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Once Saved Always Saved

Once saved, always saved! I was speaking with someone today and they said they believed, "once saved always saved" do you believe this or not?

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christan, inspite of what a person says with their mouth, actions speak louder than their words, and we know them by their fruits whether the tree is Christianed or nonChristian: for them which lie are manifested to be no Christian.
---Eloy on 7/19/11


You said: Belief does not save, but works save.

This contradicts both Paul and James. Paul said we are saved by faith (so that we cannot boast in our works). James said we are saved by faith and works (because the works are proof of our faith). Both emphasized faith. Neither said we are saved by works alone.

What would you say of an unbeliever who nevertheless did great works - for example, a rich atheist philanthropist who builds many hospitals and saves many lives?

Remember, at the final judgment, many will boast to Jesus of their great works, and he will reply:
Matthew 7:23
"And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
---StrongAxe on 7/19/11

Scott if you accepted Jesus was resurrected as a flesh and blood person you would accept Luke 24:37-42 as reality. But you don't.

But then you write "Who questions whether Christ came in the flesh? It's the same flesh that he sacrificed for all mankind."

And you write "Like other invisible spirit beings in the past Jesus certainly had the ability to appear as "flesh and bones" to prove to his disciples that he had been resurrected."

So Jesus says It's me, touch me and see, a spirit does not have flesh and bones and you see I have. And He asked for food to eat.

But you say He was lying. That figures!

You are either deluded or playing word-games, or both.
---Warwick on 7/19/11

Eloy, first of all, my name is christan and NOT christian, though I am one.

You say "I pray that you become a saved born-again Christian"

You make no sense with your remark, Eloy. Is there another kind of Christian that is not saved and not born-again? If there is, how is he a Christian? Do you see how much confusion you are in with your doctrine or even who a Christian is?

Read and learn from the Scripture that there's order in salvation/redemption of a sinner by the grace of God. Scripture simply declares,

"Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified." Romans 8:30
---christan on 7/19/11

Eloy ... I thought you, like me, were a bit observant of words.

Have you not noticed that it is "Christan" who conributes here, not "Christian"?
---pedant on 7/19/11

Scott, you ask "How exactly is one of the three persons in the triune God flesh and blood?"

You would have us believe Jesus was an angel but Hebrews 1:5 and 13 destroy "For to which of the angels did God ever say,You are my Son,..", "To which of the angels did God ever say, Sit at my right hand..."

To none!

Jesus is therefore obviously not any angel.

Jesus, God the Son was with God in eternity,(John 17:5) not as a man but as God who is spirit. Not 3 spirits!

As Romans 9:5 says "..from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all,..

Son of God (spirit) from eternity and Son of man (flesh) from His conception.
---Warwick on 7/19/11

Half truth is lie:
Eph.2:8,9, AND 10:
"WE ARE CREATED in Christ Jesus, ONTO GOOD WORKS, whom God who before prepared, THAT IN THEM WE SHOULD WALK."

Gal.2:16,AND 5:14+ 6:4,7,8:

Rom.9:30-32,AND 3:26-31+ 13:8:
---Eloy on 7/19/11


Re salvation according to the Watchtower is:

'Jehovah God offers you something wonderful everlasting must have faith in Jehovah...However, MORE THAN FAITH IS NEEDED. There must also be works.' (You Can Live Forever In Paradise On Earth, 1982, p. 250)

'What does God require of those who will reside forever upon his Paradise earth?....obey God's associated with God's channel..loyally advocating his Kingdom rule to others.' (WT, 2/15/83, pp. 12-13)

Sounds less like faith and more like works, Scott.
---Marc on 7/19/11

Donna66 on 7/19/11

Good verses, but was Paul really teaching what you think he was teaching?
Can you show me another teacher in the Bible that supports this teaching?
It is not found anywhere in the Gospels of Our Lord Jesus Christ, the foundation of Truth.
If the teaching is not found in the Gospels, and is not supported by any other teacher in the Bible, what does that say about the teaching?
The Gospels of Jesus Christ are the Truth, that which the Lord gave us to measure the teachings in the church.

The "Not by works" teaching as taught in many Protestant churches does not measure up to what the Lord taught.
---David on 7/19/11

Jesus claimed Judas and lost him, as scriptures imply.

---paul on 7/18/11

Judas did believe in Jesus correct, however WHAT exactly did Judas believe. That is what will make or break any deal here.

Judas put his faith in the wrong dispensation and lost. Judas betrayed Jesus because Judas believed Jesus was going to take the throne THEN and overthrow Gentile world power at that time. So did many, as you see in John 6. However Jesus had something else to say...

So it's WHAT Jesus you put your faith in that matters.

Jesus the Lamb of God or
Jesus King of Kings.

Don't make the same mistake Judas made. It's FATAL.
---kathr4453 on 7/19/11

Eloy, I'm sorry you do not understand this Truths. It is vidal to assure your salvation. One reason you think you were born again twice is because you failed the first time, and so this time you say you are sinless this way you don't lose it again, but what you are doing is trying to keep the law again, so you are under the law. And when you failed the first time, you think you were starting again by keeping the law again, but you have failed again when you say what you do to others, by condemning them, still trying to work your way into God's kingdom. You are under the Law Eloy. You will need a third time and then a fourth because you will fail again and again, the reason we all need Christ who kept the law for us believers.
---Mark_V. on 7/19/11

Having said that I did not say there are two Jesus'. However two entirely different programs. FIRST His death and resurrection and then His Kingdom reign. Judas looked for the Kingdom reigh FIRST, not realizing Christ must suffer and die and rise again BEFORE returning as KING in all His risen Glory, with all His Saints and Angels, believing Him to be a fraud when He didn't overthrow the Romans or even appear that He was going to.

95% of OT Prophecy is about the King and the Kingdom Reign, and 5% or less about the Jesus the lamb of God. Isaiah 53 is one, but how many others can you find?

Why do you think they mocked Him with a crown of thorns saying KING OF THE JEWS. It sure didn't say LAMB OF GOD!

---kathr4453 on 7/19/11

"Everlasting/eternal means just that everlasting/eternal.

Jesus death and resurrection secured our salvation."
---kathr4453 on 7/18/11


Galatians 6:7 "Be not deceived, God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap."
Matthew 16:27 "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and then he shall reward every man according to his works."
---Nana on 7/19/11

This question always draws a great amount of interest. The reason being that if O.S.A.S. is trUE that fact would place the denominational churches in a ridiculous position with all their box suppers and other extra activity in order to keep members. Which would you rather be, wonderfully gloriously saved, or a upstanding church member?
---mima on 7/19/11

Backsliding is not an event that happens everytime you mess up.

It is only when you decide to turn from light back to darkness.

Just as Backslidden Israel did when God divorced them.

Not opinion, WORD.
---Paul on 7/19/11

I know, for me to say, I believe everyone has faith, sounds wrong.
However, there is only one body and we are all members of that body.
Now if God is the head of that body.
I have to ask myself does that body which is Christ have faith.

I take your attention to 1Co 12:13 whether you believe it or not.
1Co 12:15 if someone believe they are not part of the body, are they not part of it? The answer has to be they are part of the body!

Well then, who are the ones who are trying to separate you from God? It has to be the devil and all those who would help him.

This is why you must have faith!
---TheSeg on 7/19/11

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Eph 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ...

Rom 9:30-32 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel,... hath not attained to the law of righteousness... Because they sought it not by faith, but by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone,
---Donna66 on 7/19/11

christian, I pray that you become a saved born-again Christian, for then the name "Christian" that you use will no longer be a misnomer, but will be rightly applied.
---Eloy on 7/18/11

"Belief does not save, but works save." Eloy

O boy, I thought I have heard it all but this one is at the top of the pile. Using the epistle of James to justify works "without faith" is nothing short of wicked. MarkV's explanation confirms James's teaching of faith and works with Ephesians 2:10 "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

When God gives His people faith, it will come with good works. Only the unbelievers will use good works to boast before God. But sad to say, it has no faith from God, which makes it "filthy rags" before God.
---christan on 7/18/11

"I always endeavour to answer relevant, on topic questions." Warwick

This is code for "I have no idea how to answer your question(s) so I will ask my own".

Like other invisible spirit beings in the past Jesus certainly had the ability to appear as "flesh and bones" to prove to his disciples that he had been resurrected.

"You...ask "How exactly is one of the three persons in the triune God flesh and blood?" Warwick

This is (IMHO) a great question. What is the answer?

" not acknowledge Jesus as coming in the flesh.." Warwick

Who questions whether Christ came in the flesh? It's the same flesh that he sacrificed for all mankind.
---scott on 7/18/11

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James L and Mark V, you moack because there is no light in you. For that what sinners sinuously call ridiculous and nonsense, God rightly calls excellent and the manifested truth: "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, because they have no light in them."
---Eloy on 7/18/11

James L

1) The law is a image of Gods Holiness which shows mans sin.

2) Sin leads to spiritual death, Adams sin leads to physical death

3)Scriptures agrees to be an example

4)You don't have to gain an inheritance it is granted. And being saved from hell is a profit.
1Co 10:33 Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.

5)Were not worthy of any glory or honor, it is all His.

Most of your reasons are not for the gain of God but for fleshly appeal.

You seek after Holiness for without it no man shall see God.

1 out of 5, not good odds.


Jesus claimed Judas and lost him, as scriptures imply.

---paul on 7/18/11


You know full well Eph 2 is speaking of being saved from deadness of life into newness of Spirit to walk in good works thus allowing us to partake in Christs works on the cross.

Don't partial post, post the whole statement to get the full effect.

Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7 that in the "ages to come" He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

---paul on 7/18/11

Can God Fail in what He does? Answer NEVER !! Since salvation is a the gift OF God, not of works. It is His doing, and what God starts He will finish. Phillippians 1:6
God Chose who would be saved before anything was created. He has predestined an called to salvation those whose names are written in the Book of Life. It is no mystery to God for He knows everything.
---Davido on 7/18/11

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Mark_V. God bless brother. Yes, I do!
I believe everyone has faith, well a measure of faith.
But, its so small in some, they dont even know you have it.
Luk_8:25 Where is your faith?
I take this to heart Mat _6:26.
James, try to made it so clear in 2:14

Rickey, If you agree with me. Then what choose is there?
Look at what youre telling me. They can pick God or nothing!

Why would they pick nothing? Because they dont love God.
Of cause they dont love God, they dont even know God!
They never met the man! Well you know!

You think, because you have a little faith, you can move mountains.
Yes! But, you can also wither a tree.
God bless
---TheSeg on 7/18/11

The whole purpose of the Everlasting/Eternal Covenant is that this Covenant is EVERLSSTING. It's not based on conditions, but on God's everlasting/eternal promises of an everlasting life.

Everlasting/eternal means just that everlasting/eternal.

Jesus death and resurrection secured our salvation.
---kathr4453 on 7/18/11

Scott, I always endeavour to answer relevant, on topic questions.

You fail to stick to the topic-Luke 24:37-42 where Jesus says he is not a spirit but "flesh and bones." And asks for something to eat for obvious reasons.

But you reject his words and ask "How exactly, then, is one of the three persons in the triune God flesh and blood?"

This foolish question shows you have no answer to Luke 24: 37-42. As I have always said, as Scripture says Jesus is fully God and fully man.

It is pertinent for you to read 2 John 1:7 "Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist."
---Warwick on 7/18/11

Eloy and Mark V,

take my analogy a little further.

Suppose the man lives in his car and has ragged clothes, eating out of dumpsters.

He might NEVER show any evidence of having money at all. But he's got all the money he'll ever need, right there in the bank. He's just not "acting" like it.

Faith in Christ - all alone, without any works, totally naked - is what saves.
---James_L on 7/18/11

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Your analogy might fit those who have said a sinner's prayer. But the belief spoken of in the bible is not "believe you have life, and it's yours"

To use the analogy of money, we would need to suppose someone promises to put money in your bank account. As long as you keep saying "I don't believe you will put the money there" you'll never have it.

But if you say "Really? you'll put some money in my account? OK thanks" then he transfer the money. Even if you don't believe the money is there in 5 minutes doesn't change the fact that someone put it in.

The actuality depends on the faithfulness of the one making the promise.
---James_L on 7/18/11

\\If they had faith you would see it by their fruits. Which is the evidence of True Saving Faith.\\
---Mark_V. on 7/18/11

Brother, that statement is just as ridiculous as Eloy's nonsense. You're arguing against him by saying the same thing.

You don't believe faith is enough, but you hide it behind a "fruit" doctrine. There isn't one verse that says works are the inevitable fruit of faith.

You add qualifiers like "genuine" of "spurious" to describe those who either obey their way to heaven or sin into hell

Belief happens to you. "believe by faith" doesn't even make sense because believing IS faith.
---James_L on 7/18/11

Eloy, that is a rediculous statement. No where did you mention believe through faith. Even the devil believes but has no faith. Why don't you give an example of someone who believes through faith, and see how that story comes out. You are talking about people who believe who have no faith. If they had faith you would see it by their fruits. Which is the evidence of True Saving Faith.
---Mark_V. on 7/18/11

Belief does not save, but works save. A workless believer, like the barren figless tree, is condemned: for faith without works is 100% dead (ref: James 1:22-25 + 2:14-26). Consider, if you had no money and you needed it to buy some food and to survive, and you only believed that you have the money, still even with your belief you will not have the money and you would perish. But now moving rightly, if you act on the truth that you had no money, and you obey the commission to go work, then you will in truth receive that money that you need to buy the food to survive. And thereby from your works through obedience onto righteousness are you made justified, and not by belief only.
---Eloy on 7/18/11

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Acts 8:13"... Simon believed, and was baptized"
Mark 16:16 .."he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved," we would expect that Simon was saved. But it was revealed, his heart was "not right in the sight of God" (Acts 8:21), from this even though Simon believed and was baptized, he was not eternally secure upon believing.

In the Hebrew epistles, the kingdom message of "he that endureth unto the end shall be saved" doesn't change. Heb 3:6 "But Christ as a son over His own house, whose house are we, IF ..."

And Verse 14 "For we are made partakers of Christ, IF ...."
The Hebrew believers had conditional security.
The body of Christ has unconditional ES
---michael_e on 7/18/11

michael e,

one issue - Jesus never called those who believed in him children of the devil. It looks that way when reading straight through John 8 but...

v 2 Jesus was teaching in the temple and all the people came

v 3 Scribes and Pharisees came too

v 31 Jesus said to those who believed in Him...

v 33 "they" answered Him

v 44 you are of your father the devil

v 46 "But because I tell you the truth, you do not believe in Me"

verse 33 reads (in English) like he is still talking with those who believed in Him, but verse 46 makes it clear that the conversation had shifted to those who didn't
---James_L on 7/18/11


In spite of your false representation of JW's view regarding works and faith:

"We do not earn salvation by doing these things [works], for no human could ever do enough to merit such an astounding blessing. We are not worthy of this magnificent gift, though, if we fail to demonstrate our love and obedience by doing the things that the Bible says God and Christ want us to do. Without works to demonstrate our faith, our claim to follow Jesus would fall far short, for the Bible clearly states:

"Faith, if it does not have works, is dead in itself." James 2:17.
WT 96 2/1 pg. 8

Thank you for the opportunity to clarify this for you.
---scott on 7/18/11

Several reasons to be holy:

1) favor with God. the Law is about blessings and cursings for believers, not a road map to heaven.

2) to live longer - sin leads to death

3) to shine our lights before men so they may glorify God

4) to gain rewards and an inheritance - when the NT, rewards are generally called PROFIT. You put in something and get something back. Being saved from hell is never called profit, it is called a GIFT

5) to gain glory and honor as Christ did.

I never said you can do as you please and be ok. That is a misrepresentation. Is it "ok" to be chastised? To get sick, or die before your kids get grown? to be shamed at the Bema?
---James_L on 7/18/11

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"I desire to remind you, though you were once for all fully informed, that he who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe."
Jude 5

"He who endures to the end will be saved." Matt. 24:13

"As you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."
Phil. 2:12, RS (This was addressed to the saints, or holy ones, at Philippi).

"If we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment..."
Heb. 10:26, 27 (See also Hebrews 6:4-6)
---scott on 7/18/11

our Apostle teaches (Rom. 11:13) members of the body of Christ living in the dispensation of Grace are eternally secure in Him (Rom. 8:35-39, Phil. 1:6). How about Hebrew believers in the earthly program (Matt. 24:13)
A Hebrew believer who doesn't endure until the end of the Tribulation without the mark of the beast will not be saved. the same thought in John 8:30
It's a mistake to read our Lord's later revelation to Paul into His earthly ministry. In the next verse HE says something different:
John 8:31 ... IF... THEN ...

The conversation between our Lord and these believing Jews indicates they would not continue in His word, and He calls "those Jews which believed on Him" children of the devil (v. 44).
---michael_e on 7/18/11

would you kindly show anywhere in scripture that backsliders will go to hell? There aren't any, by the way.
---James_L on 7/17/11

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
---Trav on 7/18/11

"If you can do as you please and be ok then what is the point of being told to live Holy?"

The more holy you live, greater is the rewards that you will receive! (Your behavior as to do with rewards since salvation is a free gift not based on behavior).

"And if were all eternally secure did Judas make it in?"

Judas was a devil from the beginning and was so named by the Lord Jesus Christ when Christ chose him.
---mima on 7/18/11

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The Seg, I have a question and want to make sure I'm reading correctly. Are you saying what I believe you are saying concerning faith? You gave a passage in Rom. 12:3, and it sounded like you were suggesting that God gave every man a measure of faith, and that it includes unbelievers. Is that correct? I hope you are not. Because Paul was speaking to the Brethren" in (v.1) and in (v.3) he also mentions "through the grace given to me and everyone who is among you" means he was talking only about the brethren and not the whole world. Correct me if I'm wrong about your answer. Thank you brother, peace
---Mark_V. on 7/18/11

I agree with Seg. Look at John 3:16. He said, "Whosoever believes in Him...". He has made salvation available to everyone, but not everyone will choose it.

God so loved the ENTIRE world that He sacrificed His Son...not for just some people, but for all.

Once saved always saved is correct. We are sealed unto the day of redemption w/ the Holy Spirit. The only way a person can become "unsaved" is to deny Christ. God will not take back the Free Gift..if He did then it wasn't a gift in the 1st place.
---Rickey on 7/18/11


I'm sorry friend but I don't follow your logic?
---paul on 7/18/11

James L

This passage was written to backslidden Israel.

Joh 15:6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered, and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

If you can do as you please and be ok then what is the point of being told to live Holy?

And if were all eternally secure did Judas make it in?

---paul on 7/18/11

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Paul, you said,
"Christ has saved no one yet, those who endure shall be saved."
The Bible speaks of salvation in the past, present and future. In the present it says,
"For by Grace "you have been saved" through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast" Eph. 2:8
"Have been saved" is a done deal, it could not mean from the future calamity, for the passage say, "not of works, lest anyone should boast" why would anyone boast at the wrath of God? Believers go to the Judgment Seat of Christ, there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ. So this salvation is present.
---Mark_V. on 7/18/11

As you consider this question here is a couple of verses to keep in mind.
Matthew 10:28,29.

28-And I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29-My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

To those who believe they can take themselves out of the father's hands I would ask this question. Are you a man? Enough said.
---mima on 7/18/11

Because I said, If only people would stop listening to themselves.
And hear his voice Calling!
Therefore, I said there freewill?
No really, is that what you got?

Now lets look at verse 27 which I conveniently left out.
All things are delivered unto me of my Father.
Now Im pretty sure, he saying All things are mine.
But, for a good measure lets look at Mat_28:18!
All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth!
Yea, everything!

But, of faith!
A little jump we get to Rom_12:3 all, but specifically, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
As you said Joh_6:63!

I tell them the truth, Luk_17:6!
I tell you, Mat_14:16!
Now, look at Mat_11:25-26
---TheSeg on 7/18/11

Seg, when you use Scripture, you had better read the whole context of it before you quote and sound like a fool. Matthew 11:28-30 must be read in context with verse 27, which you conveniently left out. Here's what Christ declared in verse,

27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father, neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Therefore, only those whom the Father gave to the Son will go to Him and no one else, hence verses 28-30. Does this sound like "freewill" to you? It sure doesn't to me. Your "freewill" imagination does not hold water as far as what you are trying to declare.
---christan on 7/18/11

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Seg, "If only people would stop listening to themselves. And hear his voice Calling!"

How does a man who's declared by God to be "dead in sin and trespasses" hear God's calling? Jesus declared "It is the Spirit that quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." Do tell...

O ya, I forgot, by your own "freewill" you can make yourself a Spirit and hear God's voice. Scripture contradicts you sick doctrine. And like you said yourself, "If only people would stop listening to themselves."
---christan on 7/18/11

Michael E

As he said this will go nowhere but I will play along for a minute.
Christ has saved no one yet, those who endure shall be saved.

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending!
What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia

The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Paul, I know you see these words.
Still Im glad you know these words will go nowhere!

But, as you said, you probably wont see them without revelation
---TheSeg on 7/18/11

David--Does a wise parent disown his disodedient child?
---Donna66 on 7/17/11

Hi again Donna, and Always a pleasure.

The "Not by works" teaching, teaches that one does not have to Walk in the ways of the Lord in order to be saved.
Can you show me an example of anyone who didn't walk in the ways of the Lord and found Grace in the eyes of God, that same Grace that saves us?
If not, what does that tell you?
What happened throughout the Old Testament to those who lived in disobedience?
Didn't God kill them?
Weren't Many of those he killed, Gods children?
Has God changed?
---David on 7/18/11

Christan, Wow!
If only people would stop listening to themselves.
And hear his voice Calling!
Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me, for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Luk_9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

Does it seem to you, instead of picking it up?
They add more and more weight to it.
Where even we cant pick it up?
---TheSeg on 7/17/11

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If you're a Jehovah Witness you can only be saved if you 'come to Jehovah's organisation for salvation' (WT, 11/15/81, p. 21).

You also have to work for your salvation e.g. 'To get one's name written in that Book of Life will depend upon one's works.' (WT, 4/1/47, p. 204)

Thus salvation for JWs depends on a human organisation and trying to win God's love.

Contrast their non-Christian soteriology with the real deal: 'But to him who doesn't work but BELIEVES on him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness.' (Romans 4:5)
---Marc on 7/17/11

would you kindly show anywhere in scripture that backsliders will go to hell? There aren't any, by the way.

Everyone is seeking teir security by looking to a particular point in time.

Some are looking to the day they "decided" to get saved

Some are looking to the day they can say they endured to the end

Believers are looking to the day that Jesus was stretched out on a wooden beam and lifted up to draw all men to Himself
---James_L on 7/17/11

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 39 This is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which He hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 10:3 He calleth His own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
---christan on 7/17/11

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
---christan on 7/17/11

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Michael E

As I said this will go no where but I will play along for a minute.

Christ has saved no one yet, those who endure shall be saved.

If you know anything of a signeted seal, which was the time specific analogy drawn by being sealed, it could be made void and invalid by being broken by anyone but the reader of the decree.

The Bible declares no man will be justified by the law but by Christs work of grace, so if your fallen from grace and cant be justified then Paul did warn of backsliding.
Ga 5:4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law, you have fallen from grace.
There are countless scriptures, you probably wont see them without revelation

God Bless, Paul
---paul on 7/17/11

we are secure, but we must also "MAKE" our calling and election sure. We are to honor God with our lives and our works, we could never produce good enough works to merit our salvation.
---Allen on 7/17/11


What is the consequence if we do not do this, are we punished with Heaven?

And which is it, we are secure or we must make ourselves secure?

---paul on 7/17/11

No, in no ways. For God, the Holy Scripture, and life, all prove that there are indeed backsliders, backsliders whom choose to leave their first love and go back down into condemnation: "Therefore the just by faith will live, and if draws back, the life of me has no pleasure. But we are not of them who draw back to perdition, but of them that believing to the saving of life." Hb.10:38,39.
---Eloy on 7/17/11

In the whole scope of Christian teaching, you have to consider line upon line preceipt upon preceipt as Isaiah puts it. Salvation is a work of God totally and completely Jonah 2:9 we are chosen before the foundation of the world, if God knew we were to be lost why would he save us in the first place? Salvation is being "born again" it is a work of God that brings about a "new birth" a spiritual change in us that can never be undone if God truly does it. We are "sealed by the Holy Ghost until the day of redemption Eph 4:30 we are secure, but we must also "MAKE" our calling and election sure..We are to honor God with our lives and our works, we could never produce good enough works to merit our salvation.
---Allen on 7/17/11

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//Non Eternal Securest NES True but you can separate yourself from God//
When God saves you, you can't unsave yourself.
When God seals you, you can't unsave yourself.
//NES Not so for a person can backslide//
Nothing about backsliding in Paul's writings to the body of Christ.
// ES Well if that's the case then the person was never truly saved to start with//
could very well be true.
1Cor 15:1-4 very plain.
---michael_e on 7/17/11

'But he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved.'

Matthew 24:13.
---David8318 on 7/17/11

Allow me to play this over talked topic out.

Eternal Securest ES
Nor height nor depth can separate you from the love of God

Non Eternal Securest NES
True but you can separate yourself from God

Well if that's the case then the person was never truly saved to start with

Not so for a person can backslide

>< to infinity
No disrespect intended but this will go no where with no hearts changed, believe as you will and let God sort it out.
---paul on 7/17/11

kathr4453, Im not trying to give you an argument.
Are you saying there is no justification for abortion or murder?
Just in case, in your answer consider Christ!

Joh_7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
Joh_8:26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true, and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.

I know when I look round myself and consider the things that surrounded me.
(I own!) What are the consequences of these things?

If I have offended you or anyone, I am sorry, thats not my intent!
Just saying, my hand might be on that, which I know not!
God bless you
---TheSeg on 7/17/11

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David--Does a wise parent disown his disodedient child?
Banish him from the family? Love him only when he obeys?
Or does he punish that disobedient child and then provide a hug when he repents.
---Donna66 on 7/17/11

I know no one here believes abortion or murder is OK. When we are born again, we are Born from Above, that is begotten sons through Jesus Christ.

We've been given LIFE, new LIFE in Christ.

Fo you to lose that life IN CHRIST God would have to abort you.

So unless you believe abortion is OK, you fail to see that is murder. Is God a murderer? NO!

---kathr4453 on 7/17/11

Paul, teaching ES, says we are "sealed unto the day of redemption" (Eph. 4:30), "the redemption of our body" (Rom. 8:23). There won't be any fumbles when the body of Christ is called out.

God,s honor is at stake in the security of our seal. 2Cor.1:20 says "all the promises of God in Him are yea, and in Him Amen, unto the glory of God by us."

If sealed believers were lost, God would get no glory "by us." the loss of one Spirit-sealed saint would question His integrity, the soundness of the believer's seal depends on the promise of God. We know this, because Paul doesn't mention the Spirit's seal only to spiritual Ephesians, but includes carnal Corinthians when speaking of this blessing.
---michael_e on 7/17/11

This teaching is taught along with the "Not by works" teaching.
That teaching that says obedience to God is not a requirement of those who shall be given the gift of Salvation.
Apply this same teaching to raising a child.

Which parent is wise?
The one who gives a gift to their children because they are obedient,
Or the one who gives a gift to their children, hoping that giving them the gift will make them obedient?

In which manner would God, who is wise, raise his children?
If it sounds like foolishness to you, it came from man, not from God.
---David on 7/17/11

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Hebrews 6:19
Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil,

Hebrews 9 will explain.

Hebrews 10:10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Hebrews 10:20
By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh,
---kathr4453 on 7/17/11

It is the Lord who saves, and He would ask the doubter this question "Is My hand shortened at all that it cannot redeem? Or have I no power to deliver?" He would then answer it with this, "the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save, neither His ear heavy, that it cannot hear." Therefore, "come, let us sing [praises] unto the LORD: let us make a joyful noise to the 'rock' of our salvation."Isa 50:2>Isa 59:1>Psa 95:1. 'The Lord Jesus Christ'. Yes, The LORD saves through His Anointed One and His anointing, and His children are sealed with "the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts." 2Cr 1:22
---joseph on 7/17/11

van on 7/16/11
check the apostle paul's writings, for scriptures.
---michael_e on 7/17/11

I can't quote scriptures but i do believe that if a human really sincere gives their soul to God base off the free gift of salvation through Christ then they're save for ever because we are baptize and seal by the Holy Ghost until the day of redemption.If one believes they can loose their salvation then what are you depending on to keep it!! No one can save or keep their salvation.If you believe you can then you're never save the first place.
---van on 7/16/11

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Salvation is a gift from God. "It is by grace that you are saved through Faith". It is hard to imagine our Father and Lord Jesus taking a gift away. However, Bible says to "work out your salvation with fear and trembling" and we do know that there is one sin which is not forgiven by God, blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. I do not know the answer to this question but taking all of this into consideration, I would warn brothers and sisters to take the grace and severity of God seriously.
---jody on 7/16/11

\\Our security should be in Christ Jesus, who is eternal.
However, too many people look for their security in their own act of faith.
That's the result of thinking you can get saved by saying the unbiblical "sinner's prayer".\\
---Cluny on 7/16/11

If I were to make those statements, I would not change one word. Everyone should read that and take it to heart.

faith in faith is worth nothing
faith in prayer is worth nothing
Faith in Christ is worth everything
---James_L on 7/16/11

Everyone on this earth is a sinner, for it is written Rom_3:10.
So you know no one is guiltless or better then anyone else.
Rom_12:3! But do they? They start thinking and building their houses!
And all they have is a measure of faith! Gen_11:6
These are your hypocrites in Mat_23! Mat_15:9, Mar_7:7!
I say this because of the things you will hear!
Like you must stop sinning, Act_15:24!
Its the sins against Gods spirit.

But first, look for an understanding of the knowledge of God.
Read all of Ephesians! Eph_4:13,30,32

Whats God saying?
Mar_10:9, Act_10:15!
Now, do we believe it?

So, to some he said Joh_5:38-39
Dont turn to him for life Joh_5:40-41
If you do, Joh_5:42

Yes, I do!
---TheSeg on 7/16/11

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