reads Psalm 14: and don't come out with the depravity of men, they have to be spiritually blind. Though the passages here are talking about Israel, Paul gives the same message which indicates that all man are depraved without Christ. "The fool" in the Bible, this designation carries moral rather than intellectual meaning (Isa. 32:6). The "all" and "nones" of these lines make the indictments univerally applicable. Man without God are not righteous, don't seek God, don't love God, they are corrupted and none who does good. Anything without faith is sin. They eat up people as they eat bread. And do not call on the name of the Lord. They need the Lord to make them willing.
---Mark_V. on 7/3/11


Kathr, some excellent posts. Thank you! Rightly dividing the word of truth... verse snatchers, I have done so myself, but desire to rightly divide.
This is really good: "
Was Noah a "just" man? YES. Does Heb 11 give a long list of "JUST MEN"...YES, but are they sinless? NO. SO there are just men having FAITH, but are not sinless.

Paul is laying the foundation for CHRIST, not Total depravity." the distinction between just and sinless is critical.
---Christina on 7/3/11


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Our language today in the bibles isn't lined up with the original greek or hebrew scriptures (mss). So actually it detracts from the original manuscripts.
---Candice on 7/3/11


Another perfect example is christans use of "MY PEOPLE/HIS PEOPLE". Without studying to show oneself approved of GOD rightly dividing the word of truth, you come up with wing nuts who we call verse snatchers. THey have not studied anything and cannot rightly divide teh word of truth.

I can find countless scripture that MY PEOPLE is referring to ISRAEL...Here's one...

LET MY PEOPLE GO

Yes, God does have a plan for Israel and WILL save HIS PEOPLE from their sin, as promised. And those who KNOW their Bibles will not be hoodwinked by these false teachers.
---kathr4453 on 7/3/11


Cluny 7/1/11

Some people have "scriptural insights" denying baptismal regeneration, others have insights that affirm it.

And so it goes.




Again If it lines up with scriptures not some mans ideology of them.

Paul
---paul on 7/3/11


//--I believe according to the Scripture that God has already chosen in His love before the foundations of the world who He is going to save.-- Christan //

Then, of necessity, He must also have chosen the vast majority for the sole purpose of torture in the lake of fire! How cruel! What an unrighteous judge - to judge someone's fitness for life before they did anything wrong, or even had a chance to repent!
---jerry6593 on 7/3/11


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Well here is the answer to Romans 3:10-11. First we see in verse 10, IT IS WRITTEN. anytime you/me see these words, it's important to see where that quote was and put it in perspective.

That comes from Psalms 14 AND Eccleastics 7:20

PLease read those scriptures.

Ecc7:20 For there is not a JUST MAN upon the earth that doeth good and sinneth not.

Might sound like a trick question, ans TRUE. There are no SINLESS PEOPLE on the earth...but

Was Noah a "just" man? YES. Does Heb 11 give a long list of "JUST MEN"...YES, but are they sinless? NO. SO there are just men having FAITH, but are not sinless.

Paul is laying the foundation for CHRIST, not Total depravity.
---kathr4453 on 7/3/11


Christina, the wisdom that saves, which man's wisdom can't know, is revealed to us by God. Paul says in 1 Cor. 2:10-15 concerning spiritual things, like hearing, understanding the wisdom or spiritual things of God, "But God has revealed them to us (believers) through His Spirit" Without the Spirit, a lost person is unable to know the things of God. He says, "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God" but not given to others (v.14) "But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, nor can he know them" they need the Spirit.
---Mark_V. on 7/3/11


Now to Psalms 14, here Paul again quotes from when writing Romans 3:10-11

Read the whole of Psalms 14. Partial reading only leads to a partial understanding, then leading to a tanted interpretation, which leads to a lie. HOW DOES PSALMS 14 END? Ans:CHRIST.

Romans 1-3, Paul is laying the foundation that all men are guilty ..from Genesis, law of moral conscience, through and including the lAW OF MOSES. Although we already KNEW that didn't we, when Adam fell, there was not ONE sinless person born after that. BUT remember Paul isn't writing to JEWS but Gentiles, who needed these things taught to them, also showing even Jews are not sinless either, and that ALL both Jew and Gentile NEED JESUS CHRIST!
---kathr4453 on 7/3/11


Not only is it important to have a STRONGS concordance, it's important to READ all scripture pertaining to a verse. It's as deceiptful to give a wrong definition as a wrong application.

Paul wrote Romans to GENTILES. Paul was NOT writing a letter to GENTILES sticking out his tongue to say, look, too bad, here it is, God already chose who He wants. Romans 4-16 would make asolutely NO SENSE if all anyone got was a distorted interpretation from a single verse Romans 3:11. Why bother writing the remainder to heathans. It was because of that letter Paul lost his head. He brought conviction to Ceasar etc. He revealed SIN, not through the Law of Moses but the moral conscience of men.
---kathr4453 on 7/3/11


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Christina, Scripture must confirm Scripture and not contradict itself but rather the heart of the man who use them to pervert the Word of God.

The "ALL" in Colossians 1:19,20 must be use in context with "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." (John 6:37) This verse contradicts CraigA's understanding as Jesus declares that salvation is a guarantee to "all that the Father giveth me".

So who is the "ALL" that Colossians is referring to? Matthew 1:21, "...for he shall save His people from their sins." "His people" is God's elect, and only they are given to Christ.
---christan on 7/3/11


Christina, here's another teaching to contradict CraigA's understanding.

"And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of My Fathers hand." John 10:28,29

Salvation from God is a promise (guarantee). To people like CraigA, I'm sure he will tell you can loose his salvation which according to the verses above is out of the question.

Show me Scripture that Christ teaches that a man must by his own freewill go to Him? It is always declared as, "My Father, who has given them to Me". This is what it means, Scripture must confirm Scripture.
---christan on 7/3/11


Josef, thanks for that information. I didn't have the time earlier to respond to you and Kathr, but seeing as I value both of your posts, and both of you have recommended Strongs, I think I'll go with that. I use the concordance at the back of my bible, but I know it lacks much, still, I've found it valuable.The wait upon the Lord ex is good, I understood it as intended, though I'm not sure why. I was discipled by one who taught me to wait upon the Lord in my prayer time, perhaps that has something to do with it.
---Christina on 7/2/11


Craig, you've got that right. God will indeed reconcile ALL things to Himself. It's a pity most Christians don't believe that. God bless!
---John.usa on 7/2/11


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Christan, I agree salvation is not earned, but I'm not convinced that salvation is only available for a select few. I tend to agree with Craig's post, specifically Col 1:19-20
"For it pleased the Father that in him should all fullness dwell, And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile ALL things unto himself, by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven".
---christina on 7/2/11


Christina, Kathr4453 on 7/2/11 gave a great example of what I was talking about when I said "Personally I find a "knowledge of original Hebrew/Greek" invaluable." I was not referring to a knowledge that I posses personally, although by the Father's grace and Spirit, I have gained knowledge from the referenced source. I was referring to the knowledge Dr. Strong gained and shared through a lifetime of study, research, and most of all, a lifetime of being led, inspired, and dedicated to, and in, the arduous task of defining every Hebrew, Chaldean, and Greek word used in Scripture. I thank the Father for him, and all the other truly dedicated men and women that The Holy Spirit speaks through to give clarity to His word.
---Josef on 7/2/11


--I believe according to the Scripture that God has already chosen in His love before the foundations of the world who He is going to save.-- Christan

Col 1:19:20

For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell, And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile ALL things unto himself, by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven


Limited atonement? Really? I dont think so.
---CraigA on 7/2/11


Christan, great answers from you and Josef. The real seeking of God in faith only comes from those who are His children. Oh many seek Him to know about Him superficially as athiest and others, but their seeking is for sinful intentions, they don't seek Him to be Lord of their lives. For anything without faith is sin. Romans 2:11 tells us, "There is no one who understands, There is none who seeks after God." as (v.2:18) says, "They have no fear of God". And Romans 10:14 tells us, "How then can they call on Him in whom they have not believed?" They need faith, and saving faith only comes from God.
---Mark_V. on 7/2/11


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Christina, it'll be wrong of me to judge people, the Word will judge them. I truly believe that salvation is only by the grace of God through faith in Christ, I never earned it at all. That's the meaning of grace. I myself am a sinner, so who am I to judge another.

I believe according to the Scripture that God has already chosen in His love before the foundations of the world who He is going to save. And these have been given to Christ, who when crucified at Calvary, proclaimed, "It is finished." His death redeemed salvation for His people.

Only God know who they are. That's why we are commanded to testify and witness this Truth of hope in Christ to mankind in the same manner we believe.
---christan on 7/2/11


Acts 15:16-18
16After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down, and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

17That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
---kathr4453 on 7/2/11


Concerning Romans 3:10-11, Would you consider Paul before his conversion one who was seeking the Lord? I mean, all that is listed in Romans 3 doesn't add up to Paul stating how perfect he was in keeping the Law, blameless, loved God so much he actually believed he was doing the right thing by trying to squelch christianity, believing his fellow Jews were worshiping another God.

Are some taking that verse out of context?

Also when Jesus found His disciples, he said, oh here is one without guile, obviously doesn't fit Romans 3 perfectly.

We see a verse that says God owns the cattle on "a thousand hills". If I wanted to get DOGMATIC about it, I would say that was ALL He owns, because He stated as much.
---kathr4453 on 7/2/11


Christan, ""There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." Romans 3:11" This is true.
So, do you think that some, not belonging to Him, only APPEAR to seek after God, while in reality, having other motives? Do you think that they think they're earnestly seeking God? More importantly, do you think there is hope for them? Just asking
---christina on 7/2/11


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Christina, we must believe God's declaration written in the Holy Bible in whole (100% without any discount). And God declared:

"There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." Romans 3:11

This declaration is without exception, "none" meaning no one can or will seek after God unless you belong to Him. And when you do seek after Him, it's because He has found you and the consequence is you will follow Him. This is call grace through faith and not by your own freewill.

Remember, it's the Shepherd (Christ) that went to look for His sheep (the elect) and not vice-versa.
---christan on 7/2/11


Because the bible is redyndant, we do not need to know hebrew or greek to understand the doctrines. It may help with a verse or two, but not needed for doctrine
---francis on 7/2/11


Thank you Kathr and Josef.
---Christina on 7/2/11


"Do we NEED anything other then the Word?"
Other than the Holy Spirit's lead, No.
"Where/how have you learned?"
Christina, The only knowledge I have, has been taught, with the Holy Spirit as my only teacher or guide. I was led of what I believe to have been the Spirit of God to the KJV exclusively, for study purposes, with the Strong's concordance as a reference tool used to define the words that I question.
"How can I find a reputable source?"
Allow the Holy Spirit to guide you. Perhaps you need no source other than the scripture found in the version of the Bible that the Father has led you to. He teaches us in accordance to our willingness and His given ability to learn.
---Josef on 7/2/11


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Christina, I love my strongs concordance. English will use teh same word for many different words and definitions in it's original. It's amazing how what we thought something meant may not be so. And yes, the Lord will give you a discernment when someone uses a word incorrectly.


Example: A preacher state, those who wait upon the Lord .....

He preached that waiting was like a waiter, serving...however I understood waiting to mean to WAIT FOR HIM, and not run ahead. I knew this by experience, so his sermon troubled me.

So I looked up the verse in strongs, and the word wait in that verse and sure enough he was wrong.

Yet, those unsuspecting souls were led to believe in MORE WORKS to do, rather than BY FAITH WAIT.
---kathr4453 on 7/2/11


Christina, When I said denomination bias it was concerning their prior believes in what the denomination taught. If you look at the Jews you see the problem they had. It was the Jews and Gentiles, when the Gentiles invited the Jews over to dinner and had ham sandwiches, it was not a problem for the Gentiles, because biblically they were right, "Don't call unclean what God has cleansed" there is no dietary laws but the Jews would gag on the thing. They couldn't handle it. So when we find someone that's got that kind of thing in his conscience we are told not to push things off on him. not to use our liberty to make him stumble. For the Kingdom of God is not meat and drink, it's righteousness, peace, joy and the Holy Spirit.
---Mark_V. on 7/2/11


Josef, "That would depend upon the value an individual places upon such knowledge or teaching." I most value what I learn from God, whether directly from the Word, a brother or sister in the Lord.I've found some such teaching very helpful, but at other times, it's clouded an issue rather then clarified. So how does one know what source(s) to trust?. In the end, i will check it against the Word anyways. Do we NEED anything other then the Word? (I don't think so, except for the Holy Spirit of course) Please don't get me wrong, I think you have knowledge and wisdom from the Lord, and seek to "speak' what is of Him> Where/how have you learned? How can I find a reputable source?
---Christina on 7/2/11


The KJV was written in 1611, in old English, tranlated from Hebrew and Greek. To understand the truth you must understand that the words are not the English we speak now. Much is still being distorted due to the misinterpretations. Example, who knows the 'devils' real name? Where are all of the angels that sinned? I will not only tell you but show you in the Bible.
---Chip on 7/2/11


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MarkV. "What I see is many speak for their denominations, and because of their human nature and pride, don't want to be wrong no matter what Scripture says." I don't have a denomination, but I too have desired to be right, and have tried to support my ideas through scripture. Thank God he shows me that. In any case, I too think Christan's answers are good, supported by the Word. Bless you MarkV
---Christina on 7/2/11


Christina, I believe some here have good answers, especially Christan. There is no new revelation from God. The Bible is sufficient to bring the gospel to everyone whom God has chosen to save.
What I see is many speak for their denominations, and because of their human nature and pride, don't want to be wrong no matter what Scripture says. Their feelings get hurt so their flesh begins to respond with anger, and the Spirit is not able to teach the individual spiritual truth. Once their conscience feels something taught is wrong even when it is right, they don't want to go against conscience. Romans 14 speaks of this very thing.
---Mark_V. on 7/2/11


"Do such things add or detract?" That would depend upon the value an individual places upon such knowledge or teaching. To some that knowledge adds, to some, I suppose, it distracts. Personally I find a "knowledge of original Hebrew/Greek" invaluable. The only versions that I know of that makes a clear distinction between that which was originally written, and that which was added by the translators, is the KJ, NKJ, DBY, and WEB versions. Personally that is something that I need to know. However one studies, there is always a dependency upon the Holy Spirit, mans only teacher of things Spiritual, to bring understanding and clarity. And as I have often said, what ever one believes to be true, is for that one, Truth.
---Josef on 7/2/11


Christan, thank you, I'm in agreement with your posts, especially ""It is the Spirit that quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." John 6:63

"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself, but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." John 16:13"
---christina on 7/2/11


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no bible translation is "spirit lead" as even the KJV translators acknowledge and would deny, who by the way had many church of England scholars. The importance of understanding the writings original language is to have a fuller understanding and at times a better wording for what is to be translated. Translation is scholarship,and often can be influenced by doctrinal beliefs. There are a lot of greek and Hebrew scholars to read about the deeper meanings of these words.

"Study to show yourself approved"
---willa5568 on 7/1/11


It's either one is lead by the Holy Spirit or not. And in order to be lead by the Spirit, Jesus declared:

"Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3:3

Anyone can read the Scripture from Hebrew to Greek to Aramic, and unless John 3:3 takes place, the Scripture to him is merely head knowledge without faith that's from God, which Hebrews 6:6 says "without faith it is impossible to please Him".

Understanding and boasting you know the Scripture in Hebrew or Greek does not save a soul but only "grace through faith, which is a gift from God" saves the soul.
---christan on 7/1/11


So, how do you know which scholars to trust, if you yourself are not an expert???

But we have God who knows better than even the honest and honorable scholars. And not all scholars are honest. Like how they can misuse an English translation, they also can pervert themselves from the meaning of the Greek and Hebrew writings. There are people who study in order to prove what they have already decided the scriptures have to mean.

So, most of all we need how God makes us honest with Him, so we are living His love's meaning (c: deeper than any words can tell: "to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God." (Ephesians 3:19)
---Bill_willa6989 on 7/1/11


Christina, the Scripture is written by the Holy Spirit through the vessels God has chosen. More importantly, the Scripture is complete and nothing must be added on or taken out. Christ declared,

"It is the Spirit that quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." John 6:63

"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself, but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." John 16:13

Do not become obsessed with the Hebrew and Greek language over the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
---christan on 7/1/11


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Jesus said he is the vine.
A vine is a feminine word for a bush.
If taken literally God drug a bush out of Egypt.
According to the Hebrew a tabernacle is a dwelling place.
If taken literally I guess Peter was going to put off his house.
Just because the Lord revealed unto his disciples his parables for us to read it doesn't mean that was the end of his using parables and such.
The leading and revelations of the Holy Ghost are just as necessary for salvation today as then.
---Frank on 7/1/11


Donna5535: "Here's what I think. You get REVELATION knowledge when you study the Word and the Holy Spirit REVEALS truth to you. Truth is revealed," Yes, the Holy Spirit does reveal. Thank God!
Frank: "Too many are relying on their study of a word's meaning and rejecting what the Spirit shows a word to mean." I agree this happens, as I have seen in myself the desire to keep a favored belief, only to be corrected by the Holy Spirit,"lean not unto thine own understanding..." Amen!
---christina on 7/1/11


In my post I meant "seed" as "word" and "thorns" as "cares."
I mistake.
---Frank on 7/1/11


In Matthew 13:22 the words "seed" and "thorns" do not mean "word" and "heart."
Too many are relying on their study of a word's meaning and rejecting what the Spirit shows a word to mean.
The above example is why the pharisees, scribes and Jews could not grasp what Jesus was saying.
The same holds true today as people can not see the similitude, parable or proverb that the Lord uses and reveals by his Spirit.
Too many glory in their own knowledge when the scriptures are clear Lean not unto your own understanding. His ways and thoughts are not ours.
---Frank on 7/1/11


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Christina, you raise a VERY good point. Have you not heard? Do you not know? Cluny has ALL the answers? LOL I'm joking, but it does appear only Cluny has the RIGHT answers to every question asked on this site.

Here's what I think. You get REVELATION knowledge when you study the Word and the Holy Spirit REVEALS truth to you. Truth is revealed, not taught. Just my measley opinion. AND I think we can ONLY understand things when we go through something and the Lord teaches us through that experience. Like having a broken heart. "He heals the broken hearted and binds up their wounds." My Pastor told me he doesn't understand this because he's never been broken hearted. I have because I've been there. Make sense?
---Donna5535 on 7/1/11


\\Their are no new revelations but scriptural insight given on orig\\

Some people have "scriptural insights" saying there is a pre-trib rapture, others do not.

Some people have "scriptural insights" denying baptismal regeneration, others have insights that affirm it.

And so it goes.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/1/11


Cluny: "But what if YOUR still, small voice tells you the opposite of what MY still, small voice tells me?

God can't be both of them.True, however, it is God's voice we wait and listen for, and His sheep know His voice. I know too, my own voice, and thoughts, and how often they are corrected by God's "voice". It will line up with the Word,and has little to do with my natural thinking or intellect, (or lack thereof). I'm sure all that truly know Him, KNOW that in certain situations they've heard from God/had revelation from Him, and it being of Him, cannot be shaken. As we are led into further truth(s), the truth sets us free, and is, IMO, on a personal level, undeniable
---Christina on 7/1/11


cluny
The true acid test is if it lines up with existing scriptures.
Their are no new revelations but scriptural insight given on original text.
Paul
---paul on 7/1/11


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\\"I understand Spiritual revelation and appreciate it when it comes in a still small voice kind of way." \\

But what if YOUR still, small voice tells you the opposite of what MY still, small voice tells me?

God can't be both of them.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/1/11


I totally agree that the bible stands on its own, however when a word is not correctly translated. it needs to be changed in its proper sense. of course to build doctrines upon difference between phillios and agap (both can be well translated as LOVE. is an over-zeal of the orator.
---andy3996 on 7/1/11


It depends on what word is being expounded in the Hebrew and Greek, and for what purpose. For example, if I preach on the English word "It" used at the start of my reply here, breaking it down to its etymological definitions and its application, then the meaning of the sentence itself could be lost because of the analysis of that one word. Some words are understood without the extra analytical use of Hebrew and Greek. But in other instances the analysis is rightly called for in order to bring the correct definition to the verse, because the English translation is either inaccurrate or misdefined, in which case the Hebrew and Greek would increase the readers understanding of the Truth and not detract from it.
---Eloy on 6/30/11


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