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Is Jesus The Angel Michael

Is Jesus the Arc-angel Michael, and is there two or three witness's that say he is in scripture?

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 ---willa5568 on 7/5/11
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"I and the Father are one." John 10:30

"'One also expresses the unity between Christ and the Father (Jn 10:30), the union between believers and the Godhead, and the unity which exists among Christians (Jn 17:21, Gal. 3:28). 'One' further expresses singleness of purpose".

New Bible Dictionary p. 844, (2nd ed.), 1982, Tyndale House Publ.


Biblical Greek expert Joseph H. Thayer regarding "one"

"To be united most closely (in will, spirit), Jn x.30 [John 10:30], xvii.11, 21-23 [John 17:11, 21-23]".

Thayers Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, p. 186, Baker Book House, tenth printing, August, 1984.
---scott on 7/8/11


"I and the Father are one." warwick

You overlook the dilemma that this verse poses for 'orthodox' trinitarians if taken literally.

The 'orthodox' view (although we're discussing a binity here...no HS) is that the Father is one person in the 'godhead' and the Son is another. Two separate persons. One being.

With me so far?

So to suggest that the Father is literally the Son moves you away from the 'orthodox' teaching and into Modalism or Sabellianism that essentially views God as operating in different 'modes' at different times.

This is also the problem that you have Created for yourself with your 'Jesus is Jehovah' rhetoric.

You might want to have someone explain the trinity to you.
---scott on 7/8/11


"Where does it explicitly give any reference...?" Warwick

Surely you see the irony in this statement.

You are willing to piece together, through inference and suggestion your trinitarian viewpoint (an eisegetical crazy-quilt) where there is obviously no 'explicit' declaration that says God is three divine persons in one. Not even close, anywhere within the pages of God's word.

Where explicitness and logic fails and reason is suspended you are willing to chalk it off to a grand mystery, something that mankind is unable to grasp.

But you demand an explicit reference here? Wow.
---scott on 7/8/11


Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony, and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Let me see if I have some of these posts straight.
First came Michael, the archangel.
He(?) became Jesus, the Son of man.
Jesus, the Lamb of God became Michael the archangel after His ascension to Heaven.
Michael fights with Satan, his equal(?) and only wins because his blood was shed when he was Jesus, the Lamb of God.
It sounds very confusing.
What name shall I have the dead call upon if Yeshua is not Yeshua anymore?
Forgive me Lord
---micha9344 on 7/8/11


1 John 2:27
the anointing which ye have received of him abideth [in you, and ye need not that any man teach you]: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

[To Him] be the glory
Amen.
---char on 7/8/11

The Glory Indeed.
Your style is Char and inspired.

Hebrews 10:16
This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them,

Matthew 13:13
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not, and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
---Trav on 7/8/11




Scott, in John 10,30 Jesus says "I and the Father are one." You said this means they were one in purpose-makes no sense.

Jesus says this and the Jews want to kill Him saying "You a mere man claim to be God." Therefore "I and the Father are one" is a claim to be God.

Jesus prayed believers would be one as He and the Father are.

If Jesus being 'one' with the Father is the same as me being 'one' with another believer can I say:

"Whatever the Father does Warwick also does in like manner" John 5:19.

Or "He that does not honour Warwick does not honour the Father.." John 5:23

Can I say "He who has seen Warwick has seen the Father" John 14:9
---Warwick on 7/8/11


(1) The Lord Jesus Christ created all things including angels. HE who creates is greater than all HE created.(2) The Lord Jesus Christ accepts human worship while on earth in the flesh and even now in the Spirit(angels do not Rev.19:10). HE communicates with true believers, if HE is not GOD HE would have corrected us who call HIM GOD.
---Adetunji on 7/8/11


is there so much distortion of the truth today in the world that it seems everyone has a different truth they proclaim?
---tom2 on 7/8/11

Let them distort themselves. Unless GOD placed in our sphere.
GOD provides sheep with two+ witnesses for every opinion or pat answer any doc or denom that proclaims theirs only.
Seeking GOD/Christ first and seek the answer in scripture. Easy with a concordance online or book form. Strongs.
Meat eaters should utilize Char's proven witness and chase/sift the word concerned with to the Hebrew Greek origin for deeper/taste understanding.
One can only digest so much meat at time. Mental/spiritual digestion process is similar that feeding our body. We retain that which sustains.
---Trav on 7/8/11


//You bring out the Berean in me.
Thank you and bless you both.---micha9344 on 7/8/11//

Bless you brother.

God confirms His Word. 1 Jn 5
He swore by it. Is 45:23
He Teaches it.
His Word resurrects within you [by Him].
Rom 8:11
if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
1Cor 2(All)
1 John 2:27
the anointing which ye have received of him abideth [in you, and ye need not that any man teach you]: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

[To Him] be the glory
Amen.
---char on 7/8/11


Where in the Bible is Jesus called Jesus in Heaven?
---David on 7/8/11




Bet-[b] "In" pictograph is a "House"[tabernacle] The first letter of the Hebrew bible is a "bet"[b] not "aleph"[a].God was silent until He spoke. [His Word came from within Him]."Bet" signifies "the power" (ruach) used in speaking forth.
Aleph[A] represent Gods [unspeakable] Glory which Forever procedes all things Is 44:6, Rev 22:12

God's intention of abiding within the realm of His creation.

Aleph-bet [ab]
abba is the Word for Father
Who is Master of the House"
Aleph is Father
Bet His Son
Abba Father who masters over His Children as [His Word] dwells [within] as Lord.
Yehovah's Word "In" flesh [Y'sha] Jn1:1-15
---char on 7/8/11


John 5:39
Search the scriptures, for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me...

God confirms [His Word]
Humble-ask for wisdom-He will teach. 1Cor 2
This means acknowledging we are just man.Proverb 1 [all]
vs7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
Gen 1:1 In beginning[bereshiyt]Elohiym bara [et]...
[et] is an untranslatable word used to indicate [a definite direct object is next]
[et] is spelled -Aleph-Tav, an abbreviation for the Aleph-Bet.[Inbeginning Elohiym formed Aleph-Bet]. Knowing [All things] knew His Word [written] would be for a witness for [adm-mankind].God is complete without err.
Ex 17:14,Deut 17:18,Jer 22:30
---char on 7/8/11


How can 'The Word of God' at Revelation 19 be 'Yehovah's Word in flesh'?- Char 7/8/11.

Agreed 'The Word of God' at Rev.19 is Jesus Christ. But this is Christ after his resurrection back to heaven as a spirit being, no longer flesh. Jesus is 'The Word of God' before coming to earth (Jo.1:1) and again as a spirit being back in heaven alongside his Father Jehovah (Rev.19:13).

Jesus is not 'God the Word', but 'The Word OF God'.

Apostle John, the one used to write Revelation said previously, 'the Word was with God'- John 1:1. Christ continues to be 'with God' as His 'Word' during his heavenly existence and at Armageddon when Jesus and Jehovah come to execute Judgment on Satan's system- Re.19:11-21.
---David8318 on 7/8/11


Char you have a unique style which I sometimes find hard to follow. However you succinctly write truth. These last two blogs are powerful.

"Michael is never referred to as King of Kings-Lord of Lords Rev17:14" Such a simple truth.

Thank you.

---Warwick on 7/8/11


No arguement here francis,

The [Word of God] came out of His mouth whenever He spoke.
Defined as Y'shua not michael, down to each letter.

I encourage you to study [His Word]....down to each letter, idioms and Hebrew style of writing.
This is a choice that can not and will not be forced.
God has given us that option.
Do not take my word for this.

One God-different dimension.
Yehovah's Word In flesh--Y'shua Jn1:1-15

No other.
//"Behold [my hands] and [my feet], that it is [I myself]: handle me, and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have." Lk 24:39

God's Word is truth.
If in-fact was michael--
Here he would have HAD to declare it...
he didn't.
---char on 7/8/11


is there so much distortion of the truth today in the world that it seems everyone has a different truth they proclaim?
---tom2 on 7/8/11


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Michael is never referred to as King of Kings-Lord of Lords Rev17:14

Is46:10
[Declaring the end from the beginning], and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Mk 13:23
But take ye heed: behold, I have [foretold you All things].

God has given us [His Word] down to each letter--defining [His Word] to follow ending right back to Him.
[ALL]
Jn 16:23
And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall
[ask the Father in my name]:
[he will give it you].
[in my name,] [I will do it].
[in my name,] [that will I do], that the Father may be glorified [in the Son].
Jn14:13,Jn14:14
---char on 7/8/11


Deuteronomy 6:4 The LORD our God [is] one LORD:
1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Surely many have seen the spirit:( dove, tongues of fire)
Surely many have seen the word/Jesus
the one who has never been seen is the FATHER.

Therefore we conclude that the Lord which was seen in the OT is not the spirit ( because of the forms which he takes) but rather Jesus the Lord.


---char on 7/7/11 Jesus is also referred to as A prince:
Isaiah 9:6 The Prince of Peace.
Acts 3:15 the Prince of life,
Acts 5:31 a Prince and a Saviour

So that is not a good arguement
---francis on 7/8/11


John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time,

Yet the BIBLE tells us:
Exodus 33:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face
Genesis 32:30 for I have seen God face to face, Judges 13:22 we have seen God.

Several peopel have seen God/ the Lord. ofcourse many did See Jesus on earth.

Reading more about God and jesus:
1 Timothy 6:13 I give thee charge in the sight of God..,
1 Timothy 6:16 whom no man hath seen, nor can see:
1 Corinthians 11:3and the head of Christ is God.


John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father,

So when the bible says no man have seen GOD, it measn no man have seen THE FATHER

Who then did Moses and all the rest see who is God/ The Lord? 1 John 5:7
---Francis on 7/8/11


I must say that I am always both blessed and challenged by the posts of The Seg and char.
You bring out the Berean in me.
Thank you and bless you both.
---micha9344 on 7/8/11


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Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify, and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me. Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father?

Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.

I stand here telling you the truth.
But youre blind!
---TheSeg on 7/8/11


David, again, If I am lying show me where?

I wrote "David my statements about blood transfusions, vaccinations, sexual behaviour, organ transplants etc came from WTS literature. Are you saying these things were not written where I have said they were?"

The information I gave shows an organization which introduces prohibitions saying this is what God's word commands, then recinds the prohibitions. This concerns vaccinations and organ transplants, once prohibited because of God's word. Now allowed.

Did God's word change?

It also exposes that The Watchtower Society intrudes into the bedrooms of its subjects! What a despotic, evil cultic horror it is!

Who is lying David?
---Warwick on 7/8/11


Warwick, you lie about the true identity of Jesus Christ the Son of God, and you lie about the Sovereignty of Jehovah God.

You lie about the Bible, inserting words at John 17:11 and John 14:14, as I've pointed out before- words that you and trinitarian translators scandalously use to corrupt Jesus' teachings.

So it does not come as a supprise to me and no doubt others reading these posts why such filthy tactics employed by yourself are directed to a peaceful group of individuals such as Jehovah's Witnesses who expose the likes of you as a decrepit individual who is beneath contempt.
---David8318 on 7/7/11


Ruben- I'm not assuming anything. 1 Thess.4:16 clearly identifies the Lord Jesus as the one with a (or the) voice of an archangel.

As there is only one archangel, there is no real difficulty in concluding that Jesus is the archangel Michael. Michael meaning- 'Who is like God'. Only Jesus is 'like God' being the 'image of the invisible God' - Colossians 1.

The issue is difficult for trinitarians to swallow of course because in their view Jesus is Almighty God, and cannot be an angel, prince or Michael. But no trinitarian has yet to show me where scripture identifies Jesus as the Almighty God Jehovah.

Francis has drawn further prophetic comparisons which are interesting and reinforce the truth that Jesus is the archangel.
---David8318 on 7/7/11


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Do I have this right?

Jesus Christ is not the embodiment of the Father, but just an angel, an archangel.
And only the father is God? Right!

The Holy Ghost is what? Please tell me. I just got to know.


Job_1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Now, Satan regular angel, right?
And the sons of God, whats that.

Dan_10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, and I remained there with the kings of

He meant to say prince, right.

Heb 1:8?
Heb 1:13 Michael, right.
Wow man.
---TheSeg on 7/7/11


Although Daniel calls Michael a great prince,

Jesus is referred to as the "King of Kings" and the "Lord of Lords" (Rev 19:16). There is a qualitative difference between a prince, and "the" King of Kings. This actually argues against the possibility of them being the same individual.
Actually, since Michael, who is identified as an archangel in the New Testament is called a prince, in Daniel, then it infers right off that there are [others of comparable rank].
Rev 19:16,17 reveals that while the King of Kings [is descending], John says I also saw an angel [standing in the sun], and he cried out with a loud voice. At Christs return, the angel speaking with a loud voice, is not Christ.
---char on 7/7/11


My concern about Michael claimed by this tradition ...being claimed,


Jesus, after having received the [name above every name], has casually discarded it in favor of "a" return to the name Michael, the angel?
The name of Jesus is the name above every other. We are told that there is No other name under heaven by which we must be saved (Acts 4:12), we are to preach in his name (Acts 9:27,28), the church baptized in his name (Acts 2,38).
There is only One Word that is truth.

The Word of God
Aleph to Tav.
---char on 7/7/11


willa5568 VALID question. Give me two or three post please:

Acts 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with THE ANGEL which spake to him in the mount Sina..,

Who exactly was this angel who spoke to Moses in Sina, and gave him the " lively oracles?" Was a a created being or was it God/ the Lord himself?

Exodus 34:28 he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights, Exodus 34:29 And it came to pass, when Moses came down from mount Sinai..

So we see that Moses was with The Lord himself, yet the NT says it was the Angel. So we MUST agree that the NT also refers to THE LORD as an Angel.

your question is: " How do we know it was Jesus?"
---francis on 7/7/11


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As regards Daniel 10 and 12 where does it explicitly give any reference to Jesus Christ?

In JW theology Jesus is not God but in his prehuman state was Michael "chief prince," the supreme created being.

If this is so then why in Daniel 10:3 is Michael just "one of the chief princes." He obviously cannot be the supreme created being.

Consider Hebrews 1:5,6 if Jesus is Michael the angel why does God say "..For to which of the angels did God ever say "You are my Son..." and "Let all God's angels worship him."

This section sets Jesus above and apart from any angel, as He is God the Son, the uncreated Creator of all things.
---Warwick on 7/7/11


David you accused me of lying. I gave you the opportunity to show where.

I wrote "David my statements about blood transfusions, vaccinations, sexual behaviour, organ transplants etc came from WTS literature. Are you saying these things were not written where I have said they were?"

The information I gave shows an organization which introduces prohibitions saying this is what God's word commands, then recinds the prohibitions. This concerns vaccinations and organ transplants, once prohibited because of God's word. Now allowed.

Did God's word change?

It also exposes that The Watchtower Society intrudes into the bedrooms of its subjects! What a despotic, evil cultic horror it is!

Who is lying David?
---Warwick on 7/7/11


1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of THE archangel, and the dead in Christ shall rise first: SAME AS:
John 5:28 the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth, they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life, and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
AND
Daniel 12:1 at that time shall Michael stand up, And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

No coincidence that whatever Michael the Archangel is prophecied to Do is done by Jesus
---francis on 7/7/11


I agree God is the Father in the NT, but my question is where does it say Jesus is the Angel of YHWH? I am not saying he was or wasn't in my arguement, but other than implication, like this says this so that means it must be him, I find no evidence that says he is. If he is an angel/messenger of the LORD, then that exempts him from being the LORD because he is "of" the Lord, meaning he belongs to,originates from Him. The angel is his not is him.
---willa5568 on 7/7/11


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"God Himself declares God Almighty...
How?----with His Word.

If God didn't speak nothing would have been said.

How does He Speak?
With [His Word]."

Amen Char!
---christina on 7/7/11


---willa5568 on 7/7/11
I understand your agruement. And it would be very valid IF the bible was not redeundant.
John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

1 Corinthians 11:3 the head of Christ is God.

It does not take much wisdon to see that God in these passages mean THE FATHER.
No man have seen THE FATHER.
Which mean that the Lord or God which is seen in the OT ( the anegl of the lord) is Jesus
---francis on 7/7/11


//There is nothing in scripture that says Jesus is Almighty God- only false preconceived presumption.---David8318 on 7/7/11///

Strongly disagree with this statement and encourage others not to take my word or any other -but to studing the Word [orginal] for themselve.
God knew His Word would be twisted [lamed] and designed each letter for clarity.


God Himself declares God Almighty...
How?----with His Word.

If God didn't speak nothing would have been said.

How does He Speak?
With [His Word].

Taught and defined down to each letter.

Written from aleph to tav.
One God-different dimension.
Yehovah's Word In flesh--Y'shua Jn1:1-15
---char on 7/7/11


Francis,

The verses used saying Jesus is the only one who has seen God can be seen in a different way. The Greek word used for see in these verse can mean "see with the eye" or also "see with the mind, perceive to know", so that is debatable. But what I am saying is no one man but Jesus(for the sake of argument) has seen God which Jesus was without human flesh before the incarnation. How did they see God the Son and live?

David,

For to which of the angels did God ever say, You are my Son,
today I have begotten you?--Heb. 1:5

Considering Micheal, though an Arch, is an angel, this and the prior verse disagree.
---willa5568 on 7/7/11


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1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of THE archangel, and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

FACTS:
1: The Lord himself is the one shouting
2: It is the voice of THE ( not an) Archangel

SAME AS:
John 5:28 the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth, they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life, and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

AND
Daniel 12:1 at that time shall Michael stand up, Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
---francis on 7/7/11


Heb 1:4-5,8 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?...But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Hebrews 1:13-14 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
---micha9344 on 7/7/11


"Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have." Lk 24:39

God's Word speaks truth.

If the Word of God in flesh was in fact michael--
Here he would have HAD to declare it...
He didn't.

Immanuel-God with us
Witnessed Aleph to Tav.
---char on 7/7/11


"'For the Lord himself shall come down from heaven with commandment and with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead who are in Christ shall rise first.'- 1 Thess.4:16."
This is very simply explained. Ever hear anyone say that so and so has the voice of an angel? Does that make that person an angel? Neither does describing the "Lords voice as an archangel", make the Lord an arch angel. Also, the use of "an" archangel does not specify which arch angel. it's merely descriptive, as is trumpet, etc
---christina on 7/7/11


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---willa5568 on 7/7/11 I understand what you are saying

Here is the answer:
The bible especially the NT does not ALWAYS use the word God to refer to Jesus ( although Jesus is God) God is used to refer to THE FATHER

1 Corinthians 11:3 the head of Christ is God.

John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].

So the person that we seen as God throughout the OT is JESUS
---francis on 7/7/11


Not convinced of the [Trinity-God-Jesus-Michael].
God's Word does not define Michael as [god with us] or creator.


Is 44:24 This is what the LORD says--your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the LORD, who has made all things,

[who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself]

No where is it written Michael is the Word of God.

This is the Wrong path---different instructions and another word.
Only the Word of God, down to each letter followed brings you back to Him.

God has given us HIS Word down to [each letter] for this very reason---

The Word of God come [out of His mouth].
Aleph to Tav
---char on 7/7/11


1 Thessalonians 4:16 says what it says. Regarding the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ, the Bible says,

'For the Lord himself shall come down from heaven with commandment and with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead who are in Christ shall rise first.'- 1 Thess.4:16. (Douay)

Archangel is scripturally never in the plural- thus there is only one archangel. The archangel Michael is Jesus Christ.

At Daniel 12:1, 'Michael will stand up, the GREAT PRINCE who is standing in behalf of the sons of your people.'

Regarding God's son, Isaiah said 'princely power is on his shoulder... PRINCE of Peace'- Is.9:6.

Jesus Christ- Michael, archangel, Prince, Son of God. There is only one.
---David8318 on 7/7/11


I am using willa same agrument:)
---Ruben on 7/7/11
Willa's arguement, mind you is not a very good one. Clearly the bible uses the phrase " angel of God / the lord" interchanable with THE LORD. Her arguement is not against the interchgange of words/ phrases, but against the fact that this " angel of the lord who is also called The Lord is jesus.

let me just ask for clearity:
are you saying that the "Angel of the Lord" is not THE LORD, or are you saying that is it not Jesus?
---Francis on 7/7/11


Francis,

What I am saying is both willa and David both say we are assuming that Jesus is God on a scripture verse but yet they also do the say thing about Jesus being Michael the angel.
---Ruben on 7/7/11


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Francis,

You have shown no where that it says Jesus is the angel of the Lord, but rather say because it says the angel of the LORD and is used interchangeably with the LORD that means it is Jesus, that is assumption/opinion not proof. If scripture says no man has seen/gazed upon God at ANY time then how can Jesus, whom you believe to be God, before his incarnation be seen? If YHWH is three persons which includes Jesus how did men see him and not die as He told Moses? Why could it not be the Father then since you say God can now be seen? One who represents God speaks as and for God just as Moses was God to Pharaoh since he spoke for God.
---willa5568 on 7/7/11


Exodus 13:21 THE LORD went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, and by night in a pillar of fire,

Exodus 14:19 THE ANGEL OF GOD, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them, and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them:

Acts 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with THE ANGEL ...

Exodus 34:1 The LORD said unto Moses,
Exodus 34:2 be ready in the morning, and come up in the morning unto mount Sinai,Exodus 34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights

Clearly the Angel of God is the Lord jesus, and He is the Cheif of all angels( ARCHANGEL)

And Is not Jesus like the Father/ God? ( MICHAEL=who is like God)
---francis on 7/7/11


I am using willa same agrument:)
---Ruben on 7/7/11
Willa's arguement, mind you is not a very good one. Clearly the bible uses the phrase " angel of God / the lord" interchanable with THE LORD. Her arguement is not against the interchgange of words/ phrases, but against the fact that this " angel of the lord who is also called The Lord is jesus. Is that also your arguements?

let me just ask for clearity:
are you saying that the "Angel of the Lord" is not THE LORD, or are you saying that is it not Jesus?
---Francis on 7/7/11


David8318 * 'For the Lord himself shall come down from heaven with commandment and with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead who are in Christ shall rise first.'- 1 Thess.4:16. (Douay)

Jesus is the 'archangel' with the voice of an archangel performing the first resurrection.

You assume it to be Jesus. There is no scripture that says it is Jesus. If you show me where it says the Angel of the Lord is Jesus, I will believe it. If all you have is assumptions that because of this or that, then that is not valid evidence but and opinion.
---willa5568 on 7/6/11

I am using willa same agrument:)
---Ruben on 7/7/11


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"How can anyone debate with you...your Scripture is not Scripture?" Mark_V

Mark, I have seldom, if ever, cited the NWT in any CN doctrinal discussion for over three years. And to be clear, I like the NWT. But the scriptural argument that Witnesses make about various topics is not based on their translation but on the biblical languages- Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek.

It was you who disparaged the NWT's question mark at John 20:28,29, suggesting that it was some sort of trick. And yet I've provided at least seven other translations (including the ESV, NASB and the Amplified Bible) that have translated the Greek text in the very same way....with the 'tricky' question mark.

Was you criticism fair?
---scott on 7/7/11


David 2: The witnesses not only added a word but change the whole context with words not in Scripture and took away words that are. If there is a Bible that is corrupt to the core it is the NWT. Oh, they use other Bibles to proof some things in Scripture that are similar to theirs but the corruption of Scripture is found all through the NWT. How can anyone debate with you concerning Scripture since your Scripture is not Scripture? So all we can do is hear your comments, and some others who follow a corrupt Bible.
---Mark_V. on 7/7/11


David, we know through Scripture Jesus Christ, the Son is the Redeemer. In Isa. 63:9 "In all their affliction He was afflicted, and the Angel of His presence saved them, In His love and in His pity He redeemed them and He bore them a carried them all the days of Old" He is the Theophanies of the Old T. The Son manifest Himself as "The angel of the Lord" as the (Angel of Jehovah" and as a man. He is not a created angel but a manifestation of one. Theophanies in the Greek refers specifically to Christ in the Bible. (Gen. 16:7-13, 21:17, 22:11-18, 24:7, 40, 31:11, 32:24-32, Hosea 12:4, Gen. 48:15,16, Exo. 3:2, Acts 7:30-35, Exo. 13:21, and many more.
Now compare to what the NWT says. Not even close.
---Mark_V. on 7/7/11


David, I pointed out that The watchtower magazine says "Michael was the name of Jesus Christ before he left heaven and after his return."

I asked you "David where is Jesus called Michael the Archangel in Scripture?"

You replied: "For the Lord himself shall come down from heaven with commandment and with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead who are in Christ shall rise first."- 1 Thess.4:16. (Douay)

This does not say Jesus is any angel, let alone Michael the archangel.



---Warwick on 7/7/11


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'For the Lord himself shall come down from heaven with commandment and with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead who are in Christ shall rise first.'- 1 Thess.4:16. (Douay)

Jesus is the 'archangel' with the voice of an archangel performing the first resurrection.

Trinitarians are yet to show where Jesus is called Jehovah God Almighty. There is nothing in scripture that says Jesus is Almighty God- only false preconceived presumption.

Jesus is the 'firstborn of all creation' and the 'archangel'.
---David8318 on 7/7/11


No.
Michael is Michael.
Immanuel is Immanuel.
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel,[which being interpreted is, God with us.]
Matt 1:22-24
[which being interpreted is, God with us.]

So there is [no mistake] it is already interpreted for us.

Y'sh a- God rescues- By His Word-Aleph to Tav.
Is 46:10,Is 55:11,

[ALL]
Jn 16:23
And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall
[ask the Father in my name]:
[he will give it you].
[in my name,] [I will do it].
[in my name,] [that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son].
Jn14:13,Jn14:14

One God-different dimension
---char on 7/7/11


The word translated "angel" in both the Hebrew of the OT (malak) and the Greek of the NT (angelos) have the same meaning - "a messenger". Jesus did indeed act as a messenger when he appeared to Saul.

Without question, Jesus is the head of (or arch of) the angels.

Jesus is not a created being. He is God, and in fact is the God of the OT as well as the NT. As God, He is the only one who has the power to raise all the righteous dead with His voice - the voice of the Archangel (1 Th 4:16). No created angel has that power.
---jerry6593 on 7/7/11


:
Exodus 13:21 And THE LORD went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, , and by night in a pillar of fire,

Exodus 14:19 And the THE ANGEL OF GOD, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them, and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them:

Sometimes the Bible refers to Him as THE LORD, Sometimes it is THE ANGEL of THE LORD,

Acts 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with THE ANGEL ...

Well who was it that spoke to Moses in the mount:
Exodus 34:1 And the LORD said unto Moses,
Exodus 34:2 be ready in the morning, and come up in the morning unto mount Sinai,Exodus 34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights
---Francis on 7/7/11


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No, Jesus is the Creator, and created the angels.
---Eloy on 7/7/11


Francis,

You assume it to be Jesus. There is no scripture that says it is Jesus. If you show me where it says the Angel of the Lord is Jesus, I will believe it. If all you have is assumptions that because of this or that, then that is not valid evidence but and opinion.
---willa5568 on 7/6/11


---StrongAxe on 7/6/11
Very good post. That is the problem many are having. Clearly the Angel of The Lord/ God is the Lord himself. But that does not mean that he is The Father. (the word God is reserved mainly for the Father)1 Corinthians 11:3 and the head of Christ is God.

But Jesus being part of the Godhead / trinity is also God. Jesus, the Angel of God is also the greatest messenger sent from The Father. Jesus is also the cheif of all the created being / ministering spirits which we call angels.

So Jesus, the angel of the Lord is not a Mere or created spirit/ angel as you say. he is also God.

Only ONE angel is called the ARCHANGEL and that is Michael.
All prophecies concerning Michael is fulfilled by Jesus
---Francis on 7/6/11


francis:

The scriptures you quoted, if interpreted the way you say, don't suggest that Jesus is a mere angel (and thus inferior to God) - they suggest that God himself is an angel.

There is no mention in Genesis that the "God" who spoke to Moses on Sinai was in any way different from the "God" who did everything else in Genesis. If this "God" was merely an angel (i.e. messenger), who was he a messenger for?
---StrongAxe on 7/6/11


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CONSIDER:
Exodus 13:21 And THE LORD went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way, and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light, to go by day and night:
Exodus 14:19 And the THE ANGEL OF GOD, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them, and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them:

DID THE LORD TAKE SHIFTS WITH AN ANGEL OR IS the Angel of God and THE LORD one and the same: JESUS

For those who know, This Angel of God and The Lord Jesus are one and the same.

So why is it hard to accept that this Angel of God/ the Lord is the CHEIF OF ALL ANGELS?
---francis on 7/6/11


David where is Jesus called Michael the Archangel in Scripture?

The watchtower magazine says "Michael was the name of Jesus Christ before he left heaven and after his return."

Where does Scripture call Jesus Michael?
Where does Jesus call Himself Michael?
When Jesus asked His apostles "Who do you say I am" Luke 9:18 did they reply-Michael the archangel?
In John 10:25-33 Jesus spoke of "my Father" 3 times and said "I and the Father are one." For this blasphemy did they say-you being a mere man call youself an angel?
You know they didn't they said He was calling Himself God.

They saw the obvious but you avoid it.

---Warwick on 7/6/11


---willa5568 on 7/6/11
You are wrong. Understand I cannot teach the whole thing in 125 word blog. But consider this for example:
Acts 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with THE ANGEL which spake to him in the mount Sina,
so WHO is the ANGEL which Moses spoke to in the mountain?
Deuteronomy 34:10 And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face,
Exodus 25:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,


So it was THE LORD.
---francis on 7/6/11


Having the prefix 'arch' indicates that there is only one archangel. 'Arch' meaning 'chief' or 'principal'.

Thus for many, Jesus is the 'archangel'.
---David8318 on 7/6/11


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Francis,

It never says or is referenced in scripture that the angel of the Lord is Jesus nor Michael for that matter. That is tradition and their is no scriptural proof, only "it has to be". If I am wrong prove where it says Jesus is the angel of the Lord with scripture not assumption and I will accept it.

I asked the question so I'll leave the rest to everyone else.

Gods peace
---willa5568 on 7/6/11


Bill_willa6989,
Christan
Christina
StrongAxe
aka
willa5568
Cluny
doraa9737
and Leslie
Is " The Angel of God/ Angel of the Lord" in the OT books is the same as JESUS SOMETIMES?
---francis on 7/6/11


In Hebrews chapter one the writer makes it clear that Jesus is God's Son and not an angel. Also, in Jude verse nine it says "Michael the archangel" rebuked Satan while they were disputing about the body of Moses. It does not say "Jesus the archangel" or "Jesus" contended with Satan, even now that it could say it was Jesus. So, I can see the Michael and Jesus are not the same.

If "the angel of the LORD" ever means Jesus, an "angel" can mean one who gives a message. The Son of God does give God's message. Also, Jesus' "name is called the Word of God", but I think we can understand this does not mean Jesus is a paper and ink bible (c:
---Bill_willa6989 on 7/6/11


So let me ask the questions that MUST be asked:

1: How many here believe that " the Angel of god/ Angel of the Lord" in the OT books is the same as JESUS SOMETIMES?

2: If you believe that the Angel of God/ the Lord is the same as Jesus, do you believe that he is, or is not a created being?
---Francis on 7/6/11


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here are SOME of the problem with many of these posts thus far.

1: MOST if not all christians believe that " The Angel of God/ angel of the Lord" in the books of the OT is the very same Jesus.
They have no issues with that.
2: None of them believe that "The Angel of the lord/ God" who is Jesus is a created being.
3: So if 'The Angel of the Lord/ God" is not a created being, then an angel does not have to be a created being.
---Francis on 7/6/11


willa5568, you are right that you did not command anyone to respond. And I ask for your forgiveness in the way I replied, but I do hope you know where I am coming from.
---christan on 7/6/11


"There's nothing secret about this, christina." Hi Cluny, How are you? I think you have me confused with Christan, see previous posts. I agree. God bless you
---Christina on 7/6/11


The Jehovah's Witnesses believe this. They do so because they also believe that Jesus is NOT God himself, but merely "a god".
---StrongAxe on 7/5/11


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christian, i see no problem with this question. and, i do not understand your use of that verse.

i understand that you must be spiritual to see spirit, but for those that are searching, they only see posts that are not founded in witness. don't they have a right to see the truth?

we are told that there are secrets revealed, but are we to hide the light under a basket when they are revealed?
---aka on 7/5/11


Christan,

thank you for you kind words.

I did not intend to post just ask a question. My purpose is to find out why this is believed from those who do and not second hand. If that offends you, forgive me, but I have not commanded anyone to respond.
---willa5568 on 7/5/11


There's nothing secret about this, christina.

It's standard Christian teaching since the days of the Apostles that the Son is of the same nature as the Father--that is fully God--and created the Archangel Michael.

Are you saying you've never heard sound doctrine before?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/5/11


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