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Christian's Embrace Evolution

Is there any reason why a Christian should embrace the Evolution Myth in order to help explain Creation? If not, why do so many do it?

Moderator - It's done due to lack of knowledge of what evolution teaches. Once a person truly understands what evolution teaches, it would be difficult for them to believe in that myth regardless if they were a Christian or not.

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 ---jerry6593 on 7/15/11
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Therefore it is nonsense to claim these layers are 250 to 550 million years old.
---Warwick on 7/21/11

Agree with bending of hot rock.
GOD's clock is different than ours.
All rock is old as the universe,our earth scientically appears to be part of it.

The language on "heavens", stars is vague enough to cover an older universe than earths creation of days. It's possible we have a young earth made of older material. Possible being the key word. Jury is still out on proof. One doesn't have to bind oneself doctrinally to the unknown either way. Unless it glues a doctrine together.
---Trav on 7/22/11


Gordon:

I have NEVER ONCE in any of these discussions said that I do NOT believe that God could create them in 72 hours. What I DO repeatedly say is that the Bible does not say, ONE WAY OR OTHER, whether the first 3 days were 24 hour days or not, as our "normal" way of measuring days (i.e. relative to the sun) was not available during those three days.

Many people err by believing the Bible says something, when it, in fact, does not. I am merely trying to be precise here.

Saying something is not specified is a far cry from saying it is false.
---StrongAxe on 7/22/11


Jerry, Because it's human nature to deny the Truth about GOD. The more we know about GOD, the more accountable we are before HIM on Judgment Day, including an accounting for our sin and lack of Obedience to GOD. I know that may sound simplistic to some people. But, that is the Truth. The simple Truth. So simple that a child could understand it. "Religious" men, who do not accept GOD just as HE is, end up COMPLICATING any given Issue about GOD rather than accepting the simple Truth!
---Gordon on 7/22/11


Warwick, if God is outside of time in Psalms and 2 Peter, why is He not outside of time in Genesis?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/22/11


Gordon, you call that a process?

I favor the story about a god making the earth out of mud with his hands.

BTW, who created god? Or, if he was eternal, what was he doing until he decided to make everything with his mind?
---atheist on 7/22/11




Ge 1:16 And God made two great lights, the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night he made the stars also.

It is really a matter of interpretation as to how one views evolution.

Since light from most of the stars takes days (or years) to reach the earth and be seen, it is probable that God created most of the universe prior to creation of the earth and could not have created them on the 4th day alone.

The Genesis record is really lacking in any detail to make any conclusion apart from the view that God was the creator.

The Bible should not be considered a scientific textbook as it is far too brief for any scientific conclusion.
---leej on 7/22/11


StrongAxe, You refuse to believe that GOD created all the different kinds of vegetation, all of the different living creatures, including human beings, and then insects and whatever, within the last 72 hours of the first 6 Days of the Creation Week. That means you do not trust that all GOD has to do is SPEAK something into existence. GOD said "Let there be light!", and instantly, light appeared! All GOD had to do was think of one species of a dog, in HIS Mind, and then SPEAK that dog into existence. So, GOD could do all that in a matter of MINUTES. And, minutes into hours, to form all of the various animal species. YOU (try to) put GOD in this little box, because of your misunderstanding of His Creation Process. OR, a mistrust in it.
---Gordon on 7/22/11


Warwick:

Of course, "day" used anywhere else is an "ordinary day". However, the first three days of Genesis were hardly "ordinary", were they?

On the other hand, there is no indication that later days (such as in Number 7) were any different from "ordinary" days (other than the day the sun stood still over Gibeon).
---StrongAxe on 7/21/11


Cluny your answer on 'day' is incorrect.

Neither Psalm 90 or 2 Peter 3:8 has 'day' coupled with a number "...With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day." This does not say 'one day' is a thousand years or a thousand years 'one day'. It says God is outside of time. "...not slow in keeping his promise as some understand slowness."

There are three meanings of day:

1) 'time' or 'when' e.g. when my father was alive, in my fathers time.

2) Daylight- e.g. I gardened all day.

3) 24hrs when coupled with a number e.g. "For in 6 days the Lord made the heavens and the earth."

Maybe you would like to answer my question regarding Numbers ch. 7?
---Warwick on 7/22/11


Cluny & Axey: I still can't understand WHY you guys fight so hard to undermine the validity of the Bible when you both claim to be Bible-believing Christians. It makes more sense to me to search for the ways that science confirms the Bible, rather than searching for the ways the Bible can be distorted to confirm some man-made theory of questionable scientific pedigree.

Second Request: Can either of you name a single thing that you personally know about Evolution that's true?
---jerry6593 on 7/22/11




Just in case anyone did not get my point about the Kaibab Upwarp, I will explain.

The evolutionary/long-ages story says the different thick layers of sedimentary rock (e.g. Kaibab Limestone and Tapeats Sandstone) at the Kaibab Upwarp were deposited between 550 and 250 million years ago.

But, a BIG but, these rock layers are now bent 90 degrees, without cracking.

As anyone knows rock cracks if bent. The absence of cracking proves these layers were bent when still wet and 'plastic.'

Sediment hardens into rock in a short period of time. Therefore it is nonsense to claim these layers are 250 to 550 million years old.

There goes 550 million years. In comes 'recent' deposition and bending.
---Warwick on 7/21/11


\\We know 'day' coupled with a number means 24hr day. In Genesis 1 day is used with a number.\\

Do we? Does it?

In Psalm 90/89LXX and 2 Peter, "day" is used with "1000 years" when talking about God.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/21/11


StrongAxe, Gordon puts it well "YOU'RE making it complicated."

We know 'day' coupled with a number means 24hr day. In Genesis 1 day is used with a number. "Day' is used with a number 410 times outside of Genesis and it always means an ordinary day.

In the appropriately named book of numbers at chapter 7 vs. 11 We see "Each day one leader is to bring his offering..."

What follows is "on the first day, the second day....the twelth day.

You don't like answering questions but I have one. It is a leading question as an honest answer will show the truth.

Question: In Numbers 7 what is the length of these days? If you say 24hr days ,why?

If a different length, why?
---Warwick on 7/21/11


It is quite bizarre but you seem to think Darwins evolutionary theory is separate from Darwin himself!

His theory is, at its core, and still is, ultimately racist. What Darwin predicted, as an integral part of his theory, is that black people, who he called animals which only look human, would be exterminated by his socalled superior races. Hitler liked this and applied it to Jews, Gypsies and others (calling them untermensch-sub humans) who were exterminated in their millions.

For Darwinian reasons Hitler turned his back on the black American athlete Jessie Owens.
---Warwick on 7/21/11


StrongAxe, GENESIS 1:5 says "And GOD called the light 'Day', and the evening He called 'Night'. And the evening and the morning were the FIRST DAY." That would be, by all logical reasoning, a 24-hour period of time. A Morning and an Evening (period of daylight and the period of darkness)together, make a whole 24-hour day. And that "first Day" sets off the pattern for the rest of the following 6 Days of the Creation Week. And there are no other Verses in GENESIS which show a change in the length of time in the remaining 6 Days of the Creation Week. The length of Creation Days are simple. YOU'RE making it complicated.
---Gordon on 7/21/11


Warwick:

The Bible says how to recognize a false prophet- his predictions that do not come true. It says nothing about how he made those predictions.

Darwin wrote "The Origin of Species" and other things. Marx wrote "Das Kapital" and other things. Einstein discovered Relativity, and other things. Just as it is inappopriate to criticize Relativity base on what Einstein said about Quantum Mechanics, it is equally inappropriate to criticize evolution based on what Darwin wrote on other subjects.

Exodus 20:8-11 mentions days, but says NOTHING about lengths of days. You can argue days 4 and onwards are 24 hours BECAUSE we get light from the sun, but that assumption was NOT true on days 1-3.
---StrongAxe on 7/21/11


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Any Christian must know all humans are created equal, in God's image. ---Warwick on 7/21/11

It's probable in many ways...but, you will eternally have defining scripture to climb over and around. Bring a long rope.

Deuteronomy 10:15
Only the LORD had a delight in thy fathers to love them, and he chose their seed after them, even you above all people, as it is this day.

Deuteronomy 14:2
For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.
Whether you like it or not.
---Trav on 7/21/11


To me it makes perfect sence. Where better can we see the hand of god. Big bang - Let there be light so forth and so on. There doesn't need to be a conflict between science and Christianity. Who do you thing created science
---David on 7/21/11


StrongAxe, you wrote "Why do you call Darwin a "false prophet"? "

I call him a false prophet because that which he prophesied was based on false assumptions, that his socalled 'primitive' people were animals that only appeared to be human. Any Christian must know all humans are created equal, in God's image. The idea of 'primitive people' is a false evolutionary concept.

"in fact, I don't recall him ever predicting any future events AT ALL."

I simply showed you he did.

The modern evolutionary theory is called Neo Darwinian Evolution and you say what Darwin wrote is "not part of evolutionary theory."

I suppose Carl Marx' writings have nothing to do with Marxism either?
---Warwick on 7/21/11


Strongaxe, am I correct that light does not determine the length of a 24hr day?

Genesis 1:3-5-God defines what He means by 'evening and morning' day. He applies this exact formula to describe all the 6 creation days.

God confirms His Creation days are ordinary 24hr days in Exodus 20:8-11 saying He created in 6-days, rested the 7th so His people would work 6-days, rest the 7th. To suggest the exact wording does not mean they are of the same length is ilogical. The very idea means language is meaningless!

The rules of grammar assure everybody knows what I mean by-I work for 6 days and rest 1 day.

Therefore on what Scriptural, gramatical or logical basis can you say I do not mean I work 6 days...? NONE!
---Warwick on 7/21/11


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StrongAxe, when Christians accept false long-ages beliefs as fact they begin reinterpreting Scripture through man-made antiBiblical ideas.

The long-ages belief is founded upon untestable assumptions.

That canyons take ages to form is an assumption. The very large canyon at Mt St Helens was formed quickly-people witnessed it!

Some say the sedimentary layers of the Grand Canyon were deposited over vast ages, then eroded over vast ages. Evidence shows these layers of sedimentary rock were all deposited quickly-there is no evidence of a time-gap between the layers.

At the Kaibab Upwarp the many layers (suupposedly millions of years old) were bent at 90 degrees, before they became rock.
---Warwick on 7/21/11


Strongaxe,

If things can evolve by themselves, then you are admitting that they create themselves. That is, there is a mechanism in nature which turns frogs to philosophers and amoebas to Amadeuses. So if nature can do that, then nature can create the mechanism. How then can you say we then know God did it, because on your account, he didn't, nature did. The atheist is therefore right.

Your explanation makes no sense..if you're a Christian.
---Marc on 7/21/11


Cluny: "which lead me to suspect that they are not really undersood"

Now why do you think that is? Could it be that Evolution is nothing but smoke and mirrors, or is it your inability to explain it in a rational manner? You could start by providing one single fact about Evolution that you personally know to be true.
---jerry6593 on 7/21/11


Warwick:

If Darwin's prophecies are fulfilled, he isn't a false prophet, is he?

Darwin's personal views are not part of evolutionary theory, any more than Conquistadores slaughtering Aztecs is part of the teachings of Jesus.

If a canyon shows evidence of erosion, it doesn't matter WHAT caused it - it still takes a very long time to erode.

My "view of biblical days" is NOT that they are of some length other than 24 hours - merely that the Bible is NOT specific about how long they are.
1) Please state which chapter and verse specifies the length of the first 3 days in Genesis 1
2) Please state preciesly which grammar rules my view violates
3) Please state preciesly which logic rules my view violates
---StrongAxe on 7/20/11


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I don't know why some people have such difficulty accepting--or even refuse to believe--that God works through His own laws.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/20/11

Accurately addressed. Amen.

Trying to climb in another way is the whyfore and therefore.
Perhaps in not recognizing natural laws, placed by GOD...similarly Laws of GOD.

Ignoring changing the Covenants or Prophets an all that is attached to them.
Sometimes the clearest evidence can be by omission.

John 10:1
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
---Trav on 7/20/11


\\Moderator - It's done due to lack of knowledge of what evolution teaches. Once a person truly understands what evolution teaches, it would be difficult for them to believe in that myth regardless if they were a Christian or not.\\

The real question is how many Christians know what the evolutionary theories (there are more than one) actually say. I've seen them parodied and misquoted in these discussions, which lead me to suspect that they are not really undersood.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/20/11


StrongAxe, that canyons show evidence of erosion is observable fact. That the canyon itself was eroded by the river which currently flows through it is assumption.

Your view on the length of creation 'days' is not Biblical but is contradicted by Scripture, and grammar, and logic.

I never fail to be amazed how Christian will so easily reject the word of God.

You write "Christians who don't believe in evolution believe in a smaller God than those who do." This is meaningless because you do not define what you mean by 'evolution.' Remember you criticized me for defining my terms.

Natural selection or the development of a creature from the fertilized egg also is not evolution.
---Warwick on 7/20/11


StrongAxe, Darwins evil prophecy has been fulfilled in many countries where native people were decimated because of Darwins doctrine. He described many of these native peoples as animals who only appear to be men. For this reason they were hunted and killed as animals.

I cannot imagine why any Christian would involve themselves with, and believe, such a violent racist philosophy.

BTW it is not light that determines day-length but the time taken for the earth to complete one rotation. This is the same whether there is light or not, obviously. You haven't thought this through.
---Warwick on 7/20/11


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StrongAxe, I appreciate what you are saying.

I will disagree about the spontaneous generation of life. But I do believe that life reflects and acts according to the laws of physics, chemistry, and biology that God Himself set up.

I don't know why some people have such difficulty accepting--or even refuse to believe--that God works through His own laws.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/20/11


\\ Crazy Uncle Charlie attended a witchcraft ceremony in S. America just prior to his "epiphany" on the Galapogos Islands.\\

And here we see the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.

\\EGW never attended such ceremonies or contradicted the Bible as you non-Orthodox do!\\

Yes, she did. She said that God instructs people more earnestly (her word) in her own rantings than in the pages of the Bible itself.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/20/11


\\we can, that God created everything if everything's existence is ultimately down to chance mutations, as evolution says it is.\\

Since you brought it up, let me say that this premise I explicitly repudiate, as I have before. I've NEVER said I believe the mutations are chance or random, because I don't.

As Betsy ten Boom said, there is nothing random and there are no ifs in God's world.

NOW do you understand?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/20/11


Marc:

"Heaven and earth declare the glory of God". This means you should be able to look at nature and see how beautiful and wondrously made it is.

If things can evolve by themselves, you can't do this directly. However, you CAN look at the mechanisms by which these take place, and those mechanisms themselves are even MORE beautiful and wondrously made.

Creating the Mona Lisa is impressive. Creating a human who can paint Mona Lisas is more so. Creating a cell that can grow into a human is even more so. Creating laws of physics so chemicals can combine to eventually create life by themselves - that is truly awesome!

Christians who don't believe in evolution believe in a smaller God than those who do.
---StrongAxe on 7/20/11


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Warwick:

Most canyons show evidence of erosion, indicating water flowed through them FIRST.

Exodus 20:8-11 makes NO MENTION of how long days are, much less the first six. Again, you are reading between the lines. Sure, God did not need the sun to light the earth during the first three days, but since it is the SUN that is our measurement (NOT "light", since that also includes the stars (Gen: 1:16-17)), you cannot say for sure that the first three days were 24 hours long.

Also, if you consider that a prophecy by Darwin, you can't say it is false YET, any more than Jesus who predicted his own return (but has not yet done so).
---StrongAxe on 7/20/11


Cluny: You are the one who follows a prophet that peeps and mutters. Crazy Uncle Charlie attended a witchcraft ceremony in S. America just prior to his "epiphany" on the Galapogos Islands. EGW never attended such ceremonies or contradicted the Bible as you non-Orthodox do!


Axey: Yes, Darwin was a prophet of the god of Random Chance, and, as Warwick has shown, he not only explained creation of the past, but predicted the future as well. And, worse yet, you and Cluny apparently hold him in higher esteem than the true prophets of the Bible.
---jerry6593 on 7/20/11


To the Christians who believe in evolution,

I'd like to know how, if evolution is true, one could investigate nature and know from nature, as Paul in Romans 1 says we can, that God created everything if everything's existence is ultimately down to chance mutations, as evolution says it is.
---Marc on 7/19/11


Kevin, it is also true that-Make canyon and a river will flow down it.

At Mt St Helens debris from the volcano formed into deep sedimantary layers. A later mud flow carved out a canyon 1/40th the size of The Grand Canyon through these sedimentary layers, in a few days. Now the north fork of the Tuttle river flows down this canyon. But the canyon was there before the river!

So make a canyon and a river will flow down it.
---Warwick on 7/19/11


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StrongAxe, I am talking of language of convenience, as everyone knows what a 24hr day is! I use 24hr day as it is a convenient and concise way of describing an earth-rotation, evening, and morning day.

We do know length of 6 days of creation as God has defined them as being of the same 'evening and morning length.

God does not need the sun to light the earth.

He confirms their length in Exodus 20:8-11. If they, like you, did not understand/accept what He meant they would have worked upon the Sabbath and been executed!
---Warwick on 7/19/11


StrongAxe,"At some future period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilised races of man will almost certainly exterminate, and replace, the savage races throughout the world. At the same time the anthropomorphous apes will no doubt be exterminated. The break between man and his nearest allies will then be wider, for it will intervene between man in a more civilised state, as we may hope, even than the Caucasian, and some ape as low as a baboon, instead of as now between the negro or Australian and the gorilla." Charles Darwin, The Descent of Man, 2nd edition, New York, A L. Burt Co., 1874, p. 178"

"Anthropomorphous apes?" i.e. his 'primitive' races who appear to be human but aren't!
---Warwick on 7/19/11


create a river,a canyon evolves...
---kevin5443 on 7/19/11


\\jerry6593:

Why do you call Darwin a "false prophet"? I don't recall him ever predicting any future events that failed to come to pass. In fact, I don't recall him ever predicting any future events AT ALL.\\

But Ellen Gould White, whose name adds up to 666, surely did make prophecies that did not come to pass--in fact, prophecies that failed.

She herself said, "My work bears either the stamp of God or that of Satan."

Christians know it bears the stamp of Satan.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/19/11


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Cluny: ....Is it because of your blind faith in your proven false prophet Charles Darwin?

It is insanity to try to reconcile mutually contradicting dogmas. So what does that make you?
---jerry6593 on 7/19/11

What does it make you....who can't convince "evo" believers otherwise?? You've got a pop gun with no bullets. A sparkler that don't sparkle. Here's the match. Sparkle, sparky.

You and puff don't have enough witnesses yourself, or you could convert the world,hero.

I've never seen Cluny post that he was Darwinist....can you copy the post he stated it?
Luke 11:54
Laying wait for him, and seeking to catch something out of his mouth, that they might accuse him.
---Trav on 7/19/11


jerry6593:

Why do you call Darwin a "false prophet"? I don't recall him ever predicting any future events that failed to come to pass. In fact, I don't recall him ever predicting any future events AT ALL.
---StrongAxe on 7/19/11


\\Is it because of your blind faith in your proven false prophet Charles Darwin?\\

Where did you get the idea I followed Charles Darwin?

All I've said is that I believe that God works through natural processes that He Himself decreed--something that you obviously refuse to believe.

It is insanity to try to reconcile mutually contradicting dogmas. Evolution, in any form, is in direct contradiction to the Bible, and hence is NOT ORTHODOXY. So what does that make you?\\

You follow a medium who peeped, muttered, and gave false prophecies in the name of Jesus and you say that **I** am insane?

Glory to Jesus Christ.
---Cluny on 7/19/11


Cluny: Why do you claim Orthodoxy and still cling to multi-million year Evolution?

Is it because of your blind faith in your proven false prophet Charles Darwin?

It is insanity to try to reconcile mutually contradicting dogmas. Evolution, in any form, is in direct contradiction to the Bible, and hence is NOT ORTHODOXY. So what does that make you?
---jerry6593 on 7/19/11


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Warwick:

It means, between two descriptions of a day (24 hours, or evening to evening), the second is more accurate, as even though they agree in most cases, there was one where they DID differ (Joshua 10:13-14), and there, evening-to-evening was true, but 24 hours was not. So, when in doubt, we should use the second definition.

Also, as the earth slows, we adjust the first definition, but not the second. In fact, our 24-hour day is merely an observable phenomenon based on the alternating light patterns from the sun, and not the definition of a day. Since the sun itself was not present during the first several days of Genesis, we cannot know for sure how long those days were, as morning/evening cycle was not set by the sun.
---StrongAxe on 7/19/11


StrongAxe you have it your way and I will do it my way so as to avoid confusion. We all know that a 24hr day is one rotation of the earth. It was from day one, and still is today. The earth's is slowing down so it is not exactly 24 hours, and probably never was. However for convenience we call it a 24hr day.

Joshua 10:13 reads"...The sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day."

As I understand it the writer is not calling the extended light and the night a day but that the sun stood still for about a day.

But anyway what has this extraordinary day have to do with the length of the many thousands of days since creation?
---Warwick on 7/18/11


So, how long is a day (rotation of the Earth) in relationship to another star?
Do not stars appear laterally at the same time every day?
Do we not pinpoint stars based on their coordinates from our axis and the time of day?
What has the Sun to do with this?
Yes, I know season affects this as well, but only longitudinally(sic), as does the Sun.
Even the stars, by most interpretations were made on day 4, yet Earth had a light source and was rotating to have a morning and an evening, unless some here are suggesting that the light source moved around the Earth, but I think that theory left with Copernicus and Keplar, at least from a Sun standpoiint...
---micha9344 on 7/18/11


Warwick:

You say they are "obviously" 24 hours, but I disagree that it is obvious. The reason to not call them 24 hours? Because the Bible doesn't call them that. Why not just call them what the Bible does? Why change it?

And you have still never once explained my counter-example - the day the sun stood still over Gibeon. That was a day that was very specifically made LONGER (i.e. longer than 24 hours), yet it was STILL called "a day".

24 hours was never the definition of a day - merely an observed phenomenon for most days (but not all of them).
---StrongAxe on 7/18/11


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StrongAxe,the Theory of Evolution concerns one kind of creature evolving into a completely different kind of creature. But when someone uses 'evolution' how do we know they don't mean natural selection/adaptation which some falsely call 'evolution?'

Regarding 'days' the days of Genesis 1 are obviously evening (the end of light) and morning (the end of dark) days. This is confirmed by the finger of God on tablets of stone where He command His followers work for six of these days and rest the 7th. Why? "For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day..."

They are obviously 24hr days so why not call them that?
---Warwick on 7/18/11


The real question is why do you cling to a psychic who has been proven to be a false prophet?
Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/18/11

Him motto be: if i make any small...me feelim big.
You won't find him dwelling where the scriptural witnesses (prophets)dwell or testify. Rather where the topic is open ended or gray enough to hold a debate. Which he presumes he wins,by opinion, notably unspiced without scripture. A modern preacher pumping Richard Smalley....who probably reasoned like you Cluny. You just need a Scientific title Cluny he'd brag about your friendship.
Lev 26:9
For I will have respect unto you, make you fruitful, multiply you, and establish my covenant with you.
---Trav on 7/18/11


Warwick:

I know what YOU mean by day. However, if you THEN imply that the Bible ALSO means the same thing, you are reading something into the text that is not there.

24 hours is merely an observable phenomenon based on the position of the sun, NOT the other way around. In the one Biblically documented example where the two differed (i.e. the day the sun stood still over Gibeon), the day was STILL based on the sun's position, but NOT 24 hours.

Similarly, YOU may use the term Evolution to mean "microbe to man", yet that does not give you the right to assume that others necessarily use the word to mean the same thing, and then criticize them for it.
---StrongAxe on 7/18/11


\\Cluny: Why do you claim Orthodoxy and still cling to Darwinism?\\

Where did you get the idea that I clung to Darwinism? There are more theories of evolution than his, or did you know that?

The real question is why do you cling to a psychic who has been proven to be a false prophet?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/18/11


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Alan: Thanks. Maybe if we keep bringing it up, the Mods will change the 75-post limit. I still favor an inactivity cut-off time limit.

Cluny: Why do you claim Orthodoxy and still cling to Darwinism?

1Ki 18:21 ... How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if [Darwin], then follow him.

Perhaps you should close with "Glory to Darwin!".
---jerry6593 on 7/18/11


StrongAxe, I use 'microbe-to-man evolution' to make sure people understand what I mean. I didn't invent this commonly used term. Some evolutionist activists have defined evolution as 'change' and then say-therefore as Natural Selection/adaption is change evolution is fact. However natural selection is a conservative process which does not create the new genetic information, obviously necessary to effect microbe-to-man evolution i.e.change one kind of creature into a completely different kind.

As regards 'days', again I use it to make it clear what I mean. Everyone knows what a 24hr day is. Geographically it is the time taken for a location on the earth to rotate back to the position it was, in relation to the sun, 24hrs previously.
---Warwick on 7/18/11


Cluny I am sure I am not the only one who considers it strange that you boast about Orthodoxy, and your place in it, but hold to the definitely unorthodox theistic evolution?

So much for orthodoxy!
---Warwick on 7/18/11


There is no real Christian whom embraces the evolution lie. Holy Scripture reads: "In the beginning God created heaven and earth." Gen.1:1. And unholy lie says, "In the beginning earth evolved"...which is total falsehood, and which many of those sinners whom profess such crud, they themselves do not even believe this lie themselves.
---Eloy on 7/17/11


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\\n reality any form of microbe to man evolution places death, disease and suffering before sin. But Scripture says death, disease and suffering casme after Adam's sin. \\

Death for human certain did come after Adam's fall.

But where does the Bible say that death for other species did? Please give book, chapter, and verse.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/17/11


Warwick:

I don't recall Cluny ever mentioning "microbe to man" evolution. You are the one who continuously bring up that particular phrase.

You often insert words into a discussion that are not mentioned by anyone else, and then argue about them. For example, in the many discussions we have had about the length of the Days of Creation, you keep insisting that the Bible speaks of "24 hour days", even though the Bible never even once uses such terminology, or even anything close to it.
---StrongAxe on 7/17/11


Cluny if I understand correctly you say that Christians believing in evolution is a non-issue?

In reality any form of microbe to man evolution places death, disease and suffering before sin. But Scripture says death, disease and suffering casme after Adam's sin. The idea that God used evolution therefore undermines the gospel. Surely this isn't a non issue but the big issue.

What is bigger than the truth of the gospel?
---Warwick on 7/17/11


Warwick:

While one cannot scientifically prove whether or not existing species did arise one way or other (neither evolution nor special creation may be scientifically verified), one can test whether or not the mechanisms that evolution requires exist.

For example, if species evolved randomly, one would expect similar species to possess vestigial organs that currently serve no purpose (the human appendix), or features in one species could be re-purposed in others (reptile jaw bones vs. human ear bones, mammalian fingers vs. bird wings.) If species were designed ex nihilo, there would be no need for these, unless the designer were deliberately trying to pretend that evolution was at work.
---StrongAxe on 7/17/11


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Jerry ... I agree with you that as soon as a blog gets interesting, the Mods close it down.

And some here take advantage of that. They see the discussions are exposing the waekness of their argument. So they bombard the blog with post after post, so that others don't get a chance to contribute before the blog is closed.

Closure at 75 should be selective and properly considered, not authomatic
---alan8566_of_uk on 7/17/11


Scott,

that is an great explanation! There are several different idea's about evolution macro being the extreme and micro being proven by science and nature itself. Macro evolution is a theory that has yet to be proven by empirical evidence which is what is necessary for a theory to be accepted as scientific.
---willa5568 on 7/16/11


\\(3) To prove the falsity of anyone who claims to be Orthodox while adhering to unorthodox Evolution.\\

I have referred you to the article on orthodoxwiki about evolution. Have you read it?

To summarize, it's a non-issue--on either side.

\\(5) But mainly, to find out why this subject irritates you so.\\

Your monomania on this subject doesn't bother me at all, but your obsessive fixation on it says more about you than about me.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/16/11


Cluny: "Why do you keep on bringing up this same question over and over, jerry?"

Several reasons.

(1) To convince the Moderators to leave active blogs active beyond 75 entries until they no longer get responses.

(2) To prove the insanity of believing conflicting doctrines - Bible Creation vs. the religion of Darwinism.

(3) To prove the falsity of anyone who claims to be Orthodox while adhering to unorthodox Evolution.

(4) To see if anyone can come up with any valid reason for believing Darwin's lie.

(5) But mainly, to find out why this subject irritates you so.
---jerry6593 on 7/16/11


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Donna I know you are genuine however telling a person "In the beginning God created," is not helpfull to someone who believes 'science' has proven Scripture false.

People, especially men, want answers, as Scripture commands "...Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have...."

Romans 1:20 says "For since the creation of the world Gods invisible qualities his eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse." Therefore we are people of faith, but not blind faith.

I am not talking theoretically but from long experience.
---Warwick on 7/15/11


The problem is in the phrase: 'to explain creation' in the question.

You can think a lot of things about Creation 1 and 2, and we have the comments that dinosaurs were in Job but not now, so God MAKES changes.....

I will not argue with someone who says that GOD CREATED an animal and then GOD changed it.

But I can't accept 'it changed without God's action'
---peter on 7/15/11


All one must do is read Genesis. Isn't it wonderful how simple God made everything yet man has made it so complicated.
---shira3877 on 7/15/11


\\No offense Cluny, but I dislike this "definition" of insanity: doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. While it may be insane, it does not define insanity, faulty logic, IMO.\\

Lighten up. It's is an old joke.

Keep in mind, however, that "sane" and "insane" and related words are LEGAL terms, and are not used in psychological, psychiatric, or clinical contexts.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/15/11


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The Theory of Evolution is not, scientifically speaking a Theory, because it cannot be proved or disproved via the scientific method.

It is a changing belief about the past, not fact. It is not about changes in populations of creatures but about how these creatures came about in the first place and how the imagined original life-form evolved to become the vast array of life we see.

From my experience in this field Christians accept evolution having been indoctrinated in it from kindergarten. And attend churches which have not bothered to show their congregations why it is wrong, or the overwhelming evidence for the truth of Genesis creation.

It is a Godless belief which contradicts, and is contradicted by Scripture.
---Warwick on 7/15/11


No offense Cluny, but I dislike this "definition" of insanity: doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. While it may be insane, it does not define insanity, faulty logic, IMO.
---Christina on 7/15/11


jerry, No, a Christian should NOT embrace evolution myth in order to explain creation.

How do you know "so many" do it? And why are you listening to these "so many" people? (just curious).

Here is what you should tell them about Evolution: "In the Beginning GOD created........"

GOD is the beginning, He was and IS and says so Himself.

Tell these people to read their bibles. They are being blinded by satan.
---Donna5535 on 7/15/11


Gen.1:5 God called the light day... 1st day
Gen.1:8 God called the firmament Heaven...2nd day
Gen.1:12 The earth brought forth grass,seed fruit...3rd day
Gen.1:18 Divided light from darkness...4th day
Gen.1:22 created birds, fish etc...5th day
Gen.1:26-31 God created man...6th day
6 whole days for the earth & living things to be created...wow, what a huge process of evolution that had to take place. Just believe what God said. He said it took Him 6 days to create the earth & man so accept it & move on. There's no deep mystery here.
---Reba on 7/15/11


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\\In any case, my beliefs about origins has no effect on my salvation. That's all that matters.
---John.usa on 7/15/11\\

Well put, John.usa.

God will not reveal one thing through the Bible and contradictory facts through the scientific method.

Therefore I am perfectly reasonable in taking a "wait and see" attitude towards this issue. As one early Presbyterian said, "God hath yet more light to break forth from His word."

A childishly literal interpretation of Genesis 1, or any other passage of Scripture, is hardly God's last word.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/15/11


In the scientific community, the term Theory means "a plausible or acceptable general principal or body of principals offered to explain phenomena, e.g., the wave theory of light." It does not mean "speculation" to scientists. In any case, my beliefs about origins has no effect on my salvation. That's all that matters.
---John.usa on 7/15/11


Well put by Cluny and Scott.
---Nana on 7/15/11


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