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What Are False Teachers Doing

Has anyone other than myself noticed T.D. Jakes, and those like him don't preach from the Bible, but they do what is written in Colossians 2:8? Also, if they do use scripture, they do what is written Romans 1:25.

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 ---Rob on 7/10/11
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Warwick,
Thomas said: "My Lord and my God!"

Jesus said: (After the resurrection):

"The one who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God...and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down from my God out of heaven..." Rev 3:12
---scott on 7/17/11


Warwick,

Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father....For he(God the Father) has put everything in subjection under his feet...this does not include the one who put everything in subjection to him...when all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will be subjected...to him, so that God may be all in all>1Corinthians 15:24-28

Jesus will be subjected to the Father, he will be less than God, not equal, Gods subject that God may be all in all. The Father is God alone(Just a few:Romans 15:6, 1Corinthians 8:6, Ephesians 4:6, John 20:17(which Jesus told Mary to tell Thomas too!)

No need to create who Jesus is, it's plain. Also notice John 13:3, fits better with Arianism if he was pre-existent
---willa5568 on 7/17/11


Willa, Luke 1:37 "For nothing is impossible with God."

Jeremiah 32:17 "Ah Lord GOD! Behold, You have made the heavens and the earth by Your great power and by Your outstretched arm! Nothing is too difficult for You."

John 20:28 clearly shows Jesus it God. Thomas having doubted Jesus rose in the flesh, saw Him, touched Him and spoke with Him then exclaimed "My Lord and my God!" Thomas called Jesus 'The God' Gk. Ho Theos. And Jesus accepted this!

As you have the wrong understanding of who God the Son is, your understanding of other Scriptures is distorted.

Nothing is too difficult for God.
---Warwick on 7/17/11


Scott,

1Timothy 6 is speaking of the Father(God). Jesus is mentioned but they are separate persons making only one fitting that description. And it seems from other blogs we both agree this is the Fathers traits not Jesus', who is not God. I do agree with the point you make though.

This is not directed to you Scott.Another thing to notice is it says flesh and BONE, not blood. Though visible and able to be touched he could also vanish from sight, very much like the angels as he himself said(Matt. 22:30, Mark 12:25)
---willa5568 on 7/17/11


Warwick,

Seriously, a man in flesh and blood could walk through a wall? Peter walked on water to, can he walk through walls? 1John 4:2 combats Gnostic teaching saying he only appeared to be man, not flesh and blood.

"The predicate participle describes Jesus as already come in the flesh (his actual humanity, not a phantom body as the Docetic Gnostics held"(Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament),

"In John's day, the issue was about if Jesus had truly come in a real body of flesh and blood"(Gusik, David Gusiks Commentary on The Whole Bible)

"This statement would be directed against some form of Docetism, the view that Christ was a spirit who only seemed to be a true man." (Boice)
---willa5568 on 7/17/11




Warwick,

I'll repost these simple questions because surely you've missed them and no doubt will be eager to answer!

Jesus said (John 4:21-24) "God is spirit, and [we] must worship in spirit and truth." (WEB)

And of course the Holy Spirit is...well...Spirit.

How exactly, then, is one of the three persons in the triune God flesh and blood?

Is the Father also flesh and blood now? If so, when did this occur?

Is the Holy Spirit no longer...well..spirit? If so when did this occur?

In the Trinity doctrine, the son is only one part of the triune. The other two 'persons' are spirits...how does this work exactly?

Did this mystery just get even more mysterious?
---scott on 7/17/11


Warwick,

What is your response? Or are just hoping that this thread will soon close?

"Our Lord Jesus Christ...who dwells in unapproachable light, whom not one of men has seen or can see ." 1 Timothy 6:14-16

Did Christ's disciples not see his physical body before his death? And did they not see what at least appeared like a physical body at times after his resurrection?

How is it that now in heaven he's in a 'form' that no man has seen?
---scott on 7/17/11


Warwick,

"A spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have."

Don't forget that angels have materialized in order to be seen by men, they ate, and some even married and fathered children! (Gen. 6:4, 19:1-3)

So were the angels with Lot flesh and blood ontologically or permanently? Or were they spirit creatures that materialized for some purpose?

"Speaking of those who deny Jesus rose in the flesh 1 John 4:2,3 says ..."that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh..." Warwick

That's some serious scripture twisting. The verse refers to Jesus 'Coming in the flesh'. Not rising.

The question is not about Jesus coming in the flesh but going in the flesh!
---scott on 7/17/11


Scott which part of Luke 24:39 do you not understand? "See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself, touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have."

Do you suggest Jesus was wrong, or lying, or didn't know?

Why would He say he was flesh and bones if He wasn't? Embarassed maybe?

Speaking of those who deny Jesus rose in the flesh 1 John 4:2,3 says "By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God, this is the spirit of the antichrist,..."
---Warwick on 7/17/11


Willa, Jesus stood among them and asked that they touch Him to see He was 'flesh and bones.' This means that He, who does not lie, was just that, flesh and bones.

To say otherwise is to deny that He came in the flesh. And as you know 1 John 4:3 says those who deny He came in the flesh are the antiChrist!

How could Jesus walk through walls? By the same supernatural power by which He walked upon water, turned water into vintaged wine, gave sight to the blind, and fed the 5,000!
---Warwick on 7/17/11




Scott in the past you have given me Scriptures which make my point-you do it again. 1 Timothy 6:14-16 illustrates Jesus is fully God and fully man.

As you can see Luke 24:39 most clearly says He is 'flesh and bones' i.e. human. He was in His preresurrection life on earth, and obviously still so in His resurrected body.

I Timothy 6:14-16, calls God King of Kings and Lord of Lords the exact appelation of Jesus in Revelation 19:16! Jesus is the visible expression of the invisible God as Colossians 1:15,19 says. He is Immanuel, God dwelling with us as John 1:14 says.

It would be impossible to relate to Him, walk with Him and talk with Him if we could not see Him!
---Warwick on 7/17/11


Marc, I'm not tied in knots. It's what the Bible teaches as testified by both apostles Peter (1 Pe.3:18) and Paul (1 Cor.15:45).

The Bible teaches spirit creatures can put on bodies of flesh and bone- Gen.6:4 and 19:1-3. They even sat and ate with Lot. Jesus as a spirit person had the same ability. It's not my teaching- it's there in the Bible.

Your understanding creates unanswerable questions as identified by scott below.

You believe Jesus is flesh and bone in heaven? So you do not believe your 'God' is a spirit? How do you reconcile your belief with John 4:24? How do you account for Jesus entering through locked doors? Jesus said he 'gave his body' on our behalf- but you believe Jesus has now taken it back- Luke 22:19.
---David8318 on 7/17/11


David, I also believe Witnesses are sincere people, and polite. But believe their foundation was build on stones. The truth is that the movement of the witnesses started as another rebellion against conventional Christianity in the mind of Charles T. Russel. And like most who started a movement it is always because of rebellion against what Scripture teaches. He was indoctrinated by Ellen White writings. At the age of 17 he became by his own admission a "Skeptic" and joined a group called Second Adventists. He was married and separate and in 1913 Mrs Rusell sued for devorce on the grounds of "his conceit, egotism, domination and improper conduct in relation to other women." From the beginning it was due to fail in the Truth.
---Mark_V. on 7/17/11


I agree scott, the mystery-trinity has become more mysterious. I find it extraordinary that many here believe Jesus was resurrected as a human being, given the fact that 'flesh and blood cannot inherit God's Kingdom'- 1 Cor.15:50.

I thought trinitarians believed Jesus was God. Jesus said 'God is a spirit'- Jo.4:24. So do trinitarians believe Jesus is 'flesh and bone' or 'a spirit'?

It's clear Jesus' post resurrection appearances were in materialised bodies that were not recognisable to his followers. Only when he began to speak to them did they realise it was Jesus: Mary thought he was the gardener- Jo.20:15. The disciples on their way to Emmaus recognised Jesus after he began to speak to them, then he 'disappeared'- Luke 24:15-31.
---David8318 on 7/17/11


John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
John 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.
-It seems like Jesus knew what a spirit was...
---micha9344 on 7/16/11


Warwick,

Jesus said regarding the Father (John 4:21-24) that "God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth." (WEB)

And of course the Holy Spirit is...well...Spirit.

How exactly, then, is one of the three persons in the triune God flesh and blood?

Is the Father also flesh and blood now? If so, when did this occur?

Is the Holy Spirit no longer...well..spirit? If so when did this occur?

In the Trinity doctrine, the son is only one part of the triune. The other two 'persons' are spirits...how does this work exactly?

Did this mystery just get even more mysterious?
---scott on 7/16/11


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"Our Lord Jesus Christ...who dwells in unapproachable light, whom not one of men has seen or can see ." 1 Timothy 6:14-16

Did Christ's disciples not see his physical body before his death? And did they not see what at least appeared like a physical body at times after his resurrection?

How is it that now in heaven he's in a 'form' that no man has seen?
---scott on 7/17/11


This idea that the Spiritual body cannot be touched and is not real does not come from the Bible.

The Bible teaches the resurrection from the dead. Not a spirit floating around like some sort of ghost. JESUS was physically raised from the grave. He ate sat with friends made food for others.
---Samuel on 7/16/11


Warwick,

I just wrote what scripture says. Him coming in the flesh is to counter Gnostic teaching
which said he was not flesh and blood at all but only appeared to be. Do some study about Gnosticism and you will see for yourself. Also I said he was raised a spiritual body, if not explain how he could walk through walls. I did not say he was not flesh and blood either saying the two were connected. Nor did I say he was a spirit. I don't think you understood what I said at all. Like I said, I just used scripture to explain, the natural body dies the spiritual body doesn't nor is it limited like the natural body.
---willa5568 on 7/16/11


David,

The scripture clearly states Jesus bodily resurrected. Jesus says, 'It is I...[because] I've flesh and bones.' All this Jesus temporally acquiring a body is something you've added to support your unbiblical and heretical Gnostic theology.

You've tied yourself in knots by now claiming that for Jesus to prove he resurrected non-physically to the disciples (and us today!) he had to resurrect physically because if he hadn't they (and we) would've thought he hadn't resurrected.

Furthermore, if Christ was only resurrected spiritually and not with a body, then he's misled us, unless you're a Jehovah's Witness who have the spiritual discernment to understand the mysteries of God because they're God's only prophets on earth.
---Marc on 7/16/11


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False teachers were created for a Holy purpose. To deceive. And Paul tells us in 2 Thessolonians 2 verses,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish, because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Only the love of God can keep His people from the deception of Satan through His grace in faith.
---christan on 7/16/11


Willa, Luke 24:39 "See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself, touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have."

Remember this was written post resurrection.

You would contradict Jesus?

See also John 20:20, 27, 1 John 1:1 and 2 John 1:7.

See also 1John 4:2,3 "By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God, this is the spirit of the antichrist,..."

Sadly this speaks of you and your JW counterparts.

Which spirit are you listening to Willa. The spirit of God or the deceiving spirit the antiChrist?
---Warwick on 7/16/11


But someone will ask,How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?...It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.Thus it is written, The first man Adam became a living being, the last Adam became a life-giving spirit>1Corinthians 15:35,44,45

He died in a natural body, which perishable, and was raised a spiritual body, which is imperishable. There is a connection between the two but as we saw with Christ, the spiritual body is not from the dust but from heaven and is very much like a spirit in what it is able to do.
---willa5568 on 7/16/11


Ruben- I agree that 'in the spirit' may not always refer to being a spirit person. But by the same token, you cannot arbitrarily state "in the spirit" means 'by the (Holy Spirit)." Context and sentence structure must always be considered.

In the case of 1 Peter 3:18, in the Greek text the words 'flesh' and 'spirit' are put in contrast to each other, and both are in the dative case. So if a translator uses the rendering 'by the spirit' he should also consistently say 'by the flesh,' or if he uses 'in the flesh' he should also say 'in the spirit'.

Jesus was 'in the flesh'- as a flesh and blood person, and he was 'in the spirit' after his resurrection- as a spirit person.
---David8318 on 7/16/11


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Marc (Warwick) (1)
On a previous thread (heresies) you said:

"Explain why your organisation adds...God's ACTIVE FORCE was moving' at Genesis 1:2 when these words aren't in ANY manuscript?" And that this

"Disingenuously reflect[s] an organisation's heretical theology..." 7/13/11

I responded by citing the lexical meaning of 'ruach' from Strong's, ("WInd, breath"), The Catholic Encyclopedia ("a divine power..."), The New English Bible footnote for Joel 2:32 ("The animating force".), The New Bible Dictionary ("a supernatural power (under God's authority) exerting force in some direction."), etc.

Question:

Continued
---scott on 7/16/11


Marc (Warwick) (2)

Question:

SInce you have claimed that 'adding words "Disingenuously reflect[s] an organisation's heretical theology..." I would like to get your thoughts on Warwick's post on 7/13/11.

There he cited Philippians 2:6,7 with the following rendering:

"Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage..."

With your keen eye toward heretical theology, and examining just the text and grammar alone (a discussion of context is sure to follow) which of the above words is a literal word for word translation of the Greek text?
---scott on 7/16/11


At Luke 24:37-39, the terrified disciples thought Jesus was 'a spirit', an apparition. However, Peter said Jesus had been 'made alive in the spirit'- 1 Pe.3:18, Paul said Jesus had 'become a life giving spirit'- 1 Cor.15:45. Jesus had now become a spirit creature, the form of existence before he came to earth.

As spirit creatures are invisible to human eyes, they are able to put on or materialise a human body to be seen, as at Gen.6:4 and 19:1-3.

Jesus materialised a human body among the disciples in a locked room. A flesh and bone human is unable to walk through solid walls. Spirit creatures however can, Jesus as a spirit creature did, materialised a body and reassured his disciples he wasn't 'a spirit' but had been resurrected.
---David8318 on 7/16/11


Marc, 1 Peter 3:18 has to be taken into context. For a flesh and blood human being, it would be impossible to 'preach to the spirits in prison', the disobedient spirits of Noah's day (imprisoned in Tartarus).

Thus Jesus was 'put to death in the flesh, but being made alive in the spirit.' And as now alive 'in the spirit' he was able to preach to spirits in prison.

This rendering agrees with Paul's statement at 1 Cor.15:45- 'The last Adam (Jesus) became a life-giving spirit.'

1 John 4:2 is not with reference to Jesus' post resurrection existence. Jesus was born in the natural way as a flesh and blood human, & as such had come 'in the flesh'. 1 Jo.4:2 is difficult for trinitarians because they believe Jesus is God.
---David8318 on 7/16/11


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The Watchtower is known for discussing issues of a moral nature and for encouraging its readers to maintain high moral values as outlined in the Bible.

The Watchtower article Warwick vehemently criticizes discussed the moral depravities found in the world, perversions that any right minded person would avoid. Perversions Warwick describes as 'love making techniques'. If Warwick believes those perversions have anything to do with 'love', then I seriously question his moral integrity.

The article in question stated- 'It is certainly not the responsibility of elders or any others in a Christian congregation to search into the private lives of married couples.' Warwick thus continues to lyingly misrepresent JW's and the Watchtower.
---David8318 on 7/16/11


Scott you must have noticed I have addressed my comments to David on quite a few occasions however he has left the building, hit the road, scarpered and vamoosed as far as his lies about me are concerned.

In fact my repeated comments to David are sitting right under yours!

What is the point in continuing to quote Scripture with people who distort Scripture to support predetermined outcomes?

I have ignored his nonsense about John 17:11 and John 14:14 simply because I have answered them before, and before. Dealing with David and yourself is like trying to have a converstaion with a revolving door.

BTW I addressed some comments to you as you chose to buy into the argument.
---Warwick on 7/16/11


Marc, I await with anticipation to see how David wriggles out to the Luke 24:39 quote, you gave.

I cannot imagine how anyone can read this verse and still claim the resurrected Jesus was not "FLESH AND BONES"
---Warwick on 7/16/11


MarkV- I do not believe an angel died for my sins. I also do not believe Jesus Christ was the equal of Satan- I have never said those things.

Jesus Christ was the equal of ADAM- 1 Corinthians 15:45 states, 'The first man Adam became a living soul. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.'

An angel didn't die for me, neither did God. The man Jesus Christ died for my sins and for mankind- 'For if by one man's trespass many died, the undeserved kindness of God and his free gift with the undeserved kindness by the one MAN Jesus Christ abounded much more to many'- Ro.5:15.

Jehovah God stated, 'For I am God and not man'- Hosea 11:9.
---David8318 on 7/15/11


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Warwick,

You're seriously going to complain to me about your conversation with David?

He's a big boy, direct your comments to him.

I don't believe I've seen your response to him about John 17:11 and John 14:14.

It's a fair question. Why do you resort to these weird rants rather than just picking up your bible and proving him wrong...if you can?

Seems so simple, but you undermine any credibility you might otherwise have by taking this, all too familiar, apologetic tack.
---scott on 7/15/11


David, you are back!

Now you can show where I have 'lied' about Scripture and the WTS prohibition of vaccinations and organ transplants!

You have also accused me of being a sexual pervert because of what I wrote about WTS intrusions into JW's bedrooms. You have implied that the WTS forbids only sexual perversions. However you will not spell out what these perversions are. Therefore you either don't know what they are or will not tell us because you know I am right. No matter which is correct, it still means you have lied on both accounts.

Over to you.

BTW do not imagine I am offended or annoyed by the lies you have written. You are a JW and deceit is the norm for you.
---Warwick on 7/15/11


David,

Your selective quoting of Bibles is typical (it needn't be gone into here, but case, gender and prepositional meaning are important) and can be seen to be so by reading other translations in which Peter makes it clear that Jesus was 'made alive By the Spirit by whom he went and preached...'

So, you don't want to listen to a disciple of Peter, Paul and John. OK. Let's listen to Luke: 'Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Handle me and see, FOR A SPIRIT DOES NOT HAVE FLESH AND BONES AS YOU SEE I HAVE.'

Logical conclusion: Jesus was resurrected in the flesh.

'Because many false prophets have gone out into the world...[one who] denies Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God.' (1 John 4:2ff)
---Marc on 7/15/11


1 Peter 3:18 KJV

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

It is clear, according to the rules of English syntax, that the last two phrases ("being put to death... by the Spirit) refer to US, not Jesus.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/15/11


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David8318* 1 Peter 3:18 is clear. Peter under inspiration wrote that Jesus was 'made alive in the Spirit'.

The word 'in the spirit is use many times in scripture (Jhn 11:33, Acts 20:22, Rom 8:9, Gal 5:25, eph 6:180)it does not refer to being a spirit. Compare 1 Pt 3:18 to Romans 8:11 .." The Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead", so "in the spirit" means 'by the (Holy Spirit)." God could have made it very clear by inspiring Peter to write "made alive as a spirit ".

David8318* Jesus was not raised as a physical human being.

" Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up...But he spoke of the temple of his body.(Jhn 2:19-21)




---Ruben on 7/15/11


Scott, because I pointed out David's Biblical errors and distortions he called me a liar.

I pointed out some evil of the WTS i.e. forbidding life-saving vaccinations and organ transplants, and David accused me of employing "filthy tactics," describing me as "a decrepit individual...beneath contempt." And you say I have resorted to "personal attacks."

Because I criticized WTS intrusion into bedrooms he called me a pervert. What I have written about David is justified. He has made false accusations, and will not justify his claims and is not man enough to admit his error.

BTW whether the WTS printed something in 1938, or 2008 is irrelevant. It all shows the imorality of this autocratic cult.
---Warwick on 7/15/11


David, you cannot understand this truths about Christ because you have no faith in the Word of God. You take a passage and try to make your case because Jesus was manifested in bodly form, so you use those passages to counter your false Jehovah Witness doctrines. And it would not matter if the Truth is in front of you, you still would do what you do, because you were destine to. Everything that was spoken of the Lord was been fulfilled throght Christ. He had to come as a man to die for your sins, but you believe an angel died for your sins, and equal to satan, that is why you cannot see the light because you cannot see the Godhead.
---Mark_V. on 7/15/11


I believe most trinitarians here are sincere people but who have sadly been grossly misled into the pagan Egyptian/Babylonian trinity doctrine. However, the likes of Warwick on the other hand are a totally different can of worms.

I have pointed out where Warwick promotes trinitarian falsehoods at John 17:11 ('name' occurs only once, Warwick wants it twice) and John 14:14 ('me' appeared in manuscripts after the 3rd Century). Warwick also admits to polytheist theology in his understanding of Heb.1:1-3, ie. God is 'standing at God's right hand'.

To boot, Warwick's bizarre criticism of the Watchtower article he cited on the 'Father Jesus God' blog proves his acquiescence with today's immoral perversions.
---David8318 on 7/15/11


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Steven, thanks for your reply. It was so much better an explanation then just condemning all of them. You are right, the enemy is trying to pull all the stops but he can never take one of God's children. Those that God ordain unto salvation will be saved for God is God and no one has more power then Almighty God. The fact satan is still out there is because God permits him to be out there. We know there is many out there trying to pervert the word of God, but God knows who they are, and they will get their just reward. "For God has not appointed "us" to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess. 5:9)This statement is quite pointless if God has not "appointed" any to wrath.
---Mark_V. on 7/15/11


"Avoiding the point" Warwick

I have provided, what I believe to be, a reasonable and accurate response. If you disagree...big surprise. Somehow I will manage to sleep well tonight in spite of that.

You said "You need to provide the full quote..."

I don't need provide anything. It's your red herring. You posted it. Do your own homework. If a statement (in or out context) made in 1938 is important to you then find the book, I'm sure it's out there somewhere.

You've been embarrassed by JW 'heretics' and you seem to be increasingly ill-equipped to defend your trinitarian arguments using God's word alone. Therefore you resort to personal attacks...perhaps because that is all that you have left.
---scott on 7/15/11


'For Christ... having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit'- NAS.

'being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit'- ASV.

'being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit'- RSV.

1 Peter 3:18 is clear. Peter under inspiration wrote that Jesus was 'made alive in the Spirit'. Although able to put on the appearance of a human (as spirit creatures can do and have done), Jesus was not raised as a physical human being. (Was blood still pumping out of the wounds and holes he showed his disciples?)

Who will you believe? Marc and Ignatius or the Apostle Peter?
---David8318 on 7/15/11


Ignatius, disciple of Paul, Peter and John, wrote 'For I KNOW and believe that even after his resurrection he was in a physical body.' (To the Smyrnaeans iii)

Because the Watchtower doesn't believe Christ physically resurrected I can only suppose they'd have to say Ignatius was a heretic.

Oh, who to believe, the first Christians or Scott and his Brooklyn organisation? Tough question.
---Marc on 7/15/11


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Scott you purposefully avoid the point.

When the Aurocratic Watchtower Society writes "Would it be Scripturally proper for them (JW's) to now marry and begin to rear children? No, is the answer which is supported by the Scriptures." This would be meant and taken as a command.

I have no problem, because it is Scriptural, if people choose to remain single, so as to have more time and energy to serve the Lord. However, as you say 1 Timothy 4:1-3 says forbidding people to marry is the work of demons.

If you believe I have taken the quote out of context then you need to provide the full quote so my error can be shown!
---Warwick on 7/15/11


Scott how about telling the good folk here what is called inappropriate sex, within marriage, by the WTS?

David has run for cover on the whole issue so it appears up to you.
---Warwick on 7/15/11


JWS and Children Warwick (2)

So 1st century Christians (and WItnesses today) would have to, based on their own individual desires and circumstances, chose whether to marry or have children (both God-ordained, beautiful arrangements) or devote all of their time and energy to spiritual activities.

Scripturally it could be said (Jesus & Paul) that zealous Christians shouldn't marry. But "forbidding to marry" is listed among the teachings of demons. (1 Timothy 4:1-3) So it becomes a personal choice. And it has always been this way for Witnesses.

This is the context that Warwick (typically) failed to include with his internet snippet. So he distorts the real truth and hopes no one notices.
---scott on 7/14/11


Psalm 94:20,21 says that he that frameth mischief by a law is guilty of the innocent blood.
Proverbs 25:11 says a word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver.
The picture of Jesus that these men paint is nothing more than betraying the innocent blood for earthly gain.
The law of the spirit of life in Christ does not justify lies and greed.
---Frank on 7/14/11


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very interesting. i checked this morning and my short reply to Warwick was the 75th post and the blog was closed (How To Spot Heresy). i checked later and there were four posts in a row from anther blogger. it is amazing that some get to post several posts per update, it is really amazing that the post was already closed. oh, well...the Father reigns with Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. Three-in-unity.
---aka on 7/14/11


Mark_V.: "Steven.., then why do you speak against the Church?"

Mark_V., these are the end times. Satan is doing everything in his power to deceive christians and the denominational church is the bigest culprit. I speak not of the true church ofGod, but of denomiational churches who divide christians into their own little cults, water down the gospel, and teach a different gospel. The infiltration of the church has been happening since the time of Christ, but more noticably since after Israel became a nation in 1948. Satan know he has but a short time left and doing everything in his power to upset God's plan.
---Steveng on 7/14/11


//What are false preachers doing? They preach the false gospel of the trinity.//

There are other false teachers that deny that godliness is a mystery. but, what we can understand is that there is one in the tri-unity of the Father, the Word of God, and the Spirit of God. You can put whatever spin that you want backed by the scholars, call me a polytheist, bring up the Egypto-Baylonian babel...it does not matter. My eternal destination does not matter.

What matters is the Truth, and the Truth will set you free.

what matters is that I recognize my responsibility to those around me and I act on it. i will let the Lord decide Godly things.
---aka on 7/14/11


JWS and Children Warwick again...(1) Repeat

I seldom 'bite' on Warwick's off-topic red herrings. But I'll use this particular one to comment broadly on his approach.

1. Jehovah's Witnesses have always taken very seriously the repeated warnings of Jesus Christ (Matt 24, etc.) to "Keep on the watch."

Jesus spoke of singleness as a gift and urged those who could to make room for it. (Matthew 19:11, 12) Paul too discussed the advantages of singleness. (1 Corinthians 7:32-38) Paul also said "Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do."

On the other hand Jesus highlights the beauty of marriage at Matt 19:5.

Continued
---scott on 7/14/11


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Scott, from the JW publication 'Face the Facts' 1938 p.46 "Would it be Scripturally proper for them (JW's) to now marry and begin to rear children? No, is the answer which is supported by the Scriptures."

You claim this was just a suggestion but we know it came from an autocratic organization which rules by fear, to control the lives of its subjects.

It forbids them to have life-saving blood transfusions, and they die.

It forbade vaccinations and organ transplants-contrary to God's word! But then apparently God changed His mind and JW's can now have life-saving vaccinations and transplants!

Is this false Scott. David says it is but is not man enough to show where I am wrong.

Are you man enough?
---Warwick on 7/14/11


David you have plenty of time to carry on with your Babylonian babble but do not have the time or the integrity to demonstrate where I have 'lied,'

I think I am well within my rights to say that you have clearly proved that are the liar. And a coward for making false accusations then hiding.

At least Scott had some sort of a go at it. But failed.
---Warwick on 7/14/11


Scott, again ducking and weaving.

I mentioned the intrusion of the Watchtower Society into JW bedrooms and David called me a liar. He also called me a sexual pervert for approving of the sexual acts which the WTS forbids. I asked Him, and now ask you, to give details of these forbidden acts. Why wouldn't you? What do you have to hide?

But in true devious form you lamely endeavour to turn it back on me. It isn't for me to prove the truth but for the accuser to prove his claim, or admit it was a false claim.

Over to you.
---Warwick on 7/14/11


What are false preachers doing? They preach the false gospel of the trinity.

Those pushing the Egypto-Babylonian trinity deity as a 'Christian' teaching do exactly what Paul stated at Romans 1:25- 'those who exchanged the truth of God for the lie.'

For example, trinitarians corrupt Jesus' words at John 17:11- adding the word 'name' twice when it only appears once. And corrupt Jesus' words at John 14:14 by adding the word 'me' in later manuscripts giving the wrong idea Jesus requests prayers be directed to him.

Trinitarians are polytheists. They believe there are 2 God's at Hebrews 1:1-3 and at Genesis 1:26. Willa is right- trinitarians are in a dangerous position. I believe dangerous both spiritually and physically.
---David8318 on 7/14/11


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Steven, if it is as you say that you should know the truth by reading cover to cover, then why do you speak against the Church? "on this rock I will build My Church"
"but he who prophesis edifies the Church" "to excel in gifts to build up the Church" "Done for the strengthening of the Church" "As Christ is the Head of the Church" "For the sake of His body, which is the Church"
These are just some of the instructions given to us. The church is the gathering of believers no matter where they gather. A house, a park, a building, etc. So why do you do what you do, if you read the Bible cover to cover? Many Churches are doing fine, why crucify all of them for the one's which are bad?
---Mark_V. on 7/14/11


Mark_V.: "[Steveng] also said, all a person has to do is read the Bible cover to cover and they will know the Truth, but is not a fact either. The Spirit has to reveal the Truth to you."

If one has read the bible from cover to cover, then that person will know, just by reading the bible, that one must develop a personal relationship with the Holy Spirit to truly understand spiritual matters. With all the verses claiming the Holy Spirit, it's not likely that person will skip over the dozens of such verses. When a person reads the entire NT, he will know what to do to gain God's favor. And, if one reads the entire bible from cover to cover, he won't be swayed by false teachers, preachers and prophets.
---Steveng on 7/13/11


Steven, you did not first say, only the worldly denominational churches, you included all as if you knew the Truth yourself and went to all of them and studied what they taught and found all of them to be run by satan. I know for a fact you have not been to all churches yet you continue to make bold statements against the gathering of believers. You have not been to mine, and no person has been to all. While many of them have gone wrong, you crucify all of them. You also said, all a person has to do is read the Bible cover to cover and they will know the Truth, but is not a fact either. The Spirit has to reveal the Truth to you. You can read it all you want, but without the Spirit it means nothing.
---Mark_V. on 7/13/11


Lawrence, it is clear that you know most of the people who are on TBN are frauds.

It is good you are aware of this, yet there are so many people who are blind to this fact.

One example is many people on TBN claim to be anointed by God and have the ability to heal. Yet none of them seem to be able to heal Paul Crouch's legs, so he can stand up and walk.
---Rob on 7/13/11


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you forgot to mention the ones outside the Church who think they are Christians but or not. Those who teach against the Church of Christ and those who are teaching against the deity of Christ--Mark

And you accused me of saying you were not saved or a Christian! I certainly, for your sake, would be cautious about your words. If you are wrong about Christ being God you are in a dangerous place. If you truly pray, as I believe you do, with a desire to understand Gods word,don't hinder this by preconceived believes. You can not learn until you can admit you are wrong. That is why I understand why Christ divinity is false. I know this probably falls on deaf ears, but I pray that God will help in this.
---willa5568 on 7/12/11


Mark V and Steven: I think you are actually referring to the same people, you just use different terms to describe them!

There are true Christians in (I guess) all the denominations - even in cases where the denominational dogma is wrong, some real christians tend to remain, trying to help the others - let's not blame them for that!
---Peter on 7/12/11


Mark_V.: "Steven, you forgot to mention the ones outside the Church who think they are Christians but or not."

It's the false prophets, teachers, and preachers within the church that are most damaging. Satan has had two thousand years to infiltrate the church separating them into denominations. There is no unity among all the 33,000 so-called denomiantional churches in the world.

Mark_V.: "You again singled out the Church."

I singled out only the worldly denominational churches, not the true church of God. What will happen when you denominational churches fail the world?
---Steveng on 7/12/11


"AMEN" Sharon, 7/11/2011.

There are "SO CALLED CHURCHES" which are packed every week.

Yet they don't know, or they reject what is written in Galatians 2:19-21.
---Rob on 7/12/11


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The Bible speaks about false teachers "will make merchandise of you". Many televangelists and teachers are there to make money..period. I agree with the bloggers who point out that the "delusion" is not specific to the "church". It refers to anyone who believes dangerous errors about God. Bible says that in the end times many with depart from the faith. Also talks about apostasy{the great falling away}. There is no doubt that we are getting close to the end.
---jody on 7/12/11


If they don't follow Paul as he followed Christ,(1Cor 11:1)they are wrong.
---michael_e on 7/12/11


Steven, you forgot to mention the ones outside the Church who think they are Christians but or not. Those who teach against the Church of Christ and those who are teaching against the deity of Christ. Why didn't you add those? In your explanation only those from a denominational church are delusional, but you are wrong. There is delusional people everywhere. You again singled out the Church. As if they are the only ones delusional. There is many delusional believes that people have inside and outside of the Church of Christ, but it is because of sin. And because they have not abided in Christ.
---Mark_V. on 7/12/11


There's an end time bible prophesy saying that a great delusion will encompass the world. This is when christians who think they are christians, but are not.

Today's denominational churches have preached a different bible sprinkled with a verse here and there to make whatever they are preaching sound like it's biblical. Isn't that the same way Satan twists verses to make a believer believe in a lie? Denominational churches have also watered down the gospel by preaching fables, feeling good stories, and psycobabble instead of what Christ taught. If one does not want to be mislead, they would read the entire NT from beginning to end and take it to heart. If done, they would truly know the difference between the true gospel and the false.
---Steveng on 7/11/11


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Scott, I don't agree with anyone distorting or perverting the Bible for any reason.

I don't agree with those who use the Bible to deceive people and con them out of their money.
---Rob on 7/11/11


Col. 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Romans 1:28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.

It is hard to find any preacher on TV today that preaches only the gospel as such does not appeal to the natural mind.
---leej on 7/11/11


False teachers will try to teach for doctrine rules and regulations or ideas concocted in their own minds rather than the doctrines or teachings of the truth of being "IN CHRIST" which is being submerged into HIM per Galations 2:20. in other words, it ain't about us but it is about HIM, and what HE did for us.
---Sharon on 7/11/11


t b n . Transgressing Biblical
Necessities.
---Lawrence on 7/11/11


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Although I've heard the name, i am not familiar with him. I got rid of cable so I don't watch TV preachers. However, if any fit the following, there's reason for concern.

Col 2:8Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Rom 1: 25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
---Christina on 7/11/11


Rob what do you not agree with. Give an example.
---Scott on 7/11/11


I don't waste my time with TV preachers.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/10/11


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