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Does Baptism Gets Salvation

Baptism is as essential to salvation as air is to breathing. Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Do you believe baptism is essential for salvation?

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 ---Rosemary on 7/21/11
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//Jesus is Son of Man because as to His flesh He is man---Warwick on 7/31/11//

Well stated and agreed.
---char on 8/1/11


Willa, you forgot the context. In Luke 32:2 the accusers were lying. This was a deliberate lie. Members of the Sanhedrin had publicly questioned Jesus on this very issue (hoping to discredit Him before the Jews) and He expressly upheld Caesar's right to demand taxes (Luke 20:20-25) also what they said next was a lie ( He Himself is Christ, a King) It was innuendo, implying that He was seditious against Rome, just another untrue charge. So your defense is riddled with lies for Luke 23:2. They sneered at Him, sort of what many here do. You say as them, "But even the rulers with them "Sneered," saying "He saved others, let Him save Himself if He is the Christ, the chosen of God" You also question His deity.
---Mark_V. on 8/1/11


Mark,

They began to accuse him, saying, "We found this man perverting the nation, forbidding paying taxes to Caesar, and saying that he himself is Messiah, a king-Luke 23:2

He saved others. Let him save himself if he is the Christ of God, his chosen one Luke 23:35

For he knew that the chief priests had handed him over because of envy Mark 15:10

Envy: to fret or grieve one's self at the real or supposed superiority of another, and to hate him on that account (Websters)

It was jealousy that provoked them to want to kill him. And if you notice, no where after his arrest will you find them accusing him of saying he was God. But you believe men instead.
---willa5568 on 8/1/11


Willa 2: Jesus in His humaity did not say He was God, He demonstrated He was, and all the unbelievers (pharisees and others) wanted to kill Him why? because they understood Jesus was claiming to be God, yet you who say you believe do not even want to believe that. "If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven" Jesus spoke this very words. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only Begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life" Yet you do not believe Jesus words.
---Mark_V. on 7/31/11


Willa, in John 8:40, Jesus was speaking to him in His humanity. Because they could see Him and touch Him and was visible to them. But as we are told in Matt. 1:18, Mary "was found with child "of the Holy Spirit." And later in (v.20) the angel confirm that "For that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit," and she will bring forth a Son and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins"
John on the other hand was a natural man sent from God to bear witness of the Light, the Messiah and Son of God. John was not the begotten Son of God who was sent by God in eternity past, but a natural man sent from God. For the Father only had One Beggoten Son.
---Mark_V. on 7/31/11




Christian, thank you for your well written comments. However the sceptics here would say you have simply made a statement which you have not backed up.

I endeavoured to show Willa that he is incorrect, and this by Scripture, not just by a statement.
---Warwick on 7/31/11


Willa, Jesus is Son of Man because as to His flesh He is man.

Jesus is also the one and only Son of God as Philippians 2:6 says "being in very nature God." Theologian Charles Ryrie says the Greek behind "nature" means "that which is intrinsic and essential to the thing."

Relevantly "being" is a present tense particlple carrying the idea of Jesus' continued existence as God.

Further He alone shares the titles:Creator, Redeemer, Saviour, the Beginning and the End, etc. Proof they are one and the same person.

He forgives sins and His detractors say "He is blaspheming" as only God can forgive sins (Mark 2:7). But there is no blasphemy as He is God!
---Warwick on 7/31/11


Warwick,

tempt: to test, to make trial of one, put him to proof(Thayer)

Our Lord's appreciation of our infirmities is an experiential one, based upon the fact that He was tempted like we are.(Wuest)

(he could sympathize) with our weaknesses, (since he) has been tempted in every way just as we are, yet without sin>Hebrews 4:15

God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a human being, that he should change his mind.
for God cannot be tempted by evil...>James 1:13

absolutely a contradiction. God does not change but He became a man who could be tempted and even die? You are correct he wasn't an angel, he was a man period, who God gave authority and power to.
---willa5568 on 7/31/11


Mark,

you have told me Jesus came from the Father, that scripture says is his God(John 20:17) and is the only true God according to Jesus(John 17:3) who is God? Your 85% of this truth comes from one book , if not more. You have shown no where that Jesus says plainly, "I am God", but rather use verses that at the most, vaguely appear to say it. You say he is a "Godman" which scripture never says and is a Greek corruption in the Church. Every verse which says Jesus is a man, has a God who is his Father and ours and God raised him from the dead, which are abundant and none debatable, only refer to his human nature. There is one God the Father who is the only true God and this is plainly written.
---willa5568 on 7/31/11


"Does anyone understand everything about the nature of God? No, only that which He has chosen to reveal to us." Warwick

And He has chosen to reveal to us that the One God is a triune God, made up of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. But One God, working together in perfect harmony of the Father's will.

So, Jesus is not the Father but the Son. The Holy Spirit is not the Son or the Father BUT they are One in God! The Father and Holy Spirit did not die for His people, but the Son did. The Son does not regenerate His people but the Holy Spirit does. Yet, they are One in God!

So stop confusing yourself and others and keep it simple.
---christan on 7/31/11




Willa, Hebrews ch. 1 shows angels worship Jesus "the exact representation" of God's being, not an angel who became man, who became an angel, as some say. He is "the same yesterday, today, and forever"-Hebrews 13:8. He had "glory" with God in the beginning before the world began-John 17:5.

However we know Jesus was also Son of Man, as to His body-a contradiction? No because Jesus is fully God, fully man.

Hebrews 2 shows the humanity of Jesus, made a little lower than the angels, flesh and blood, sharing in mans humanity. He who Philippians 2:6 says is "in very nature God" but assumed the "very nature of a servant."
---Warwick on 7/31/11


richardc,


know beyond a doubt that God has made this Jesus...both Lord and Christ-Acts 2:36

Who made Jesus Lord and Christ?

Jesus ...a man clearly attested to you by God with powerful deeds...that God performed among you through him-Act:2:22

Eight times the NT, including Jesus himself, says the Father is Jesus' God. Jesus praying to the Father says "they know you[the Father] the only true God, and Jesus Christ.

Now may God our Father himself and our Lord Jesus... to be blameless before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus

Eph. 5:20( and 1:17 saying-the God of our Lord Jesus Christ)
Galatians 1:4
---willa5568 on 7/31/11


..a man who has told you the truth I heard from God. >John 8:40

A man came, sent from God, whose name was John>John 1:6

John the Baptist came from God to. Was he God the prophet? Jesus was sent, John was sent and we are sent(Just as the Father has sent me, I also send you) John 20:21

All generous giving and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or the slightest hint of change>James 1:17

Notice it says the Father specifically is the origin which applies to Jesus as well(Luke 1:35)

The first man is from the earth, made of dust, the second man is from heaven>1Corinthians 15:48
---willa5568 on 7/31/11


WILLA ----------

DEUTERONOMY 4:39 Know therfore this day,and consider it in thine heart,that the LORD HE IS GOD in heaven above,and the earth beneath, there is none else.

1 CORINTHIANS 1:9 GOD is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his SON JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD,

DEUTERONOMY 6:4 Hear, O Israel, The LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD,
---RICHARDC on 7/31/11


Willa Jesus is not the Father. Who said that?

The Godhead is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. These three persons (not humans) are one God.

People struggle with this as they try to apply human reality and extence to God but this cannot be done. God is pure spirit, not flesh. That is why Jesus was born,(Hebrews 10:5) to give God a body in which to live with man, and to die.

If God had not dwelt fully within the Son of Man, man could not have related to Him as people related, every day, with Jesus.

Does anyone understand everything about the nature of God? No, only that which He has chosen to reveal to us.
---Warwick on 7/31/11


Scott,

1. ''Come to Jehovah's organisation FOR SALVATION'' (The Watchtower, 1/15/83, p. 22)
2. ''Jehovah's using only one organisation today to accomplish his will. To receive everlasting life in the earthly Paradise we MUST identify that organisation and serve God as part of it.'' (The Watchtower, 2/15/83, p. 12)
3. ''Those who are convinced The Watchtower's publishing the opinion or expression of men should not waste time in looking at it at all. Those who believe God uses The Watchtower as a means of communicating to his people, or of calling to his prophecies, should study the Watchtower.'' (The Watchtower, 1/1/ 42, p. 5)

JWs must believe salvation comes only through the WT and God only speaks through that organisation.
---Marc on 7/30/11


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Willa, now you are admitting Jesus Christ came from His Father. You could not get around that. So He is from God. And God the Father did sent Him. Little by little your wall breaks down. You know why? Because you cannot escape the Truth. You can bob and weave, but so much of the Truth, which by the way is Jesus, is there. Now believing is another matter.
---Mark_V. on 7/30/11


"Look, if you want to rely upon man's inacurrate english translations which are proven to be incorrect, then that is your choice to do so. " Eloy

Do you even hear yourself? You're contradicting yourself with your own words.

You saying that the Holy Spirit is not guiding the man who translate the Scriptures from Greek or Hebrew to English or the other languages.

There's only One Truth (and that's Jesus Christ) and many lies. For the fallen man, there's no truth in him until the appointed time of God through the Holy Spirit when he becomes born of the Spirit. And this I tell you, not everybody will be born of the Spirit of God. That's because being born of the Spirit is the will of God and not the man.
---christan on 7/30/11


When you lift up the Son of Man(Daniel 7:13,14), then you will know that I am he, and I do nothing on my own initiative, but I speak just what the Father taught me John 8:28

It is not his words but the Fathers(God) words. Who is Jesus(Deuteronomy 18:15, Acts 3:22, Acts 7:37, John 4:25,26)

If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come from God and am now here. I have not come on my own initiative, but he sent me John 8:42

If I glorify myself, my glory is worthless. The one who glorifies me is my Father, about whom you people say, He is our God.

Does it not say God, Jesus' Father, sent Jesus who they claim to be their Father and God.
---willa5568 on 7/30/11


Willa, here is truth again,
"If God were you Father, you would love Me, "for I proceeded forth and came from God, nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me"
Now where did He come from? His Father. Who sent Him? His Father. You do not understand this. Hear what Jesus then says,
"Why do you not understand My speech? Because "you are not able to listen to My Word"
They could not understand as you, not because you are dumb or not educated, but because you are not able to. So He says, "And if I tell you the Truth why do you not believe Me? He who is of God hears God's words, (His own words) therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God"
---Mark_V. on 7/30/11


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The times of ignorance God overlooked but now commands,all people everywhere to repent, ...he is going to judge the world in righteousness, by a man whom he designated, having provided proof to everyone by raising him from the dead.> Acts 17:30,31

You cannot ignore verses like this to build doctrine. In order to understand what election is you have to know the culture and apply it to the fact that God Does love the World

First of all, then, I urge that requests, prayers, intercessions, and thanks be offered on behalf of all people...Such prayer for all is good and welcomed before God our Savior, since he wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth>1Timothy 2:1,3,4
---willa5568 on 7/30/11


Mark,

...by raising Jesus, as also it is written in the second psalm, You are my Son, today I have fathered you.Acts 13:33

He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give him the throne of his ancestor David...The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore(on account of this) the child to be born will be holy, he will be called the Son of God>Luke 1:32,35

No son of God until he was born. Notice he will be(future tense) and it wasn't until the holy spirit came upon her that the child was said to be holy. Just as Issac(JamesL) he was one of a kind(only begotten).
---willa5568 on 7/29/11


Mark,


In a far-off land the LORD will manifest himself to them.
He will say to them, I have loved you with an everlasting love. That is why I have continued to be faithful to you>Jeremiah 31:3

Everlasting is a love that does not end which ultimately began with Abraham of whom Israel were descendants. This is also attested to by Paul, "concerning the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sake"(Romans 11:28). But you are correct, He has loved the world even before He created it, because man would be created in his image and likeness. This is proven by His sorrow that man had became so evil before the flood. Jesus was sent by the Father to save us, we are sent by him to tell the world.
---willa5568 on 7/29/11


Willa, I wanted to correct my mistake. I should have put "Gave His only begotten Son" The point being that God's Son did not become His Son when He gave Him, but gave Him because He was a Son already. I know you are an honest guy. You don't need revelation to read this, what you do need is faith to believe in the meaning. If God then declares that Jesus is "His own Son" doesn't that tell you that the Son is His Son by nature? His only begotten, and thus His true and proper Son, or do we make Him a liar? John decided that matter for everyone,
"He that does not believe God, has made Him a liar, because he does not believe the record that God gave of His Son"
---Mark_V. on 7/29/11


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christan, truth is only pointless to the fool. Look, if you want to rely upon man's inacurrate english translations which are proven to be incorrect, then that is your choice to do so. But as for me I will relish the pure words from the living God, and I know that the Holy Spirit will increase greatly through his own inspirited words rather than through man's words.
---Eloy on 7/28/11


Willa, your reading this passage from a bias view. But if you were honest, and read it correctly, you would have known what He meant, "I have loved you with an everlasting love" Jer. 31:2). Now read the passage, "For God so loved the World, He gave His only begotten Son," Now add that part. "From everlasting God loved the world and sent His only begotten Son" Now when did He sent His Son? From everlasting. Did the Son become the Son when He was sent? No. He was already His Son. "That whosoever believes in Him, has eternal life."
Who has eternal life? Those who believe and they only. Now, you do not need revelation to know that, but you need revelation to believe it by faith.
---Mark_V. on 7/28/11


christan,

For this is how God loved the world: He gave his unique Son so that everyone who believes(to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in(Thayer)) in him might not be lost but have eternal life...Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of Gods unique Son-John 3:16-18

If this is just the elect receiving compassion then the world is not the word to use.
Matthew 9:36, 14:14, Mark 8:2
He had compassion on these who most cried crucify him.
Mark 10:21 Jesus loves a man who walks away from him.
---willa5568 on 7/28/11


Eloy, pointless of you quoting Scriptures after Scriptures and still do not believe God. You exalt yourself in Greek and Hebrew Scriptures over the Holy Spirit. You tell everyone one they are wrong just because they have no knowledge of the Greek and Hebrew Scriptures.

Where does it say in Scripture that you have to study Greek and Hebrew to have a better understanding of God's Words? Where o foolish man, made of dust!

But I will show you in Scripture that it is the Holy Spirit that teaches, after one is only born of the Spirit by the will of God.

So, stop spewing your PRIDE all over or you will most definitely choke on them. Alas, God does not work His grace on everyone... how glorious is His election of His love in Christ.
---christan on 7/28/11


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christan, "And lead us not into temptation,..." is wrong: "And let us not enter into temptation,...". "Judge not, that you all be not judged." is wrong: "Misjudge not, that you all be not misjudged." "They will take up serpents..." is wrong: "They will kill off serpents..." "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life." is wrong: "For God he so loved the harmony, so as the Son of him, the single-sired he gave, that all in who obey him be not abandoned, but have life eternal.".
---Eloy on 7/28/11


Our baptism today is spiritual. We don't feel it, see it or get wet. It's the Holy Spirit placing us into and identifying us with and in the Body of Christ.

1 Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body,...

This verse tells us, it's the Holy Spirit, not man, doing the baptizing. We are baptized into one body, the body of Christ.

Confusion arises about baptism from failure to follow Gods directions for bible study.

2 Tim 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

When we rightly divide the word of truth we give Israel what belongs to Israel and we give the Body of Christ what belongs to the Body of Christ.
---michael_e on 7/28/11


christan, more mockery from foolish clay? Leave darkness and choose Christ, then your folly will be turned into wisdom, and your mouth will bless rather than self-condemn.
---Eloy on 7/27/11


Eloy, once again you really enjoy flattering yourself with your endless pride of knowing Greek and Hebrew. First of all, I never asked you for anything with regards to the Holy Bible. Jesus told us that we will know them by their fruits. And needless to say, for now, the fruits sprouting from your tree is not from the same tree I'm in.

Willa, I do not know when and where you went off tangent to what I was discussing with you but you are telling me things that is what a Christian is saved by, justification by faith. I do not doubt that one bit at all. All I know is, we were discussing about God's compassion. And I am telling you that God only demonstrates His compassion to only His elect and no one else.
---christan on 7/27/11


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christan, I think you are interested in the truth, or you would not ask it from me. You do not need to burn your English translations of the Bible, but if you are seriously interested in the truth then I suggest that you obtain the English 1560 A.D. Geneva Bible, and also obtain a Greek and Hebrew Interlinear Bible. That way you can compare your common English translations with the Hebrew and Greek and you will be able to get a better understanding of the words from God.
---Eloy on 7/26/11


christan,

I understand what you are saying. The problem though is there are just as many if not more verses that disagree with what you present.

but Israel even though pursuing a law of righteousness did not attain it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but (as if it were possible) by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone-Romans 9:31,32

The point Paul is trying to make is it is not by works(the Law or flesh) that we are are righteous, but by faith.
vs.8--This means it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, rather, the children of promise are counted as descendants.

For Christ is the end of the law, with the result that there is righteousness for everyone who believes-10:4
---willa5568 on 7/26/11


willa, read Romans 9, and you will realize that God declares that He will only show compassion to those whom He had love from eternity and have elected, hence "As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."

His demonstration of compassion explained in Romans 9 pertains to salvation, only the vessel of honor will receive His compassion. The vessel of dishonor will never receive His compassion, hence they were "vessels of wrath fitted to destruction".

"...I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."
---christan on 7/26/11


"...I frequently translate directly from the Greek and Hebrew scriptures, in order to bring accuracy to the common English mistranslations on the market." Eloy

So, we all should burn our English versions of the Scripture because they are "mistranslated", whatever that means in your lingo. Also, those who do not know Greek or Hebrew are doomed for the English versions are inaccurate.

You give too much credit to yourself and deny the Holy Spirit that "the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth", regardless of the language that the Scripture is written in. I rather trust in the promise of Christ about the Holy Spirit than your exaltation of the Greek and Hebrew language.
---christan on 7/26/11


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Nana, and once again I am sharing with you that those who believed in Christ was because they were born of the Spirit. There's order to redemption according to the Scripture.

1. God loved Jacob from eternity.
2. In His love, He chose Jacob in His Son, who died for him.
3. In God's time, He called Jacob and gave Jacob His Spirit and applied faith to him, causing Jacob to believe and repent, and be justified by faith.

As for Esau, God hated him from eternity and was never saved.

Now, apply this order of redemption to God's elect and the condemnation to the reprobates. Only two vessels are created by God Almighty, as taught by Paul, period.
---christan on 7/26/11


"precious worthless "freewill"
"final nail in your "freewill" coffin"
Why the rank language and who is talking of "freewill" except you?
All I proved is that Jesus spoke the same context for belief to his close disciple as to his most radical non disciples. Do you have an issue with Christ and want to take it on me?
---Nana on 7/25/11


Christian, I do not add nor take away from scripture. Instead I frequently translate directly from the Greek and Hebrew scriptures, in order to bring accuracy to the common English mistranslations on the market. The Greek word in Mk.16:16, as well as in other places in the scripture is, pisteyo. pisteyo or pistos, commonly translated believe, is synonymous with peitho, as in Acts 28:24. peitho like pisteyo is commonly translated obey, believe, trust, as in Acts 5:36,37,40+ 28:24+ Mt.27:43+ Gal.5:7+ Hb.13:17.
---Eloy on 7/25/11


christan,

When he saw the crowds, he had compassion on them because they were bewildered and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd-Matthew 9:36(NET)

compassion-to be moved as to one's bowels, hence to be moved with compassion, have compassion (for the bowels were thought to be the seat of love and pity)>Thayer Greek Lexicon

How can Jesus have compassion on these people who were like sheep without a Shepard if he knew most were already destined to parish? Being you believe Jesus to be God, you have him saying, "I know I created you for destruction and did not choose you to be saved but I feel so much compassion for you even though I will show you no mercy."
---willa5568 on 7/25/11


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Nana, using John 10:37,14:11 to justify you precious worthless "freewill", is not even what Christ was teaching. For if that was what Christ taught, He would never have declared in John 3:3,5

"Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

The importance of one being born of the Spirit is taught. And to put that final nail in your "freewill" coffin, John declared,

"Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." John 1:13
---christan on 7/25/11


"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" (KJV)

"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (NIV)

"Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (ASV)

Eloy, may I ask which version is, "whom obeys and is baptized will be saved, but whom not obeys will be condemned." from? It's one thing to quote directly and another to add-on to Scripture, for I cannot find such a quote from Jesus that's similar to yours.
---christan on 7/25/11


Those who believe water baptism is essential for salvation, have a problem agreeing on how it is to be done.
Some sprinkle, some pour. Some immerse two times forward, once backward. Some baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit while others do so in the name of Jesus only. Some baptize infants while others baptize adults only. Some will say that you are not saved unless water baptized, while others say baptism is for a testimony only.

While none of these positions can agree with one another they all disagree with those who refuse water baptism today.

Water baptism belonged to the nation of Israel. It was their door, so to speak, into their kingdom. Water baptism was necessary for their salvation
---michael_e on 7/25/11


"When a sinner belief in Jesus Christ, it's because regeneration has taken place (born of the Spirit)."
christan on 7/25/11

Jesus put it as simple as it is:
To Philip:
John 14:11 "Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake."

To the Jews who took stones against Him:
John 10:37 "If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him."

The same for both, but you rather opinionate otherwise...
---Nana on 7/25/11


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"Regeneration by belief alone is not taught..." Nana They are your words, not mine.

When a sinner belief in Jesus Christ, it's because regeneration has taken place (born of the Spirit).

You'n'I have a big difference in understanding regeneration. You belief that regeneration is caused by the freewill and I believe that unless God chose you before the foundations of the world through election from eternity, you are not going to be regenerated by the Holy Spirit.

Regeneration is a covenant made only by God the Father (who elected), Son (who only died for those the Father elected) and the Holy Spirit (who will only regenerate those whom the Father elected and the Son died for). No more no less. Only God knows.
---christan on 7/25/11


Yes, Jesus commands us to be baptized for salvation, with he himself showing us the way to fulfill all righteousness. Jesus says: "Go all you into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature, whom obeys and is baptized will be saved, but whom not obeys will be condemned. When once waited the God of longsuffering in days of Noah preparing the ark, in being few, that being eight lives were saved by water: then a before type, now baptism saves us, not a putting off of rank skin, but a good conscience up-praying up to God through resurrection of Jesus Christ." Mk.16:15,16+ I Pt.3:20,21.
---Eloy on 7/25/11


"This does not save anybody,Baptize in the Spirit were God changes the person heart, Being born again"
RICHARDC

I see the person commiting and changing his heart rather.
Matthew 3:8 "Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:...".
A person with their heart out of place could\would not bring those fruits.
Luke 8:15 "But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience."
As 1 Peter 3:21-22 declares and insights, "a good conscience toward God" must a man bring.
---Nana on 7/25/11


//Water is a outward sign what Christ did washing away of sin,//
Where is the scripture for this statement?
What sin did Christ have to wash away when He was baptised?
---michael_e on 7/25/11


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Mark 1:7 And this was his message: After me comes the one more powerful than I, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie. I baptize you with water, but he will baptize you with the holy Spirit.

The Bible Tells us about two baptisms, One water, One spirit, Water is a outward sign what Christ did washing away of sin, This does not save anybody,Baptize in the Spirit were God changes the person heart, Being born again, Good example of this is the theif on the cross.He was change by the spirit before he die.
---RICHARDC on 7/24/11


Acts 8:14_17 "Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost."

Regeneration by belief alone is not taught, rather by renewal, commitment and dedication, Romans 12:2, Add
2 Peter 1:4_11
---Nana on 7/24/11


"...none of them had received the Spirit, hence none had been born of the Spirit." Nana

Obviously you don't understand the doctrine of regeneration, though it's taught in Scripture. Scripture says "But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God...", it is a given that those who believed were already born/received the Spirit through regeneration.

For Simon, "thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money." Peter rebuked "...for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.", no regeneration has taken place. The same for those who think salvation can be purchased by "their own freewill to believe God".
---christan on 7/23/11


The order of baptism, water then Spirit is the order of things. Simon 'believed' as written in Acts 8 and he also was baptized as well as all of them as indicated in Acts 8:12., yet none of them had received the Spirit, hence none had been born of the Spirit. Peter and John came to Samaria so as to see that "Samaria had received the word of God. Acts 8:17 is when they received the Holy Ghost, but Simon wanted to purchase it. Just as Peter declared "the answer of a good conscience toward God" was lacking in Simon.
The thief on the cross met "the answer of a good conscience toward God".
---Nana on 7/23/11


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Is baptism essential for salvation, "no" To claim it is means works is being added to grace. According to the Bible, baptism is a testimony of what has happened in a person's life. (Baptism shows that a person has died to self, and is risen to a new life in Christ.)

Romans 3:24 (NASB77)
24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus

Romans 11:6 (NASB77)
6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
---wivv on 7/22/11


Actually Warwick, the JWs have already backflipped re blood tranfusion. They used to allow it.

Maybe their prophetic channel to God was temporally blocked and they couldn't hear God's revelation at that time. Or maybe all the other GOD'S ONLY PROPHET ORGANISATIONS, like the Mormons etc, made the line to God engaged.
---Marc on 7/22/11


According to Scripture,

"But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women." Acts 8:12

The order is believe and then followed by baptism. So, baptism does not save but only when one is "born of the Spirit of God" first, which causes him to believe in God that he then gets baptized, acknowledging that he is saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

Once again, "...and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized." Acts 18:8
---christan on 7/22/11


I believe in baptism "into His death" (Romans 6:3), in the living waters of the Holy Spirit (John 7:37-39).

So, it is not baptism into physical water, but "into His death" that we need > and Jesus Christ's death came before His burial. So, this can not mean burial in physical water.

But if we get baptized in order to confess Jesus, "whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven." (in Matthew 10:32) But people are promoting physical baptism, more than calling attention to Jesus. Jesus is God's Son and the Lord of all, and His shed blood washes away our sins. So I do not worship and glorify a tub of water as being what washes away sins. God bless you!
---Bill_willa6989 on 7/22/11


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Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them (Israel), Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Water baptism was part of Israels salvation
BUT is NOT a part of our salvation today.
Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles, writing in the dispensation of the grace of God said something that Peter and the eleven apostles to Israel could never say when he said,
1 Cor 1:17 Christ sent me not to baptize Peter could never that. Why? Because water baptism was a part of Israels salvation.

There is a baptism for today, revealed to Paul
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism
---michael_e on 7/22/11


1 Peter 3:21-22 "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him."

Water is not the effectual agent but the symbol of it.
Hence:
"Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:"
Acts 8:20 "But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money."
---Nana on 7/22/11


\\rosemary, being born of water is the natural birth and being born of the spirit is spiritual birth\\

You know, the oldest Christian writers ALWAYS understood "born of water" as referring to water baptism.

Only lately, in the last 100 years or so, has this been denied.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/22/11


Interesting Marc.

I find it quite hypocritical that the WTS forbids blood transfusions on the grounds that this amounts to eating blood. I believe calling this eating blood is drawing a long bow, as they say.

But then the WTS allows the eating of meat in which there is blood!

I cannot imagine how anyone could stand by and watch a loved one die because of the lack of a blood transfusion.

I suppose it is quite possible that the WTS will back-flip and allow transfusions, just as they back-flipped on vaccinations and organ transplants.
---Warwick on 7/22/11


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Cluny
You told Mima, Jesus gave the precept for baptism AFTER the Crucifixion and just BEFORE He ascended into heaven.

Mat_28:19-Luk_24:47
Teaching and preaching the word of God to all nations.
Is baptizing, them in the Name!

Parable of the sower:
Mat_13:19-understandeth it not!
Mat_13:23-understandeth it.
Well, the kingdom of heaven is like a man, trying to sow good seed in his field.

The point of Joh_3:5 is he(Christ) is Joh_14:6!
Joh_3:7 So mima, why marvel at Luke_ 23:43?

The point is!
Joh_3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Luk_12:26-Luk_16:10
---TheSeg on 7/22/11


\\If Baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation how then can this verse Luke 23:43 be true? Luke23:43,
"And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."
---mima on 7/21/11\\

mima, Jesus gave the precept for baptism AFTER the Crucifixion and just BEFORE He ascended into heaven.

I've seen no verse in the Bible where He rescinded it. Have you?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/21/11


Some believe that not accepting a blood transfusion will assist in your salvation. For example, 'Does this put God's servants at a disadvantage in comparison with persons who ignore the Bible and take blood transfusions? NO, IT WORKS NO REAL HARDSHIP ON THEM....[after all] If you carefully keep yourselves from these things, you will prosper...If we try to save [a child's life] by breaking God's law, you will lose it.' (The truth that leads to eternal life' p. 168.

A God-inspired or demonically-inspired doctrine?
---Marc on 7/21/11


rosemary, being born of water is the natural birth and being born of the spirit is spiritual birth. My husband was saved but never got baptized before he died. I grant you he is in heaven now. to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
---shira3877 on 7/21/11


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Of course baptism is essential for salvation, but it has nothing to do with water.
---michael_e on 7/21/11


I think it is commanded by God. Whether it is possible to be saved without, I cannot say, but it would be disobeying God unless it was impossible (as for the thief on the cross)
---Peter on 7/21/11


Since Jesus gave the commandment for baptism in His last words before the Ascension (so it didn't apply to the thief on the cross), how can we now say it's optional?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
---Cluny on 7/21/11


If Baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation how then can this verse Luke 23:43 be true? Luke23:43,
"And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."
---mima on 7/21/11


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REPENTENCE from your sins is essential to salvation. John the Baptist preached this before Jesus arrived on the scene.

Repent means to turn away from your sins, confess them, and "go and sin no more."

Then Baptism comes into play.
You can't get baptized if you haven't repented for your sins because you'll just keep sinning if you haven't repented, amen? Make Sense?
---Donna5535 on 7/21/11


No...I don't believe that it is according to scriptures and common sense.
If a person does what Romans 10:9-10 says and never is water baptized will they go to heaven? Yes. It doesn't require grace from God to be baptized, but it does require it to get saved. (Ephesians 2:8-9)

In John 3:3-5 Jesus never mentioned "water baptism". Water in that context is referring to the "word of God".(1Peter 1:23, Ephesians 5:26)
---Rickey on 7/21/11


Yes. Mark 16 v 16.
Mark 16 v 16, Acts 2 v's 37 - 41 Fulfills Matt. 28 v's 19 - 20. Including Matt.24 v 13.
---Lawrence on 7/21/11


The Athenians of Acts 17 always admired the noble qualities of truth, peace, and justice. As a result, they always had a clear conscience.

God's spirit will teach all good listeners/students how to have a clear conscience (Hebrews 9:14 "purify your conscience").

Even when John was baptizing with H2O, it was only a symbolic 'promissory dedication' ceremony, worshipers still used 'books and such' in order to "FORCE" the kingdom into their lives (Matthew 11:12 "and men of violence take it by force").

Don't seek man's H2O, let God's spirit consecrate you as an INNER TEMPLE (1 Corinthians 3:16) of the OUTER TEMPLE (John 2:19) with "LIVING water" ("ONE baptism", Ephesians 4:5).
---more_excellent_way on 7/21/11


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Baptism is NOT for salvation. The Bible says that we are to be baptised AFTER salvation as an outward sign of an inward conversion (Acts 2:38). Salvation is DIFFERENT from baptism and salvation is to come BEFORE baptism (Acts 2:38 - Repentance FIRST, then baptism). Look at the thief on the cross, was he baptised, no he was not, but he was saved when Jesus said "you will be with Me in Paradise". You can be baptised until the fish know you by name, but it is only a bath unless you are saved FIRST.
---Leslie on 7/21/11


Born of water and of Spirit is speaking here of regeneration (salvation), NOT baptism. Regeneration is when the Holy Spirit washes you (with His water) clean of sin when you repent (confess and turn from sin) (Luke 13:3, 1 John 1:9). The Spirit then is the Holy Spirit in you when you put your trust in Jesus Christ by believing and confessing that Jesus Christ died, rose, and is Lord (boss) (Romans 10:9-10). Jesus is saying here that in order to be saved, you MUST repent and believe and confess that He died and rose and is Lord. This has NOTHING to do with baptism.
---Leslie on 7/21/11


Rosemary...your statement is incorrect. It should read:
Faith is as essential to salvation as air is to breathing.Was the theif on the cross baptized?
Did Jesus say in John3:16 you must believe in me and be baptized to inherit eternial life?
---JIM on 7/21/11


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