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How To Spot Heresy

How do you spot a Christian heresy?

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 ---Marc on 7/11/11
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"No man may see me [God] and yet live" Exodus 33:20

Jehovah has always used angels to transmit His messages. (Matthew 3:17, 17:5, John 12:28)

Even the Law that God gave to the nation of Israel at Mount Sinai was transmitted by angels, although Moses was represented as talking directly with God himself.

The apostle Paul wrote:

"What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator." Galatians 3:19, NIV
---scott on 7/14/11

JWS and Children Warwick again...(2)

So 1st century Christians (and WItnesses today) would have to, based on their own individual desires and circumstances, chose whether to marry or have children (both God-ordained, beautiful arrangements) or devote all of their time and energy to spiritual activities.

Scripturally it could be said (Jesus & Paul) that zealous Christians shouldn't marry. But "forbidding to marry" is listed among the teachings of demons. (1Timothy 4:1-3) So it becomes a personal choice. And it has always been this way for Witnesses.

This is the context that Warwick (typically) failed to include with his internet snippet. So he distorts the real truth and hopes no one notices.
---scott on 7/14/11

"Advise us what the WTS decrees to be "degrading...practices." Warwick

Am I the only one who sees a healthy dose of irony here?

Was it not Warwick who found and then used this anti-witness internet snippet to deride Jehovah's Witnesses? Of course those snippets are always just that, without the entire article that may provide a little context.

But now Warwick wants David to find the article for him, or the details within? That's amusing but typical of someone who is unable to follow Peter's counsel:

"Always be prepared to give a defense to everyone who asks you to explain the hope you have." 1 Peter 3:15
---scott on 7/14/11

JWS and Children- Warwick again...(1)

I seldom 'bite' on Warwick's off-topic red herrings. But I'll use this particular one to comment broadly on his approach.

1. Jehovah's Witnesses have always taken very seriously the repeated warnings of Jesus Christ (Matt 24, etc.) to "Keep on the watch."

Jesus spoke of singleness as a gift and urged those who could to make room for it. (Matthew 19:11,12) Paul too discussed the advantages of singleness. (1Corinthians 7:32-38) Paul also said "Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do."

On the other hand Jesus highlights the beauty of marriage at Matt 19:5.

---scott on 7/14/11

warwick, i see what you are saying...believes in his existence.
---aka on 7/14/11

Willa,Scripture says Jehovah on earth rained down destruction from Jehovah in heaven. But you say this wasn't Jehovah on earth but an angel. By the same reckoning maybe it wasn't Jehovah in heaven either! Confusing!

---Warwick on 7/14/11

David stop your childish griping and stand up like a man.

I repeat, you accused my of lying about Scripture, and the WTS. It would appear that you now know the untruth was yours and try to evade answering by hiding behind a shield of false accusations.

You show yourself to be a man lacking probity.

Stop your blustering now and advise us what the WTS decrees to be "degrading even perverse (sexual)practices."

You now accuse me of mud-slinging which is a laugh coming from you-the pot calling the kettle black.

Man up and answer. No one likes a wimp.
---Warwick on 7/14/11

David you claim I wrote that Jesus is ('100% God'). I do not remember writing this. Can you please give my full quote including the 100%?

I have always said that "Jesus is not 100% God/100% man, but fully God/fully man. See this thread 13/07/11

The difference may be too subtle for you.

---Warwick on 7/14/11

Warwick, that is the problem answering athiest and heretics. They will throw all kinds of stuff out there and make a lot of accusations against what others say, but they never show proof of their believes. Willa says, "it could be" or "it is much more likely" because they have nothing to bring, but their own understandings. Presenting Scripture proof to them does nothing either, they reject it. It take for the Holy Spirit to bring light to them. God does not bestow His special grace whimsically and without purpose. His purpose is not only to enlighten, regenerate, and bring a sinner into fellowship with Himself but also to bring glory to Himself when He is ready.
---Mark_V. on 7/14/11


commendable attempt to evade the fact no where does it say God appeared as a man in the OT which also is in agreement in the NT. Also it could be the Father or the Spirit if you say God is three coequal persons who could not be seen. Which one was it? How can you by scripture prove it was who you say? Gods angels are His messengers and it is much more likely as His representative they carried His name and spoke on His behalf.
---willa5568 on 7/14/11


"A and B are one" and "A and B are one and the same" do NOT mean the same thing. We are to be "one" with Jesus as he is "one" with the Father. That does not make US God. A husband and wife are "one" flesh - but that does not make them the same person either. Such unity is in purpose, NOT in essence.
---StrongAxe on 7/14/11


Every competent scholar will tell you that that verse in 1John is an addition to the Greek text by a scribe, Trinitarians included. It is to justify the doctrine, Research for yourself.
---willa5568 on 7/14/11


Regarding Christians at the time of the Roman Empire, historian K.S. Latourette states:

"The accusations varied. Because they refused to participate in pagan ceremonies the Christians were dubbed atheists. Through their abstention from much of the community life - the pagan festivals, the public amusements ...they were derided as haters of the human race...

...It was said that both sexes met together at night ... and that promiscuous intercourse followed. ... The fact that [The Commemoration of Christ's death] was celebrated only in the presence of believers fed the rumours that Christians regularly sacrificed an infant and consumed its blood and flesh."

Book, a History of Christianity 1
---scott on 7/13/11

"All things that God does..." Ruben

Agreed. All things that God does not all the things that God is.

God did all of those things with the use of His Holy Spirit.
---scott on 7/13/11

Scott, is The New Bible Dictionary available online?
---Christina on 7/13/11

Willa5568 - I encourage you to look up 1 John 5:7-8, what does it say? These THREE bare witness: The Father, The Word (Jesus the Son), and The Holy Spirit, and these THREE are ONE. If you say different, you are calling God a LIAR.
---Leslie on 7/13/11

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David, again you are deceitful and evasive.

You claimed I lied about Scripture, and the WTS but disappeared when challenged to give proof!

David, please point us to WTS literature which spells out what constitute all the 'sexual perversions' you wrote about. This will show who is telling the truth.

I note you have avoided giving proof of my 'lies' regarding Scripture! For good reason.

You have also failed to confront my 'lies' regarding WTS backflips on vaccinations (once called a violation of God's will) and organ donation (once called cannibalism). Not 'lies' are they?

How many people died because of this evil? They were forbidden by God's will then apparently God changed His mind. Or was it the WTS?
---Warwick on 7/13/11

Warwick (and trinitarianism) has been revealed as polytheist, and was the basis for Warwick's tirade of abuse directed at the Watchtower, evidently because he did not like being confronted with his polytheist views.

It is clear from Warwick's comments regarding Hebrews 1:3 (7/6/11- 'Father Jesus' God' blog) that he believes Jesus ('100% God'), quote: 'sits in the position reserved for God, in heaven' ie.'at God's right hand.'

Thus, Warwick (and trinitarianism) has 2 God's at Hebrews 1:1-3. Trinitarian understanding of 'Elohim' at Genesis 1 also confirms a clear polytheist belief.

This polytheist belief is not scriptural. Thus, the trinity doctrine is man-made heresy, unscriptural apostasy (Cue Warwick's mudslinging tactics).
---David8318 on 7/13/11

David, is it also true that the Watchtower of 1st April, 1986 p.321 lists those things which indicate "apostasy" and for you can be "disfellowshipped?"

Does it include : "that 1914 marked the end of the Gentile Times and the establishment of the Kingdom of God in the heavens...That only a 144,000 Christians will receive the heavenly reward."

David the JW publication 'Face the Facts' 1938 p.46 asks "Would it be Scripturally proper for them (JW's) to now marry and begin to rear children? No, is the answer which is supported by the Scriptures."

Was I therefore also lying when I said JW's were once forbidden to have children?

---Warwick on 7/13/11

"In the OT the Holy Spirit [ruach] means a divine power..." p. 269, 1976

---scott on 7/13/11

A divine power because:

unusual strength like Sampsons (Judges 13:25)

It sets the prophet on his feet (Ezek. 2:2, 3:24)

It inspires the prophets preaching (Gen.41:38, 2 Sam.23:2)

and visions (Ezek.8:3, 11:24)

created both the cosmos (Gen. 1:2)

All things that God does...
---Ruben on 7/13/11

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Aka, regarding Atheist, he does not believe God exists. But God believes Atheist exists and wants him to be saved. Is that not so?

Many people have become Christians after they became aware of the presence of God. I do pray that God may be with Atheist, and reveal Himself to him.

I look forward to the day when he blogs as exAtheist!
---Warwick on 7/13/11

Willa three men appeared before Abraham and he called one of them Adonai and you say " No where does it say God appeared as a man or could be seen in the OT as a man."

And Jehovah the one Abraham called Adonai appeared on earth as a man, and called down destruction upon Sodom and Gomorrah from Jehovah in heaven. But you say He could not be seen?

Of course God who is spirit cannot be seen. That is why He appears as a man. He appeared to Abraham-Genesis 12:7-9. And to Moses et al-Exodus 24:8-11. That is why God the Son took upon Himself flesh so He could walk and talk among His children, His creatures.

He also appeared in a pillar of cloud Deuteronomy 31:14,15.
---Warwick on 7/13/11

Willa, you say Jesus is subject to the Father-a statement of the obvious! Philippians 2:6,7:

"Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage, rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death..."

Jesus is not 100% God/100% man, but fully God/fully man.

You wrote "God did His works through, him. Hebrews 2:10 and Romans 11:36 say everything was made through God. If everything being made through Jesus means He isn't Creator then these verses mean God isn't Creator either? Your call!
---Warwick on 7/13/11

"You have the WRONG God...NOT lined up with the Bible...NOT are heretic)s) and speaking heresies...DECEIVED and NOT God's at also have a spirit of AntiChrist..." Leslie

Leslie meet eloy, eloy...Leslie.
---scott on 7/13/11

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A true Christian is born of the Spirit by the will of God, and will be led by the Holy Spirit through the Word of God, and not led by the fallen person called the Pope. The Vatican is definitely not Christian but pretending to be one, using the name of Christ in vain. And as God declares,

"Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain." Exodus 20:7

To even dare use the Pope as a person speaking for Christ exposes one's spirit that's in unity with the Vatican.
---christan on 7/13/11


A Rabbi? Exactly what kind of Rabbi are you, a descendant of the Alexandrian Jews who Philo influenced with Hellenism? No Orthodox Jew would ever say God is three persons, but would call that blaspheme! It was no different in the time of Christ and before. The teachers of Israel said they have one Father God(John 8:41,42), Jesus said "it is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say He is our God"(John 8:54), Jesus quotes the Shama, "hear O' Israel the Lord our God is one Lord" and the scribe responds "You have spoken the truth, for there is one God, and there is no other besides Him"(Mark 12:32)Peter and the Apostles said,"The God of our fathers raised Jesus, whom you killed"(Acts 5:30).
---willa5568 on 7/13/11

"Active Force" NWT Marc (2)

The New Bible Dictionary

"Spirit Heb. ruah 378 times...NT, Gk. pneuma 379 times." And "Divine power, where ruah is used to describe ... a supernatural force...." And "At its heart [ruah] is the experience of a mysterious, awesome power - the mighty invisible force of the wind, the mystery of its vitality, the otherly power that transforms...

...all ruah, all manifestations of divine energy." And "at this early stage [pre-Christian] of understanding, God's ruah was thought of simply as a supernatural power (under God's authority) exerting force in some direction."

New Bible Dictionary, Tyndale House , 1984, pp. 1136, 1137
---scott on 7/13/11

StrongAxe- Warwick made his comments about the Watchtower on the 'Father Jesus' God' thread, dated 7/6/11. It's still there if you want to read it.

The Watchtower article cited what many believe to be degrading even perverse practices. Warwick on the other hand refers to such degraded perversions as 'love-making techniques', cynically remarking the Watchtower 'forbids the enjoyment of it'.

The WTS defence of what is Biblically clean and holy is a 'horror' to Warwick- (7/8/11 'Archangel' thread).

Either Warwick 'enjoys' the filthy perversions condemned in that Watchtower article, or he hasn't read it properly, can't read it, or is spouting twisted lies about it found on the internet- I wonder which one it is.
---David8318 on 7/13/11

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Willa5568 - You are VERY DECEIVED and NOT God's at all. According to the Bible, you also have a spirit of AntiChrist. The Bible says to stay away from people like you because you are of the devil, and have come to DECEIVE others.
---Leslie on 7/13/11

Marc, Awake! (1)

The Awake! article you refer to was a discussion about Pope John Paul II's comments to the General Assembly of the World Catholic Federation: "Would that all were prophets." LOsservatore Romano, August 24, 1984.

What you failed to include was the WT's comments: "The New American Bible correctly states: Prophet means one who speaks for another, especially for God. It does not necessarily mean that he predicts the future."

It was an article that discussed the 'Federations' desire for Catholics to evangelize but the challenges that presents when their faith in God's word has been undermined. For example...

---scott on 7/13/11

Marc, Awake! (2)

For example, in that article the preface to The New American Bible (by Pope Paul VI) was cited. There the Pope writes:

"How does one know whether one deals with history or some form of figurative speech? ... Most scientists hold that the human species has developed somehow from lower kinds of life. This knowledge helped Christians to rethink the 'how' of Gods creative activity and to understand that Genesis 2 and 3 is not a lesson in Anthropology, but an allegory, teaching us the lesson that sin is the root of all evil."

Hard to 'prophesy' (in its evangelical meaning) about the "gospel' or good news when faith in the reliability and accuracy of God's word is in question.
---scott on 7/13/11

StrongAxe- I was responding to Warwick's post on this thread dated 7/13/11.

Warwick persists in carrying his lies from one thread to another.
---David8318 on 7/13/11

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Bold words! Do this for me. Read the NT and see how many times it says Jesus has a God and Father, he is called a man, is subject to God the Father and it says God did His works through him. Then find where Jesus says I am God, not an interpretation of what a scripture means. Then show where it says he was 100% man and 100% God, no puzzle pieces put together. And last explain how he died and was raised by God, yet was God who cannot die, by scripture. See if what I say about Jesus is plain as can possibly be and/or is what the trinity doctrine teaches.
---willa5568 on 7/13/11


You said: clearly because Warwick prefers the sexual perversions the Watchtower condemns.

Where do you get such an idea? As much as I disagree with Warwick on several issues, I have never heard him indicate anything like what you suggest, neither in this blog, nor any other.

To which Watchtower article are you referring? I can find nothing in this blog that makes any reference to such a subject (other than your accusatin here).
---StrongAxe on 7/13/11

"Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come."
Matthew 12:31,32

NWT Gen 1:2 - "Now the earth proved to be formless and waste and there was darkness upon the surface of [the] watery deep, and Gods active force was moving to and fro over the surface of the waters."

Force? Are we in Star Wars? Matthew 12:31,32 speaks against your "NWT of the Holy Scriptures".
---christan on 7/13/11

"Active Force" NWT Marc (1)

At Genesis 1:2 the NWT renders the Hebrew word "ruach" (wind, breath) in a way that reflects its lexical meaning. And they are not alone in this understanding.

The Catholic Encyclopedia

"In the OT the Holy Spirit [ruach] means a divine power..." p. 269, 1976

The New English Bible (Catholic edition - Oxford Study Edition), footnote at Joel 2:32:

"The Lords spirit - the animating force behind the prophets".

The (trinitarian) New Bible Dictionary:

"It is important to realize that for the first Christians the Spirit was thought of in terms of divine power." p. 1139, Tyndale House, 1984.
---scott on 7/13/11

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Wasn't aware that I needed to explain any further how Warwick persists in his lies regarding material printed in the Watchtower.

The Watchtower constantly encourages its readers to maintain high moral Bible standards- standards that Warwick hates.

I believe the Watchtower article Warwick has a hatred for condemns sexual perversions prevalent in today's society. And I believe the article was responding a reader's question.

Warwick hates clean people with high moral standards- clearly because Warwick prefers the sexual perversions the Watchtower condemns.
---David8318 on 7/13/11

Willa5568 and Scott - It is clear that both of you have the WRONG God, therefore you are NOT lined up with the Bible, therefore you are NOT Christians, therefore you are HERETICS and speaking HERESIES. For everyone else, you can see how EASY it is to spot those speaking heresies. If your "God" does NOT line up with the Bible's God or if you do NOT line up with the Bible, you are a heretic and speaking heresies.
---Leslie on 7/13/11

//May God be with you.//
---Warwick on 7/13/11

Do you think that anybody who disagrees with the existence of God spends time on any AllahNet sites making silly comments about the existence of God?

Be careful with your blessings 2Jn 1:10-11.

'May God open your eyes and your heart' might be more appropriate.?

//You know even if you don't believe in Him, He believes in you!//

i don't think that you can back this up. God may love his creation, but does he believe in us? if so, why did He come in person. if He believed in us, couldn't we save ourselves?
---aka on 7/13/11

"Because I am a Rabbi." J-n (1)

Then you are a Rabbi who doesn't understand Hebrew.

'That the language of the O[ld] T[estament] has entirely given up the idea of plurality in . . . ['Elohim'] (as applied to the God of Israel) is especially shown by the fact that it is almost invariably construed with a singular verbal predicate, and takes a singular adjectival attribute. . . . ['Elohim'] must rather be explained as an intensive plural, denoting greatness and majesty, being equal to The Great God."

The American Journal of Semitic Languages and Literatures, Vol. XXI, 1905, p. 208.
---scott on 7/13/11

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"I am a Rabbi." J-n (2)

Then you're a Rabbi who doesn't understand Hebrew.

The NIV Study Bible footnote for Gen. 1:1

"This use of the plural expresses intensification rather than number and has been called the plural of majesty, or of potentiality." pg 6, 1985.

"The common plural form 'elohim', a plural of majesty." Nelson's Expository Dictionary of the OT, Unger and White, 1980, p. 159

"Applied to the one true God, it is the result in the Hebrew idiom of a plural magnitude or majesty. When applied to the heathen gods, angels, or judges...Elohim is plural in sense as well as form." Today's Dictionary of the Bible, 1982, pg 208
---scott on 7/13/11


what is a good reason to believe that? No where does it say God appeared as a man or could be seen in the OT as a man. You cannot determine when God can be seen and cannot to fit your doctrine. Did he discard his glory here to? Either God cannot be seen as scripture says or lied to Moses. If what you say is true considering all three of the single God are equal this could just as well have been the Father or the Holy Spirit, there is no reason to say it isn't according to this theory.
---willa5568 on 7/13/11

Hey Scott,

How come you won't explain why your organisation adds words to the first few sentences of the Bible that are not in the Hebrew text?

Why do you follow an organisation that has 'and God's ACTIVE FORCE was moving' at Genesis 1:2 when these words aren't in ANY manuscript?

Can you justify the Watchtower's adding these words so early in the Bible? After all, if something so early is added in order to disingenuously reflect an organisation's heretical theology and not the text, why would anyone trust them with the rest of the biblical text?

Can you answer this Scott?
---Marc on 7/13/11

"How do you spot a Christian heresy?"

Simple, when one is being contradicted by the Word of God. Eg,

Jesus clearly declared, "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:44

And the man says, "no, by our own freewill we can choose and go to Christ". This is heresy.

Another one, "As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." Romans 9:13

And one says that God loves everyone and wants to save everyone after Scripture clearly declares He will save only those whom He has elected, before the foundations of the world. That's heresy.
---christan on 7/13/11

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Willa, as I understand it 3 men suddenly stood before Abraham and he called the one of them (he who became the major spokesman) Adonai, one of the divine names.

There is good reason to believe that Adonai is Jesus in His preincarnate state, who took the form of a man so Abraham could see Him and talk with Him, as elsewhere e.g. 17:1. And accompanied by two angels in human form. Verse 14 "Is anything to hard for the Lord?" No!

The two men, apparently the two angels who visited lot, set off for Sodom and Gomorrah but the Lord remained and Abraham spoke with Him.

This same Lord then rained down fire and brimstone upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah from the Lord out of heaven.
---Warwick on 7/13/11

Atheist old fellow I have missed you.

You know I don't believe your answer is correct but it makes more sense than what Scot and co say.

May God be with you. You know even if you don't believe in Him, He believes in you!
---Warwick on 7/13/11

David me boy, you called me a liar then disappeared. Maybe the WTS booted you out for being to soft on me?

I am still waiting for you to give me the full details of where and how I lied.

As time has passed and you have avoided my challenges on this matter I consider it fair to say that you have lied.

Over to you.
---Warwick on 7/13/11

three men were standing in front of him...Genesis 18:2

Abraham sees three men and according to what you say one is the LORD. Jesus being God was not yet incarnate but was seen as a man? You said God is spirit. Was He not still a spirit if this is God the son? who as of yet could not be seen since he was still in the glory he had with God before he was incarnate. That goes against what scripture says. If Jesus is YHWH the son, who told Moses he could not see His face or he would die, how can a man here see his face?
---willa5568 on 7/12/11

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I don't know why you pretend to be an independent thinker, not under the authority of the Watchtower, and able to independently read the bible free from their/its (i.e. the Watchtower) interpretation. After all, didn't your authorities order you this: 'Jehovah God has also provided his visible organisation...Unless we are in touch with this channel of communication that God is using, we will not progress along the road to life, NO MATTER HOW MUCH BIBLE READING WE DO.' (The Watchtower. December 1, 1981, p. 27)

You can read the Bible but God's word won't save you. Fancy that, eh!

So all your lexicon snippets must first be approved by Brooklyn NY, yes?
---Marc on 7/12/11

"If God is but one person, why does He talk to Himself?"

After an infinite amount of time and absolutely nothing in the universe but himself, he is probably just a little "off." I would be, and so would anyone else. And we were made in his image, so that explanation is pretty likely.
---atheist on 7/12/11


"let us"

"The plural form of the verb has been the subject of much discussion through the years, and not surprisingly several suggestions have been put forward. Many Christian theologians interpret it as an early hint of plurality within the Godhead, but this view imposes later trinitarian concepts on the ancient text"(NET bible translation notes)

"In its ancient Israelite context the plural is most naturally understood as referring to God and his heavenly court"(NET Bible translation notes)

These are Trinitarians saying this!

"that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins"2:10
Doesn't scripture say God gave him this authority?
---willa5568 on 7/12/11

A heretic is usually someone who accuses almost everyone else of heresy.
---John.usa on 7/13/11

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Scott do you just make up lies as you posts. Because I am a Rabbi and EVERYTHING you said about Hebrew words(i.e. Elohim) is absolutely false!

One word Scott... Emanuel (G-d among us= Jesus Christ)


Of all the Heresies/Blasphemies listed in scripture.
The one at the very top of the list is the one that us warns of Satanic Imposters who deny the Diety of Christ.

They are to be removed and will face the darkest part of Hell!

You have taken your arrogance and coupled it with ignorance and replaced it with a Demonic theology which you prooftext(look it up) by some demonic command or Demonic Cult.

What you say is Blasphemy, and it should not be argued.

G-ds Judgment WILL fall upon You!!!
---John on 7/13/11

when somebody tries to deny, diminish, and downgrade, Immanuel, God with us, in any way, it is ill-advised.
---aka on 7/12/11

Scott, again, Solomon is human, only in one place. If Solomon is in two places at once there are two different Solomons! Could be cousins!

But God is spirit, and everywhere! As in the Holy Spirit hovering over the waters. Just in one spot?

Genesis 19:24 God talks to God.

Genesis 1:26 God (Elohim) says "..Let "us" make man in 'our' image, in 'our'likeness..."

If God is but one person, why does He talk to Himself?

You quoted Hosea 1:6,7-Jehovah says He will no longer forgive the house of Israel but He will save them by Jehovah their God.

And along comes Jesus (Jehovah our righteousness Jeremiah 23:6)who in Mark 2:7 says "Son, your sins are forgiven.

One God, 3 'persons'.
---Warwick on 7/12/11

Scott your case is not at rest, but asleep.

Being a long-term amateur race-car-driver I can discern when I am about to lose sideways traction. I have experienced the tingling sensation before. At 200kph+ the tingle is more of an electric shock. When I see the same arguments served up in like style I can discern its sameness.

I nowhere said I had "door-step" conversations with JW's but have invited them in. One man visited me every Saturday for about a year. In these lengthy conversations and answers on websites I have seen the same words, style and format. That to me says-pre-prepared answers which can be spoken, or cut and pasted!

No matter to me, you are wrong even if your answers are all your own work.
---Warwick on 7/12/11

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Not to butt into your conversation with willa5568 ..


...It's the IM ending at the end of 'Eloh-im" that makes this word plural.

For example, the Hebrew word for King is 'melech'. If you add the plural 'im' onto the end you have 'melech-im' which does not mean multiple kings inside one... but multiple kings.

So Elohim literally either means lots of Gods (which would be polytheism if applied to Gen 1) or as most Hebrew scholars agree, when applied to a single individual, it's what's called the "plural of majesty." It's a common way of adding weight and importance to a single individual.

Remember Moses is called 'Elohim' at Exodus 7:1. Just one Moses.
---scott on 7/12/11

1.If an organisation implies or actually says they are Christian, and then holds that they alone will be saved e.g. JWs, then that might be a good sign.

2. They add words to the text on the very first page to change the meaning to fit in with their own theology e.g. Watchtower translation: 'and God's active force was moving' (Genesis 1:2) Active force? Where's that in the Hebrew?
---Marc on 7/12/11

Another thing could be that there is a continual pattern of changing their minds on, what they perceive as, fundamental and determining principles of faith e.g. JW belief in blood transfusion and 'Who is the 'angel of the bottomless pit' (Rev 9:11)? The Watchtower Society's 1917 commentary says 'in plain English his name is Satan, the Devil.' (p. 159). But in its 1969 commentary 'Then Is Finished The Mystery of God' 'All this plainly identifies the 'angel' as picturing Jesus Christ, the Son of Jehovah God,' (p. 232)
---marc on 7/12/11

"A hint to the discerning?" Warwick

No, this is not discernment, this is eisegesis. You're reading into scripture something that isn't there, something that you want it to say.

This is clear because the same idiomatic language is used of Solomon.

Either the 'discerning one' sees Solomon as a two-in-one or multiple King or the idiom, as it applies to Jehovah, is simply a classical Hebrew way of recording Jehovah's words without mysterious inference.

The common, idiomatic language is the same in both cases. Your theological special pleading wants it to be one thing for Jehovah and another for Solomon.
---scott on 7/12/11

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To spot a heretic, see if they proclaim that truth lies with them and them alone e.g. 'You will be interested to learn that God has on earth a people, all of whom are prophets, or witnesses for God. In fact, they are known throughout the world as Jehovah's Witnesses.' (Awake!, June 8, 1986)
---marc on 7/12/11


Elohim never refers to one being three. It is either one person defined by their being a singular noun or pronoun such as YHWH. If it is not one person it is plural, gods. What you have said is not in agreement with grammar or the usage of the word. And you have no proof to back the "let us" being only three persons nor it being limited to God alone. But it says "in HIS image HE created him". God, a single person not an it or three which cannot be "he". And Angels certainly are seen in appearance as men so what I say about them is viable.
---willa5568 on 7/12/11


Ahhhhh so now your accusation of me (having some mysterious cut-and-paste manual) is based on something that you've simply imagined? Based on actual conversations that you have had?

How exactly does someone "cut-and-paste" in a doorstep conversation?

I called you on your repeated claim and said "If you can't [prove it] then this is just one of many baseless accusations that you use as red herrings to distract from your failed premises, special pleading and circular reasoning."

I rest my case.

You couldn't and it is.
---scott on 7/12/11

Scott, your Scripture references may well be evidence for the plurality of God. A hint to the discenning?

However nothing you quote changes that the majority of translations show Jehovah on earth was talking to Jehovah in heaven. When you try to relate the being of God to a human you miss the point of who God is. Man is corporal,limited to time and space. God isn't. God said "Let there be light." Can we understand how He did this let alone do it?

I have seen the style and content of your responces before, from others, so imagine they are from information supplied to JW's to undermine Christians. I know JW's are well schooled in this as I have had dozens here over the years. Strangely they don't visit anymore.
---Warwick on 7/12/11

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Willa5568 - You MISINTERPRET scripture. Elohim refers to ONE GOD in THREE PERSONS (God the Father, God the Son (Jesus), God the Holy Spirit). In Gen. when it says let us make man in "our" image - this is Elohim (God the Father, God the Son (Jesus), God the Holy Spirit). "Our" here does NOT refer to heavenly beings - humans are NOT heavenly beings. The Bible says we are like God (Elohim) and we are gods (taking on God's name, character, nature, and attributes, spirit, NOT being God) (John 10:34-35). Think of Elohim as an egg (one egg in three parts - shell, yoke, white). They are NOT three different eggs, but ONE egg in THREE parts.
---Leslie on 7/12/11

Zec 10:12 And I will strengthen them in the LORD, and they shall walk up and down in his name, saith the LORD.
Exo 23:13 And in all [things] that I have said unto you be circumspect: and make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
We spot heresy the same way Christians did back in the heretic Arius' time, their interpretations of some scripture do not line up with the rest of scripture.
JW's, a rehash of old 3rd century ideas, started its roots in the 1870's.
---micha9344 on 7/12/11

How do you spot a Christian heresy?
EASY: Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
---francis on 7/12/11

Genesis 19:24- And other similar Hebrew idioms

"Then Solomon assembled the elders of Israel, and all the heads of the tribes, the chief of the fathers of the children of Israel, unto king Solomon in Jerusalem..." 1 Kings 8:1 KJV

"Then he [Jehovah] said to Moses, "Come up unto Jehovah, you and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu..." Exodus 24:1 ASV

"And [Jehovah] said to him...I will no more have mercy on the house of Israel, to forgive them at all...But I them by Jehovah their God..." Hosea 1:6, 7 ASV

"And I will strengthen them in Jehovah, and they shall walk up and down in his name, saith Jehovah." Zechariah 10:12
---scott on 7/12/11

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"Is not Chemosh one person...?" willa5568

Yes. So is Moses (Elohim) at Ex 7:1
---scott on 7/12/11

When you know the Truth, spotting Lie is obvious. One of the main heresies today is the false "love gospel" which says that God wrests judgment by indescriminately loving all people always and at all times, even the evil souls, and that he loves all unconditionally. This heresy has sent millions of people to hell, with the delusion that God winks at my sins and he always loves and accepts me no matter if I obey or disobey him, or if I live in righteousness or live in sinuousness.
---Eloy on 7/12/11

Will you not possess what Chemosh your god(Elohim) gives you to possess? And all that the LORD our God(Elohim) has dispossessed before us, we will possess.--Judges 11:24

Is not Chemosh one person who is their God? If what you say is true them Chemosh is a plurality in persons but one God. Also YHWH is a singular noun(person) followed by God(Elohim). Does the plural Elohim determine how many a singular person(name) is in number or the persons name? As I said Elohim created man in His image, His being singular , as it says "in the image of Elohim created He him". Also "let us" can refer to the heavenly host since "he" created man in the image of God, as they are sons of God.
---willa5568 on 7/12/11

"Prepared cut and paste WTS answer... Warwick

I challenge you to find the recent quotes that I have directed to you (regarding Elohim, Gesenius' Hebrew Chaldee Lexicon, Young's Concise Critical Bible Commentary, etc.) in a WT publication. Let alone one designed for 'cut and paste prepared responses' as you have said repeatedly.

If you can't do so then this is just one of many baseless accusations that you use as red herrings to distract from your failed premises, special pleading and circular reasoning.

If there is such a (cut and paste) publication I would like to know as it would certainly save a bit of time.

Take your time. I'll wait.
---scott on 7/12/11

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//Read and study the entire Bible, and if it does not line up with the Bible, it is heresy.//
If it is not rightly divided
---michael_e on 7/12/11

Anything NOT lined up with the Bible is heresy. Read and study the entire Bible, and if it does not line up with the Bible, it is heresy. Even going by this standard, you can see that MOST of the people on Christianet are heretics and speaking heresies. Also, if it is a rhema word from the Holy Spirit, it will ALWAYS line up with the Bible or it is a heresy as well - the Holy Spirit ALWAYS lines up with the Bible.
---Leslie on 7/12/11

I only know of two ways to spot heresy.

This is by following the instruction found in 2 Timothy 2:15, and following the example found in Acts 17:11.

It seems like 90% of the people in the world will not do these two things. This is openning themselves up to being victims of Satan and his servants.
---Rob on 7/12/11

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