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Call We Call Jesus YHWH

Can we call Jesus YHWH?

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 ---Marc on 7/3/11
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"Do you honestly think that I do not know the name of my own God?" Eloy

I honesly think that you do not know what the name means. Your mishandling of the biblical languages is clear to everyone but you.

Whoops I dissed [it] again. (Brittany Spears)

"For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge." Romans 10:12 ESV
---scott on 7/8/11


scott, You make me laugh by your feigned intellect, do you honestly think that I do not know the name of my own God? I already clearly posted his name, but you have not. We the saints from God do not call our Lord, "I am" when we talk with him, for we know full well the name of our God. Blaspheme the right no more, then instead of being sorry you will have praise: "Woe to them that call evil good, and good evil, that put darkness for light, and light for darkness, that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter. To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, because they have no light in them."
---Eloy on 7/8/11


"God's name yhwh means "The Lord always here." eloy

Sorry to 'diss' but this is false.

Ehyeh asher ehyeh means "I will be what (or who) I will be". Ex 3:14

See Ex 3:12 (2 verses earlier) where 'ehyeh' is rendered 'will be' in most bibles.
---scott on 7/8/11


God's name Yhwh literally means, "the Lord always here". In hebrew: Yeshuah, Salvation < Yhwh, Yahwah < Yah, the Lord + wah < hyh, am, always here. And in hebrew: Ahawa < awah, love. God is Love.
---Eloy on 7/8/11


"And el o him means father some of you need to look this up and have a understanding of hebrew." moses

Elohim does not mean father. It generally means God or Gods but it can also mean rulers, judges, angels, etc.


Father in Hebrew is 'Av' ('Abba' in Aramaic).
---scott on 7/7/11




It's awesome people see the differences between God and His Word, between the Father and the Son, but few recognize what they have in common, their power, wisdom, glory, and knowledge that only God could possess and that the Word humbled Himself from, subjecting Himself to the Father for the same attributes He once shared with God and became a man, and not only a man but a baby reared up through all of life's trials until the time appointed to which He suffered and died on the cross for the sins of all mankind. The mediator between God and man, the eternal Word made flesh.
---micha9344 on 7/7/11


"Thomas called Jesus 'The God of me', thus making him YHWH, at John 20:28." Marc

I find it odd that Jesus acknowledges Thomas saying he is God yet he told Mary to go tell his brothers he was going to His God and their God eight days before. Are we to believe Thomas out of an emotional reaction when he saw Jesus was truly resurrected believed he was God after Jesus said he was going to their God. Jesus says he is going to his God and Father which did not happen until the ascension where he sat down at the right hand of God. And it's odd that Mary said "Rabboni" which means teacher and then he tells her he is going to his God and Father?
---willa5568 on 7/7/11


the name of YHWH is the fsther not the son, and el o him means father some of you need to look this up and have a understanding of hebrew
---moses on 7/7/11


"The tetragrammaton should never be spoken!!!" HERE IT IS...THE DECALOGUE." John

Nothing to add to Gordon's perfectly stated remarks on this.
---scott on 7/7/11


Gordon,

I never said the angels created anything but they were sons of God to whom God was speaking which means the image and likeness could refer to them, and yes that is an assumption but because they are in heaven with God that is just as viable as anything. Referring to Jesus' baptism. Nothing implies the spirit as a person. considering God pours out of His spirit on all flesh, one person can not fill thousands. The Father said this is my son, Jesus prayed to his Father whom he called his God. "he trusts in God, let God deliver him now, if he desires him. For he said, I am the Son of God", son of God is not equivalent to God.
---willa5568 on 7/7/11




Willa5568, GOD said "Let US make...in OUR Image" Angels are messenger spirits, they have NO creation power! Creation Power belongs to GOD alone! The Context of the Verse of Genesis 1:26 is GOD talking of creating something. There is no Scriptural back up to indicate that angels helped out in the Creation Process. That is YOUR assumption, as well. It is you "assuming" just like you are accusing ME of "assuming" that GOD is Triune! When John the Baptist baptized YAHUSHUA (JESUS), it was the Son of GOD in the Water, the Holy Spirit descending "as a Dove" and the Father declaring in a Thunderous Voice "This is My Beloved Son...!". Let's see...that's 1...2...3, THREE PERSONS.
---Gordon on 7/7/11


//Further to that Jesus the Creator called Himself Elohim in Genesis speaking of 'us' //

This is an assumption based on your Christology. There is no proof this refers to a trinity and considering angels are ministering spirits it can certainly be referring to them who also bear Gods image as the sons of God. This occur three times which is, considering what I presented, very insufficient evidence. The understanding of "us" is debated to whether it refers to plurality or magnifying Gods majesty. To explain away the personal pronouns for God is poor scholarship and only an attempt to justify your doctrine. Not understanding eternality has nothing to do with Him using personal pronouns or they would apply to no one.
---willa5568 on 7/7/11


//There is no "logically" convincing argument for the Trinity//

Jesus said in prayer to his God, "that they may KNOW you the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you sent". Logically that proves Jesus is not God since the Father is the only true God. So to make your Christology true personal pronouns have to be explained away as well as Jesus calling God his Father, his God and the only true God by a Greek philosophical mythological explanation that he is "God-man". Your main argument comes from the gospel of John who said the purpose he wrote it was "that ye might believe that Jesus is Christ, the Son of God" and is the very book Jesus says the things above including 10:29,14:28
---willa5568 on 7/7/11


"Thomas called Jesus 'The God of me', thus making him YHWH, at John 20:28." Marc

If Thomas' words to Christ identify him as the Almighty then how are we to understand Christ's words to the Father at Revelation 3:12 when he referrs to Him as His God...three times?
---scott on 7/7/11


Donna66, Genesis 1:26 (KJV) says "And GOD said, Let US make man in OUR Image, after OUR Likeness..." "US" and "OUR" are plural pronouns.
---Gordon on 7/7/11


JOHN, The Scripture you just quoted says NOTHING about just simply SPEAKING His Name, or uttering His Name. It is warning against MISUSING His Name. It is warning against speaking His Name in a degrading and irreverant way. You have therefore twisted the meaning of that Verse.
---Gordon on 7/7/11


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Willa, do personal pronouns apply to God who is spirit, not human, lives outside of time, does not sleep or eat. He and His domain are beyond our comprehension.

How do time-locked creatures comprehend eternity?

That is why God provided the Bible in a language we can understand and in earth-bound terms. God does not live in time therefore does not live in days of any length, but writes to us of days, and months and years. Of sunrise and heaven above. Our language, in our terms. That which we, (not He) experience.

Further to that Jesus the Creator called Himself Elohim in Genesis speaking of 'us' and 'we' meaning at least two. But not two bodies, because God is bodyless invisible spirit. They are the persons of the Godhead.
---Warwick on 7/7/11


Willa--YWEH IS one God. If If He were three Gods He would say "we". Jesus and the Holy Spirit are are part of Him.

There is no "logically" convincing argument for the Trinity.
But no part of my body functions independently, all parts function according to my will or my inborn nature. But I don't have to name them all everytime I speak of myself. However it's possible for my foot to itch and my ear to hear.

God, however, is onipresent. He can be everywhere at once. Any part of Him, or all of Him... may be anywhere, any time or all the time, in any form He pleases. That's the nature of Divinity.
---Donna66 on 7/6/11


Willa and the other Arians,

'I am YHWH and there is no god beside me' is no problem for Trinitarians. It is a problem for you polytheists because you believe Jesus is another god. The concept that three is one has never been as big a problem as you have made it out to be. It's all about the eternal relationship of God.

The problem for you is to try and find why Thomas called Jesus 'The God of me', thus making him YHWH, at John 20:28.
---Marc on 7/6/11


"The tetragrammaton should never be spoken!!!" John

Why? What scripture says such a thing?
---scott on 7/6/11

HERE IT IS...

THE DECALOGUE(aka" Ten Commandments)

"You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name"
---John on 7/6/11


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Warwick,

if you are so certain Jesus is God, please answer the question I asked Marc. When YHWH speaks in the OT personal pronouns are always used which are thousands of times. When it says "I am YHWH your God, there is none beside me" there is one person speaking which is simple grammar. Who is the "I" and "me" who says there is none beside ME. And how do you justify an "I" or "me",a singular person, being three?
---willa5568 on 7/6/11


Willa, you are saying Jesus lied when He said (John 2:19) "Destroy this temple, (His body John 2:21) and I will raise it again in three days."

He plainly says I will raise it again.

This is no puzzle for those who know He is God but for you and the JW's it is.

What you have written does not contradict what Jesus said, which is consistent with Trinitarian belief-God raised Him, Jesus raised Himslef, same thing.

Regarding 2 Creators etc you are being slippery. We do not have 2 Creators etc, you and the JW's do. We have one God, who is Creator, Redeemer, Saviour and Coming King. All titles given to God in the OT and Jesus in the NT-the same God.
---Warwick on 7/6/11


We can call JESUS after His Father YAHWEH's Name. We can call JESUS "YAHUSHUA".
---Gordon on 7/6/11


Warwick,

John 2:19 causes no problem because no one understood until the resurrection. After his resurrection it was God who raised him as the Apostles say consistently. If this one verse is your proof, that is weak evidence. Every time after the resurrection it says God raised him. Did the Apostles and even Jesus himself say God is his Father post resurrection when he sat down at GODS right hand after ascending and then say he is God as clear as this? This is why the concoction of God-man was created.

"We give thanks to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, always praying for you" -Colossians 1:3

They pray to the Father and God of Jesus giving thanks for their faith in Messiah and love for the saints
---willa5568 on 7/6/11


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"The tetragrammaton should never be spoken!!!" John

Why? What scripture says such a thing?
---scott on 7/6/11


Warwick-You must have 2 Creators, 2 Saviours, 2 Redeemers and 2 who are the beginning and the end, what a mess!-

You said it not me, that's why it's a deception.
---willa5568 on 7/6/11


Marc,

first I am not a JW but a biblical Unitarian, one God the Father, one Lord Jesus Christ(not God). And I did answer you question with a question, but to make it clear, no I do not call him YHWH nor am I commanded to. It says "he name shall be called" not "you will call him". here is my question I asked-
If Jesus,the Father and the holy spirit are YHWH, these three persons are one YHWH. Yet when YHWH speaks personal pronouns are used (I,me,myself...). One person is speaking "I am YHWH your God, there is none beside me" yet YHWH is claimed to be three persons. Who is saying "I" and "me" and how do you justify an "I" or "me" being three persons?
---willa5568 on 7/6/11


Marc/Warwick

SInce the same exact language "Jehovah is our righteousness" is applied to the city of Jerusalem (Jer 33:16) are you also going to refer to Jerusalem by that name?

How did Jeusalem bear that name? Did the Israelites (or anyone) actually refer to the city as "Jehovah is our righteousness"?

"Because of him [God vs 27-28] you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification...so that, as it is written, "Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord." 1 Cor 1:30, 31

Paul quotes Jeremiah 9:23, 24 "Thus saith Jehovah, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom...But...In understanding and knowing Me, For I am Jehovah..."
---scott on 7/6/11


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scott, "birds of a feather flock together", the sinuous with the sinuous, and the righteous with the righteous.
---Eloy on 7/6/11


Marc/Warwick. It is you who have argued for a literal understanding regarding the divine name, suggesting that Jesus literally is and should be named "Jehovah." Your comments on this thread and "What is God's name" make this clear.

Jehovah's Witnesses do not agree with you and believe that, as in the case with the angel at Ex 23:20, 21, Jesus only symbolically carries God's name as a representative of Him and as an indication that He came to do His Father's will.

Witnesses refer to Jehovah as Jehovah and Jesus as Jesus.

The question remains for you (not the WItnesses):

If, as you've argued, Jesus has literally been given the name of the Father why don't you refer to Jesus as Jehovah?
---scott on 7/6/11


Marc, I doubt you will get an answer. I imagine the Watchtower society hasn't provided the JW's one for this question. Too hot to handle, as the implications are obvious.
---Warwick on 7/6/11


Willa, you have God saying He raised Jesus from the dead, as though that makes a case. However as I showed, and you ignored, Jesus says He raised Himself up.

In your story one of them is lying. Which one? Is is God who does not lie (Titus 1:2) or Jesus the way the truth and the life-John 14:6?

However those who accept the obvious, (that the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit are God) have no such problem.

The same goes for the fact that both God and Jesus are called Creator, Saviour, Redeemer, and the Alpha and the Omega. You must have 2 Creators, 2 Saviours, 2 Redeemers and 2 who are the beginning and the end!

What a mess!
---Warwick on 7/6/11


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Willa and the other JWs,

Again you avoid actually answering my question, preferring to invent one of your own and then convince yourself that you've answerd MY question. I repeat: In your Kingdom Watchtower meetings do you ever say something like 'As the prophet Jeremiah said we may call him, Jesus, Son of God, your name is 'Jehovah Our righteousness'?

Or, in your prayers to the Father, do you say, Our Father, we thank you for sending your son, Jehovah our righteousness, as the prophet Jeremiah said we may.'?
---Marc on 7/6/11


Warwick,

1Peter 1:21, apology.

And there is a contradiction between John 2:19 and what I presented. Galatians says God the Father raised him from the dead. The rest say God raised "him". God is a person and him is a person, two separate persons. God can not raise him if him is God. In 1Peter it says God raised him from the dead AND gave him glory so our faith and hope may be in God who raised him and gave him glory.

And by the way I do not believe he was or is an angel!
---willa5568 on 7/6/11


Willa, you wrote ""who through him(Jesus) are believing in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God."

It is helpful to give the Bible reference for a quote.

Acts 2:24, and 10:40, do say God raised Jesus from the dead. However perplexingly for the antiTrinitarian John 2:19 reads "Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, (His body John 2:21) and I will raise it again in three days."

As Jesus is God there is no contradiction. But if Jesus were man or angel, as some falsely claim, then it makes no sense. How can a dead man raise himself up?
---Warwick on 7/6/11


Marc,

"if thou confess in thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved" -Romans 10:9

"... but through Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who did raise him out of the dead"-Galatians 1:1,

also Colossians 2:12 which starts in 1:3 "We give thanks to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ"

"who through him(Jesus) are believing in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God."

His God and Father raised Jesus from the dead so our faith and hope may be in God(the Father)

Please don't explain this away because if what I say is true your committing idolatry
---willa5568 on 7/6/11


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Scott responds: The question REALLY is: Marc, do you call Jesus "Jehovah our righteousness"?

A silly question: Christians know Christ is YHWH, as you already know, so it's asked to deliberately avoid my question.

I'll ask again: In your Kingdom Watchtower meetings do you ever say something like As the prophet Jeremiah instructed us to call him, Jesus, Son of God, your name is 'Jehovah Our righteousness'?

Or, in your prayers to the Father, do you say, Our Father, we thank you for sending your son, Jehovah our righteousness, as the prophet Jeremiah told us to.?

Re Jerusalem being called by the same name, see Ezekiel 48:35, Revelation 21:22-23 & 22:1-5. It's a puzzle for non-Christian Arians.
---Marc on 7/5/11


If you meet a man for the first time and he lies to you immediately (and subsequently) by replacing someone else's words with his own, would you trust him?

The Watchtower does this in the Bible's first book, first chapter, second verse, by altering God's Word. This non-Christian movement has the Bible saying, 'and God's active force was moving to and fro'

It changed 'spirit' [ruah] to 'active force'. What liars! What deceivers!

Why would you trust them after that!
---Marc on 7/5/11


"Eloy's poor Greek scholarship." Cluny

I think we actually agree on something!

Glory to Christ and his Father Jehovah!
---scott on 7/5/11


"The New World Translation..." Mark_V

I'm happy to throw in my two shekels on other verses though, as in the past, you'll likely not take me up on it. However before doing so...

...it was you who disparaged the NWT's question mark at John 20:28,29, suggesting that it was some sort of trick. And yet I've provided at least seven other translations that have translated the Greek text in the very same way.

Were you hasty or just ill-informed? Either one works for me.

What say you now about the NWT being in complete harmony with the ESV, NASB and the Amplified Bible in it's rendering of John 20:28, 29 regarding it's 'tricky' question mark?
---scott on 7/5/11


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Ruben,

it is not about who is or isn't correct in their interpretation, but can we be objective enough to learn what scripture truly says without limiting ourselves to what we are told we should believe. If all we do is look for proof text to refute what we are challenged with and do not examine what is being presented and the possibility it is correct, are we truly disciples (learners)? On this subject, though I once believed the trinity to be true, I found when I was willing to study scripture without preconceived ideas, things became much clearer. As I tell anyone, don't take what I say as right, take the information and search the scripture to see whether it is true or not.
---willa5568 on 7/5/11


cluny, what a condemned antiChrist and antiChristian sinuously calls "poor", Christ Almighty rightly calls "approved and excellent".
---Eloy on 7/5/11


The tetragrammaton should never be spoken!!!

But to answer your question. YES! He said so Himself. He called Himself The IAM!
---John on 7/5/11


Foolish dissers are given a great delusional for not believing the truth, but having pleasure in unrighteouness. They will think that Christ, whom has proven that he is The Almighty, is a second lesser God with another imaginary God whom is greater than him.
---Eloy on 7/5/11


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Ruben,

My point is our doctrine is not valid if it is not scripture that is the foundation. You can not use a handful of verses to establish when a doctrine is true when 100's of handfuls say the opposite. The truth, Gods word, is our foundation. I'm not sure why you would disagree with this.
---willa5568 on 7/5/11

Because if we disagree on a scripture verse and we do, whose interpretation is correct, and why?
---Ruben on 7/5/11


Ruben,

My point is our doctrine is not valid if it is not scripture that is the foundation. You can not use a handful of verses to establish when a doctrine is true when 100's of handfuls say the opposite. The truth, Gods word, is our foundation. I'm not sure why you would disagree with this.
---willa5568 on 7/5/11


Scott, I do know why the New World Translation was created, it was to deceive others by stripping Christ of His deity. Words were added and words were removed from the New World Translation, for that purpose only. Example, Col. 1:16,17 Witness readers claim that Jesus was created by Jehovah. They say Jesus was the very first creation of Jehovah. In Col 1:16,17 the word (other) was added to the NWT four times. These word (other) is not in the Greek, neither can it be found in the Kingdom Interinear Translation. The purpose? To strip Christ of His deity.
---Mark_V. on 7/5/11


\\And which translation renders John 14:28 "The Father is larger than me"?\\

Just another example of how Eloy's poor Greek scholarship falsifies the Biblical text.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/5/11


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to all who are trinitarian. I am attempting to provoke you to be objective in studying what most of Christendom has been told is Orthodox. If what we believe can not stand by scripture alone being the foundation but instead of using words and ideas created by men as the foundation and then built with scripture (hypo-static union, three being one, God the son) what can we stand on?
---willa5568 on 7/5

But how can we stand on scripture alone, when scripture itself does not tell us it is the foundation of truth?
---Ruben on 7/5/11


Meizon- "Larger"" Eloy

And which translation renders John 14:28 "The Father is larger than me"?

Certainly not your uncorrupted KJV.

Should Luke 22:26 read "But he that is larger among you, let him be as the younger...".

Meizon= 1) greater, larger, elder, stronger
---scott on 7/5/11


scott, how were you seduced into the neo-arian mystery of iniquity with all of its romanizing ballast?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/5/11


David,

Yes brother, we had our District Convention, all 38,000 of us, 4 weeks ago. You will thoroughly enjoy every minute of the three day (free) program.

As an ex-Baptist I still am waiting for the collection plate to pass under my nose, either at the Kingdom Hall or at the conventions. It's finally sinking in that Witnesses never 'pass the plate' and never have paid ministers. Quite a contrast from my past experience.
---scott on 7/5/11


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Eloy,

it can be larger, yes, but according to Thayer it can be greater, elder, stronger. So no matter how you put it, every English translation I have read, over 30,says "greater", larger is no different in meaning in this verse. You don't have to accept it but it still stands without explanation.
---willa5568 on 7/5/11


to all who are trinitarian. I am attempting to provoke you to be objective in studying what most of Christendom has been told is Orthodox. If what we believe can not stand by scripture alone being the foundation but instead of using words and ideas created by men as the foundation and then built with scripture (hypo-static union, three being one, God the son) what can we stand on? The humanity of Jesus, though unique, cannot be argued, nor can him having a God who is his Father, growing in wisdom,dying and being raised by God or being tempted. The foundation of Christianity is Jesus being the Messiah who atoned for our sin and was raised from the dead. Do not search to prove he is God but search to see who he is, then you will know the truth.
---willa5568 on 7/5/11


willa5568, There is no "if" Jesus is Yhwh, but only, "Jesus is Yhwh". The reason there are contradictions printed in the English Bible is because of inaccurrate or mistranslations of the Greek words into English words. lit.Gk: "You all heard that I told you: I go, and come for you. If you all loved me, you all joyful if for that saying: I am going for the Father, because the Father of me, being 'meizon' (lit.'larger') of me." Jn.14:28. You see, when Omnipresent God whom is in all places at all times, put himself into flesh being born in the body of Jesus, he became static or localized as humans are, but God whom is Spirit is larger than a man's body and is in all places at all times.
---Eloy on 7/5/11


If Jesus is YHWH and is claimed to have said he was, though also a man, then when he supposedly speaks as a man and not YHWH he still knows he is YHWH. So he, knowing he is YHWH, says the Father is his God and is greater than him. It means he has a God as a man but is God, he is less than God as a man yet is equal, as a man he was tempted(Heb. 4:15) yet as God could not be tempted(James 1:13), he died and was raised by God yet as God he could not die,we are called his brothers yet cannot be because he is God. If these things are so and have to be if he is to be man and God, nothing he says as a "man" was possible for him to do because YHWH can not do these things or He ceases to be YHWH.
---willa5568 on 7/5/11


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Yes, each of us real born-again Christians knows full well whom is antiChrist and antiGod and antiBible on here. Any person whom disses Almighty Christ, and does not praise him nor worship him nor give him the honor due his name is indeed antiChrist and an unsaved sinner.
---Eloy on 7/5/11


It was the common practice is Jesus' day- and still is in some cultures today to prostrate oneself before someone out of respect, pay the homage or merely to greet. This is not an act of worship and for this I agree with scott.

When challenged with the issue of worship, Jesus directed all worship to Jehovah- Mt.4:10.

By the way scott, hope you enjoy your 'Let God's Kingdom Come' Convention if you haven't already had it. I'm going to mine next week.
---David8318 on 7/5/11


It's a lot easier when you can recognize the cult members so easily on here.
---KarenD on 7/4/11


Regarding whether or not we should worship Jesus, at Matthew 4:9,10 Jesus is tempted by Satan who offered Jesus 'all the Kingdoms of the World' if he did an act of worship to Satan.

That request is enough in itself to indicate Jesus is not Jehovah- Satan knew he could tempt Jesus- but not Jehovah.

What is interesting is Jesus' response to Satan. Jesus quotes Deuteronomy 6:13 where God's name in Hebrew is found, '(YHWH) Jehovah your God you should fear, and him you should serve, and by his name you should swear.'

Jesus does not direct worship to himself. He would have done if he were Jehovah. But he doesn't. Jesus is not Jehovah God.
---David8318 on 7/4/11


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If Jesus,the Father and the holy spirit are YHWH, these three persons are one YHWH. Yet when YHWH speaks personal pronouns are used (I,me,myself...). One person is speaking "I am YHWH your God, there is none beside me" yet YHWH is claimed to be three persons. Who is saying "I" and "me" and how do you justify an "I" or "me" being three persons?
---willa5568 on 7/4/11


"Worship" of Jesus. christina

Worship (Greek)- "PROSKUNEO ... to make obeisance, do reverence to...is the most frequent word rendered 'to worship'. It is used for an act of homage or reverence (a) to God ..., (b) to Christ ..., (c) to a man, Matt. 18:26."

J. H. Thayer defines proskuneo:

"Kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication. It is used a. of homage shown to men of superior rank [position] ... Rev. 3:9 .... b. of homage rendered to God and the ascended Christ, to heavenly beings [angels]"

Thayer's Greek-English NT Lexicon,1977, p. 548
---scott on 7/4/11


As for the deity of Jesus, Jesus himself says to worship God alone, or only. That being the case, consider Matthew 28:9
Suddenly Jesus met them. Greetings, he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him." the disciples also worshiped Jesus in Matt 14. Jesus did not correct them, which I'm sure He would have done if He were not God.
---Christina on 7/4/11


Jesus says to tell his BROTHERS he is going to his Father and God who is theirs as well(John 20:17). Mary told them saying "I have seen the Lord..." and also told them what was said in vs.17. So essentially Jesus is saying to Thomas, "Yes Thomas I am God, why did you not believe I am alive and am going to our God and Father as Mary said"
---willa5568 on 7/4/11


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We can thank trinitarian Warwick for highlighting trinitarian corruptions of God's word. I wonder what other verses he'll drag up in support of the pagan trinity that are in fact trinitarian corruptions.

So far, Warwick has shown us-

John 17:11. Trinitarians deceitfully insert the word 'name' twice in this scripture when it only appears once, thus distorting Jesus' words.

John 14:14. Copyist and translators influenced by the Hellenic trinity began deceitfully inserting 'me' in this verse from the 3rd Century onward to twist Jesus' words suggesting he was saying 'if you ask me in my name'. NWT and KjV are in agreement with eachother on the correct rendering.

What other trinitarian corruptions can you find Warwick?
---David8318 on 7/4/11


Yes, Yhwh is Yeshuah: Jesus is God: "Know you all that Yhwh, he God, none else. Who will give Yeshuah up to Israel out of Zion: when Yhwh turns the captivity of his people, Iaakob will rejoice, Israel will be glad. He will call on me, and I will answer him: I with him in distress, I will rescue him and honor him. Length of days will I satisfy him, and will make him see my Yeshuah. Note, God my Yeshuah, I will trust and not fear: for Yh Yhwh, my strength and song, he also is become my salvation. Note, Yhwh has proclaimed to the ends of the earth, Say to the daughter of Zion, Note, your Yeshuah comes: note, his reward with him, and his recompense forward by him." -Brit Attiq or Old Testament of B.C. Before Christ.
---Eloy on 7/4/11


NWT Question mark- "Nice trick". Mark V

"Have you believed because you have seen me?" ESV

"Because you have seen Me, have you believed?" NASB

"Because you have seen Me, Thomas, do you now believe (trust, have faith)?" Amplified Bible

"Do you believe because you see me?" Common English Bible

"Thomas, do you have faith because you have seen me? Contemporary English Bible

"Do you believe because you see me?" Good News Translation

"You yourself have seen me. Is that why you now believe?" Worldwide English NT


Are all of these translations attempting to 'trick' their readers?
---scott on 7/4/11


Marc curiously tells Willa:

"However the verse actually says that "his name by which he will be called is 'YHWH our righteousness'.

And then "...So, Willa, do you call Jesus YHWH as God commands?"

Hold on a moment. Notice the convenient editing of the phrase.

What was the 'name' again? What would he be called?

Not 'Jehovah' as Marc has asserted but "Jehovah is our righteousness".

The question REALLY is: So Marc, do you call Jesus "YHWH (Jehovah) is our righteousness"?

Really? I'll await an example of that in one of your future posts.
---scott on 7/4/11


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billwilla,

this same name is also used of Joshua the son of Nun and three other persons in the OT. So we would also have to say the same of them. Also another example Jehoiachin- YHWH establishes. There are many Hebrew names containing YHWH. And you are correct they used their language(Hebrew/Aramaic) when speaking of Jesus. In Acts the Apostles without variance say he was a man whom God worked through, thus rejecting him as God himself, but rather an agent used to accomplish YHWH's purposes. I'm not sure if you are saying this or are opposing it, either way it is meant for conformation or information.
---willa5568 on 7/4/11


Well, in the bible translations that I have read, our Apostle Paul and the other apostles, like in Acts, were calling Jesus by the name of Jesus, but I would say in their language. And if the name of Jesus in Hebrew is made of a part meaning YHWH and a word meaning "saved" or "salvation", in their language they were calling Him "Yahweh-saved" or "Yahweh (is) salvation" or something like this. I have been informed that "is" does not appear in Hebrew. So, "is" would be understood, if they called Jesus "Yahweh salvation". But, in English, the name Jesus is not constructed with English vocabulary words like how Hebrew names are made of vocabulary words.
---Bill_willa6989 on 7/4/11


Marc,

Jerusalem is called "YHWH our righteousness". Do you call Jerusalem YHWH? If you say scripture demands one to be called YHWH then it would have to apply to both since the same statement is used for both.
---willa5568 on 7/4/11


Marc,

Jeruselem is called "YHWH our righteousness" as well. Does that mean it is YWHW? This man, the root of David, is the one who restores righteousness and justice and is raised up by YHWH who said "I will raise up for David a righteous branch and he shall reign as king". Names in the Hebrew are symbolic not literal or Peter is literally a "rock"
---willa5568 on 7/4/11


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David8313, I'm a trinitarian and don't insist that the world "me" be added to John 14:14. What does the word "me" have to do with anything anyone has said? I believe you should get yourself another Bible other then the New World Translation. They keep changing it to make sure that Christ deity is removed as Lord and Creator of all things. Talk about twisting Scripture, in John 20:28,29 "And Tomas answered and said unto Him, My Lord and my God" (clearly saying Jesus was God) Jesus saith unto him, "Thomas because thou hast seen Me, thou hast believed:" The New World Translation has a question mark at the end of believed. To bring question to what Thomas had said about the Lord been God. Good trick.
---Mark_V. on 7/4/11


another thing.

John 17:3 "this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent"

Jesus himself rejects what you say. He says eternal life is to know the Father who is the ONLY true God AND Jesus Christ who the ONLY true God sent.

Mark 12:29 "Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord"

12:32 "You have told the truth that there is one God[there is one], and there is none other but He"(nearly all critical editors and expositors say the text should have been "there is one...(Jamieson,Fausset,Brown)

12:34 "Jesus saw how wisely the man answered..."

This scribe wisely agrees with Jesus, will you?
---willa5568 on 7/4/11


thankyou david. correct many bibles today in the NT do not follow the original greek mss. Therefore with the translations they added many things. in my nkjv I found at least 122 mistakes that shouldn't be there.
---candice on 7/4/11


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