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The Laws Of Love

The two Old Covenant royal laws of Love are that upon which Christ said all the Law and Prophets hang. What do you think is the essential difference to how that is now kept or fulfilled under the New Covenant of grace?

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 ---Brian_Hyde on 7/3/11
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Steven, disagreeing with your continuing trashing of the Church is why I answered you the first time. Most of your answers concern the church, the gathering of believers. Many here who are wrong, do not trash the church. They trash me for telling them the Truth but that is not important. They can do that anytime. We are called to edify the Church. But you do the opposite. I will defend the Word of God and His Church. Even though I know many within are teaching false, the Church still hold's the name of Christ and many who attend are saved. Your call, as all of us are responsible, should be to help make things right within the Church.
---Mark_V. on 7/14/11


Peter: "Mark V and Steveng: Reading what you write, I don't see any problem with either of your opinions (though sometimes my personal view differs!)."

Apparently you would also believe that if Jesus were on these blogs, you would believe that they were his opinions, too. And that his personal views are different than yours. This will be the downfall of christians especially during these end times. In fact, christians will be part of the many people who congratulate and send gifts to each other after they have killed the two end time prophets mentioned in Revelation because the prophets don't conform to worldly christians (denominational church) doctrines.
---Steveng on 7/13/11


Mark V and Steveng: Reading what you write, I don't see any problem with either of your opinions (though sometimes my personal view differs!).

How about each of you tries, for a month, not to reply to the other. Look up the other one's posts, read then, and work hard to see 'is this true?' with the assumption that it should be assumed innocent until proven guilty

Both of you might end the month with a nice surprise - that you are both proper, Bible-believing Christians, who just have different personal views
---Peter on 7/12/11


Mark_V.: "Steven, your only giving opinions but give no Scripture to back up what you say."

When I first came to this site several years ago as the Spirit guided, I just read the posts for the first year. Thereafter, I began posting, but I paraphrased a lot. Many people, including you, got angry with me to prove everything I said by verse numbers. So, from then on, I had to look for the verses to prove what I said was true before I posted. Then after I posted the verses, you and a few others argued that I interpreted the verses wrong. And for the past six months, I had you look up key words in the online KJV bible and you flamed me about doing that.
---Steveng on 7/12/11


--I willing to listen to what you have to give from the Word of God.--


If only that were true. Its funny how only the scriptures that you give contain "Truth". The ones that dont quite fit the doctrine are "taken out of context".

Last question for you Mark...

Who is working in Paul to warn every man, teach every man in wisdom and present every man perfect in Jesus Christ? (Col 1:28,29)
---CraigA on 7/12/11




I think I'm done, Kathr. He's so busy arguing for election that he's not even listening to the Holy Spirit anymore. That became evident when he accused you and I of being the same person. He has no discernment. Prayer is the only thing that can help him as he has turned a deaf ear to anyone preaching the gospel of repentance and faith in Jesus Christ. He was already "saved" before he came to faith in Jesus Christ, just as he said earlier.
---CraigA on 7/12/11


Markv, we are to discern the spirits to see if what we are being told is a lie. The Holy Spirit gives that discernment based on The Word of God.

You must be calling the Holy Spirit hateful for pointing out lies to me.

No hate here markV, yet, what is so wrong with hating a false doctrine that is so distructive to so many souls.

We are to hate that which is evil.

Proverbs 8:13
The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.


The fear of the Lord is also the beginning of Wisdom, but the wisdon that is in Christ Jesus, not calvin.

Thanks MarkV, you just made my day!
---kathr4453 on 7/12/11


Kathr, I'm glad you live your life by faith in Christ. I always thought so. Every believer has the power within himself to walk in the Spirit or walk in the flesh. You are just not walking in the Spirit more then you are in the flesh. The reason you have so much hate within you. You are not willing to walk differently. You will continue that way until God reveals something to you and you will change your ways if you are truly saved. I see that in many here. They let their feelings take over and in the process the Word of God gets lost. It is but pride. Scared to be wrong. And will do anything possible not to be wrong. That is why I hear a lot of opinions and a whole lot of religious talk.
---Mark_V. on 7/12/11


Craig, if you have Scripture to discuss, bring it on. If I have to hear your opinions everyday, they help no one. I willing to listen to what you have to give from the Word of God. Otherwise, your comments towards me have little effect on me. I have got my sword and my shield of faith, bring it on.
---Mark_V. on 7/12/11


---
Steven, your only giving opinions but give no Scripture to back up what you say.
---Mark_V

Welcome to the group of those who "give no scripture", Steven. Its not like it makes a difference because no matter how many scriptures you give they will be "taken out of context" like the rest of us do. We're just too simple-minded to understand the REAL meanings of words like "all" "any" "whole world" "every man" and "whosoever".
---CraigA on 7/12/11




I don't have to prove anything silly goose. Faith comes by hearing the word of God. BY FAITH Markv, I BELIEVE what Jesus said, and you don't. Simply stated I HAVE FAITH and you don't.

You need to be convinced beyond scripture. I don't.

You live by intellect, I live by FAITH.

I'm saved and your an intellectually lost soul picking and choosing WHAT scriptures you like and don't.

That verse you posted, AGAIN is taken out of context. "God working in us" ..the US here are those now saved, and has to do with our sanctification, not Justification.

You can fool some of the people some of the time markv, but not all the people all the time.

Some of us actually KNOW our scriptures, and the Lord.
---kathr4453 on 7/12/11


Steven, your only giving opinions but give no Scripture to back up what you say. You said,
"To become a christian is a personal choice. God doesn't make anyone do what they don't want to do"
It is a personal choice. Everyone has the natural ability to come to Christ. They are just not willing. They lack the moral ability. The nature of the Divine goodness is not only to open to those that knock, but also to cause them to knock and ask. "We are encourage to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling, "for it is God who worketh in us, both to will and to do of His good pleasure" And just because God is working in us, we strive to develop and to work out our own salvation.
---Mark_V. on 7/11/11


Mark_V.: "God never denies anyone who is willing. Why? because He makes them willing."

To become a christian is a personal choice. God doesn't make anyone do what they don't want to do. God does not force you to love him just like you can't make a person love you. God wants a personal relationship with his creation. He wants us to love him without forcing it upon us, that's not real love. Our relationship with him must grow. When our faith becomes strong, then, and only then, will he choose us into ministry. You, Mark, have a lot to learn about genuine love and personal relationships.
---Steveng on 7/11/11


Kathr, you have proven nothing. No where does that passage teach "free will" Do you not understand what free will is? No one's will is free. It is either a slave to Sin or a slave to righteousness. It is never free. It is not "whosoever' will. The whosoever will are those who make a decision whether they follow Him or not follow Him. Listen to the next verse. "Whosoever desires to save his life will lost it, but whoever loses his life for MY sake and the gospel's will save it." The lost don't want to lose their life for Christ, they don't even believe in him. Those who desire to save their lives without Christ will lose it. Those who love Christ are willing to lose their life for Him. Think Kathr.
---Mark_V. on 7/11/11


Mark 8:34
And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Markv, here it is in a nutshell. Followers of Christ were called disciples, and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.
---kathr4453 on 7/11/11


the dispensation of grace is a gift,giving by God freely,love is a by product of knowing and accepting christ,real love is not what most people think or many live today,most have numerous strings attached to their love
---tom2 on 7/11/11


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I dont how youre missing it, Mark. Did you not see the scripture I gave from Colossians?

Its written right there in black and white for you to see.

Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I (Paul) also labour, striving according to HIS working, which worketh in me mightily.

Paul knew it was God working in him to present EVERY man perfect is Jesus Christ. How is it that you dont know that and you think its some kind of deception from satan?
The same God who wanted you presented perfect in Jesus also wants everyone else. Some people resist God. Yes it DOES happen. Scripture even says we can do it.
---CraigA on 7/11/11


Thats really reaching, Mark. You can't take something Jesus said to one person or a group of people and apply it to the entire world of men.

THe Jews sought to kill him in 5:18,19 because He broke the sabbath and claimed to be God.

He was speaking to the Jews trying to kill him... Its right there in verse 19.
---CraigA on 7/11/11


Craig 2: was not posted.
2. Next, His long suffering to whom? The verse we are now considering tells us "but is long suffering to usward" And whom are the "usward?" In the opening verse of the chapter the Spirit tells us, "This second Epistle, beloved, I now write unto you" the "usward" is the beloved. Not willing that any should parish. The beloved, the usward, the elect. His decreed purpose is that all of His elect will come to repentace, and repent they shall. The present interval of grace will not end until the last of the "other sheep" of John 10:16 are safely folded, then will Christ return.
---Mark_V. on 7/11/11


Kathr, don't you realize how silly your answer is? You say that whosoever will is saying the person has free will. Does "whosoever will" mean free will? just nonesense. Sorry, but you would have to change the meaning of "whosever will".
Whosoever will, means just that. Who ever wills, will be saved. But they are not willing. Hello? They reject the gospel. Jesus said,
"You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life, and these are they which testify of Me. "But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life" John 5:39,40.
God never denies anyone who is willing. Why? because He makes them willing.
---Mark_V. on 7/11/11


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Mark, but youre missing the point.

If these people were already "saved" before even knowing Jesus Christ, then what is God patiently waiting for? Why does our Savior delay his return? The verse tells you why!

He is waiting for men to repent which you claim he only allows certain people to do. So God is waiting on himself? Yeah! Makes no sense does it?

The gospel is preached and men respond to that gospel by either belief or unbelief. Many people reject it and later on in life accept it. God is his great love is patiently enduring our sin and holding back his wrath as he waits for us to repent and accept his Son by faith.
---CraigA on 7/11/11


Well, there is only one way this issue can be solved.

So let's look again at scripture to find the answer.

What ONE THING can resolve this dilemma? ANS: WHO SO EVER WILL, AKA FREE WILL.

Wow, and there are many scriptures, along with many examples in scripture proving this. The WHOLE BOOK OF ACTS, John 3:16, Romans 10:9-10 and so on. And then all those warnings too to Christians after they are saved, again pointing to free will. The best solution for that, after you're saved is to surrender your will to God. Like Jesus who said,, "not my will BUT Thine be done.



.
---kathr4453 on 7/11/11


Craig, you gave 2 Peter 3:9, You took words out of context to make your point. Those verses must be understood and interpreted in the light of its context. you gave only a part of the verse and forgot to address who the writer was speaking about and of what he was talking about.
1. The Promise, not promises. The promise here is singular. Not speaking of salvation, "knowing this, that there shall come in the last days, scoffers, walking after their own lust, and saying, Where is the promise of His coming?" (v.3,4). The context refers to God's promise to send back His beloved Son.
Continue:
---Mark_V. on 7/11/11


God has given men the ability to choose.
It in no way undermines His sovereignty, nay, it confirms it.
Not only has God given us the ability to choose, He has also given us the authority to choose life or death through His Son.
The next is acceptance:This is where I believe the world stands, they have yet to eperience(hear, see, taste) Christ, or do not know that it is Christ they are experiencing.
How can they choose something better if what they have 'seems' so sweet to them?
--By watching others who are immersed in the sweetness of Christ so much that it shows to the world what they are missing.
Ability- I can
Authority- I may
Acceptance- I will
---micha9344 on 7/11/11


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MarkV, God bless you. "--God is not willing that everyone be saved, if He was, all would be saved. No one can stop God" Consider the verses Craig posted.
I believe God is sovereign, but that does not mean He doesn't allow choices/free will. If God chooses, He can't be stopped, but whats to keep Him from choosing NOT to dictate each and every choice a person makes. He delights to have me, and others of our free will choose Him. God is love and love does not seek it's own.(selfish intent) What of: choose this day whom you will serve? You know I love you Mark, and many times you've posted truths I agree with and have been a blessing. I am not here to cut you down, but hope we can encourage one another in the Truth.
---Christina on 7/11/11


--God is not willing that everyone be saved, if He was, all would be saved. No one can stop God.--Mark_V

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.


The words of the Holy Spirit declare you a false prophet, Mark.
---CraigA on 7/11/11


Craig, you say to me,
"so why does it bother you that He wishes all men to be saved and not just your little elite group? Pride maybe. "

If what you say was written I would believe it. I don't reject His Word. I reject your words that He does. God is not willing that everyone be saved, if He was, all would be saved. No one can stop God. The Grace of God does not find men fit to be elected, but makes them so" and again, "The nature of the Divine goodness is not only to open to those that knock, but also to cause them to knock and ask" Again you forget you are one of the elect if you are truely saved. If you are not saved, and if you are one of the elect, you will be saved in the future.
---Mark_V. on 7/10/11


Romans 11:32
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.


If MarkV and christan continued to read all the council of God they would both see Romans 11 TRUMPS Romans 9.

It clearly states That He may have mercy on all.

There are no little bottles of Jesus Blood with certain peoples names on them, just waiting to be applied to those already chosen. But that's the idea they want you to believe.

God can forgive and have mercy on anyone who places their faith in Jesus Christ. What they place their faith in is that He died for our sin. Once one believes this and receives this personally, THEN they are justified by His Blood, and saved by His life.
---kathr4453 on 7/10/11


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Romans 11:32
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.


If MarkV and christan continued to read all the council of God they would both see Romans 11 TRUMPS Romans 9.

It clearly states That He may have mercy on all.

There are no little bottles of Jesus Blood with certain peoples names on them, just waiting to be applied to those already chosen. But that's the idea they want you to believe.

God can forgive and have mercy on anyone who places their faith in Jesus Christ. What they place their faith in is that He died for our sin. Once one believes this and receives this personally, THEN they are justified by His Blood, and saved by His life.
---kathr4453 on 7/10/11


--Jesus shed His blood for ALL, as scripture tells is. YOU are blind to that truth. , just as the pharisees believed THEY were the only righteous ones.
---kathr4453 on 7/10/11

Nuf said!

--God has the right to have mercy on whom He wills.
---Mark_V. on 7/10/11

Of course He does, so why does it bother you that He wishes all men to be saved and not just your little elite group? Pride maybe. Maybe it strips you of your lofty position as Gods "chosen" and brings you down to earth with the rest of us sinners. The Pharisees hated that too, remember? Test the spirits, Mark. God commands us to.
---CraigA on 7/10/11


markv, it's your presumptuous arrogance stating to those who disagree with you that we are lost and not saved, cannot hear or see, etc.

Im saved markv, born again, God's elect according to Grace.

I did not save myself, I don't teach works salvtion. I cannot shed my own blood to forgive myself, thus saving myself. Only Christ's blood can save. Only through His blood is there forgivness of sin.

Jesus shed His blood for ALL, as scripture tells is. YOU are blind to that truth. , just as the pharisees believed THEY were the only righteous ones.
---kathr4453 on 7/10/11


Kathr, I cut no ones ear's off. They are without ears, blind, and cannot understand. I cannot make them. Here again, it takes for God to give them ears to hear, eyes to see, and a heart to perceive the Truth. I only present it, but as for you, you are not willing to listen to the Truth presented to you from God's Word. The same problem the lost have. They have the natural ability just like everyone does, but they are not willing to come to Christ. Jesus said so Himself. He said, you are not willing to come to Me that you might have life. All I do is present it. I'm not here to make anyone do anything they don't want to. You got angry when I said, God has the right to have mercy on whom He wills, You don't want God having that power over you.
---Mark_V. on 7/10/11


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Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed, neither hid, that shall not be known." Luke 12:1,2
---christan on 7/10/11
Absolutely christan, we all need to be aware of the leaven of the pharisees which is hypocrisy.

Paul stated as much in Galatia. Any other Gospel Paul stated was accursed. Including the Gospel of Calvinism. I don't see calvinism taught in Galatians. I don't see any reference to Jacob and Esau either. However I do see that of Isaac and Ishmael, Sarah and Hagar's children. AND thank goodness God never said Isaac I loved Ishmael I hated.

Yes, your false gospel will be uncovered with shame and you will give an account to God.
---kathr4453 on 7/10/11


"For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed, lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them." Matthew 13:15

"In the mean time, when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trode one upon another, he began to say unto his disciples first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed, neither hid, that shall not be known." Luke 12:1,2
---christan on 7/10/11


And Jesus declared - "This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." Matthew 15:8,9
---christan on 7/9/11

I see no one here teaching the doctrines of men, or any pharisees Jesus was speaking to. Jesus didn't go to or was not talking to pagan's either.

The problem CraigA, is these people use scripture out of context to ABUSE others.

My goodness, just read markv's conntinual opening lines to others. He cuts off their ears first AND insults them, and then he actually wants them to listen? NO. He wants to argue and abuse, just like christan's last post as well.
---kathr4453 on 7/9/11


Matthew 15:

Jesus castigated the pharisees because they had made the worship of God so narrow. God was being excluded from their everyday lives by the "commandments of men" that they taught. They took God's word and ADDED restrictions God never did, turning worship into a legal system no one could bare.

Doesn't this sound exactly like what the "PHARISEE Calvinists" have done.

Sorry christan, but if you are going to take scripture out of context to ABUSE others, it will come back to biite you in the end.

Judge not lest ye be judged. Take that oak tree out of your eye.
---kathr4453 on 7/9/11


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And Jesus declared - "This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." Matthew 15:8,9
---christan on 7/9/11


Donna66,

Calvinism has worked its way into this discussion the very same way it has every other discussion. Agendas that seek but one thing ~ to be right ~ have a way of doing that.
---believer on 7/8/11


Kathr, honestly I dont have a problem with either of them basing their eternal security in Christ on the teachings of Calvinism. Where my problem is at is when they dont consider the possibility that speaking lies such as "Christ didnt die for everyone" will most certainly turn some of the lost away from the calling of the Holy Spirit. They are doing the devil's work for him. Their doctrine isnt a threat to their salvation, yours or mine but it is a threat to the lost who dont already know Jesus died for them.

.
---CraigA on 7/8/11


I also laugh at claims that I dont know the God of scripture and Im sure you do. He put a love in me that I never had before. I have felt his presence in me and it is the most beautiful love I have ever experienced.

What I fear is the number of souls that will be turned away from Jesus when these "two" teach a god who allows us to be born into a nature that we cannot escape -or later on save ourselves from- and then condemn us for it without offering us a way out. What exactly would our sin be in that scenario? Being born?
That is not the doctrine of a god of love. That is a god who enjoys torture for his own good pleasure.
---CraigA on 7/8/11


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poopsey, Confusing predestination with foreknowledge?

Let dictionary decide since my "English is second language". Dictionary defines predestination: "the act of God foreordaining every event from eternity"

Familiar? Isaiah 14:27, "For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?"

Keywords in the above Scripture is "PURPOSED" (past tense) and "DISANNUL" (unchangeable), which is in line with the dictionary. Simply means that God NEVER loved Judas like He never loved Esau, and all this was already decided from eternity (Romans 9:11).

Who's confused?
---christan on 7/8/11


So based on your fascinating understanding and believe, are you declaring now that ------christan on 7/


christan/markv, the proper word here you both seem to get wrong is "belief", not believe. It's really hard to believe you're not one in the same. Strange coincidence isn't it.

CraigA, have you noticed this is ALL markv and christan know. It's all they know and all they talk about. It's all they will ever know , and all they will ever talk about too. That's a sign of brainwashing, not growth. What a shame.


---kathr4453 on 7/8/11


Christan: You need to really read that verse and think about it instead of just dismissing it because it doesn't fit your preconceived notions of predestination.

Again:
Psalm 41 NIV
9 Even my close friend,
someone I trusted,
one who shared my bread,
has turned[b] against me.

This verse has a double application. It also refers to Christ and Judas.

If Christ hated Judas then why refer to him as a friend?

If Christ hated Judas then why would he trust him?

And sharing meals is a form of intimacy so again evidence of some sort of relationship.

Christan, you are confusing predestination with foreknowledge. They are not the same thing.
---poopsey on 7/8/11


Matthew 22:45 "If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?"
---Nana on 7/8/11


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Gordon, "blood...gives us access to the Grace of GOD to strive to enter in the Narrow Gate."
I believe it is much more then access to strive (our works). Is Christ sufficient? I believe so, and I believe the following is for a reason: "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.
Even born again, I cannot attain in my own strength, but must depend on His strength and power in my weakness to fulfill commands. God works in us to WILL AND TO DO, and He began the good work WILL bring it to completion
---christina on 7/8/11


BRIAN, Grace opens the Door, through our Faith, to experience Hope to obtain Eternal Life. It does require us to obey the Ten Laws of Love (a/k/a The Ten Commandments), but, it's not just by following them alone that we can enter Eternal Life in Heaven. It is the Atoning Blood of YAHUSHUA, alone, that, again, gives us access to the Grace of GOD to strive to enter in the Narrow Gate. Being redeemed is a Two-Way street. GOD has done, and does do, HIS Part, and we Saints have our part to do. The "false Grace" of much of today's Churches teach that we no longer have to obey His Commands, since we're no longer "under the Law". But, it means that we are not striving to enter Heaven by mere obedience to the Law.
---Gordon on 7/8/11


Luke 23:34 does not teach that Jesus wanted to save everyone. His tormentors, both Jews and Romans (Acts 7:60) shows what Jesus was talking about. Some of the fruit of this prayer can be in the salvation of thousands of people in Jerusalem at Pentecost (Acts 2:41) this people were not aware of the full scope of their wickedness. They did not recognize Him as the true Messiah (Acts 13:27,28). They were blind to the light of divine truth. One of those forgiven was Paul. Paul's murderous hatred of all believers was manifested here in his Attitude towards Stephen ( 1 Tim. 1:13-15).
---Mark_V. on 7/8/11


Craig, I didn't say you were in unbelief. Please don't suppose that Christan and I or the same person. I don't think you would like for me to call you Kathr. And just because you do not believe the very words of God and reject them, you give an example why the lost reject coming to Christ. They have the natural ability to come, but are not willing to come, just like you are not willing to believe in the clear message of Scripture. Why are you not willing? What stops you from believing it? No one stops the lost from believing in the Lord Jesus Christ. Is anyone putting a gun to your head to believe it? No, you are free to make a decision, but you are not willing so how can you believe? Your actions proof what we are saying about the lost.
---Mark_V. on 7/8/11


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poopsey: "I would like you to contemplate something. Do you believe that Christ loved Judas, the betrayer?"

There's nothing to contemplate. It's straight forward as Jesus declared that he's the son of perdition (John 17:12) - confirming that God does not love everyone. And your quote of Psalm 41:9 also confirms that Judas was predestined to be a vessel of dishonor. When David wrote the Psalm, Christ and Judas was not on earth yet.

Christ confirmed saying "...but the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled." The keyword is "fulfilled". If you are using all those verses you quoted from the Scripture to tell me that God did love Judas, you have failed miserably.
---christan on 7/8/11


Poopsie, good post.(Christan: "And that's because God never loved you. How do you like this doctrine?") etc

These debates can be quite troubling, and I've noticed while going through some old posts, that some have gone on for a LONG time. I may insert a verse here and there, but don't wish to get drawn in, or away, so rather be in prayer.
---christina on 7/8/11


Very good proofs poopsey!

Luke 23:34 "Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do...."
---Nana on 7/8/11


Christan: "And that's because God never loved you. How do you like this doctrine?"

I would like you to contemplate something. Do you believe that Christ loved Judas, the betrayer?

Psalm 41 NIV
9 Even my close friend,
someone I trusted,
one who shared my bread,
has turned[b] against me.

John 13 NIV
18 I am not referring to all of you, I know those I have chosen. But this is to fulfill this passage of Scripture: He who shared my bread has turned[a] against me.[b]

21 After he had said this, Jesus was troubled in spirit and testified, Very truly I tell you, one of you is going to betray me.

Jesus is God so this is the depth of God's love.
---poopsey on 7/8/11


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Matthew 26:22 And they were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I?
---micha9344 on 7/8/11


Gosh, feel the tension within this blog. I could almost cut it with a sharp sword. You people throw around verses like you knew what you are talking about. Using worldly knowledge to understand spiritual things is ludicrous. An athiest could even do better. You people depend upon worldly understanding of verses, knowing your grammar very well, instead of spiritual understanding. And I'm not going to even begin about taking things out of context like I know many of you do.
---Steveng on 7/7/11


How did Calvin work his way into this discussion, anyhow?
---Donna66 on 7/7/11


--And here's the reason why you are in unbelief--Christan

Sorry Mark, but I do have faith in Jesus Christ. Just because I dont agree with Calvin doesnt determine whether or not I see the gates of heaven.

If I did agree with Calvin I would likely become enraged at those who disagree with us because they refuse to see me as Gods favorite. I might even kill a few dozen because theyve wounded by pride. The sign of a true follower of Jesus Christ, right? wrong!
---CraigA on 7/7/11


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The "Royal Laws of Love" (thou shall love the Lord with all thy heart, mind etc ...and thy neighbor as thyself) are in both Old and New Testaments. The OT has 10 commandments, 600 and some other laws, plus the writings of the Prophets. Following all these laws got to be very complex for the Jews(and would be for us!)
Jesus simplified it(as God promised in the OT)
Hbr 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them, (no need to check the law daily.)
Loving the Lord fully and loving others as ourselves, covers what Jesus considered the essential elements taught by the "law and prophets".
---Donna66 on 7/6/11


The Law of Love - How well we display our love as we angrily beat each other over the head with our proof texts! :-)
---John.usa on 7/6/11


Welp I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree (if thats even possible without me being judged as not even knowing God). I mean I know no hypercalvinist is ever wrong...

I guess we should just keep going and see what else you "two" (Ill play along) can come up with.

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.


---CraigA on 7/6/11


"I know you dont like to hear that men can reject Jesus even though He died for them..." CraigA

Don't like? You flatter yourself with your remarks, but you cannot fool the Christian. The consequence of reject or not believing in God's Word who is Christ, is because of unbelief. And here's the reason why you are in unbelief, it's because:

"For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all." Romans 11:32

And if you're not in His covenant of grace, He will not show you mercy and you will die in unbelief, making you reject Christ. And that's because God never loved you. How do you like this doctrine?
---christan on 7/6/11


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Craig, I read what you said and to oppose Christan's view you give a passage in Hebrews, but you did not interpret the passage correctly.

"Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which He was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace." Heb. 10:29.

The One sanctified refers to Christ in that He was set apart unto God ( John 17:19). Only true believers are sanctified like Christ. Those who knew the truth but trampled it, we know the punishment is worse for they insulted the Spirit and blaspheme the blood of the Covenant.
---Mark_V. on 7/6/11


-- So based on your fascinating understanding and believe, are you declaring now that Jesus didn't die for the Gentiles when He went to Calvary? --Christan

Haha Christan, thats not what I said at all, but its ok. Thats what happens when you see in black and white and refuse to see in color. His blood was for all things in heaven and in earth just as Colossians states. Hebrews also tells us that men who reject Jesus are counting the blood of the covenant that sanctified them as an unholy thing, proving that He didnt just die for those who would accept Him

I know you dont like to hear that men can reject Jesus even though He died for them because it destroys the core of Calvinism, but its certainly written in scripture.
---CraigA on 7/6/11


"Jesus is talking to the JEWS there!" CraigA

Of course He was talking to the Jews but what was His message? John 10:16, "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."

So based on your fascinating understanding and believe, are you declaring now that Jesus didn't die for the Gentiles when He went to Calvary? My goodness, not only are you stumbling all over your puke but you're eating it up at the same time.

You say you see and hear the Word of God. Do you?
---christan on 7/6/11


Christan, I completely agree with the covenant between the Godhead, called the Covenant of Redemption and does not directly include human beings, but nevertheless critically important. This Covenant involves the parties working together to effect human redemption. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and is rooted in eternity. Since God's plan of redemption was no afterthought, designed to repair a creation that went bad. This covenant stresses the total agreement between the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit in the plan of salvation.
What I was referring to was the Covenants that God made first to unfallen man, and later to fallen man who are sinners.
---Mark_V. on 7/6/11


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Jesus is talking to the JEWS there! Jesus said He was only sent to the "lost sheep of the house of Israel"! He even told his disciples to stay away from the Gentiles!

There is a remnant of Jews that were kept for Gods purposes!

Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left US a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
---CraigA on 7/5/11


MarkV, when God made His covenant, it was only between Him, His Son and His Holy Spirit. The elect are the beneficiary of His wonderful covenant of grace in Jesus Christ. Nowhere in the Scripture says the man has to agree to His covenant for it to be fulfilled.

As I believe that God chose His elect before the foundation of the world (ie in eternity), so to is His covenant made in eternity. This is confirmed by Christ when He declared:

"My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." John 10:29

The believing and the following of Christ is the consequence of the sinner being regenerated by the Holy Spirit and given the wonderful gift of faith.
---christan on 7/5/11


Christan 2, If I'm not phrasing my answer correctly let me know. All who are lost are descendants of Adam. They are under the Old covenant of works. The reason the New covenant is called "Covenant of Grace" is because it was made between God and sinners. The "Covenant of works" was made between God and His unfallen creatures, which included all mankind. The Covenant of works remains intact, for God still exercises His just judgment on lawbreakers. All human beings are included in the creation covenant. The reason they are all in need Christ.
---Mark_V. on 7/5/11


Christan, Old T. saints, and New T. saints are saved by grace through faith. The covenant God made with "unfallen" mankind was a covenant of works. In this covenant life was promised to Adam, and in him to his posterity, upon condition of perfect and personal obedience. Life is promise as a reward for obedience, for satisfying the condition of the covenant. Death for disobedience. This covenant is not unconditional. The penalty was not limited to Physical death, but to spiritual death, nor were that penalty's execution be delayed. Spiritual death was executed immediately to Adam and all his discendants. The covenant of grace was made between God and "sinners" "fallen mankind"
---Mark_V. on 7/5/11


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The New Testament has more about how to relate, for example, "submitting to one another in the fear of God." (Ephesians 5:21) And in His Sermon on the Mount Jesus starts off with how to be, not what to do and say. So, there is more attention to how we need to become, including "rather let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God." (1 Peter 3:4) So, we love God by being gentle and quiet in spirit so we are pleasing to Him. And "the love of God has been poured out in our hearts," we have in Romans 5:5. So, loving God includes being so personal with Him "in our hearts".
---Bill_willa6989 on 7/4/11


MarkV, I'm shock to hear this coming from you, "the Old Testament Covenant was of works of obedience". The saints of the OT and NT are saved by grace through faith. In other words, salvation by faith is no different between the OT and NT. Only in the OT, the person Christ was hidden and later revealed in the NT.

Ask yourself this,
1. did God save Israel from Egypt first and revealed Himself to them after saving them? or
2. did God save Israel because they obeyed Him?

The same is said of salvation to a Christian. I know my answer is clearly number 1. It is true that after God saves us, we are commanded to be obedient to Him... but can we? Only by grace...
---christan on 7/4/11


A few things here. The 2 upon which all hang are most crucial because if truly fulfilled, all the other commandments will be fulfilled also. Stealing, adultery, you name it, are acts not done in love, but with other intents, whether it be self, lust whatever.

"...essential difference to how that is now kept or fulfilled under the New Covenant of grace?" they are kept through the empowerment of the Holy Spirt within
---christina on 7/4/11


What is of particular interest is that Jesus quotes these two commandments out of, what some consider, the Law of Moses not out of, what the same consider, the Law of God, which, to them, is written in our hearts.
I believe some have this backwards.
---micha9344 on 7/4/11


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Brian, the difference, the Old Testament Covenant was of works of obedience. You break one law, and that is it, you have broken all the laws. The first thing on the list the Lord says,
"Therefore hear, O Israel, and be careful to observe it, that it may be well for you" Deut. 6:3.
God could not be represented in any material way as with idols, it had to be demonstrated in obedience to God's law in daily life, ( 11:16). Under the New Covenant explained in ( Ez. 36:27) "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statues, and you will keep My judgments and do them" Under the New Covenant, It is God who causes us to obey His judgments. We are not along trying to keep the law and failing.
---Mark_V. on 7/4/11


Because both "Laws of Love" are found in the OT and NT
Deuteronomy 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. Leviticus 19:18 thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I [am] the LORD.
They are both kept the same.

To not take God's name in vain in the OT is the same as not taking God's name in vain in the NT
To not steal in the OT is the same as not stealing in the NT
---francis on 7/4/11


Jesus said that on these 2 hang all the law and the prophets. So, fulfilling these laws, to love God, and our neighbor as ourselves, is both doing what the OT said, and also what Jesus said.
---Josep9347 on 7/4/11


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