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Explain 1 Timothy 6:13-16

In 1Timothy 6:13-16 who is the only sovereign, has immortality alone and honor and eternal dominion are to be given to in vs. 15 and 16. Is it God or Jesus since Timothy is charged before both?

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 ---willa5568 on 7/12/11
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Mark,

He had one left, his one dear son. Finally he sent him to them, saying, They will respect my son.>Mark 12:6(NET)

-This is how The Greek text reads, "Yet he had one," that is, one person to send, after all his bondslaves were either maltreated or killed(Wuest)

Not the best verse to use, As Peter agrees in Acts 4:37.

Romans 1:8-First of all, I thank my God through Jesus Christ

So is he saying "I thank my God through my God Jesus Christ?

Can you answer my question. Is YHWH, who says I, me, mine,my, a thing or a person since He/it consists of three persons.

You are correct, God must reveal truth. But if you don't search for truth He can't reveal it.
---willa5568 on 7/28/11


You are right that begotten does not mean the same thing as born, but so far as I can tell, all of Abraham's children, and the Bible records 4 by various women, were born as well as being begotten.

Glory to Jesus Christ.
---Cluny on 7/28/11


JamesL,

I know exactly what it means, to be one of a kind. Just like Issac he was promised by God, "you are my son today I have begotten you">Hebrews 1:5--begotten here is gennao, but it is to prove my point, he was the one and only born son of God, not the one and only God the Son.

Article 22-The Son is of the Father alone, not made nor created, but begotten
(Athanasian Creed)
This is the trinitarian teaching of who Jesus is, unless you have some different form than the majority. This in no way means "one and only" but exactly what I am saying.
So my question still stands, how can he be begotten or fathered if he is eternal?

What say you?
---willa5568 on 7/28/11


Willa, really, there is no way anyone can make you believe in the eternal Begotten Son of God. We can give you Scripture but you are not willing to listen. And I told you why, the very reason others believe as you do. Flesh and Blood cannot reveal this to you, but the Father in heaven can.
"Yet, then, having one Son, His only Be-loved, He sent Him to them at last, saying, They will respect My Son" Mark 12:6. What can be more plain all through the parable than the Husbandmen represents the Jews, the servants the prophets, and the son of the blessed householder the Blessed Lord?" The parable in Mark 12 "The parable of the Vineyard Owner"
---Mark_V. on 7/28/11


\\How can you be begotten(born) and be part of an eternal God?\\
---willa5568 on 7/27/11

Why do you keep insisting that begotten means born?

I've explained this to you on more than one occasion, and you have never even responded to my comments about this.

You keep asking as though you can't find anyone with an answer. Like your philosphical arguing can usurp the word of God?

MONOGENE =
mono - one, only, single, etc
gene - kind, substance

Are you denying that this word is used of Isaac being the only begotten of Abraham? Yet we all know that there was one BORN to Abraham before Isaac.

What say you???
---James_L on 7/27/11




Willa, your just not willing to believe as the lost are. Take one passage we all have read again and again,

"In this the love of God was revealed in us, that God has sent His Son, the Only Begotten, into the world so that we might live through Him"
without beleif in the Son of God, there is no salvation.
God here declares to have "sent His Son" His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him"
Here the Person sent which was no other then His begotten Son. Jesus Christ could not become for the first time His Son in the womb of Mary, but must have been His only begotten Son before He was sent. The mere act of sending could not make Him to be His Son, before He was sent.
---Mark_V. on 7/27/11


//How can you be begotten(born) and be part of an eternal God?willa5568 7/27/11//----Beautiful question.

God the creator spoke. What did He speak with?
His Word-[HE IS] defined [within them] down to each letter.
Gen 1:1
In the beginning God[Elohiym] created [a t]
Tranliterated [Aleph Tav]
translated- beginning and end.
The Word of God has No beginning or ending--His Word begins and ends [all things].
The [definitive] Judging [all things].
Jn 6[ALL]
vs 45
is [written] in the prophets, [And they shall be all taught of God]. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me].
God spoke with His Breath[ruach] His Word to [adam-humankind]
Before He spoke there was silence.
---char on 7/27/11


Mark,

The son of God and God the Son are very different discriptions. First Adam was the son of God(the first Adam) as well and no where does it say God the Son, and for a good reason, he isn't God. If Jesus is God does that not mean he could not at that time be seen? Or could only part of God be seen? I am not quite sure how you come up with this. Either God can or cannot be seen. Which is it?

Here is part of the trinitarian doctrine:

Article 21-The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten
Article 22-The Son is of the Father alone, not made nor created, but begotten
(Athanasian Creed)

How can you be begotten(born) and be part of an eternal God?

Please tell me this is not what you believe.
---willa5568 on 7/27/11


1 Timothy 6:13-19
13I give thee charge in the [sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus], who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession, 14That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until [the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ]: 15Which [in his times] he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords,

16Who only hath [immortality, dwelling] in the light which no man can approach unto, whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

17Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy,
---char on 7/27/11


willa, ,
Not sure what you mean by [Timothy is charged]?
Timothy was given the earliest instructions for orderly arrangement in the church altogether ethical.
Some had swerved and turned aside altogether, others denied vital truth and overthrew "the faith of some"
Unleven spread as we see in the Second Epistle of the ruin and departure.

It is God [Y'Hvah] who has declared His Word to [adam-mankind]
Jesus Christ[Y'sh a]
Immanuel-God with us Word in flesh.There is only One God who as Creator declared His Word to all the souls [which belong to him regardless of belief Ez 18:4].


One Word
One Truth
One Mediator
God is Spirit
God is Holy
One God-different dimension
2King 6:17
---char on 7/27/11




Willa, so you really do not believe in the Son of God. You said you did. Now you don't.
Second, I know it was the Lord Himself who appeared to Gideon, because the Word of God tells me it was Him.
"Then the Lord turned to him and said, Go in this might of yours, and you shall save Israel from the hand of the Midianites, "Have I not sent you?"
Who was present? God.
Who turned to him and told him what to do? God.
And we know that God is Spirit and no one has seen God. So who did He see?
Do you think by not capitalizing "Son" it's going to stop Him being the only Begotten Son? You refuse to believe in Him as I had thought. The Father has not revealed it to you.
---Mark_V. on 7/27/11


God is light: 1jn 1:5"This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all." John bore witness of the Light: John 1: 6-9 "6There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

7The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

8He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
---chria9396 on 7/27/11


article 15-So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God,
article 16-And yet they are not three Gods, but one God(The Athanasian Creed)


The Father is God, the son is God and the Holy Spirit(who according to this creed we are to worship) is God, yet they are one God?. So either there's three Gods or one thing, not a person. There is no way three persons can be one person. So you have then a thing saying "I am YHWH your God, there is none besides me", "I" and "me" referring to a singular person, unless they say it together which would have to say "we" and "us". Even Trinitarian scholars are confused on how to explain this, which I understand. So who's jesting?
---willa5568 on 7/26/11


Mary,

I have never said he was just a human, he is the son of God who was the only born. He and Adam were both in the exact image of God. According to John 1:1 it was not the son who became flesh but the word so according to this the trinity would be the Father, the Word and the Spirit, there is no son until his birth. And as I said earlier to someone, Your understanding of this verse would be, "in the beginning was the Son. The Son was with the Father and the Son was the Father". Whether he was man or not does not change the fact he KNEW he was God so Out of oneside of his mouth he says to his disciple he, supposedly, is God and the other he has a God. God does not change and it grieves me many say He has.
---willa5568 on 7/26/11


who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation>1Corinthians 1:15

According to trinitarian I have heard on here, this says Jesus is God. But is God born?

Article 22-The Son is of the Father alone, not made nor created, but begotten
Article 26-But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal(Athanasian Creed)

Not made or created but begotten AND coeternal, what on earth does that mean? how on earth can one be begotten and coeternal at the same time? And how can Jesus be coequal to someone he gives the kingdom to so the one he hands it to will be all in all?

No need to wonder why I questioned this and reject it!
---willa5568 on 7/26/11


Willa, have you read John 1 where it talks about the Word being with God and the Word was God? Jesus is the Word, I don't know why you reject the idea of the Son of God being God Himself. It floors me when I read your posts, to be honest. Makes me sad to hear Jesus described as just a human.
---Mary on 7/26/11


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Mark,

I did not capitalize son because I want it to be clear I reject whole heartedly he is God. And this is what I said about revelation, "Gods revelation is not a "mystery" that even those who believe it cannot agree on how to explain it but by extra-biblical words" such as theophony. As I said the "messenger" of the Lord is an angel, not God visibly seen. And you have no proof either that who you claim(it is God the son) this angel to be by scripture.

Acts 7:44, Hebrews 2:2, Galatians 3:19 tell what you think about these verses.
---willa5568 on 7/26/11


Willa, you confessed you knew who the Son of God was. That was your confession. So you refuse to capitalize "Son". To make sure I understood that He is a son but not the "Son of God." Then you say that revelation is not a mystery, that everyone should know what revelation is already. That Scripture is wrong, that the Spirit does not reveal things to the believers, because they know already as you do. And you did not tell me who the Angel of the Lord was. You assume and speculate but no answer from Scripture. You do not recognize Him as Gideon. You need proof, just as he did. I didn't once speak of orthodox or unitarian believes, but what an honest person would answer.
---Mark_V. on 7/26/11


Mark,

I certainly did answer it. What you assume is not proof at all. No where in scripture does it ever say "God the son" is the angel of God, if so show me in scripture. Gods revelation is not a "mystery" that even those who believe it cannot agree on how to explain it but by extra-biblical words. Nor did any of the NT writers elude in any way this angel was "the son" or even God himself appearing in the "form of a man". Acts 7:44, Hebrews 2:2, Galatians 3:19

You study scripture to find what you believe "Orthodoxy" teaches to be correct doctrine, not to find what is biblical and then believe the truth in spite of what "Orthodoxy" demands we believe to be Christian.
---willa5568 on 7/25/11


Willa, you didn't answer the question. I gave you Judges 6:12-27, and you come out with some conspirecy theory that some made up. I ask, who do you think He is.
1. The Angel of the Lord appeared to Gideon.
2. Then the Lord turned to him and said,
3. Gideon then asked the Lord,
"If now I have found favor in Your sight, then show me a sign that it is You who talk with me." Gideon like you, didn't believe it was the Lord Himself.
Like Gideon, you to ask for a sign to make sure it is Him. Because with your wisdom you just won't believe.
That is why Jesus said to Peter, "Flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father in heaven"
You need for God to reveal this Truths to you.
---Mark_V. on 7/25/11


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First there is no scriptural justification to say the angel of the Lord is "God the son", since according to this theory it might just as well be the Father since YHWH is used. Second what is an angel, isn't it a messenger? As I have seen in many translations it reads "Gods messenger". Can it not be that YHWH is speaking to Gideon through His messenger? Exodus 3:4 says God spoke to Moses out of a bush! Also Exodus 17:9 YHWH says he will strike the water with the staff in his hand but tells Moses that Aaron is to strike the water with his staff.

Either YHWH lied to Moses after speaking to him as/by " the messenger of YHWH" or it is YHWH's messenger.
---willa5568 on 7/24/11


Willa, I'm completely convinced that Jesus Christ is the Son of the living God. I don't believe with my studies in Christology, that I could be persuated differently. I'm no expert but have every passage from God's Word, that proofs beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Jesus Christ is the eternal Son of God.
Willa, would you like to tell me what your interpretation of only one passage means to you? ( Judges 6:12-21 ) Who do you say the Angel of the Lord is? Since we know "no one has seen God" as we read, yet the Angel of the Lord appeared to Gideon. And (v.14) say, " Then the Lord turned to him and said, "Go in this might of yours, and you shall save Israel from the hand of the Midianites. Have I not sent you?"
---Mark_V/ on 7/24/11


Mark,

I love you also brother. I hope you understand convincing others is not my objective, but to offer something many have not considered. My saying certain passages are biased because of doctrinal beliefs is not an unfair statement since both Trinitarian and Unitarian renderings are possible. JW's John 1:1 "a god" translation is justifiable, yet they as well as trinitarians and Arians say "the word"(Jesus, the Son) was pre-existent. I understand "logos" to be what it means, a thought expressed in words. This word being the promise of a redeemer became flesh. All I hope is to provoke each of us to prove beyond a reasonable doubt to ourselves, not me, we are not wrong.

Peace to you as well brother
---willa5568 on 7/23/11


Willa, I want you to know that I love you, no matter what you believe. I understand your feelings. I also understand why you answer as you do. And why you say the passages are bias to you and should read something else. That is what the Witnesses say about John 1:1, " Jesus, a little god. Of course everything is bias to those who don't recognized the Son of the living God. The Father has to reveal it to you. I cannot, no matter how many passages I give you. You are right, you don't need anymore passages. So I will leave you be. Peace I leave you
---Mark_V. on 7/23/11


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The God of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob,the God of our fathers, hath glorified his servant Jesus:whom, ye, indeed, delivered up and denied to Pilates, face when he had judged to release him> ACTS 3:13

Mark,

In Acts 3:13-26 within the context of this passage that Peter speaks in, explain how it can be that Jesus is God?

I have no need of any other verses or explanations to explain who Peter understood Jesus, (Gods servant), and God to be(the God of their forefathers). Is the trinitarian doctrine able to do so?
---willa5568 on 7/23/11


James, you are correct, we will not know everything in this life. That is so true. What we do have as you say is Scripture. And before we can learn anything, the Spirit has to reveal it to us.
"Only Begotten" is (monogenes) and is related to the Sonship of Christ as introduced in the O.T. but also in the New T five times, all in the writings of John. The though is clearly that Christ is the Begotten of God in the sense that no other is. This is illustrated as you said in regard to Isaac (Heb. 11:17), who was not literally the only begotten of Abraham but was the only begotten of Abraham in the sense that he was the Promised seed.
"First begotten" meaning (Prototokos) has a different meaning.
---Mark_V. on 7/23/11


James 2: The "Only Begotten Son of God" means the divine nature as in the following passage, "And the Word became flesh and lived among us. And we saw His glory, the glory as of an only Begotten of the Father, full of grace and Truth". Seeing His glory we were seeing Christ divine nature. In the flesh His own received Him not, yet some received Him, who were they? "were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" Only those born of the Spirit received the Divine Christ. This cannot refer to His human nature, for we read, "No man has seen God at any time, the only-begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him"
---Mark_V. on 7/23/11


Christan, many don't understand that without God they can do nothing. When Jesus questioned the desciples, "Who do men say that I the Son of man am? And he said, Some say John the Baptist and other say Elijah, and others say Jeremiah or one of the prophets" Jesus made it more clear, "But you, who do you say that I am? Simon Peter answered, saying, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God" By Peter acknowing He was the Christ, the Son of the living God by nature, and the promised Messiah, he was declaring his belief in Christ, And Jesus said to him, "Flesh and blood had not revealed it to him but His Father in heaven". Without the revelation, they would not know Him.
---Mark_V. on 7/21/11


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If God is Father, Son, Holy Spirit, is YHWH a person or a thing. Three persons cannot be one person but are the substance of one thing, such as a team. If YHWH is a thing why are personal pronouns in the OT used over 20,000 times, such as he, his, him, I, me which cannot refer to a thing but a singular person. where as we, our, us refer to a plurality of persons which is only used 4 times of which even trinitarian theologians debate whether it refers to plurality in the Godhead(making God a thing), the majesty of God being magnified or God speaking to the heavenly hosts.

Example: "I am YHWH your God their is none beside me"
---willa5568 on 7/21/11


"At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight." Matthew 11:25,26

"But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them, and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them." Matthew 13:16,17

It is God alone who decides who He will give eyes and ears to and the man has no part of this whatsoever.
---christan on 7/20/11


Mark V,
Like I said earlier, my understanding falls very short of a neatly packaged doctrine. The earliest Christians had the same dilema, that's why it took 300 years to formulate a doctrine.

God is that far above our ways. We will never fully grasp His nature as long as we are still in this realm.

I am convinced that one must search not only the wisdom of creeds and such, one must search the scriptures.

And the scripture in question speaks of the Father.
---James_L on 7/19/11


James, the comment you made I am sure is wrong, when you said,
"God the Father is the only sovereign, and in Him alone is immortality. All things are from Him."
the reason is that all Three persons of the God are sovereign. They all have the same attributes. All Three are Omniscient, Omnipotent, and Omnipresent. Though those words are not in the Bible they are words that discribe the nature, character and attributes of God to those who study Scripture.
All Three are mentioned as Creators. But in attempting to believe in the Truths a believer needs to submit completely to the Scriptures by faith. Otherwise the spiritual matters concerning the deity of God are corrupt.
---Mark_V. on 7/19/11


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Chria9396,

sorry for the typo on Deut 25

Also, good reference earlier about Jesus being the exact representation of the God
---James_L on 7/18/11


James L, Another great reference!

Heb 11:17-19 is a favorite of mine for personal reasons, and still I never 'saw' the only begotten part.
---chria9396 on 7/18/11


This is refering to God the Father who will usher in the end times.(appearance of Jesus Christ ) Jesus is the Lord of Lords and the King of Kings. It is written on his robe and thigh in Revelation 19:16 Paul uses this title for God the Father here probably to confront emperor worrship. The immortality and honor and eternal dominion here is directet to God.Jesus is God, the Son, equal in every way.
---Davido on 7/18/11


chria9396,

Hebrews 11:17
By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son

the phrase "only begotten son" (sound familiar) is 'monegene' means "only born"

But we know that Abraham had Ishmael, also his offspring.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His "only begotten Son" (monogene), that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

For Unitarians to say that "Son" means offspring is a clear abuse of scripture, whereby they prey on the innocent with slick rhetoric that most can't defend
---James_L on 7/18/11


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James L, Thanks for the reference, however, I believe it is Deuteronomy 25, not deut 5.
---chria9396 on 7/18/11


Chria9396,

Deuteronomy 5:5-10

5 ....dies and has no son....Her husbands brother shall....perform the duty of a husbands brother to her.

6 ....the firstborn whom she bears shall assume the name of his dead brother....

7 But if the man does not desire....then his brothers wife shall....say, My husbands brother refuses to establish a name for his brother....

8 ....And if he persists....

9 then....spit in his face, and she shall declare, Thus....the man who does not build up his brothers house.

10 In Israel his name shall be called, The house of him whose sandal is removed.



had to compact it to fit
---James_L on 7/18/11


James L, " "son" did not mean "offspring" to the Jew. Abraham is said to have only one son when he had two offspring.

If a Jew died without a son, his brother would take the wife and have a child. Get this one...offspring of the living man, but son of the dead man.A son was an heir. God's Word became flesh and is the beneficiary of an inheritance."
This is new to me, and quite interesting!
Also you wrote "The problem comes when we think IMAGE of God means EXACTLY like God." This speaks of man made in His image, in contrast to the Son: "Hebrews 1:3
The Son is the radiance of Gods glory and the EXACT representation of his being,".
---chria9396 on 7/18/11


Willa5568 part 1,

I don't know if it will help or just confuse things, but my understanding of the Trinity falls short of a neatly packaged doctrine.

God the Father is the only sovereign, and in Him alone is immortality. All things are from Him.

Jesus is the Word of God made flesh.

the Holy Spirit is the Breath of God.

God speaks and it is created. God breathes and it has life.

In Genesis 1:26-28 God said LET US make MAN in OUR image...So GOD created THEM...Then God said "be fruitful and multiply"

So the Trinity is spoken of there. Adam who represents the Father...Eve who is from Adam...and from THEM came the child.
---James_L on 7/18/11


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Willa5568 part 2,

Eve and the child were part of Adam, though they were separate persons. The family is the image of God, not the individual. I can anticipate "but the child was made"

You're right. But it is only the image of God. The problem comes when we think IMAGE of God means EXACTLY like God.

I've commented to you before that "son" did not mean "offspring" to the Jew. Abraham is said to have only one son when he had two offspring.

If a Jew died without a son, his brother would take the wife and have a child. Get this one...offspring of the living man, but son of the dead man.

A son was an heir. God's Word became flesh and is the beneficiary of an inheritance.
---James_L on 7/18/11


Cluny,

does this say Jesus has a God now, at the right hand of God? How can he be in heaven and still have a God and be God?

made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever>Revelation 1:6

the Revelation is given by Jesus through an angel. Why on earth does it say Jesus still has a God? It's not about us being literal pillars, they are symbolic of what we are. But Jesus saying "my God" is far from symbolic!
---willa5568 on 7/18/11


\\The one who conquers I will make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will never depart from it.\\

Does this mean that the conquerers will simply stand there in one place holding up the roof (or whatever) and will never leave that one spot throughout eternity, willa?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/18/11


-micha9344

Your right it is beyond mine and every other Christians understanding!

The one who conquers I will make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will never depart from it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God (the new Jerusalem that comes down out of heaven from my God), and my new name as well>Revelation 3:12

Here it is, God the son has a God even when at Gods right hand! Seems to contradict the verse you used.
---willa5568 on 7/17/11


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then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father...For God has put all things in subjection under his feet...When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all. 1Corinthians 15:23-28

GOD puts all things under Jesus'(Son of God) feet who will be subject to GOD that GOD may be all in all. "God the Son" will give up his "co-equality" and be subordinate to God the Father who for some reason is said to be his God?

Yes this is a mystery!
---willa5568 on 7/17/11


Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him [are] called, and chosen, and faithful.
1 Timothy 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, [who is] the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords,
-willa5568 is correct about 'only one', but incorrect in his conclusion of Jesus and God being seperate, at least in the sense that is beyond his understanding at this time.
"While the three Persons are distinguished, they are not separated...Now do you understand?..Glory to Jesus Christ!"-Cluny on 7/12/11
I see no fault in Cluny's answer...
---micha9344 on 7/17/11


This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior...For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time> 1Timothy 2:3-7

God is savior trough a mediator, Christ Jesus who is a man that gave himself a ransom. It also says there is ONE God and ONE mediator between God and man. If Jesus is God then he mediates for himself and can not be between God and man. God and Jesus are two intities separate from each other. Jesus is a man as it says countless times and is never called
---willa5568 on 7/16/11


Why is it wrong saying it speaks of Jesus?

First it says the ONLY sovereign/potentate. Potentate according to Webster means- a person who posses great power or sway, sovereign, an emperor, king or monarch. Exalting him not only above earthly princes and potentates, but above the highest of the celestial hierarchy. Sovereign- Supreme in power, possessing supreme dominion, as a sovereign ruler of the universe

This Jesus cannot be considering God and Jesus are separated and this word refers to a "he"

Second it says "he" has immortality Alone. Jesus and God being separate, only one can have immortality alone.

reading in a literal sense as we should, it can be no other way
---willa5568 on 7/16/11


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I agree with Bill_willa6989 that it is Jesus and who if as written is seated next to God, he is in that light.
Christians wait on Christ as Lord, therefore Sovereign to us, "...dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto, whom no man hath seen, nor can see...". The light is God or His radiance:

1 John 1:5 "This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all."
---Nana on 7/15/11


1 Timothy 6:16 Who only hath IMMORTALITY, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto, NO MAN HATH SEEN, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Jesus has been seen: John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus...
John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me,

The Holy Spirit has been seen:
John 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

BUT THE FATHER HAS NOT BEEN SEEN John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
---francis on 7/15/11


Bill-will, your answer is correct. The use of those words are given to both, The Father and the Son. Many passages link Christ with the name Jehovah. And Christ is also identified with Elohim of the Old T. He also identifies with the title Adoni meaning Lord. It is also important to say that in the Old T. He appeared as the "Angel of the Lord" Was not a created angel, but manifest as an Angel. The Second Person is the visible God of the New Testament. Neither the Father nor the Spirit is characteristically revealed in bodiy and visible form. While the Father's voice is heard from heaven, and the Holy Spirit is seen descending in the form of a dove, Christ, the Second Person, is the full manifestation of God in visible form.
---Mark_V. on 7/15/11


It refers to the one true and living God, three persons being: the Father, the Son - Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. Deuteronomy 10:17.
---Glenn on 7/14/11


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francis, I agree, the One spoken of in 1 Tim. 6:16 is God the Father. You gave one reason and another is (v. 6:15 ). "Which He will manifest in His own time" Jesus had already told us He did not know the time. A time only known to Him, the Father, that God established in eternity past for Christ to return (Mark 13:32, Acts 1:7). "Potentate" this word comes from a Gr. word group that basically means "power" but here it is best translated "Sovereign" God is absolute sovereign and omnipotently rules everything everywhere. So Paul used a title used by Christ ( Rev. 17:14, 19:16). "Whom no man has seen or can see" No one can see God in His full glory (Ex. 33:20, Is 6:1-5).
---Mark_V. on 7/14/11


It looks like it means Jesus. It says He is the "only Potentate". And God our Father raised Him up to be Lord of all > our Father has made Jesus to be the one Lord of all, the only Potentate, except He does not rule over our Heavenly Father >

"For 'He has put all things under His feet.' But when He says 'all things are put under Him,' it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted." (1 Corinthians 15:27)

So, Jesus is the only Potentate, except He is under our Father who put Him on the throne.
---Bill_willa6989 on 7/14/11


Cluny,

To continue my point. You agree that it speaks of the Father. Now it says here, "which in His own time he shall shew--the blessed and only potentate(Sovereign), King of kings, Lord of lords, who alone has immortality..."

Considering it speaks of the Father who would be the "he" then does that not mean the Father is the only Sovereign, the King of kings, Lord of Lords, has immortality alone, dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see to whom be honor and power everlasting. And being that the Father is these things, how can another be included or equal at anytime if He is the "only", even Jesus Christ?
---willa5568 on 7/14/11


1 Timothy 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto, whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom [be] honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Tis verse can only refer to God.( THE FATHER) Since many have seen the Lord Jesus,and many have seen the holy Spirit. But no man is yet to see the father
---francis on 7/14/11


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Cluny,

My dear friend, he said that it referred to the "incarnate" Christ which most certainly distorts the passage to fit his doctrine. Either Jesus has immortality alone or God does, their is a distinction between the two which makes it impossible to join them when "he" is used referring to the only Sovereign and what follows to the next verse. In the beginning of the letter Paul makes this distinction as well saying "grace, mercy and peace from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord" and even in the first verse he begins this showing God and Jesus are not equal. Why does it never say anywhere "from God the Father and God the Son"? Wouldn't that be the proper thing to do if Jesus was God?
---willa5568 on 7/14/11


\\that's a good destortion of what's written. It says "and before Jesus Christ, who witnessed the good confession". \\

How is a direct quote of the verse a distortion, willa?

Here is the entire verse in KJV:

1 Timothy 6:13
I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession,

Indeed it DOES that that Jesus made His confession before Pontius Pilate.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/13/11


Mark,

that's a good destortion of what's written. It says "and before Jesus Christ, who witnessed the good confession". In no way is he saying anything about a incarnate Christ. And whether you agree or not doesn't change what it says. This continues on to say "that he will reveal in his own time, who is the only Sovereign.."
So the question remains, who is HE that is the only Sovereign, who has immortality alone, who dwells in unapproachable light. Whether as you say, this is the incarnate Christ or "the man Christ Jesus", who ever HE is can be the only Sovereign. According to what you say God is three he's in one what, God is not one person but three. So who is this HE(one person).
---willa5568 on 7/13/11


Willa, it was after the resurrection. And was speaking about how the incarnated Christ "who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate"
And yes, He is God and man, He is seated next to the Father and is in bodly form. He resurrected in bodly form. You also said, "I understand very well what is being said and do not have to make up a reason to justify what I say."
But that is exactly what you are doing, giving a reason why you interpret the Word the way you do. And you will continue to be in unbelief concerning the deity of Christ until the Spirit, who is also God reveals it to you.
---Mark_V. on 7/13/11


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Mark,

First this is after the resurrection. So either Jesus is a man still or God or still God man. His charge was before both God and Jesus separating the two since it says "he" when referring to who the only Sovereign, has immortality alone and so on. So either God has immortality alone or Jesus has immortality alone. I understand very well what is being said and do not have to make up a reason to justify what I say. This says plainly, Jesus is not God. the Father is God, Jesus is Lord Messiah, king of Israel anointed by God who worked through him.
---willa5568 on 7/12/11


The immortal Jesus (God) died on Calvary???
Either He just pretended to die and you are still in sin...or...Jesus is/was not immortal and therefore not Almighty God!
Which???
---1st_cliff on 7/12/11


Willa, the reason you don't understand the passage is because you do not take into consideration that the incarnate Jesus, speaks from a human perspective and rarely did He demonstrate His Omnipotence, Omniscience or His Omnipresence. While incarnated He was subject to the Father. The passage, "I urge you in the sight of God" ( God who is Spirit and is everywhere,) and "and before Christ Jesus" ( the incarnate human person,) "who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate"
But this does nothing for you, since you do not believe in the incarnation of Christ. As long as you do not believe this, then no one can help you. You need for the Spirit to reveal it to you.
---Mark_V. on 7/12/11


1Tim 6:13-16 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and [before] Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession, That thou keep [this] commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: Which in his times he shall shew, [who is] the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords, Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto, whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom [be] honour and power everlasting. Amen.
-Jesus-immortality?, everlasting power?, dwelling in the light?
Yes!!
1John 1:1-5 Jesus is the eternal life? with God the light?
John 1:3 in the Word was life?
John 1:9 the true Light? God?
---micha9344 on 7/12/11


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These verses are a perfect example of how well Paul in his wolfes clothing has deceived the sheep. He talks and talks and talks and doesn't himself know what he is yacking about and you poor souls are left trying to figure it out. At this point in his ministry Paul is boiling mad and his demon is tormenting him and he is spouting nonsense.

Look at 2nd Tim 1:15 and he tells us plainly that ALL in Asia have turned away from him....hmmm, wonder why that happened.
---barb on 7/12/11


Willa5568 - I am not saying that God does not get the glory, however, in this passage of scripture it spacificly mentions King of Kings and Lord of Lords - who is Jesus Christ (the 2nd part of the Godhead - God the Son). It does NOT refer to God the Father or God the Holy Spirit, but ONLY God the Son (Jesus Christ).
---Leslie on 7/12/11


Great answer Cluny! One of the best I've ever seen!
---Mary on 7/12/11


vs 15--which in His own times He shall...

Cluny,

That does not answer the question. It says I charge you before God AND Jesus Christ. Who is the HE that is the only Sovereign and that which follows. "He" is one person and the only person according to this that is the ONLY Sovereign. He begins in the opening "from God our Father AND and Jesus Christ our Lord. It is either God our Father or Jesus Christ our Lord. Which is it?
---willa5568 on 7/12/11


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willa, Jesus IS God, as much as is the Father.

Where the Father is there is the Son and the Holy Spirit.

While the three Persons are distinguished, they are not separated.

Now do you understand?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/12/11


Cluny,

no I don't. Can you answer the question?
---willa5568 on 7/12/11


Jesus IS God Incarnate, willa.

Did you think He didn't exist before the Incarnation?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/12/11


Leslie,

So Jesus is the ONLY sovereign, has immortality ALONE and eternal dominion and honor are to be given to, not God who is mentioned as a seperate person from Jesus? Please explain how you came to this conclusion
---willa5568 on 7/12/11


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If you study it, it says who is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords - this refers to Jesus Christ.
---Leslie on 7/12/11


Reba, John 10:30 does not mean sameness, it means a unity of purpose, the clarification in is in John Chapter 17.
---Blogger9211 on 7/12/11


God & Jesus are 2 of the 3 in one God. They are the same. You cannot divide them, they are one.John 10:30-I and my Father are one.
---Reba on 7/12/11


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