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What Is Eternal Security

Does Eternal Security have the same meaning and cover the same thing that Once Saved Always Saved does, is it the same as Eternal Life and how does one secure Eternal Life?

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 ---Darlene_1 on 7/19/11
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MarkV, The Word was with God and WAS God and was in the Beginning.

You believe God in eternity past had a Son, who's mother was the Holy Spirit which is RCC. God's Begotten Son had an earthly mother,MARY. So who was God's eternal son before begoming His Begotten Son? And you place the DEITY of the WORD in a subbordinate position from the beginning.

He LEFT Glory and humbled Himself when He took on flesh, at that time ONLY was in submission to the Father.

Find a scripture stating God's ETERNAL Son was made flesh becoming His Only begotten Son. You can't.

John says In the Beginning GOD created the Heavens and Earth, of which we know the world was framed by the WORD OF GOD, who is God, and was from the beginning.
---kathr4453 on 7/29/11


Kathr, before you get into more trouble because you are angry, I want to make a truce with you. Leave my name out of your answers to others. Answer as you please. I will only answer to the doctrine brought forward and not speak directly to you. I have tried this before but you keep mentioning not only my name to others but even my family has been included. I will forgive everything you have said and move forward. Are you willing? yes or no?
---Mark_V. on 7/29/11


Someone is always trying to feed flies so they can throw them in the ointment...
"So If I accept christ, then become a buddist I will still be saved?"
francis
Maybe you need to realize that if you accept Christ you will not become a Buddhist. Sweet water and bitter do not come from the same fountain!
---Elder on 7/29/11


Thank you Elder! Leej, maybe hearing it from a MAN will get through!
---kathr4453 on 7/29/11


So MarkV, you believe Pharoah saw the Spirit of the Life of Christ who set him free from the Law of Sin and death in Joseph? Really? So Joseph back then before CHRIST came was Cricified with Christ and raised a New Creature? And this is what Pharoah saw? WOW! Can you PROVE that?
---kathr4453 on 7/29/11


Gnosticism (Concise Bible Dictionary) An early system of philosophy professedly Christian. One of their theories was that the Lord was Aeon and not really a man. Apparently to refute this the apostle insists on Christ having come in flesh. #1Jo 4:2,3 2Jo 7. The same may be alluded to in #Col 2:9 "in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily," in opposition to their mysticism.

It is easy to see that Kathr is very mislead in her crusade against Calvinism and their belief in Scripture.
---leej on 7/29/11




Jesus promises eternal life to the faithful and righteous. But the "once saved always saved" is a false doctrine created mainly to ensnare new converts into unrepentance and fruitlessness onto damnation. To secure eternal life, you must become a saved and born-again Christian, that it, you surrender up your life to Jesus in confessing your sin and separated life from him, and ask him for forgiveness and for his new born-again life from him. You can visit my websites for details at,
http colon forward-slash forward-slash eloy1 dot yolasite dot com
http colon forward-slash forward-slash eloy1 dot weebly dot com/
---Eloy on 7/29/11


Kathr, you speak lies about Calvinism all the time, because Calvinism proofs you wrong, and you don't like that, because you do not understand what you are talking about. You don't know who the "Truth" is. And let me remind you Jesus Christ is the Truth, and I say this since you do not believe in the eternal Son of God, for by your latest testimony you do not believe He is eternal, for you said He became His Son when He was born. You might as well join the Unitarians, or a Jehovah Witnesses, but please don't stop at my house. You were not right on the Holy Spirit indwelling Old Testament saints, so I sure don't expect you to know who Jesus Christ is. You missed out on both.
---Mark_V. on 7/29/11


// let me ask you this, looking at the parable of the 4 soils, Were they all saved?

No, as the Word did not take real growth in those who simply assented mentally to the gospel message, it is those whose heart was changed that bore fruit unto eternal life.

In other words, Kathr, simply saying you believe with you mind but not your heart will simply get you nothing except a religious philosophy.

Poor souls they think they can save themselves by their good works and right beliefs.
---leej on 7/29/11

And then you say this?????

LeeJ, you must have gone off your meds! Or you just spend time here double-talking!
---kathr4453 on 7/29/11


Leej, I always knew Calvinists and GNOSTICS were one in the same!
---kathr4453 on 7/29/11


Gnosticism:
a pre-Christian and early Christian religious movement teaching that salvation comes by learning esoteric spiritual truths that free humanity from the material world, believed in this movement to be evil.
Buddhism:
a world religion or philosophy based on the teaching of the Buddha and holding that a state of enlightenment can be attained by suppressing worldly desires.

Christianity: Do we suppress worldly desires? Or are we Crucified with Christ, crucified to this world? Those who are Christs have crucified the Flesh, not sitting in some esoteric trance being deluded through philosophy and vain deceit they have escaped the world through the power of positive thinking.
---kathr4453 on 7/29/11




Kathr - Guess what? Those terrible Calvinists believe what the Bible states about eternal life for the believer.

2Co 1:22 and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

Eph 1:13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed (past tnese) with the promised Holy Spirit,

Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed (past tense) for the day of redemption.

But perhaps we can excuse your ignorance of God's word as it takes time to grow as a Christian.
---leej on 7/29/11


Buddhism: a world religion or philosophy based on the teaching of the Buddha and holding that a state of enlightenment can be attained by suppressing worldly desires.(dictionary)

Buddhism as a philosophy has much in common with Christianity as both believe in spiritual enlightenment, and in suppressing worldly desires.

Howbeit, many that claim the name of Christ are really more into religious philosophy than they are into Christ. Col. 2:8
---leej on 7/29/11


Someone is always trying to feed flies so they can throw them in the ointment...
"So If I accept christ, then become a buddist I will still be saved?"
francis
Maybe you need to realize that if you accept Christ you will not become a Buddhist. Sweet water and bitter do not come from the same fountain!
---Elder on 7/29/11


Kathr, Pharaoh could recognize the indwelling of the Spirit in Joseph better then you in (Genesis 41:38). How about the Spirit clearly was in Joshua and this is the reason for God's choosing Him (Numbers 27:18). The Spirit was said to be in Daniel (Dan. 4:8: 5:11-14: 6:3). The preposition "in" in all these verses is "beth" in Heb.
The Holy Spirit was also upon many. The Holy Spirit is said to have filled some. This is recorded Bezalel in relations to his leadership of the crafsmen working on the tabernacle (Ex. 31:3: 35:31). So again your argument is wrong when you said no one.
---Mark_V. on 7/29/11


kathr4453 - there is always that problem that those in Christ must belong to the right denomination in order to be saved or possess all the right theological views.

If you can be an SDA or belong to the church you belong to, then clearly one can be a Buddhist and also a born again Christian at the same time - right?

Clearly, if you are born of God's Spirit, you will have conflicts with wrong beliefs.

And that is probably why you have some many problems!
---leej on 7/29/11


//So If I accept christ, then become a buddist I will still be saved?
---francis on 7/28/11
If the Holy Spirit has come to indwell you at your spritual birth, yes, you may become a buddhist and still be saved. -------leej on 7/28/11


ala, this was on the "Can one lose their Salvation" THREAD.

Where did Paul ever teach such things?

You know, it use to be said, Crime Doesn't Pay. BUT that was before the 21st Century. Seems to be applying to those tearing down Gods word too today. ONLY in the 21st Centuury would some claiming to be God's ELECT make such a false statement, and keep a streight face, where even JamesL is buying into it.
---kathr4453 on 7/29/11


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//Leej, just told Leslie that someone can accept Christ and become a Buddhist too.//

Wow!

kathr, for future reference, can you point out where?
---aka on 7/28/11


MarkV, I will only say this ONCE. You made that statement to me to try and discredit me, because I said no one in the OT was Born Again. Only Kings, Prophest and Priests had the Holy Spirit UPON THEM, not IN THEM uniting them with Jesus death and resurrection resulting in being Born Again. Your understanding of Born Again ann mine are not the same. The WORD became Flesh, just as scripture teaches. The WORD WAS and IS God, not an eternal son who became a begotten Son.
I know you don't get it, nor do any of you calvinists. Leej, just told Leslie that someone can accept Christ and become a Buddhist too. I guess as long as your names were picked out of a hat, it doesn't matter what you believe, or so you think.
---kathr4453 on 7/28/11


Kathr 3: If you were working for the purpose of God you would not argue. By trying to discredit me, you intentionally discredit the Word of God that I present. Your purpose is to find fault in every answer I give. But since I told you that the Son of God was eternal, you have kept this up. I told you He did not become the Son but that He has always been the Son. But you argued at the expense of Christ. You might as well be a Unitarian or a J. Witness, for they also try to discredit the deity of Christ. You are not stupid, or mental, or retarded, you are just not willing to believe because your intentions are not godly. The Father has to reveal it to you, so again your free-will is false.
---Mark_V. on 7/28/11


Kathr, I explained to you the Spirit was in some Old T. saints and gave you their names, and that the ministry of the Spirit works different after Pentacost then in the Old T. "The indwelling brings the presence of God spiritually into the life of the believer" Why? because the believer with all others are spiritually baptized into His body and the reason He says, I in you and you in me. Jesus is not inside of you literally. Spiritually, His spirit is, for He has a flesh.
Yet God literally is Omnipresent, there is no place where God is not. Yet, as Spirit God does not occupy any place, in the sense that physical objects occupy space. God's presence is in all places. There is no place to hide from God.
---Mark_V. on 7/28/11


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Kathr 2, Omnipresence relates not only to the places where God is, but also to how much of Him is in any given place. There is no place where a person can hide from God.
When God said, "And the two shall become one" Literally God did not mean that suddenly the two become one person. But spiritually they would. "Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For the two shall become one" but he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him" This is a spiritual experience not a physical one. You need to separate the physical with the spiritual. When we sin in the physical, we effect the spiritual. Our bodies were bought by Christ, 1 Cor. 6:11-20.
---Mark_V. on 7/28/11


Mark,

If you cannot doubt or choose to believe, there is no such thing as faith to a believer, "faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen", we are chosen to receive not believe.

keeping our eyes fixed on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of our faith. For the joy set out for him he endured the cross, disregarding its shame...>Hebrews 12:2
This, according to what the author is saying, is as Thayer says concerning finisher, "one who has in his own person raised faith to its perfection and so set before us the highest example of faith". Jesus is our example of ultimate trust in Gods promises, greater than those of chapter 11, his was perfect.
---willa5568 on 7/28/11


Darline, I was not suggesting you thought it was a fuss. What I meant that so many others make it such a fuss. No, you asked the right question. What the fuss is about I just don't see how it can be hard for genuine Christians to understand. I know the Spirit reveals things to us differently, but this part Christians should make sure of. If they are geniune believers, they already have a place with the Lord for all eternity. That is what faith is all about. No faith says, maybe if I don't do that, or forget to do that, or maybe said the wrong thing, I might lose my chance. What good is faith if we doubt? Peace I leave you.
---Mark_V. on 7/27/11


Kathr 2: what you have done is localized the Holy Spirit to one place, in the heart of believers, but the Holy Spirit is God and He is everywhere at all times, He is Omnipresent. He cannot be localized. But under the New ministry the Holy Spirit, He is said to be in the believer empowering them to do their ministry for the Lord.He is not really inside since He is Spirit. Jesus Christ is also said to be in the believer,but He is in a relationship,for He is at the right hand of the Father. -Mark_V. on 6/1/11


Be careful who you call a liar. Here is your statement AGAIN in black and white.

Anyone reading this, as many will in years to come will only shake their head in disbelief you stated this.
---kathr4453 on 7/27/11


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Mark V sorry I didn't mean to make it seem like a "fuss" over the things I ask. What I was seeking was to learn others opinions about those things since I had seen them used in many different definitions for the same words. Many times those definitions are based on denominational beliefs. Thanks to all. I really already knew their meaning and how they appilied to us as Christians. God Bless
---Darlene_1 on 7/27/11


Mark,

where exactly does scripture say holy spirit is omniscient? Please show me specifically in scripture texts using the holy spirit. And the spirit of Christ is not his spirit but is the mind of Christ.

Romans 8:11-Moreover if the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead lives in you, the one who raised Christ from the dead will also make your mortal bodies alive through his Spirit who lives in you

8:17-... if indeed we suffer with him so we may also be glorified with him.(the mind of Christ)Philippians 2:5-12
---willa5568 on 7/27/11


Kathr, again you speak falsehood. For someone who claims to be saved you do a lot of that. You said I said,

" markv says Christ really isn't in you and the Holy Spirit really isn't in you where as Rhonda doesn't even believe in the Holy Spirit at all."

I never said such a thing. I said that the Spirit of God is omniscient. And that the Spirit of Christ is in every believer. That He was in some in the Old Testament guiding them with power, but after He had risen, the comforter, under His ministry would indwell believers permanently. Something the Spirit did not do in the Old T. It was going to be a special manifestion of the Spirit, for they had been given the Spirit already.
You sure lie a lot.
---Mark_V. on 7/27/11


agreed ... good discussion...

many believe Elijah and Enoch are the two witnesses... ---kathr4453 on 7/26/11

there is more scripture that proves they are dead---willa5568 on 7/26/11

jesus does not ask for proof. he asks for witness. Jesus did not come to replace the Law but fulfill it. everything in the NT has witness with everything from the OT. Considering all of scripture, i side with kathr. But, as she said, I can't disprove that anymore than I can prove it. and neither can you prove your brand of logic..
---aka on 7/26/11


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I believe you're correct MarkV. But I'm also aware of the fact that not many would see it that same way. Eternal security escapes most people because they refused to accept the very words of God. "No man can snatch and one of my hands" yes but I myself can turn away they say, totally forgetting the fact that they too are just men!
---mima on 7/26/11


Darline, as to your question, I really don't know what all the fuss is about. If a person has committed his life to Christ with a contrite heart, it is because he has been given saving faith by God. When God gives that saving faith, it does not fade away. He is the Author and finisher of our faith. Which also guarantees our salvation. We (believers) are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. The just live by faith. We are not perfect yet, but will be one day according to God. We know that by faith. Christ sustain's us guiltless unto the Day of the Lord.
---Mark_V. on 7/26/11


-kathr4453,

I agree, there are many and probably most who believe these two will be the witness'. Is it possible, as I see it no. But I will not insist it to be. Concerning Enoch. He had Methuselah when he was 65 and Methuselah lived 969 yrs so he could have been alive at the time Noah was born if God did not take him.

aka,

I believe, though I may be wrong, there is more scripture that proves they are dead. It really doesn't matter but it is a good discussion.
---willa5568 on 7/26/11


Willa, correct, it is apointed for man to die ONCE and then the judgement. And because of that fact, many believe Elijah and Enoch are the two witnesses. I can't disprove that anymore than I can prove it. It's one of those things that could be possible and still be within scripture. They are the only two who have yet to die, and according to scripture need to. That too is why many believe Moses cannot be on of the two.

Enoch was long long before the flood.

By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death,and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Not being found means there wwas no body buried. We'll just have to wait and see.
---kathr4453 on 7/26/11


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Can you prove they are? As Paul said concerning these two, if Christ was not raised we are still in our trespasses and sins. Certainly you don't believe these men had no sin.Willa//

Willa, I understand what you are saying here. You are saying if I am correct, no one could come into the presence of God before Jesus died and rose again. Not even OT Saints who died. They went to Abraham's Bosom, and then to heaven after Jesus rose.

It's a respectable argument I don't have the answer for. UNLESS the THIRD Heaven, where Paul said he was, or where John in Revelation went?? is a place an alive person still in their earthly sinful bodies can go, and actually did go, and return.

Still a possibility.
---kathr4453 on 7/26/11


2Ki 2:11 And as they still went on and talked, behold, chariots of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

i hope there is still not 100% agreement. non-traditional biblical doctrine can be just as damaging.
---aka on 7/24/11

I'm panning here AKA but, maybe the answer is in the fire? Seems GOD's fire purify's or consume's.

Psalm 104:4
Who maketh his angels spirits, his ministers a flaming fire:
Matthew 3:11
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
---Trav on 7/26/11


Show scripture that says he didn't. ---willa5568 on 7/25/11

show scripture that says he did...Elijah specifically.

you want to force human logic onto God's Word.
---aka on 7/26/11


-kathr4453

Can you prove they are? As Paul said concerning these two, if Christ was not raised we are still in our trespasses and sins. Certainly you don't believe these men had no sin. Translated only means to move, it does not say where nor does it say he did not die. Some suggest him not seeing death could be him not experiencing the judgement of the flood. If what you say is true then descendants of Adam of the dust, are now in heaven, which is not possible or Christs death had no effect for them. It seems much more logical that they died considering in Adam ALL die.

Either way there is no rock solid proof.
---willa5568 on 7/25/11


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Hebrews 11:5
By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death, and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.


Willa, it says here Enoch was translated AKA Raptured, and did not see death.

Also note Enoch pleased God, and says nothing about keeping all the commandments that pleased God.

And we too know God can translate people out of this earth, as He already proved He can..

Enoch represents the rapture of the Church, Noah represents those saved through the great tribulation. You see what comes first?
---kathr4453 on 7/25/11


I believe they are, since they are the only 2 men that were translated and did not see death.
---CraigA on 7/25/11


are Enoch and Elijah in the presence of God? Can flesh enter heaven? Does it not say that in Adam ALL die? Does it say they did not die?Willa//

Willa, many believe that Enoch and Elijah will be teh two witnesses during teh great Tribulation. Many believed John the Baptist wa actually Elijah, although he wasn't.

Can you prove through scripture they are not the two witnesses?
---kathr4453 on 7/25/11


aka,

are Enoch and Elijah in the presence of God? Can flesh enter heaven? Does it not say that in Adam ALL die? Does it say they did not die?

It says Enoch was no more because God took him. Why did he take him and where did he take him? show me scripture that agree's with your believe.

Elijah was taken up to "heaven". That is erroneous since he was taken up in a whirlwind into the HEAVENS(ie the sky). Where does it say he did not die? Show scripture that says he didn't.
---willa5568 on 7/25/11


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Rhonda, doesn't scripture also say, the dead in Christ will rise first, and those who remain will meet Him in the air. Even those who are alive when The Lord Comes for His Church will be transformed and translated out will be given Glorified bodies. How this will happen, I cannot even begin to say. I just believe what scripture teaches.

But those alive on earth after the rapture who make it through the great tribulation at Christ's second coming (not the Rapture) will still be in their flesh form, and they..those who endure to the end,the end of the Great Tribulation who have not received the mark of the beast will be the ones who will live in the flesh for 1000 years when Jesus comes to earth in all His Glory. Zechariah 12-14.
---kathr4453 on 7/25/11


JamesL, I know WCF is really messed up. AND if one only believes their etrnal security comes by having their name picked out of a hat, well GOOD LUCK! How can THEY PROVE their name was picked? The only foundation they have is choosing scripture that was spoken to Israel ALONE, and mis-applying it to themselves. God chose Jacob/Israel for SERVICE, yet we know the majority of Israel rejected Jesus Christ, and from that, salvation came to the Gentiles.

They have no understanding that it was to ABRAHAM the promise was made that all families of the earth would be blessed. Galatians doesn't even mention Jacob, or even suggest election as calvinists portray, but Faith in Jesus Christ...Galatians 2:20-21 to be Crucified with Christ.
---kathr4453 on 7/25/11


MY confession of faith is this:
I am Crucified with Christ, it is not longer I but Christ who lives in me, and the life that I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Only begotten Son who loved me and gave Himself for me.

THIS alone is the evidence one is saved and secure IN CHRIST.

Calvinists or that is markv says Christ really isn't in you and the Holy Spirit really isn't in you where as Rhonda doesn't even believe in the Holy Spirit at all.

The WORKS are the Works of CHRIST IN YOU, and the working out of the CROSS in your life. No such work takes place without our identification with Him in death and resurrection life. Hebrews 13:20-21 with Romans 8:11-17
---kathr4453 on 7/25/11


//Rhonda,...But as I know in my life and possibly you in yours, traditional biblical doctrine can be damaging to learning the bible.// --willa

//and everyone that has ever lived DIED// --rhonda

2Ki 2:11 And as they still went on and talked, behold, chariots of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

i hope there is still not 100% agreement. non-traditional biblical doctrine can be just as damaging.
---aka on 7/24/11


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It is written in the prophets, And they will all be taught by God. Everyone who hears and learns from the Father comes to me-John 6:45

But Abraham said, They have Moses and the Prophets, let them hear them-Luke 16:29

We have found him of whom Moses in the Law and also the prophets wrote, Jesus of Nazareth-John 1:45

Joseph of Arimathea, a respected member of the Council, who was also himself looking for the kingdom of God-Mark 15:43

You shall seek me, and find me, when you shall search for me with all your heart-Jeremiah 29:13

There is a great deal of scripture that disagree with predestination as Calvin taught. Predestination is very different in the Hebrews understanding



---willa5568 on 7/24/11


where does it say he had eternal life in FLESH - it doesn't Rhonda///

Rhonda, our flesh does not and never will have eternal life
****

I never said flesh had eternal life

my guess is you are suggesting you are a spiritual being?

yikes if that is the case than there would be nothing else I could possibly discuss with you seeing that is antichrist to Holy Scripture

the reality is YOU and every human being on earth will DIE ..and everyone that has ever lived DIED

flesh and blood DO NOT INHERIT the Kingdom of God so I must conclude from your statement you believe you are not flesh and blood??
---Rhonda on 7/24/11


Rhonda,

I agree 100% with you. But as I know in my life and possibly you in yours, traditional biblical doctrine can be damaging to learning the bible(not is as some may take this)
*****

Amen!!

or as I learned to read with an open mind ...and that I can attest to takes practice patience prayer and the hunger for Truth ...prove all things
---Rhonda on 7/24/11


Please don't call that a lie too! If you do, it only shows you've never been born again.
*****

curious ...where does it IMPLY one is "born again" in the flesh?

seeing Christ HIMSELF stated that flesh and blood DO NOT INHERIT the Kingdom of God

1Corin 15 teaches a resurrection of ALL (meaning all at the same time at Christs COMING) ...resurrected to (BORN TO) immortality aka SPIRIT

so you are implying you are a spirit being in the flesh?

real FAITH is to believe YET not SEE ...understanding begotten is an EVENT that has not happened - YET will happen at Christs return
---Rhonda on 7/24/11


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Darlene, never ask Eternal Security to people who believe in "freewill". More importantly, "is it taught in the Scripture"? Read the following and you decide for yourself,

"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." John 6:37, "And I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." John 10:28,29

Eternal life is a promise from God. Does God breaks His promise? According to Christ who taught the above Scripture, the answer is clearly "NO".
---christan on 7/24/11


Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
-Remember, this is after His resurrection.
-Reconcile with...
1Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
-Does this not merely say that one can't inherit the kingdom of God simply by living?-notice blood instead of bone...
-2 or 3 witnesses?
Job 19:26 And [though] after my skin [worms] destroy this [body], yet in my flesh shall I see God:
Eze 37
---micha9344 on 7/24/11


Kathr,

I agree it sounds like Arminian works. If you read the Westminster Confession, you will see it there.

The only difference is that Calvinists, at the end of your life, will say that God has kept you, and your works have proven your faith to be genuine.

Arminians, on the other hand, will say that your works have kept you.

Either way, faith without works makes you hellbound, so faith is not enough according to both.

WCF also says that the only assurance one can have is by looking at their works.

And OSAS is a designation used primarily by those who follow the WCF.

The Free Grace doctrine acknowledges that one is 'Eternally Secure', and may never exibit any "evidence" at all.
---James_L on 7/24/11


where does it say he had eternal life in FLESH - it doesn't Rhonda///

Rhonda, our flesh does not and never will have eternal life. Our flesh has been crucified with Christ. WE died with Christ. Our history in Adam 1 ended the moment we received Jesus Christ. That's our identification with Him in death. We are now a NEW CREATURE IN CHRIST who is our life, waiting for our Glorified bodies. We don't know what that will be but we do know we will be like Him.

Those now He has Justified He has also Glorified. That is a promise.

When Christ returns to earth to reign and rule, HIS BODY, the Church, will reign and rule with Him. I don't have to wait until then to KNOW I have eternal security. I have eternal security NOW.
---kathr4453 on 7/24/11


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OSAS looks to the day they die, when they can look back and see evidence that they obeyed God, and believe their faith was validated. If you remain faithful, you will be found to have genuine faith according to OSAS. JamesL//

Sounds more like Arminian(sp)WORKS to me. Being neither Calvin or Arminian, I don't agree with this definition of OSAS in anyway shape or form, yet I do believe once you are saved, you're forever secure in that salvation. We have been sanctified once for all through the Body of Christ.

I won't have to look back to SEE if my faith was really genuine. I have a personall relationship with God through Christ RIGHT NOW! If my faith weren't genuine, I wouldn't KNOW God or Christ or even KNOW my sin is forgiven!
---kathr4453 on 7/24/11


Phil 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ, which is far better:
****

where does it say he had eternal life in FLESH - it doesn't

Holy Scripture has many dozens of verses describing FUTURE EVENTS: inheritance, hope, promise

Apostles understood as Abraham Job King David etc tresurrection would occur at Christs COMING Mark 13:26 John 5:25 ...dead SHALL hear...

Christ is NOT ruling earth today HE qualified to rule earth and replace the god of this world 2Corin4:4 at his RETURN

Do you actually believe Christ is ruling earth today from Jerusalem ...The Prince of Peace is ruling now?

belief you will not die your view contradicts Holy Scripture Phil 2:12
---Rhonda on 7/24/11


//any one of us may fall away at some later time. Therefore, none of us could be certain that we have this 'genuine' faith that perseveres to the end. One must look to the end of his life for assurance because any time before the end is presumptuous.// ---James_L on 7/23/11

agreed...reference parable of sower and the seed and jesus' rejection of those who do many miraculous things in His name.

Our spiritual deliverance is contingent on His recognition of our belief in Him, we are encouraged to believe until the end. not all those that believe when they hear, believe in the end or believe in what they heard in the first place.

concern yourself with today. tomorrow is in the Lord's Hands.
---aka on 7/24/11


1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God, that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith.
-Know? Persuaded? Victory?
-Presumptuous?
---micha9344 on 7/24/11


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For those who do not believe in eternal security here is something I recently have discovered.
Romans 1:8 says,"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus",--------- and the following words, "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" were added on by someone else after the original was written.
---mima on 7/24/11


Question, is there something such as Perseverance of the Saints? In answering this question one should consider Romans 10:28-29 which says,
"28-And I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."

"29-My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."
---mima on 7/24/11


Donna66,
Your welcome. For further clarification, OSAS is used by those who follow Calvins TULIP. The 'P' stands for Perseverance of the Saints, which says if one is born again, he will inevitably live a life of obedience to God.

It teaches that there is a 'spurious' faith wherewith a man may believe he is saved, but never exibits any fruit.

One with spurious faith may fall away, and prove that he was never saved to begin with.

Since none of us knows the future, any one of us may fall away at some later time. Therefore, none of us could be certain that we have this 'genuine' faith that perseveres to the end. One must look to the end of his life for assurance because any time before the end is presumptuous.
---James_L on 7/23/11


...Apostles never believed they had eternal life during their physical lives and KNEW it would happen on the LAST DAY Titus 1:2, 3:7, John 6:54, 1Corin 15 Rhonda///

Not true..

Phil 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ, which is far better:

And not only that but the man next to Jesus on the Cross, Jesus said "TODAY you will be WITH ME in Paradise".

When Jesus rose from the dead, He lead captivity captive and all OT Saints in Abraham's bosom, and Now all NT Saints...those saved are in heaven Right now with Christ waiting for their New Bodies. Those who are alive when He comes, their bodies will be instantly CHANGED into Glorified bodies fashioned like His.
---kathr4453 on 7/24/11


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1 Corinthians 15:55-57
55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.

57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Rhonda it appears you don't understand what Paul is saying here. You see Rhonda, I'm not affraid to die. I know if I were to die tonight I would instantly be with the Lord tonight. My physical body would die, but my soul and spirit will never die and now have Christ to go home to.

Absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

Please don't call that a lie too! If you do, it only shows you've never been born again.
---kathr4453 on 7/23/11


James---Thanks so much for distinguishing between OSAS and Eternal Security! I have always believed in Eternal Security. But the only term I've heard used here is OSAS, which I don't believe in...NOT as you define it.

I know I am eternally secure now. I don't have to wait until the end to know. The Holy Spirit leads me (sometimes forcefully, when needed) to repent when I have sinned. I don't see God as keeping a strict record of all my sins, asking me to keep "short accounts with Him", when He already sent His Son to die for them all..

Hbr. 10:17-18 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. One Sacrifice was enough.
---Donna66 on 7/23/11


Rhonda,

I agree 100% with you. But as I know in my life and possibly you in yours, traditional biblical doctrine can be damaging to learning the bible(not is as some may take this). There are quite a few things I have found I was misinformed about. But by asking questions that arose and searching for answers that were biblically logical not philosophical, I allowed the Father to correct my misunderstandings.
---willa5568 on 7/23/11


Oh death, where is thy sting? Their is none!
*****

there is no sting of death - that LIE contradicts Holy Scripture 1Corin 15:21 For since by man came death

forget Holy Scripture ONE would have to live a delusional life seeing there are morgues cemeteries and funeral homes for the DEAD

people die that is a FACT

Per Holy Scripture the TRUTH IS those IN Christ are ALL resurrected at the LAST day (at Christs COMING) 1Corin 15:51, John 6:54, 1Corin 15:23

ONE cannot reap the reward of being RESURRECTED TO eternal life UNLESS they DIE 1Corin 15:36

there is no VICTORY from death today - Christ has NOT returnned
---Rhonda on 7/23/11


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In Adam all die. When sin entered the world, we are all born in sin. Only IN CHRIST is one given LIFE out of death. That LIFE is given today In Christ alone. We are justified by His Blood and saved by HIS LIFE..His risen life. His risen life in us is eternal. That's what is so remarkable about His death and resurrection. Our identification with Christ in His death and resurrection explained in Romans 6-8 explain what eternal life is all about.

The soul is eternal no matter what, however it is eternally headed to hell. Now, Those who receive HIM, are NOW made alive together with Him.

Neither LIFE OR DEATH can separate us from the Love of God that is in Christ Jesus.

Oh death, where is thy sting? Their is none!
---kathr4453 on 7/23/11


once saved always contradicts Holy Scripture - taught by men NOT Christ

eternal security is NOT alluded to, or even implied in Holy Scripture

Eternal Life is salvation ...a FUTURE promised reward inherited (Mark 10:17, Luke 10:25, Luke 18:18) at the LAST DAY ...Apostles never believed they had eternal life during their physical lives and KNEW it would happen on the LAST DAY Titus 1:2, 3:7, John 6:54, 1Corin 15

eternal life/immortality 1Tim 6:16, 1Corin 15:53-54 is given to those who will rule with Christ on earth ...not in heaven as taught by men

salvation is a promise to be delivered from death on the LAST DAY a GIFT to those who are called to obey
---Rhonda on 7/23/11


"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, no one can snatch them out of my hand. John 10:28-29

Ephesians 4:30 believers are "sealed for the day of redemption." ...not to the day of sinning, apostasy, or disbelief. If eternal security is not true, the promises of eternal life in the Bible would be in error.

Romans 8:38-39, "For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Our eternal security is purchased by Christ, promised by the Father, and sealed by the Holy Spirit.
---kathr4453 on 7/22/11


darlene, it is very difficult to ask a question here...with the limited space and moderator editing. i was once on a forum, where you could write a full thought without limits and then people would respond. it wasn't a blog controlled by one person. anybody could pose a thought or a question, and anybody could respond.

anyway, i guess i got confused because my definition of OSAS starts with the end of delivery and not the beginning.
---aka on 7/21/11


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aka sorry I didn't make the question clear for you. The subject is Eternal Security and I asked does it cover,or is it,ES,the same as OSAS and Eternal Life.
---Darlene_1 on 7/21/11


Once Saved Always Saved is not the same as Eternal Security. BUT, those who are OSAS think they are the same thing.

Eveyone looks to a certain point in time for their security.

OSAS looks to the day they die, when they can look back and see evidence that they obeyed God, and believe their faith was validated. If you remain faithful, you will be found to have genuine faith according to OSAS.

Eternal Security looks to the day Christ died, long before we were born. His sacrifice was once for all, and offered to anyone on the basis of faith in Him. There is only one kind of faith. Either you have it or you don't. Works are not inevitable, and have no bearing on whether or not you have eternal life
---James_L on 7/20/11


//how does one secure Eternal Life?//
So simple, the only way to miss it, is not read it.
1 Cor 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

Man's Problem: SIN (Romans 3:23a)

God's Provision: THE CROSS I Cor. 15:3,4)

God's Gift: SALVATION (Rom. 6:23b)

Man's Responsibility: FAITH (Ephes. 2:8,9)

The Result: PEACE WITH GOD (Rom. 5:1)

The Assurance: SEALED (Ephes. 1:13)



---michael_e on 7/20/11


Not all people mean the same thing by what they say. "Eternal Security" can mean that once you are saved you always will be saved. And if God knows you won't lose your salvation, then you won't (c:

I think certain people think "Eternal Life" means for all eternity, like for all time unending. But I understand that eternal life is the life we have now in God's love which is eternal not just in time but in Heaven's own quality and beauty and personal intimacy with God and each other. So, we enjoy this love's eternal life now while we are living in God's love for all people.

It's like how, I believe, you have God's forgiveness, while you live this forgiveness for others (Mark 11:25) (c:
---Bill_willa6989 on 7/20/11


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I think the key to solving the OSAS dilemma is in understanding that God knows things that we do not.

He knows from the outset whether we are saved or not (from his perspective, we are either saved or not - and that doesn't change).

However, from our own limited perspective, we cannot know this for sure. While the Spirit may assure us of our salvation, an insane person may also be deluded into thinking the same. So if someone "feels" saved, but later turns to evil, it may be that he was never, in fact, saved at all.

So, "once we are saved, we are always saved" (from God's perspective) is always true. But "once we feel saved, we are always saved" (from our perspective) is NOT necessarily true.
---StrongAxe on 7/20/11


darlene, i don't understand the first part of the question. "it" can be a referent Eternal Security or OSAS. The way it is written is leading.

But, as far as Eternal Life, for us, that begins with one day at a time. Once Jesus does "save" at judgement, those will always be Saved.
---aka on 7/20/11


OSAS is code for "once prayed always saved."

Eternal security means we place our faith in Christ, not our own prayer, and our security is in CHRIST, Who is eternal.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/19/11


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